Thread: What's religion for?

Many years ago, man would look at the sky, and wonder how the stars and moon got there. He looked at a storm, and wonder why the lightning looked that way. He said that a supernatural force did it, and called the force God. God was the answer to a lot of those questions, and religion was there to answer those questions.

Why do so many people assume that man just arbitrarily invented God? How does a wild human with no culture what so ever all of a sudden say "God did it!". They need to experience something to make them believe that there is an all powerful conscious being.

Originally Posted by juroara

Why do so many people assume that man just arbitrarily invented God? How does a wild human with no culture what so ever all of a sudden say "God did it!". They need to experience something to make them believe that there is an all powerful conscious being.

They did experience something. They experienced themselves next to nature. All you need to "suddenly say - God did it!" is to gain some sort of philosophical awareness, next to the one we get inherently. I personally see the idea of god, like many other concepts, as something that came from an ignorant and therefore possibly inherently faulty premise. So when a "wild man" as you call him, saw himself having free willl, the power of choice, felt and comprehended his own existence, he created the precursor to god. When you have this whispy, floaty thing we call the soul and you see, by yourself, how it controls the "lifeless, soulless" body and objects around it, you start thinking. All you have to do then is put this idea into practice and extrapolate it onto all aspects of nature you percieve. Being actually ignorant of nature, the wild dude looked around to see where the "bigger stronger" whispy floaty soul could be, the soul that runs things like he runs things. And then you get spirits, totems, holy mountains, angry storms, seas... it's only a matter of time before somebody starts judging other "inhabitants" of nature and comparing them to humans. Obviously noticing his supperiority, he must be the god's favourite! In fact, humans are so awesome, that they are most likely made in gods image! And then you get Ra, Thor, Mithra, God, etc.

That's one way of it happening. Nobody knows for sure, on any level we look at it. Of course, other possibilities are aliens or that gods actually exist... Since none have been proven, a natural way seems the only possible way, if we decide to look at it scientifically. Anything that isn't real is fantasy. Unless you decide your own reality is more real than reality of course.

Why do so many people assume that man just arbitrarily invented God? How does a wild human with no culture what so ever all of a sudden say "God did it!". They need to experience something to make them believe that there is an all powerful conscious being.

He saw the sky, and the magnificant lightning, and thought that someone made it as it was so magnificant.

Originally Posted by juroara

Why do so many people assume that man just arbitrarily invented God? How does a wild human with no culture what so ever all of a sudden say "God did it!". They need to experience something to make them believe that there is an all powerful conscious being.

They assume God is arbitrary out of reason, typically. But in the end they are still assuming.

Jesus wasn't lying. Buddha wasn't talking trash either. The great religions and the realized beings have had a profound influence on mankind. There are still great spiritual teachers to this day. I wonder if people see the validity in this, if they have noticed it at all?


"Research into the facts surrounding religion has resulted in probably the world's most prestigious and scholarly literature. Most investigations, however, have been primarily historically rather than spiritually oriented, resulting in great attention to archeology and documentation of historic events that, although interesting, are often irrelevant as compared to the essence and foundation of truth revealed by the core teachings.

The great religions arose out of the teachings of their founders - the great masters, avatars, and spiritual geniuses of all time. Their essential truths later often became obscured by preoccupation with ethnic, geographic, and cultural observances that are extraneous to the thrust of the teachings themselves and diversionary as well. However, at the same time, they present a cultural historic context with implications as to the meanings conveyed as well as their languaging. Because much of spiritual teaching is subtle and meanings are implied by slight changes of expressions or gestures, unfortunately, that kind of information has been lost and, therefore, verbatim statements are sometimes equivocal."

- Dr. David R. Hawkins, Truth vs. Falsehood

Originally Posted by hgld1234

Many years ago, man would look at the sky, and wonder how the stars and moon got there. He looked at a storm, and wonder why the lightning looked that way. He said that a supernatural force did it, and called the force God. God was the answer to a lot of those questions, and religion was there to answer those questions.

This is the function of mythology. Mythology is a part of religion, but there is a difference.

The wondering sparked the religion. Mythology was there as well, but religion was born when man looked at the world and thought it was too good to not be created. THEN he made the creation stories, explaining why everything was there.

You could say that early science and early religion started together. It was only when science became more advanced (and religion did not follow) that they became separate.

