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    Thread: Your stance towards Islam

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      Extreme Procrastinator Paraknight's Avatar
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      Your stance towards Islam

      What is your stance towards Islam and Muslims? Just out of general curiosity. Let's keep this objective. If possible, back your opinions up with reasons.


      Edit:

      I will personally walk over to the local mosque coming Friday, and ask a scholar or Imam on controversial quotes before responding. I have heard most of these already but just so I don't screw up on a response, I'll go anyway.
      Last edited by Paraknight; 04-27-2010 at 12:37 AM.

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      Emotionally unsatisfied. Sandform's Avatar
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      I have no problem with Islam, as long as the followers ignore the parts of the Quran that makes them do evil or asinine things. However, I do have a problem with even moderates who ignore the evils done by extremists. It is staggering how quiet moderates are over things like the current South Park insinuations of death to the creators.

      I do think people ought to have a valid reason to believe something, and I see no valid reasons for believing the Quran is a valid source of morality or factual information.

      If you follow a religion but don't allow it to hurt other people I see no reason for me to care about you doing so. Of course I would still like to have a conversation with you about why you hold your beliefs and attempt to get you to use reason rather than faith to come to conclusions. As far as I'm concerned this type of mentality is only damaging to the individual, and even then at this point it isn't so damaging as to become something I need vehemently be against. Unless of course they don't condemn death threats over stupid things, at which point they are contributing to the problem.
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      Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”

      Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

      Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

      Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”

      Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.”

      Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.”

      Tabari IX:42 “We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized.”

      Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’”

      Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

      Qur’an 7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”

      Ishaq:510 “When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, ‘O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”

      Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer [Prayer of Fear] near Khaybar when it was still dark. He said, ‘Allahu-Akbar!’ [Allah is Greatest] Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a hostile nation to fight, then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.’ Then the inhabitants came out running on their roads. The Prophet had their men killed; their children and woman were taken as captives.”

      Bukhari:V9B87N127 “The Prophet said, ‘I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with terror.’”

      Ishaq:517 “Khaybar was stormed by the Apostle’s squadron, fully armed, powerful and strong. It brought certain humiliation with Muslim men in its midst. We attacked and they met their doom. Muhammad conquered the Jews in fighting that day as they opened their eyes to our dust.”

      Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”

      Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their children and woman taken captive.”
      You didn't look hard enough.

      Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

      Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


      And in the hadith:

      Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'

      And similar verses about fighting in the Quran:

      Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

      Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

      Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

      Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

      Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
      The problem is that there are those who choose better morals by which to follow the Quran, but there are also those who are fanatics, lunatics, and extremists (IN EVERY RELIGION) that choose read the text to be a direct objective word of their god commanding the very words "spoken".

      It's these extremists that misinterpret the religious dogma and commit atrocities against their fellow men and women in the name of of their dogma....

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      Just as silly as all the other little Abrahamic religions.

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      All religion = bad. Islam is no different.

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      Extreme Procrastinator Paraknight's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sandform View Post
      I have no problem with Islam, as long as the followers ignore the parts of the Quran that makes them do evil or asinine things. However, I do have a problem with even moderates who ignore the evils done by extremists. It is staggering how quiet moderates are over things like the current South Park insinuations of death to the creators.

      I do think people ought to have a valid reason to believe something, and I see no valid reasons for believing the Quran is a valid source of morality or factual information.

      If you follow a religion but don't allow it to hurt other people I see no reason for me to care about you doing so. Of course I would still like to have a conversation with you about why you hold your beliefs and attempt to get you to use reason rather than faith to come to conclusions. As far as I'm concerned this type of mentality is only damaging to the individual, and even then at this point it isn't so damaging as to become something I need vehemently be against. Unless of course they don't condemn death threats over stupid things, at which point they are contributing to the problem.
      Very well. I absolutely agree. There is nothing in the Quran that commands Muslims to do evil or asinine things to non-Muslims however. I doubt it would have this many followers if it did. After all, we as humans have a certain level of morality and sense of justice.

      The Qur'an repeatedly emphasizes that defensive war -- fighting to protect oneself against invading enemies -- is the only kind of combat sanctioned (2:190 - 191). In numerous other examples, it teaches that the use of force should be a last resort (2:192, 4:90); that normal relations between peoples, nations and states, whether Muslim or not, should be peaceful (49:13); that necessary wars must be limited in time and space (2:190); that maximum effort must be applied at all times to advance the cause of peace (10:25); that whatever means are undertaken to work for peace during a conflict (such as mediation and arbitration) must be attempted over and over again until resolution is achieved (8:61); that freedom of religion must be granted to every one (2:256), and so on.

