Thread: anti-enlightenment

I have this very strange yin yang karmic view of the world. On the east you have people saying DETACH and become NOTHING and you'll be enlightened. We can simplify this by saying don't do anything, just be. Being.

Then on the west, you have the western philosophy that says just the opposite - DO SOMETHING. That some how life and existence is pretty meaningless unless you do something with it. And so we have a very goal orientated mentality here. The hippie wants to rebel, the religious man wants to preach, the teenager wants to make love. You can sum up the west by Doing.

I say, the east is wrong. To tell us to become completely detached, to sit and meditate and do nothing, is essentially pointless. Congratulations you've reached nirvanan!! Woo-hoo!! And it's a bloody empty void. But at the same time, if you're just goal orientated - which is attachment - you lose yourself. You lose sight of true meaning and true happiness.

So to me, the answer is neither and both at the same time. Being (non-attachment, experiencing the moment) and Doing (having the passion to create positive change). By doing you transcend your state of being, and by being you transcend doing, I dunno, am I making any sense yet?

I don't think it would be the same thing. The only real similarity is that relative to one another, your attachment to everything is equal.

Originally Posted by juroara

I dunno, am I making any sense yet?

yes, perfect sense. and your post went nice with Under Hooves: http://www.myspace.com/sleeptoday

Some say detatch, others say merge.

But being attached to something can make you dependent. Enlightenment seems to be about liberation. If you needed everything all the time you would suffer quite a bit I would think.

Hmmm.

I believe in that non-attachment is the way. But to fully engage yourself. It is tricky. I believe to commit yourself to the relationship you have with existence, but not to get attached to it. Does that make sense?

A metaphor seems the best way for me to try to get my point across. If you have a child you deeply love, you will be totally in relationship with your child. Yet you will give the child freedom to find her own way, to make her own mistakes and to learn from them. You will support your child to live her life and to follow her dreams, not to fulfill yourunfulfilled desires and your dreams. If you have a boyfriend or a girlfirend whom you are deeply in love with, but want different things out of life, I believe you should let them go to find their happiness.
I think attachment is getting stuck clinging on to energy. Energy wants to flow. Attachment is getting stuck in the mud.
The other extreme is to avoid everything. That also is attachment. But out of fear. In the east they say not to be attached to this world because it is all Maya, an illusion, a dream. The metaphor they use for maya is to mistake a rope in the path for a snake. In India you will see Yogis who have renounced the world and live under a tree meditating and constantly telling themselves that the world is a maya, the world is maya, it is not real, it is not real. So then why are you running? If you know that it is a rope and not a snake then why are you running? Why are you avoiding?
Real non-attachment comes when you see the futility of being attached. real non-attachment comes when you see that the world is a dream. By trying to see the world as a dream by first becoming unattached is a mistake, it happens the other way.
There was a Sadhu in India who renounced the world and all his possessions and his family in order to become a spiritual seeker. He would bath in the river every morning and meditate under the tree all day. One day as he was coming back from the river after his bath he saw another Yogi sitting under the tree. "Hey!" he yelled. "That is MY tree!"

So I think that people confuse non-attachment with being aloof and not caring. Your compassion and relationship with the world should expand as your attachment wanes.

I think the idea of being detached means to free yourself up of meaningless distractions. Becoming attached, on the other hand, is to become fully immersed in this fairy tale, which is no more than an illusion we create around ourselves. A story of fashion and glory and political fame. Distractions.

But I don't always necessarily agree with myself on this. I see the idea of destroying the ego as a very desirable thing, and of developing the ego as sometimes desirable as well. Is it better to become one with everything through getting rid of this idea of "me" as being separate? Or do I somehow strengthen my perception of reality by reinforcing the "me" concept? I exist. I. Me. Forever. I am. I am everything. I assert myself as being a real thing. But is that an illusion that I invent? Hey, am I rambling? Are we rambling? Is the universe rambling? Because I am the universe. I am God. How egotistical of me. (I am not God.)

What is the universe? Can't know this, because [I] do not make distinctions between what anything is. What is "me"? What is "you"?

I can also say that development of the ego allows us to portray the different personalities of One system. If we were all the same through our destruction of the ego, this system reverts to having a high amount of potential experiences and no realized experiences. BUT, destroying the ego in order to focus on this path to some higher experience may be more meaningful. Wait, what does it mean for something to be meaningful?