The function of religion is as an art that expresses our most ideal untamed dreams of truth that arise in the deepest wells of our heart, like lava spewing from a volcano. At first the lava flows hot and fast, turning everything into fire and more lava. But inevitably it cools and slows down enough for us to think about it, but then it has hardened and taken the form of dogma. Then it is a useless barren wasteland. Every once in a while an airborne pyroclastic sails through the air and lands nearby, showing us the real formless essence of this brittle lava rock, and reminding us of our dreams and showing us how to be guided by them to look up at the top of the mountain! It is still erupting!

The function of religion really is to know the formless essence that all form comes from and returns to. They call it "Spirit" or "God" or "Bramhan" or "Purusha" or "Turiya" or "Dharmakaya" etc.
The function of religion is to dissolve all our false boundaries and limitations and realize that we are all one with the whole Universe and that we are made of Stardust and in fact our world, our bodies, our hearts, our clothes, our ghetto scenes, our war machines, our lovers, our families, our enemies were once a infinitely small dimensionless point (an idea of God) that exploded like a popcorn kernel into what we are now.

But people forget the true meaning and function of religion, they argue about the form of lava rocks, they get hung up on words and language and argue that the word Dharmakaya doesn't mean space, that the four elements are superstitions instead of a description of the four states of matter. They argue that there is no fifth state of matter, even though Einstein proved it. People have a cultural bias, not understanding that truth is not just a modern discovery. But truth is lost and rediscovered and actually is always the frontier.

The function of religion is to apply the principles of absolute impersonal truth to human relationships in a way that is meaningful and harmonious for the uplifting and exaltation of the individual and the community, like a great song that keeps us all dancing together as one forever. Of course the song will get repetitive and boring if there are no changes in it and people will lose interest and stop dancing together as one and go outside and start fighting over bruised macho egos and drunk girls while the bouncers keep them apart until the cops come. So the music has to change all the time, taking each person on a journey. Touching on each possible emotion and mood, liberating each one in ecstatic surrender to the beat.

The function of religion is as an art that expresses our most ideal untamed dreams of truth that arise in the deepest wells of our heart, like lava spewing from a volcano. At first the lava flows hot and fast, turning everything into fire and more lava. But inevitably it cools and slows down enough for us to think about it, but then it has hardened and taken the form of dogma. Then it is a useless barren wasteland. Every once in a while an airborne pyroclastic sails through the air and lands nearby, showing us the real formless essence of this brittle lava rock, and reminding us of our dreams and showing us how to be guided by them to look up at the top of the mountain! It is still erupting!

I am like this guy --->

The function of religion really is to know the formless essence that all form comes from and returns to. They call it "Spirit" or "God" or "Bramhan" or "Purusha" or "Turiya" or "Dharmakaya" etc.
The function of religion is to dissolve all our false boundaries and limitations and realize that we are all one with the whole Universe and that we are made of Stardust and in fact our world, our bodies, our hearts, our clothes, our ghetto scenes, our war machines, our lovers, our families, our enemies were once a infinitely small dimensionless point (an idea of God) that exploded like a popcorn kernel into what we are now.

Religion has several uses:

Answers unanswered questions.
Aid to find truth.
As a means of control.

However, if there is one Truth, surely there must be one religion? Or has god not given us the truth?

I think that to find Happiness, someone must find God. And when they have found God, they will not be protected from ups and downs of life, but instead have an inner happiness that is beyond material.

A false God will not create happiness, or will only create fake happiness.

But that is my belief, not the purpous of religion.

But people forget the true meaning and function of religion, they argue about the form of lava rocks, they get hung up on words and language and argue that the word Dharmakaya doesn't mean space, that the four elements are superstitions instead of a description of the four states of matter. They argue that there is no fifth state of matter, even though Einstein proved it. People have a cultural bias, not understanding that truth is not just a modern discovery. But truth is lost and rediscovered and actually is always the frontier.

I am hung up on the words and language of these quotes and am like this guy .

And Einstein only predicted the fifth state of matter. It was only proved recently, and word has not gotton out in a book-for-normal-people form.
People can only believe stuff they have heard. This for everything, religion included. How will people know about hild gald meu unless someone told them about it?

There's no such thing as hild gald meu; I just made it up.