      These verses have often been taken out of context, misused or misunderstood by both Muslims and non-Muslims, intentionally or not, for political reasons or otherwise. For answers, look at Islam and not the Muslims.

      Chapter 109, verse 6 English translation:
      Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
      Btw, the "moderates" aren't quite; you simply don't hear them. Do you think they enjoy having their religion tainted by the acts or threats of a few maniacs? Your world is controlled by the media. You hear what you're "meant" to hear. And it's not just the "moderates", but any true Muslims should, and would, speak out.

      Since your points are sort of included in MementoMori's post, I'll address those tomorrow (it's almost 2am right now). And MementoMori, I have read and questioned every one of your quotes and even by just skimming them, I already notice some things mistranslated or out of context.


      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      Just as silly as all the other little Abrahamic religions.
      Quote Originally Posted by ninja9578 View Post
      All religion = bad. Islam is no different.
      Perfectly valid views.


      Just a note: By defending Islam, I will not try to impose any views on anybody, but by countering your arguments, possible induce you to rethink your opinions. Ignorance towards Islam is epically huge and if there is one thing I can't stand, it's ignorance.
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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      Just as silly as all the other little Abrahamic religions.
      Same. I have about as much respect for Mohammed as I do the Bible God and most of the Bible characters. Which is practically none. When I deconverted from Christianity I sought help from a board for ex-Christians, which had a sister board of ex-Muslims. I had previously held more respect for the religion as a whole until I learned how horrible it is from them.


      Regarding Muslims, depends on the person. A nice person is a nice person regardless of their private beliefs. I've found that with all Abrahamic faiths, the less the people adhere to the insane, inhumane rules of their scriptures, generally the more decent they are. Just as some countries in the Middle East are barbaric, if the West suddenly went back to the laws of the Old Testament, things would be just as horrible.

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      Quote Originally Posted by A Roxxor View Post
      Just as silly as all the other little Abrahamic religions.
      Yep. Not very fond of religion period I'm afraid. I think religion is dangerous but even more dangerous in the hands of primitive minds (humans), who would use it to justify physically, verbally, mentally, spiritually and/or emotionally abusive acts and wills against another human being.
      Things are not as they seem

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      Quote Originally Posted by Paraknight View Post
      What is your stance towards Islam and Muslims? Just out of general curiosity. Let's keep this objective. If possible, back your opinions up with reasons.


      Edit:

      I will personally walk over to the local mosque coming Friday, and ask a scholar or Imam on controversial quotes before responding. I have heard most of these already but just so I don't screw up on a response, I'll go anyway.
      I really do hate to shoot down an entire religion, but Islam is perhaps the only religion that I have no respect for.

      The Quran advocates the slaughter of all infidels.

      Christianity = "No false idols", but it doesn't advocate killing, despite what such greedy radicals/profiteers as Pope Urban and the Crusaders said.

      Judaism = Persecuted Jesus. Other than that, they've pretty much been on the defending end.

      Hindu = Doesn't even recognize other religions.

      Buddhism = Advocates nonviolence.

      Similarly, their peace-loving founder was a conqueror. While Christianity has killed way too many people, Islam has pretty much expanded solely on conquest, other than the modern day and some missionary efforts in Southeast Asia/Africa.

      In conclusion, I have no racism towards Muslims. I do not mind them as a people, and wouldn't do something like picket a mosque. They're one of the few religions, though, that I outright dislike though; the rest, I'm pretty much neutral to.

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      Quote Originally Posted by UsernameTheRand View Post
      Christianity = "No false idols", but it doesn't advocate killing, despite what such greedy radicals/profiteers as Pope Urban and the Crusaders said.
      Failllllll

      He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 22:20

      If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

      And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mark 6:11

      etc.

      Here are some Koran quotes you've probably never stumbled upon.