Congratulations you've reached nirvanan!! Woo-hoo!! And it's a bloody empty void.

Are you judging an experience you've never had? Isn't nirvana supposed to be a state of absolute bliss, and connectedness with all things?

Hrmm, pointless. Meaningful. Pointless. Meaningful.
These distinctions are pointless. But they are also meaningful.

Originally Posted by Myself

If we were all the same through our destruction of the ego, this system reverts to having a high amount of potential experiences and no realized experiences.

AHHH! That isn't true! One can still experience happiness and all of the colorful emotions even without an ego. Why was I saying this? It wouldn't matter if we didn't have names. Couldn't we still kick it and have all the fun that anyone else had? Feel like going to the beach? Want to stay up late LAN-partying with a bunch of friends? Let's write a story together. These don't require us to have names. We'd still know each other. Something still doesn't feel right about this explanation though.

Originally Posted by Invader

Are you judging an experience you've never had? Isn't nirvana supposed to be a state of absolute bliss, and connectedness with all things?

I speak in different languages

Nirvana to me like all things is just a word. On one hand you have individuals who claim it means to be connected to all things. On the other hand, you also have individuals who also claims it means to be detached from all things. The limitations of words creates a confusion, and there is a very real negative image of the word Nirvana. And there are even some buddhist texts when translated into english have used the word NOTHING and NOTHINGNESS when describing Nirvana. Maybe this word has a deeper meaning in its native language, but not so much here in the west

I'm not really complaining about anything, I'm just 'using' this negative image that makes people question the whole point of enlightenment to begin with. Just as there is a very real negative image of the buddha sitting and meditating away from the world 'doing nothing' as the world suffers. I know people who really feel this way!

I was just trying to say that I think eastern religions focus on being. Because the universe loves balance, this means western religions focus on doing! Because these two have become polarized into yin and yang, it's only natural that those in the west sometimes see the eastern practice as a practice of doing nothing. Take meditation for example, what do most people think you're doing? NOTHING!

At the same time, the west has been viewed as nothing but 'meaningless activity', with highly ritualized even mechanized lifestyles.

But I feel, if you have a yin and yang, if you've got these two opposites, such as attachment and non-attachment, and being and doing, then you have duality! And where ever you have duality you can bet, neither one is the whole answer, because neither one exists independently of itself!

Take for example a buddha in nirvana. On one hand we say, this buddha is non-attached and he is connected to all things. So, he's Being. Yet, at the very same time, because he is connected to all things, he is Doing! Because we live in a very active universe and he is Being One with All that are Doing.

Or we can imagine that everything in this universe is completely non-attached, and is simply Being, right down to that atoms. What would happen? All motion would stop. Every 'atom', every point of consciousness would simply be experiencing the moment, except there isn't anything to experience because no one is doing anything to experience!

All that you would experience is pure consciousness!

Well if the Hindu religion has any grain of truth, even Brahma found that boring after a while

Which is why there is Being, but there is also expression of Being - which is all that is created. So here we are in this strange bubble. Is the goal to become completely non-attached? Or is non-attachment, instead of a goal, a tool to a greater expression of Being?


THE UNIVERSE IS RAMBLING

It seems as though you should explain how you perceive attachment and detachment.

To be attached to all things is a bit of nonsense (thats not to mean that people don't actually try for it though). What exactly does "all things" entail? Are you attached to all things as they are now? As they were when you decided to be attached to them? As they ever will be? To attach oneself to the totality of 'things' is an effort to 'stop the world' in its tracks. Even if one were to accomplish this, they still would be forever detaching themselves from some things. Those things that are yet to be, the 'thing' that is continued experience, the thing that is evolution of a system. There is no thing to attach oneself to without arising and passing away.

Originally Posted by nerve

or rather, reaching enlightenment by the exact opposite way of buddhism. you're supposed to become completely detached, but what if instead you became attached to everything? isn't that more or less the same thing?

How exactly can you be attached to everything? That would be quite horrible. Suffering arises from attachment. If anything, one can generalize that one is already attached to too much in the world. That is basically the human condition.