And when people argue about form of lava rocks, they are looking for the truth. If I told people about the dilghti monster, (which dosen't exist, but I didn't tell them that) they may believe it until someone brings up that it dosen't exist. Then they argue, and this may release the truth about the monster. If no-one questions anything, where will we be? Afraid of the Naughty Boy Bogyman?

The function of religion is to apply the principles of absolute impersonal truth to human relationships in a way that is meaningful and harmonious for the uplifting and exaltation of the individual and the community, like a great song that keeps us all dancing together as one forever. Of course the song will get repetitive and boring if there are no changes in it and people will lose interest and stop dancing together as one and go outside and start fighting over bruised macho egos and drunk girls while the bouncers keep them apart until the cops come. So the music has to change all the time, taking each person on a journey. Touching on each possible emotion and mood, liberating each one in ecstatic surrender to the beat.

I am like this guy here ---> .

I'm just not convinced that people needed an explanation and imagined an all powerful deity. That's like telling me the creatures that I imagine for my artwork, I must also therefore by default believe they have an objective reality. Its one thing to imagine a possibility, it's another to believe that possibility already exists. Who was the first person to imagine God, and what made them believe in their own imagination?

Thousands of years ago, just like today, people experienced what we call the supernatural. People saw things that to their understanding seemed conscious and liberated from a physical body as we understand it. This could have been the basis for the belief of souls, and a realm that souls live in. Even the experience of being abducted by other-wordly beings is ancient! Today it's aliens. Thousands of years ago, they were gods and demons.

If you look at near death experiences, people have experienced a being/consciousness that they call God! Why would the near death experience be only a modern day phenomenon only? NDEs actually share a lot in common with the tibetan book of the dead, which is ancient. How could the two be so similar and come from different cultures and different time periods? This makes me believe that the NDE is truly a unique human experience, whether you believe its a hallucination or divine. And that this experience can be experienced by any human of any culture of any time period. You just have to nearly die and live to tell about it.

That might have been a lot harder in ancient times. Good luck only nearly dying. But it's not impossible that some lucky ancient people nearly died and lived to tell about their vivid experience. Considering how ancient the NDE is, and how other-wordly the experience is, this experience to me is the foundation of the belief of God(s), divine worlds and heavenly beings. Even reincarnation. Many church going christians testify they were told reincarnation was real when they had NDEs, something their church wasn't teaching!

Ancient people probably didn't even need the NDE to experience something that we would call divine. It's very possible that dreams were enough to spark both the belief of God(s), the soul and a place for souls to live in. (or mushrooms!) Imagine an ancient lucid dreamer! There is no scientist to tell him his dream is all in his head. And why would he believe his dream is in all in his head? When the lucid dreamer can experience the dream as real as waking reality, and some claim, even more real than waking reality. This dream reality still influences the spiritual beliefs of many. No doubt it influenced ancient people.

Our experiences are the foundations of religion - not just imagining up something to satisfy curiosity. We satisfy our curiosity all the damn time with sci-fi movies. It takes something else to take your imagination seriously. It takes an experience of something outside of your normal waking experience.

Because we have always placed our faith in others, you only need a tiny fraction of the population to experience something outside the norm, to influence the rest of the people. But can the rest of the population truly understand without experiencing themselves? That's the problem with religion.

Originally Posted by juroara

Who was the first person to imagine God, and what made them believe in their own imagination?

Interesting question. This reminds me of an anecdote I read by Carl Jung from when he was studying the religious beliefs of tribal societies. He was living with a certain African tribe at the time and he was participating in their religious ceremonies so that he could better understand why they performed those ceremonies. They had one in particular that baffled him. Every morning before sunrise, the people got up and stepped outside. They would place their hands in front of their mouths and either spit or blow on their hands until the sun rose. As the sun came up they would then turn their hands toward the sun. When Jung asked them why they did it, they were clueless. Not even the highest ranking members of the tribe knew. It had started long ago for a reason now unknown, and they unquestioningly followed with this tradition into modern times. Carl Jung, through numerous similar studies, found that most, if not all religions arose unconsciously. I forget what his explanation was for this particular ceremony, but he found that it did serve a specific psychological purpose. The idea is that conscioussness is evolving, or more accurately, growing from generation to generation. As you go back in time, our ancestors become increasingly unconscious of their actions and the world around them. All religion is the projection of the inner psychic makeup of human beings onto the outside world. That's how things like the sun, certain animals, or certain symbols become divine. There was no single man who, one day thousands of years ago, consciously decided to believe in God. All religion is unconscious at its root.