      "God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable." Chapter 60, Verse 8

      "Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden (paradise) whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous - Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity or in adversity, who restrain (their) anger and pardon (all) men - for God loves those who do good." Chapter 3, Verses 133-134

      "And what will explain to you what the steep path is? It is the freeing of a (slave) from bondage; or the giving of food in a day of famine to an orphan relative, or to a needy in distress. Then will he be of those who believe, enjoin fortitude and encourage kindness and compassion." Chapter 90, Verses 12-17

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      I don't know enough about Islam to comment. But from what I see, it is no different than the other Abrahamic religions. Judaism is founded on the concept that the Jewish race are the only people God loves. All others go to hell. Or do they? I haven't found one Jew who knows what happens after they die according to their own religion.

      It seems to me that, like all Abrahamic religions, Islam is a bunch of primitive superstitious tribal beliefs around a core of common morality and goodwill. I rejoice in people who follow whatever belief they choose if it helps them be truly moral and motivated by an open heart. I respect people who love God and see the Divine in everyone. These people are found in every religion. I love that the Quran says to give to charity and help out others less fortunate and I love Muslim economics.

      I love people who try to emulate Christ and to see Christ in others.
      Hindus don't recognize other religions because their religion encompasses all religiousness. Other religions are just a sect of Hinduism for them.

      Buddhism is the most respectable religion to me. I think that it might be the only religion that conquers with logic rather than the sword. When it conquers, it turns nations of warmongering savages into peaceful farmers and monks.

      I respect atheists who try to liberate themselves and others from illogical dogmatic belief systems. I don't like atheists who murder peaceful defenseless religious people and commit genocide on them.

      Religions have always been founded around a charismatic powerful enlightened person by simple people. These peaceful leaders always spoke up against the hypocrisy and dogma of the dominant religion of the day, trying to bring people back to the true meaning and point of religion by reforming it. The Buddha tried to reform Hinduism, Jesus tried to reform Judaism, Mohammed tried to reform Judaism. They have all tried to revive the Spirit of the Law in those that know only the letter of the law.

      Isn't it funny that Christians think that Aleister Crowly was Satan even though he said the same thing as Jesus?
      Jesus says: Love is a law onto itself
      Aleister Crowly: Love is the whole of the law

      In all these religions there have been small secret groups who kept the true meaning alive. These groups across the board get along with their counterparts in other religions. For example: The Sufis, The Gnostics, The Essenes, the Yogis, etc. These groups are basically the same group, with the same non-dogmatic practices and beliefs. The only difference is that they try to fit-in with their dominant regional dogmatic religion in order to not be killed. A Sufi and a Gnostic and a Yogi and an Essene will always recognize each other as brothers.

      In fact, these groups have studied with each other in the past and formed interesting hybrids. In Northern Afghanistan there have been Sufi/Buddhist groups and in India there are Sufi/Yogi groups and in the Himalayas there are Hindu/Buddhist Yogis and in Ethiopia and the Middle East there are/have been Jewish/Christian/Muslim groups. In China there have been Taoist/Buddhist groups like Shaolin. All these people recognize that they are studying the same truth. And that is the essence of mysticism that is the kernel of truth in every religion, including Islam.

      And all these groups have been persecuted by the Dominant religion and been driven underground and/or massacred. Except Buddhists haven't done that to anybody, and Taoists neither.

      Taoists developed Kung Fu to be able to fight back against repression. But isn't it ironic that the most logical non-dogmatic even atheistic religion: Buddhism, has been genocided against by atheists. I think more Tibetans got killed during China's cultural revolution than Jews did during the Holocaust. Hitler was trying to claim that the Germans were the master race, so logically he couldn't have the Jews around claiming that they were the master race.

      But the Tibetans never made any claim. And the Tibetans were the most peaceful people. So before we start bashing religions let us remember that one of the greatest injustice in the history of the planet was done at the hands of atheists in the name of freeing people from religion and modernizing them by killing them.

      My feeling on Islam is the same as my feeling on any other religion. It is intolerance that I am ashamed of.

      I don't know what to do about intolerance. If we tolerate intolerance, that doesn't work. If we do not tolerate intolerance, we become reactive and perpetuate the cycle. I think the answer is to take a big big breath, count to ten, and educate ourselves and rid ourselves of all ignorance possible, try to understand why people are intolerant, than try to educate them also by being an example of tolerance. Like Jesus says: turn the other cheek.

      I wonder what would've happened if America turned the other cheek after 9/11? There would've been a lot less death and killing. A lot less muslim orphans to grow up to become terrorists. And the terrorists wouldn't have gotten the reaction that they wanted and they would've realized that terrorism doesn't work. They would've lost a big excuse for recruitment. Rather we showed them that it does work.