What Buddha taught was the "middle way", which I'm sure means non-attachment. Non-attachment is neither attachment nor detachment. It's about neither avoiding things nor clinging to them, because the Truth about them takes no position. It is more "being with" them. Acceptance, witnessing (rather than experiencing) and allowing are key traits or key words of non-attachment. Generally:

• Living with more attachment leads to more suffering, because it means living with more values, desires and possessions. All of these and their worldly associations are vulnerable to loss because they're transitory.
• More detachment leads to more emptiness, and eventually "void." I think this is known as the pathway of negation. Nothingness is not the ultimate reality, however.
• Non-attachment leads to enlightenment - which is truly non-dualistic.

Originally Posted by really

How exactly can you be attached to everything? That would be quite horrible. Suffering arises from attachment. If anything, one can generalize that one is already attached to too much in the world. That is basically the human condition.

What Buddha taught was the "middle way", which I'm sure means non-attachment. Non-attachment is neither attachment nor detachment. It's about neither avoiding things nor clinging to them, because the Truth about them takes no position. It is more "being with" them. Acceptance, witnessing (rather than experiencing) and allowing are key traits or key words of non-attachment. Generally:

• Living with more attachment leads to more suffering, because it means living with more values, desires and possessions. All of these and their worldly associations are vulnerable to loss because they're transitory.
• More detachment leads to more emptiness, and eventually "void." I think this is known as the pathway of negation. Nothingness is not the ultimate reality, however.
• Non-attachment leads to enlightenment - which is truly non-dualistic.

Very clearly said!!! The middle way is the way out of duality. Detachment and attachment are duality. It is easy to misinterpret the Buddha to think he meant DE-tachment.

Nirvana literally means to blow out. I have heard it described as blowing out a candle, or as in exhaling. The Buddha described things negatively. He was dealing with Hindus, remember. the Hindus want to be one with God. they want to realize their true self, which is God. The Buddha saw that this lead to egotism and delusion. The Buddha saw that people were trying to become God and instead were just becoming 'very big people'. So the Buddha denied God. Hindus believe in the true self which is one with God. The Buddha denies the self also. He called it Anatma: "No-self". So you have a No-self.
I think he was avoiding defining things so that we didn't create mental concepts to believe in.
He said what Nirvana is NOT. He didn't say what it is. And how can you say what it is? Impossible. A Buddha is bound to be misunderstood.
Buddha said that everything is "empty of any inherent independent existence." Everything is dependent on everything else. Everything is changing into everything else. Everything is energy changing form. We eat food. Food becomes our body and becomes shit. We become food for something else. Mountains crumble to the sea. Stars are born and die. The Universe expands and contracts. So you are not what you think you are. You are a part of the Universe.

Spoiler for Here is the Song of MahMudra, which means Universal Orgasm.:

by Tilopa

Mahamudra is beyond all words and symbols,
But for you, Naropa, earnest and loyal, must this be said.

The Void needs no reliance; Mahamudra rests on naught.
Without making an effort, but remaining natural,
One can break the yoke thus gaining liberation.

If one looks for naught when staring into space;
If with the mind one then observes the mind;
One destroys distinctions and reaches Buddhahood.

The clouds that wander through the sky have no roots, no home,
Nor do the distinctive thoughts floating through the mind.
Once the Self-mind is seen, Discrimination stops.

In space, shapes and colors form
But neither by black nor white is space tinged.
From the Self-mind all things emerge;
The Mind by virtues and by vices is not stained.

The darkness of ages cannot shroud the glowing sun;
The long eons of Samsara ne'er can hide the Mind's brilliant light.

Though words are spoken to explain the Void, the Void as such can
never be expressed. Though we say "the Mind is a bright light,
" it is beyond all words and symbols. Although the Mind is void
in essence, all things it embraces and contains.

Do naught with the body but relax;
Shut firm the mouth and silent remain;
Empty your mind and think of naught.
Like a hollow bamboo rest at ease your body.
Giving not nor taking, put your mind at rest.
Mahamudra is like a mind that clings to naught.
Thus practicing, in time you will reach Buddhahood.


The practice of Mantra and Perfections, instructions in the Sutras and
Precepts, and teaching from the Schools and Scriptures will not bring
realization of the Innate Truth. For if the mind when filled with some
desire should seek a goal, it only hides the Light.

One who keeps the Tantric Precepts yet discriminates, betrays the
vows of Awakening,

Cease all activity; abandon all desire; let thoughts rise and fall as they
will like the ocean waves.