A very interesting read on this subject is "Modern Man in Search of a Soul" by Carl Jung. In it Carl Jung discusses the growing conscioussness of humans and why he thinks we don't need religion anymore, at least not in the same way our ancestors did. Modern, educated men clinging to ancient religions based on mythology is a major contributing cause of nerosis and other psychological problems according to Jung. Our increasing conscioussness and awareness of the universe around us can no longer be adequately explained by ancient religions, even though we may consciously want them to. If science can explain something that a religion can't, or perhaps explain it better, it creates a conflict. We may consciously choose to be religious, but our unconscious knows when we lie to ourselves. Those repressed beliefs will eventually reveal themselves, usually in an unpleasant manner.
(That doesn't mean humans don't need spirituality in some form. Spirituality and organized religion are separate.)

Also, near death experiences may be evidence of the divine for a tribal man, but it doesn't determine the symbols and the mythology of the religion. They may just take it as an affirmation of their belief since a near death experience, if considered to be divine in origin, can be interpreted in an infinite number of ways.

The major religions - those founded through Divinity, are not comparable to those more primitive religions such as those of Greek gods/mythology. They are very much reflections of mans unconsciousness because they denote fear and punishment, and project it onto a supposed god(s). On the other hand, the major religions such as Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism have not been formed out of unconscious beliefs, but it is certain that there are countless misinterpretations and influences from mans unconscious that have distorted the original truth, specifically when talking about what religion means to the typical human being. Do you wonder how many people are actually worshiping God instead of worshiping religion?

Man has no power to invent a timeless truth, but he has the potential to realize it and to grow toward it. If he thinks it is going to send him to hell if he is bad, if he thinks it is an enemy who couldn't care less about you, or a leader to whom we must sacrifice bloody and violent deaths, these are formed out of unconscious beliefs and instinctual influences.

Originally Posted by hgld1234

Or has god not given us the truth?

Not even god can give you truth, you must find it for yourself.

Originally Posted by hgld1234

I am like this guy here ---> .

It is apparent.

@ Caprisun: Good post!

The function of religion is so the heart may know the truth, and one may orient one's life from that.

True, I mean religion differently than most do. I do not mean organized religion or a doctrine of beliefs and moral codes and laws to follow. But the answering of the call of the Divine.

Religion is usually the doctrine of beliefs, as you put it. Manily because the universal truth is unknown, and everyone has a different idea of what the Truth is.

But why is this? Wouldn't a God want us to know if he exists, and the way to worship him? What if all the major religions are wrong?

Or is the Truth hidden forever, and we are searching in vain? But why is this?

Originally Posted by hgld1234

But why is this? Wouldn't a God want us to know if he exists, and the way to worship him? What if all the major religions are wrong?

Or is the Truth hidden forever, and we are searching in vain? But why is this?

We wouldn't and don't know if "he" exist, or what he is and why he'd do things. Wondering if he'd let us all know he existed is ultimately futile, because there are an infinite number of things that could be happening. For example Christians would say that he wants to be worshipped through faith.

What if they are all wrong? It's the same deal. According to logic 99.999...% should be wrong, if there is one true god. But of course, logic apparently doesn't have to be followed in the realm of the supernatural. So we're back again, back in my previous paragraph - An infinite number of ways it could be unfolding.

If the search is in vain is a personal question. Some don't bother to search at all. For me, it being hidden for ever is not an incredibly important possibility. For one, I wouldn't know if it's unkowable untill I knew everything. So you never know whether it's unknowable or whether you just don't know enough. I can't see myself not searching, so doing it is a part of my personality.

Originally Posted by hgld1234

Religion is usually the doctrine of beliefs, as you put it. Manily because the universal truth is unknown, and everyone has a different idea of what the Truth is.

But why is this? Wouldn't a God want us to know if he exists, and the way to worship him? What if all the major religions are wrong?

You talking about the dictum of right vs wrong. The modern religions were not created out of an idea or fantasy, so how can they be vulnerable? Why do they all have so much in common, and persistently to this day? At the heart of the wisdom, you could trust your life with it.

Or is the Truth hidden forever, and we are searching in vain? But why is this?