      Gandhi won independence of India from England completely by non-violence and turning the other cheek. Martin Luther King furthered the standing of African Americans and the Civil Rights movement in America completely with nonviolence. Both got assassinated, but not before the truth was spoken. I would like to credit John Lennon a little for the anti-war movement during Vietnam, and he was killed. Why be a suicide bomber when peace is more effective even if you die anyway? We need examples of tolerance. We need to somehow tolerate intolerance so much that intolerance cannot remain ignorant.

      One of the reasons that some Muslims are so intolerant is because they feel that they are victims of the Western world's foreign policy. Many of them feel the need to defend their faith. That is why Obama had to tell them: We have nothing against Islam, we are not at War with Islam. So we here on this site have to look at ourselves and see how our thoughts and feelings for others actually might put them on the offensive in order to be defensive. Like in dream control, if we dream that someone is our enemy, they will become our enemy. If we love our DCs, they cannot be our enemies so easily.

      We are all one humanity, brothers and sisters of Earth regardless of what each other believe.
      Last edited by Dannon Oneironaut; 04-27-2010 at 05:57 AM.

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      I dislike Islam as much as I dislike other religions. However, one major problem I think with Islam is it's relative lack of maturity.

      For example, there are many parts of Christianity which are now disregarded except for the nutcases, whereas even so-called "moderate" Muslims appear to take many aspects seriously, such as death for deconverting.

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      In itself I just find it silly, although in some cases I find it repugnant, though no more so than most other religions

      I don't hold Islam itself responsible for the actions of others. I think people are responsible for the actions of people and blaming an abstract concept is a little odd.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ninja9578 View Post
      All religion = bad. Islam is no different.
      Utter crap. Your post has earned my Mark of Ignorance.

      Spartiate: Thank you for bringing me some examples. I've only ever finished a children's Bible, although I started reading a "standard" one.

      Well, I disagree with much of the Bible. I consider Sodomy to be unnatural, but not immoral. I don't believe that God will ultimately slay and damn all the heathens; that just doesn't fit with "kind and loving".

      And you can find just as many (well, probably more) "good" verses in the Bible as you can the Quran. The Quran also has lines about killing ALL enemies....
      Perhaps I just need to study both holy books more, but it seems that both religions have their problems, but Islam is still more violent than Christianity; the reason is, there are some Christian terrorists (Northern Ireland, for example), but PLENTY of Islamic terrorists. Al-Qaeda, the Pakistani groups in India, Hamas, Palestine, etc.

      In the end, I would have no problem with Islam if the verses about killing the Jews and such were omitted. As is, I'm a Christian who doesn't believe everything the Bible says, or takes it metaphorically in general. Perhaps the verses you offered up were metaphors for something else?

      Well, good day. And please use a different word from "fail"; it makes you sound unintelligent.

      As for Dannon Oneironaut:
      I agree; I may not be Buddhist, but I have a great respect for Buddhism.

      I disagree with 9/11, though. It is true that 4,000+ of our men have died there. It is true that stirred the population up more, and killed civilians by accident.

      In the end, though, the results are worth it.
      We lost THREE THOUSAND+ people in 9/11, a SINGLE DAY. We lost FOUR THOUSAND+ within SEVERAL YEARS of war.
      And the reward is that we have the terrorist groups distracted and are slowly eradicating them.
      FIFTY THOUSAND+ men died fighting Chinese and North Vietnamese in the Vietnam War. That's NOTHING compared to Iraq and Afghanistan, two wars that we're actually fighting for our own defense!

      If people just stand by and let other people kill them, the world will eventually be populated by only killers.

      NOTE: I have a brother in law serving in Iraq, and my father served in Vietnam.
      Last edited by UsernameTheRand; 04-27-2010 at 01:00 PM.

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      Islam is not so bad, man. The VAST majority of these people stay in their little villages, grow their poppy, sell it, get old, and die. They just want to be left alone.

