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It would have to be double-blind; the receivers can't know "oh, donor A is giving menthol tablets, and donor B is giving sugar pills." For a true double-blind study, they can't know either what they are receiving or what they are expecting, really. If a test client knew he had a sugar pill, he could very easily expect to have no results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzarin
I'm well aware of this, but I'm not the one who publicly brought up the placebos. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Mindraker
There's really no need to go straight into a double blind study when there's not yet a substantial amount of claims of menthol's effect on dreams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindraker
Besides, given that all participants are on the DV forum, they'd have to self-medicate -- of course, one could make two drinks: one with peppermint extract, and another with peppermint artificial flavouring, and then randomly choose one to drink before bed to rule out placebo. However, you can't trust that someone is going to do this, and if we're going to be objective about this, then you can't trust people's reports either. Too easy to fabricate. There's not enough participants to minimise the effect of fabricated reports.
So I wouldn't worry about this being all strict and objectively measured. It simply can't given the circumstances and nature of results.
Yeah, sometimes I can be blind. It's old age. How much tea are you 'aving tonight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzarin
After realizing that I'm going to have to wait until my laptop works again to make a spread sheet, I just did a quick scan. Keep in mind that this is conservative, as I included ones that were counted as failed attempts, and a few didn't really explain the dream contents (with the assumption that they were non-sexual, to be as fair as possible). This count left me with 9 incidences of sexual themes, vs 23 incidences total. This is talking about nights in general.... That is to say, for example, the four you had that one night count as 1 incident. Honestly, I think that's pretty good, myself. >w<Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Interesting, but aren't around 4 days worth from me or what? Actually... mine came about after cessation of menthol ingestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzarin
Bah, I can't remember.
I'm not sure if I'll be going for the tea tonight yet, though I might try the candies again lol. I'm trying to be conservative with my use of the tea. To be honest, the side effect list from it kind of makes me nervous. >w< I did used to be a bit of a hypochondriac after all, but I don't feel quite as bad about eating the peppermint patties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
I want to say that they came from me, you, littlezoe, RobStar, and Thena. I think that was it.... Also, keep in mind that there were positive emotional effects aside from sexual effects noted in some of those others, like Kaomea's happy dreams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Oh yes. With me, I woke up naked. And then further on, I consumed a whole pack and had perceptual distortions and minor disconnection. Then right after that 'massive' amount, no longer consuming any, the sexual dreams came on full throttle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzarin
I'll just wait until I get the peppermint tea before I report consistently. I was quite erratic before. :lol: But, side effects you say... you mean what RobStar and others have posted or some official source?
Yeah, you didn't exactly start out in a mundane fashion. :chuckle: I'm wondering about the post-dose sexual dreams as well, like I mentioned before.... At some point, I think everyone who is dosing constantly should take a break (like they should anyway, since we're treading in unknown waters here) and see how their dreams are effected for a week or two (at the most) afterward. That'll help us stack up the effects against regular dreams again, and potentially show if the effects do stick around for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Mainly what was posted here in the thread. It's nothing I would actually caution others against though, aside from extended high-dose use. I just have kind of some anxieties against taking things every single day now, the same reason I didn't take the cough drops every night.... I already did that once with lots of drugs and it went terribly wrong. And I know that's a totally different matter, but it tends to stick with you. >w<
More Random Tidbits
The kappa-opioid receptor, which menthol activates, antagonizes many of the effects of the mu-opioid receptor. (μ-Opposing actions of the κ-opioid receptor)
The mu-opioid receptor inhibits REM sleep. (Opioid inhibition of rapid eye movement sleep by a specific mu receptor agonist)
Prolactin, which the kappa-opioid receptor increases levels of, has a regulatory role in REM sleep. (Rapid Eye Movement Sleep Is Reduced in Prolactin-Deficient Mice)
Kappa-opioid agonists potentiate locomotor sensitization caused by D2 agonists. (Kappa-opioid agonist U69593 potentiates locomotor sensitization to the D2/D3 agonist quinpirole: pre- and postsynaptic mechanisms.)
So hmmm.... Personally, I think this adds some weight to the prolactin/phenethylamine theory, as kappa-opioid receptors directly reduce dopamine, so how else would they be potentiating D2 effects...? Hard to say, though. More interestingly, I think, is the involvement of prolactin in REM and the mu- vs kappa-opioid receptor relationship. Prolactin and dopamine are inversely correlated, but prolactin peaks during REM sleep and the dopaminergic areas of the brain are required for dreams. So how else could this effect be achieved aside from phenethylamine? Aside from that, mu-opioid receptors are the target of endorphins.... Is that why it takes practice to be able to stay in a dream after orgasming? Are the endorphins directly blocking the effect of the kappa-opioid receptor-induced prolactin and phenethylamine release? If this is true, the kappa-opioid receptors could potentially play an even larger part in dreams than I thought, just maybe.... If that's the case, then menthol legitimately is just enhancing the core dream-generating effects of the brain.