From the above, this kind of goes without saying, but do you think that man has chosen to deny the truth, or perhaps is he innocently unaware of it?

The part of religion which is organized into doctrines, dogmas, moral codes, etc. function as a cultural meme that promotes people withing the culture to live a basic moral life. Everywhere you go, the people who belong to this level of religion are basically the same. They are "good" people, they try to do the right thing, they take care of their families, they will help out a stranger in need. They tend to believe that their own religion is the only one. This is true of all religions. This part is basically organic and springs from the subconscious of the people. This encourages faith.

Then there is the priest class of religions. The function of this area of religion is to train "experts" on the doctrines, dogmas, moral codes, etc. that keep the religion going through the generations. This is true for all religions. They are the ones who organize the subconscious of the people, for better or worse. Politics and religion are very dangerous because of this. The priests and the masses go together. The priests are afraid of the mystical heart of religion, because that is where the real heart of religion is, and it is uncontrollable. That is why psychedelic drugs are illegal, especially ones that cause visionary experiences and that spiritual seekers use, like peyote and mushrooms, etc...

Then there is the heart of religion, the mystical aspect. The people interested in this aspect of religion see the oneness of all religions. One usually doesn't bother fulfilling dogmas and thus runs the danger of heresy. If one is living in a Christian country one becomes a Gnostic or maybe a monk. If in a Muslim country one becomes a Sufi. If in a Hindu country one becomes a Yogi. Etc... But the mystics are neither Christian, Muslim, or Hindu... The function of this is to gain knowledge of the truth and embody it in your life and relationships. But it goes beyond this life. The function is actualization of the individual and of all humanity. This does not spring from the subconscious. This is found only in lucidity, in awake consciousness, and takes a commitment of all one's energy to develop and cultivate consciousness. Along the way to total consciousness one has many revelations and visionary experiences. These experiences and the people that have them are the ones that inspire new religions in the first place, like Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Mohammed, various cult leaders and gurus, etc...

I think if we talk about the purpose of religion we should talk about the whole thing, not just a part of it.

As far as truth goes, truth is endless. We are always finding it, it is not hidden, but it is never ending. We will need to be searching forever. Truth is too big for any one religion.

Religion is like a plant. There are many parts: the roots, the stems and leaves, and the flowers, and the fruit. Each part has a function. The roots is the common consciousness of the people. The leaves are the many different religions and sects, The stem is the current of the lineage, the flower is realization, the fruit is "God", liberation, salvation, heaven, nirvana, truth, etc...

An ordinary person is a seed. Most people go their whole life as a seed. A seed is pure potential, but not actualized. That urge to actualize is in all of us, that is the motivation for our ambition in whatever area of life we search to conquer, whether career, skills, etc. But mysticism is the sprouting of the seed. But the seed has to die, its shell needs to crack, before it becomes a plant. The plant flowers only when there is an abundance of energy. If the tree doesn't have enough water, it dies down and all the life goes into the roots and when conditions are right it will sprout again.

Originally Posted by hgld1234

But why is this? Wouldn't a God want us to know if he exists, and the way to worship him? What if all the major religions are wrong?

Or is the Truth hidden forever, and we are searching in vain? But why is this?

For God to appear before man, this would mean that God has a physical being that exists in a fixed location and time that is separate from the rest of the universe - in other words - the old man in the sky

But if you trace the belief of God further and further back into history, all the way to our first religion - animism - God becomes something that could never present Godself to a human, anymore than a human can present itself to a cell within the body

I guess you could say our ancient religions started out as abstract, then slowly we tried to define the abstract more and more until we boxed it up. Our science seems to be coming from the other end. It started with the box - with a universe as a finite mechanical machine, and slowly over time it's become more and more abstract!

What are you talking about? God already came!
God came onto Earth as a man (Jesus H. Christ) and told us how to worship him. All you have to do is accept the Lord Jesus H. Christ into your heart as your personal saviour and you will live forever in heaven.

For God to appear before man, this would mean that God has a physical being that exists in a fixed location and time that is separate from the rest of the universe - in other words - the old man in the sky

Or he comes as Jesus! Or as you! And as me!

I can't tell if I am being facetious or not.

Religion was designed to explain things that primitive people couldn't understand, as well as controlling vast amounts of people. If a king declared that he was chosen by a higher power and that they should obey a set of rules, he would need less body guards and less police.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Religion was designed to explain things that primitive people couldn't understand, as well as controlling vast amounts of people. If a king declared that he was chosen by a higher power and that they should obey a set of rules, he would need less body guards and less police.