      So, as a whole, I have absolutely no problem with Islam. They're really nice people with a great sense of humor. Im serious.
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      Quote Originally Posted by UsernameTheRand View Post
      I disagree with 9/11, though. It is true that 4,000+ of our men have died there.
      I stopped reading there.
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      Quote Originally Posted by ninja9578 View Post
      All religion = bad. Islam is no different.
      I think it's about time for humanity to realize the absurdity of religion and stop making their lives revolve around these non-existing beings and fantastic ideas...it's dangerous. people interperet things different ways and then oh, suddenly it's ok to kill many, many people. Xei: you must admit it is partly because of the existence of the religion...people willing to do...I'll just say "criminal" things, may not be willing to take it to the extreme they do within a religion. I mean, are you serious? don't you think it'd be easier for someone to take a life if they believe their "god" told them to? what about...I forget the term...group psychology? I dunno. basically, religion is crap. useless at best (for humanity as a whole; it works fine for people in power who want to control the feeble-minded masses!), dangerous at worse.


      Ignorant bliss is an oxymoron; but so is miserable truth.

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      Xei
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      Yes but my point is it is that person's fault for being so idiotic in the first place, not the religion's as such.

      'I killed 'im because it was written by the spaghetti monster'... who's fault is that?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      'I killed 'im because it was written by the spaghetti monster'... who's fault is that?
      whoever wrote that the spaghetti monster said to kill, and think a large majority of people are smart enough to decide for themselves morally. As equally is the one who killed...
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      Ahaha, Mori, pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. Xei, I'm kindof scratching my head here because - well, I know I'm not the most articulate person ever, but - it's like you didn't read what I said...?


      Ignorant bliss is an oxymoron; but so is miserable truth.

    21. #21
      The Anti-Member spockman's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut View Post
      I don't know enough about Islam to comment. But from what I see, it is no different than the other Abrahamic religions. Judaism is founded on the concept that the Jewish race are the only people God loves. All others go to hell. Or do they? I haven't found one Jew who knows what happens after they die according to their own religion.

      It depends on the sect. Some sects don't even believe in an afterlife. And it isn't that God doesn't love non-Jews. Just that they were chosen as his bastion of righteousness. That is, the people whose customs allow at least one culture to be upright.

      And most people who think that God tells them to kill people are most likely psychotic or schizophrenic, anyway. Fault lies on mental instability then, not religion. (Unless they think that their religion advocates murder in general.)
      Last edited by spockman; 04-27-2010 at 05:58 PM.
      Paul is Dead




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      In the absence of religion evil people will turn to other methods of manipulation. There are two problems: people who are willing to commit or manipulate others into committing acts of evil, and people who are too weak to stand up to authority when authority tells them to harm someone else.

      Religion is just the dressing. Granted, it's a very effective dressing, but the religion itself is just a tool. It's not religion's fault that people are easily manipulated - it's people's fault. They have only themselves to blame for giving in to authority.

      Not that I'm saying we shouldn't criticize religion's failings...just that we need to always remember the real root of the problem.
      GavinGill likes this.

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      bleak... nerve's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by OuroborosEterna View Post
      ...remember the real root of the problem.

      which is?


      Ignorant bliss is an oxymoron; but so is miserable truth.

    24. #24
      Ad absurdum Achievements:
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      Quote Originally Posted by UsernameTheRand View Post
      Spartiate: Thank you for bringing me some examples. I've only ever finished a children's Bible, although I started reading a "standard" one.

      Well, I disagree with much of the Bible. I consider Sodomy to be unnatural, but not immoral. I don't believe that God will ultimately slay and damn all the heathens; that just doesn't fit with "kind and loving".
      God suffers from mood swings in the Bible.

      And you can find just as many (well, probably more) "good" verses in the Bible as you can the Quran. The Quran also has lines about killing ALL enemies....
      Perhaps I just need to study both holy books more, but it seems that both religions have their problems, but Islam is still more violent than Christianity; the reason is, there are some Christian terrorists (Northern Ireland, for example), but PLENTY of Islamic terrorists. Al-Qaeda, the Pakistani groups in India, Hamas, Palestine, etc.
      In my opinion these guys are more disgusting than any islamic terrorist organization. There are plenty of groups like this in Africa, not that the media goes out of its way to depict them all.

      In the end, I would have no problem with Islam if the verses about killing the Jews and such were omitted. As is, I'm a Christian who doesn't believe everything the Bible says, or takes it metaphorically in general. Perhaps the verses you offered up were metaphors for something else?
      And yet all verses in the Koran are to be taken literally? How many muslims do you personally know? I have have friends from Algeria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. Some are more religious than others, but none of them have ever tried to stone me. What you have to realize is that the vast majority of muslims are normal people and not maniacs.

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      Quote Originally Posted by nerve View Post
      which is?
      Individuals with malicious intent.

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