...More research is required. >w<
So, today i took 3 Negros again... but i have a so painful migraine that i just can't fall asleep at all :( Then it started raining (finally!), but the thunder was really loud, like it was above the house, so that didn't help either.
Too bad i couldn't do 3 in a row... but i'll try again tomorrow :(
Because I don't eat them. :chuckle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Grandma eats more sweets than I do. And I thought it'll be good to tell Aly that I dreamt of finding flu pills with menthol because I was having a little flu in my dream, but I was planning on overeating more than the required amount.
No it wasn't my idea for the template. I'd seen the post by Aly and had five day's results to put in backdated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
I think the basis/idea for the template was by Kaomea. Alyzarin took it on and implemented it. They are the ones who should be credited.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzarin
Me, I'm just a guinea pig. I only have to answer to God.
(P.S: Sorry if the last sentence comes over a bit 'odd'. It is just me trying to deal with the irony of life. Just like that Alanis Morrisette song!) :-?
True, lots more work and effort. It is much more difficult that everyone is not in one place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Last night/this mornings escapades:
Wed July 11th 2012
Dose: 88.2 mg Cough drops
Side Effects: Insomnia (Chronic)
Sleep Duration: 4.25 hrs after
WBTB: Yes
Lucid: No
Vividness: Typical
Stability: Typical
Dream Comments: Main dream featured lucid dreaming in actual discussion. Lots of reverie and visuals. Dream fragments. Inability to drop off to sleep easily. Stomach ok however.
Me and my two Brothers. Lucid dream discussion and the Tour de France - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
I tried the 3rd night last night, and unfortunately it will be my last. It wasn't a bad experience as such, but i just don't feel it's worth it for me. Here's the results!
Dose: 2 x menthol sweets - amount not specified. (Jakemans Blackcurrant menthol sweets from Boots)
Side Effects: Bad 1st hour of sleep, with some nightmarish quality but not enough to be real fear.
Sleep Duration: 7 hours sleep before taking
WBTB: Yes
Lucid: No
Vividness: Same as always
Stability: Same
Dream Comments: Mostly I had issues with falling to sleep, my thoughts were a bit fearful as I drifted into sleep, which seemed to take longer then usual, and I was 'shocked' or 'jumped' awake every 5 mins for the first hour. Nothing too bad, but enough to put it down to menthol. It's never happened before.
Here's a record of the night's dreams; (before and after the menthol)
10.07.2012 - 6 x dreams and some bad sleep (menthol?) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Aww, that sucks! :blue: I hope you're feeling better now, at least....Quote:
Originally Posted by littlezoe
Hahaha, nice. :chuckle: At least you're clearly dedicated to the cause. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrot
Indeed it was. :nodyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by RobStar
I see, I see.... Alright, let me ask you something else. You took a higher dose than normal and you noted lots of visuals, but still with typical vividness and stability. Do you think that maybe the reason your dreams started off a bit more vivid from the menthol but are now becoming typical even with the increased effects is because your mind is becoming more used to the enhanced state of dreaming? I ask because I can compare this to hallucinogens, as I believe they work through the same mechanisms.... For example, say you take LSD for the first time. You're hallucinating, and you're blown away! You've never seen anything like this before, it's crazy. A few days later, you decide to trip again. It's still badass! Not as intense as before, but definitely a wild ride. A few days later, you go for it again.... Now, you can keep this up for a while, but a few days reaaally isn't enough time to let your tolerance go down for something like LSD. Eventually you're going to reach a point where you're still hallucinating just as hard or harder than your first time, but it doesn't have that same sense of overwhelming intensity, just more of a... "alright, that's cool, but what else have you got?"Quote:
Originally Posted by RobStar
Essentially what I'm getting at is, do you think that an increase in vividness from the first few doses of menthol may actually be a byproduct of your brain responding to a more "enhanced" dream, but afterwards you get used to it and continue on as normal? Now, don't get me wrong.... There's certainly nothing wrong with euphoric, visually complex, or romantic or sexually-charged non-lucids... but I'm wondering if the true benefit of menthol comes not just from using it alone, but from combining it with a stronger cognition enhancer. Basically, taking a dream enhancer AND an established powerful lucid aid.