One who never harms the Non-abiding nor the Principles of non-distinction,
upholds the Tantric Precepts.

He who abandons craving and clings not to this or that,
Perceives the real meaning given in the Scriptures.

In Mahamudra all one's sins are burned; in Mahamudra one is released from
the prison of this world. This is the Dharma's supreme torch. Those who
disbelieve it are fools who ever wallow in misery and sorrow.

To strive for liberation one should rely on a Guru. When your mind receives
the Guru's blessing emancipation is at hand.

Alas, all things in this world are meaningless; they are but sorrow's seeds.
Small teachings lead to acts. One should only follow teachings that are great.

To transcend duality is the Kingly View; to conquer distractions is the
Royal Practice; the Path of No-practice is the Way of the Buddhas. 0ne who
treads that Path reaches Buddhahood.

Transient is this world; like phantoms and dreams,
Substance it has none. Grasp not the world nor your kin;
Cut the strings of lust and hatred; meditate in woods and mountains.
If without effort you remain loosely in the "natural state,"
soon Mahamudra you will win and attain the Non-attainment.

Cut the root of the tree and the leaves will wither;
cut the root of your mind and Samsara falls.

The light of any lamp dispels in a moment the darkness of long eons;
The strong light of the mind in but a flash will burn the veil of ignorance.

Whoever clings to mind sees not the truth of what's beyond the mind.
Whoever strives to practice Dharma finds not the truth of Beyond-practice.
One should cut cleanly through the root of the mind and stare naked.
One should thus break away from all distinctions and remain at ease.

One should not give and take but remain natural, for Mahamudra is beyond
all acceptance and rejection.

Since the consciousness is not born, no one can obstruct it or soil it;
Staying in the "Unborn" realm all appearances will dissolve into the
ultimate Dharma.

All self-will and pride will vanish into naught.
The supreme Understanding transcends all this and that.
The supreme Action embraces great resourcefulness without attachment.
The supreme Accomplishment is to realize immanence without hope.

At first a yogi feels his mind is tumbling like a waterfall;
In mid-course, like the Ganges, it flows on slow and gentle;
In the end, it is a great vast ocean,
Where the lights of Child and Mother merge in one.

Lo & behold the brilliant diverse divine talking monkeys swimming in the seal of chaos. Conversing. Dispersing. Attachment to non-attachment or detachment to non-attachment. All happening in the now the present moment that everything in eternity shares sharing left or write now, right?

I love our diversity, heart & brilliance.

OM GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASOMGATE BODHI SVAHA!
(free translation) We're gone we're gone so far fucking gone & we're never coming back he he he
(literally)Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone utterly beyond, Enlightenment hail!
http://www.wildmind.org/mantras/figures/gategate

Originally Posted by Hijo de la Luna

Lo & behold the brilliant diverse divine talking monkeys swimming in the seal of chaos. Conversing. Dispersing. Attachment to non-attachment or detachment to non-attachment. All happening in the now the present moment that everything in eternity shares sharing left or write now, right?

I love our diversity, heart & brilliance.

OM GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASOMGATE BODHI SVAHA!
(free translation) We're gone we're gone so far fucking gone & we're never coming back he he he
(literally)Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone utterly beyond, Enlightenment hail!
http://www.wildmind.org/mantras/figures/gategate

Are you drunk?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Are you drunk?

I lol'd.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Very clearly said!!! The middle way is the way out of duality. Detachment and attachment are duality. It is easy to misinterpret the Buddha to think he meant DE-tachment.

Nirvana literally means to blow out. I have heard it described as blowing out a candle, or as in exhaling. The Buddha described things negatively. He was dealing with Hindus, remember. the Hindus want to be one with God. they want to realize their true self, which is God. The Buddha saw that this lead to egotism and delusion. The Buddha saw that people were trying to become God and instead were just becoming 'very big people'. So the Buddha denied God. Hindus believe in the true self which is one with God. The Buddha denies the self also. He called it Anatma: "No-self". So you have a No-self.
I think he was avoiding defining things so that we didn't create mental concepts to believe in.
He said what Nirvana is NOT. He didn't say what it is. And how can you say what it is? Impossible. A Buddha is bound to be misunderstood.
Buddha said that everything is "empty of any inherent independent existence." Everything is dependent on everything else. Everything is changing into everything else. Everything is energy changing form. We eat food. Food becomes our body and becomes shit. We become food for something else. Mountains crumble to the sea. Stars are born and die. The Universe expands and contracts. So you are not what you think you are. You are a part of the Universe.