Couldn't explain that clearer .

Originally Posted by hgld1234

Many years ago, man would look at the sky, and wonder how the stars and moon got there. He looked at a storm, and wonder why the lightning looked that way. He said that a supernatural force did it, and called the force God. God was the answer to a lot of those questions, and religion was there to answer those questions.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Religion was designed to explain things that primitive people couldn't understand, as well as controlling vast amounts of people. If a king declared that he was chosen by a higher power and that they should obey a set of rules, he would need less body guards and less police.

What's fascinating about this approach is that you're telling yourselves a just-so story in order to dismiss religion as just-so stories, creating a recursive loop that simultaneously supports and discredits your position. It's true that people sometimes use religious narratives and moral teachings as an excuse not to look more deeply into a subject, though even this unsophisticated, near unconscious use of religion operates to some degree as the Dalai Lama said: to help us tame our mental state, overcome our negativities and perfect our inner potential. Regardless, most religious people engage much more deeply with the teachings of their faith at least some of the time, and most religious teachings have more depth than their surface narratives, making the above caricatures of religious origins merely an evasion of real analysis.

Yes, in fact the oldest surviving religion on Earth would be Hinduism, which its real name is Sanatana Dharma, was very very much more in depth than that caricature. It functions as more than just an explanation for unknown phenomena. It includes all search for truth, it also has the same function as science. It developed a very sophisticated study of time, estimating the age of the universe as near the same age that modern science estimates, as well as the age of the earth. It has a sophisticated study of nutrition, medicine and health. It is the study of truth, and that is its function. Deities and such originally were personifications of impersonal forces and principles of nature, only among the peasants was it a superstitious belief system. Taoism also is a study of the efficiency and harmony of Nature. The taoists invented kites and hang-gliders to and kung fu martial arts by observing the "Tao". The principles of the Tao have very practical applications including government, combat, farming, sex, energy cultivation, and in fact it is applicable to all aspects of life. And the pure Tao has no deities or other "superstitious" anthropomorphic representations. Taoism also evolved a sophisticated nutrition and herbal system. The abilities of Taoist martial artists, including Bruce Lee, corroborate the applicabilities of the study of the Tao. Pure religion is a study of truth among the initiates, among the common people it is something to have faith in, just as scientists study truth, and among the common people we have faith in science and take scientists by their word. Just as it would be foolish to judge science by observing some hillbilly's (mis)understanding of it, it is foolish to judge religion by the uninitiate's (mis)understanding of it. Unfortunately for religion, the masses are kept in the dark of the real significance of religion and dogma encouraged so that they can be easily controlled for political purposes.

And not all religions actually studies truth as in depth as others. For example, the Abrahamic religions are more a collection of primitive tribal beliefs where at best study of truth reached its pinnacle in the truth of love as told in the stories of Jesus. The sects that actually were more scientific were persecuted and didn't survive. Mathematics and geometry became very sophisticated in Greek and Muslim cultures. But you have to dig through so much dogma to find any truth, and if it is there it is written in code.

The Greeks are to thank for taking the study of truth outside of religion. This was a turning point in the Western world. On the one hand it purified science and evolved the scientific method, but on the other hand it took the truth out of religion, making religion only subjective, and science objective. Before that, there was no division between subjective and objective from the point of view of spirituality. This division, although very very useful and utilitarian for science, is a human conception, and wasn't applicable for original spirituality and religious studies. The mistake of religion in the West was to disown science out of spite, thus disowning most of the truth from its own heart and relegating itself to the realm of blind faith in an archaic belief system that cannot evolve with the times. It is amazing that it has lasted so long as just a virtually empty shell of its true purpose. The mistake of science was to deny that which lies outside its realm of study. Humanity needs Truth, but not faith in dogma. But science cannot address the truth of ALL human experience, only the testable and repeatable objectivity of truth. And humans also need to connect with truth subjectively, because truth is found both in the subjective and the objective and we are subjective creatures and the quality of life we live is due to the evolution of our subjectivities that make life worth living. No rationalist can truly exorcise the truth of subjectivity from his being, he can only deny it.

Blah blah blah, not my most thought out and eloquent oration.