Alright, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but thanks so much for the tests you've done! It helps a lot. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by isthisit
Still post-menthol atm, and I had yet another series of heavily sexual dreams. And I'm an idiot because I went to store and forgot to buy the damned tea -- I ended up walking out of there with some apple turnovers. >_>
I suppose it'd be wishful thinking to suggest that it causes a permanent increase in sexual dreams. XD Is this still out of the ordinary for you? Have you been abstaining or anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
Hahahaha. :cackle: Well... apple turnovers are pretty delicious. :lol:
Naa, about 1-2x a day... once before I sleep. So I'm surprised my dreams still contain all those sexual elements. It's certainly out of the ordinary because I tend to have a sexual dream in the morning when testosterone is highest, but not throughout the whole night. O_O Haha, so wishful thinking perhaps, but the pattern so far is somewhat abnormal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzarin
<3 Apple turnovers -- they seduced me, whisked my mind away.
Hmmm, that is pretty interesting.... I wonder if it's just related to the large doses you were taking? I got pretty distracted and forgot to dose last night, but I did get a lucid. However, it wasn't overly sexual, though it was vivid. When was the last time you dosed again? *feeling too lazy to scan the thread again at the moment*Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
On the 7th JulyQuote:
Originally Posted by Alyzarin
I consumed 120-130mg within 1hour, and just realised that throughout the same day I had also been eating the rest of the lockets... around 40-50mg.
Was your dream in any way 'emotional', linked to the basic desires, or intense in some capacity? Just trying to see if all the dreams share an underlying 'element'.
Oh wow, so you dosed even higher that day. :chuckle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfwood
It definitely had an emotional feel to it, though I'm not sure how rational of a thought it was.... But I suppose, in a situation like this, it's the feeling that counts, right? At the time, I felt that the dream was connecting me to my childhood memories. Unfortunately I only vividly remember the end where I became lucid, but it was a pretty long dream. I was with an old friend and thought to myself something along the lines of "I wonder if this is a shared dream.... Oh snap, I'm dreaming!" :roll: To test just how stable of a potential shared dream partner my friend was, I slapped him on the back, causing him to burst into sand as my hand continued to go right through where he had been. That was kind of intense. :lol: The setting was in a forest that was also extremely detailed, though natural scenes are often more vivid in my lucids. In the end I happened to look down at myself and notice that I was wearing what appeared to be a transparent white one-piece bathing suit, which, while not to the same extent as the menthol dreams, did make me kind of horny. (Yeah, you don't have to say it again. :P) I got in my old car which I had happened to park in that forest much earlier in the dream, and shortly after I got behind the wheel the dream collapsed. I guess I would say it did have sort of an intense feel to it, that emotional aspect of it was probably the most significant.
It's hard to say. It's quite feasible that I have built up a tolerance, etc. I will have to do a 'clean' WBTB or two to see if I get a rebound effect from the lack of the menthol. I suppose with dreams as well it can be subjective. Some lucids seem 'real' whereas some are a lot weaker, whether menthol induced or not, even if you stick to the same routines. I think it is a question of recall. I don't know but I think you can get desensitised over time. I don't know much about LSD as I have never taken it, nor done really much research about it, although it is an interesting subject in itself. One amazing chemical compound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyzarin
I think these differences in sensitization are also present when I drank apple juice. I found that helped initially by increasing my awareness and recall levels, yet on some days (same routine/same amount) I found I struggled.
There may also be a gender thing going on as well with differing effects (regarding sex and libido levels) in men and women? Generally with me it tends to act like a stimulant, probably due to the other ingredients in the cough drops as I get sleeplessness. If I try a purer form would no doubt answer that question. I might try BEFORE I go to bed, then compare any differences?
In the future it might benefit me more when attempting WILD buy keeping my alertness threshold slightly higher, then drop it at the crucial moment (when the dream is forming.) It (menthol) might help me with certain exercises to build up visualization skills due to the spontaneous imagery which seems to be created (in my case) without much effort. This may help reach DILD easier?
Regarding combinations. No doubt it would work depending on the person and the other compound. A sort of 'pick and mix' down the local chemist/herbstore/sweet shop perhaps?
I have got thoughts by using one with another, a bit like Lennon and MacCartney, or Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers, but I don't want to get ahead of myself if it ends up more Jedward and Ronald MacDonald where I end up running to the toilet every 5 min.
How do you check how much menthol is in the sweet? And my fridge is quite empty of sore throat sweets. My guess is grandma was eating them because she's having a terrible cough.