Spoiler for Here is the Song of MahMudra, which means Universal Orgasm.:

by Tilopa

Mahamudra is beyond all words and symbols,
But for you, Naropa, earnest and loyal, must this be said.

The Void needs no reliance; Mahamudra rests on naught.
Without making an effort, but remaining natural,
One can break the yoke thus gaining liberation.

If one looks for naught when staring into space;
If with the mind one then observes the mind;
One destroys distinctions and reaches Buddhahood.

The clouds that wander through the sky have no roots, no home,
Nor do the distinctive thoughts floating through the mind.
Once the Self-mind is seen, Discrimination stops.

In space, shapes and colors form
But neither by black nor white is space tinged.
From the Self-mind all things emerge;
The Mind by virtues and by vices is not stained.

The darkness of ages cannot shroud the glowing sun;
The long eons of Samsara ne'er can hide the Mind's brilliant light.

Though words are spoken to explain the Void, the Void as such can
never be expressed. Though we say "the Mind is a bright light,
" it is beyond all words and symbols. Although the Mind is void
in essence, all things it embraces and contains.

Do naught with the body but relax;
Shut firm the mouth and silent remain;
Empty your mind and think of naught.
Like a hollow bamboo rest at ease your body.
Giving not nor taking, put your mind at rest.
Mahamudra is like a mind that clings to naught.
Thus practicing, in time you will reach Buddhahood.


The practice of Mantra and Perfections, instructions in the Sutras and
Precepts, and teaching from the Schools and Scriptures will not bring
realization of the Innate Truth. For if the mind when filled with some
desire should seek a goal, it only hides the Light.

One who keeps the Tantric Precepts yet discriminates, betrays the
vows of Awakening,

Cease all activity; abandon all desire; let thoughts rise and fall as they
will like the ocean waves.

One who never harms the Non-abiding nor the Principles of non-distinction,
upholds the Tantric Precepts.

He who abandons craving and clings not to this or that,
Perceives the real meaning given in the Scriptures.

In Mahamudra all one's sins are burned; in Mahamudra one is released from
the prison of this world. This is the Dharma's supreme torch. Those who
disbelieve it are fools who ever wallow in misery and sorrow.

To strive for liberation one should rely on a Guru. When your mind receives
the Guru's blessing emancipation is at hand.

Alas, all things in this world are meaningless; they are but sorrow's seeds.
Small teachings lead to acts. One should only follow teachings that are great.

To transcend duality is the Kingly View; to conquer distractions is the
Royal Practice; the Path of No-practice is the Way of the Buddhas. 0ne who
treads that Path reaches Buddhahood.

Transient is this world; like phantoms and dreams,
Substance it has none. Grasp not the world nor your kin;
Cut the strings of lust and hatred; meditate in woods and mountains.
If without effort you remain loosely in the "natural state,"
soon Mahamudra you will win and attain the Non-attainment.

Cut the root of the tree and the leaves will wither;
cut the root of your mind and Samsara falls.

The light of any lamp dispels in a moment the darkness of long eons;
The strong light of the mind in but a flash will burn the veil of ignorance.

Whoever clings to mind sees not the truth of what's beyond the mind.
Whoever strives to practice Dharma finds not the truth of Beyond-practice.
One should cut cleanly through the root of the mind and stare naked.
One should thus break away from all distinctions and remain at ease.

One should not give and take but remain natural, for Mahamudra is beyond
all acceptance and rejection.

Since the consciousness is not born, no one can obstruct it or soil it;
Staying in the "Unborn" realm all appearances will dissolve into the
ultimate Dharma.

All self-will and pride will vanish into naught.
The supreme Understanding transcends all this and that.
The supreme Action embraces great resourcefulness without attachment.
The supreme Accomplishment is to realize immanence without hope.

At first a yogi feels his mind is tumbling like a waterfall;
In mid-course, like the Ganges, it flows on slow and gentle;
In the end, it is a great vast ocean,
Where the lights of Child and Mother merge in one.

Nice post, I also love that poem/song. Is that from a book? I guess I'll just Google "Tilopa."