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    Thread: Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

    1. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bobblehat View Post
      Okay, I'm thinking potential short cuts, and I'll admit the full extent of my knowledge on the subject only goes as far as "It needs to produce 40hz". I looked up this article on TENS and spotted the parts ">50 hz" and "<10hz" and wonder to myself if a TENS unit could be a little tweaking away from being able to produce "the magic figure" 40hz?

      Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Nope, unfortunately you should never use a TENS unit near the head. They aren't meant for the brain and would never be used there, it's a frequent question though.

      Quote Originally Posted by Voldmer View Post
      The voltage from HIFI-equipment is very low, and bodily resistance is extremely high, so you couldn't "zap" yourself for the life of it. Probably the voltage is too low to work for our purposes, but then the voltage of the headphone-outlet can be varied to some extent.

      We need to know the exact voltage used in the experiment ...
      The voltage that I've seen used so far is roughly between a 5v line to 9v battery, The amperage is less than 2 milliamps and the actual sponges, electrodes are 83microamps/cm^2. The combined ohms of both electrodes in this experiment were kept under 5.

      The problem with a HIFI system is that it will require too many modifications. The input is 240/120v which is far too dangerous, the voltage is lowered, but amperage increased to drive the speaker cone. On it's own the amp in he speaker would probably have a line rate at well over a single amp, which is already a factor of 1000 bigger than what we need.
      It will also not have any redundancy checks, nor is it capable of modulating the pulse, or activating when you hit rem.

      The work involved makes it far less economical than you would think, you're better building from the ground up will components you know will work.
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      Quote Originally Posted by dutchraptor View Post
      The voltage that I've seen used so far is roughly between a 5v line to 9v battery, The amperage is less than 2 milliamps and the actual sponges, electrodes are 83microamps/cm^2. The combined ohms of both electrodes in this experiment were kept under 5.

      The problem with a HIFI system is that it will require too many modifications. The input is 240/120v which is far too dangerous, the voltage is lowered, but amperage increased to drive the speaker cone. On it's own the amp in he speaker would probably have a line rate at well over a single amp, which is already a factor of 1000 bigger than what we need.
      It will also not have any redundancy checks, nor is it capable of modulating the pulse, or activating when you hit rem.

      The work involved makes it far less economical than you would think, you're better building from the ground up will components you know will work.
      I agree that more is needed than the HIFI-amplifier on its own; you also need a signal source to generate the 40 Hz signal. If you want to trigger it at REM-time, then you need equipment to register this too.

      But the issue of danger due to the amplifier-input being 240 V is not really relevant, unless your equipment is seriously malfunctioning. Also, the current is not relevant because it refers to loudspeakers of very low electrical resistance (typically only 4-8 Ohm). The human body has gigantic electrical resistance compared to this (dry skin lies between 1000 and 100,000 Ohm), so the current through the human body would be insignificant with such low voltage.

      Try plugging a cable into a signal line output (e.g. output to tape-recorder/monitor/equalizer/whatever) from an ordinary amplifier, and then short circuit the signal at the other end with your fingers. It will most likely be so subtle as to not register at all. Same result if you short circuit loudspeaker cables.
      So ... is this the real universe, or is it just a preliminary study?

    3. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by Voldmer View Post
      I agree that more is needed than the HIFI-amplifier on its own; you also need a signal source to generate the 40 Hz signal. If you want to trigger it at REM-time, then you need equipment to register this too.

      But the issue of danger due to the amplifier-input being 240 V is not really relevant, unless your equipment is seriously malfunctioning. Also, the current is not relevant because it refers to loudspeakers of very low electrical resistance (typically only 4-8 Ohm). The human body has gigantic electrical resistance compared to this (dry skin lies between 1000 and 100,000 Ohm), so the current through the human body would be insignificant with such low voltage.

      Try plugging a cable into a signal line output (e.g. output to tape-recorder/monitor/equalizer/whatever) from an ordinary amplifier, and then short circuit the signal at the other end with your fingers. It will most likely be so subtle as to not register at all. Same result if you short circuit loudspeaker cables.
      The danger is entirely relevant, unless you feel like running the risk of killing yourself. It's just idiotic to use a 240v line if you could use a 9v battery. It's likely nothing will happen, but if it does you are 99% a goner.

      Next important point is that electrodes in tcds are never, absolutely never used dry. The impedance of skin is much lower when wet or gelled, we need to use a saline solution or gel for he reason that we want to lower he impedance (which is closer to 300-1000 ohm).

      I see absolutely no reason why you would take this path, it's much easier to use a lower amperage system with gel electrodes, than trying to modify the existing method and electronics of some HIFI system.

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      Quote Originally Posted by dutchraptor View Post
      The danger is entirely relevant, unless you feel like running the risk of killing yourself. It's just idiotic to use a 240v line if you could use a 9v battery. It's likely nothing will happen, but if it does you are 99% a goner.

      Next important point is that electrodes in tcds are never, absolutely never used dry. The impedance of skin is much lower when wet or gelled, we need to use a saline solution or gel for he reason that we want to lower he impedance (which is closer to 300-1000 ohm).
      I think you are being overly cautious; there is a rectifier in the amplifier, and this downscales the voltage by two orders of magnitude. Normally these things work just fine. If they didn't, the equipment would be fried rapidly. But okay, being cautious is certainly a virtue.

      If the skin must be moist, then this implies the need to actually lower the resistance for enough current to be generated. This makes perfect sense, because it allows using a low voltage. Not a problem, except for the inconvenience of having to apply some gel to the skin (another possibility would be to increase the voltage, so that the large resistance of the dry skin could be overcome).


      Quote Originally Posted by dutchraptor View Post
      I see absolutely no reason why you would take this path, it's much easier to use a lower amperage system with gel electrodes, than trying to modify the existing method and electronics of some HIFI system.
      I would probably not take that path either; I'm still interested in sound-induced brain-entrainment.
      So ... is this the real universe, or is it just a preliminary study?

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      Ha - found it!!
      Took a while, since the title of this thread didn't exactly help - but there are loads of information in it around TCDS:
      http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-sign...am-recall.html

      Our thread's study here didn't use the classical TCDS configuration, though, but something with alternating currents - "tACS".
      Don't know, if you can find something about specifically that in the above linked thread, too - here a quote:


      Quote Originally Posted by FateTrader View Post
      Did I recommend anything? I merely stated my own observations and if anyone wants to try it it is his own choice.

      Scientists raising concerns, but of course they will. Some will be genuine concerns about people and some will be also genuine concerns but for other reasons like charging lots of money for the sessions at the clinic. By the way you can find a lot about doctors already using it. There was recently a paper issued asking government for taking control of the matter. Anyway you can find out scientific papers what is required and how to build it and there is no magic or any special knowledge required to do it. This is the whole reason why it is not in the spotlight, big medical companies can not make enough money from it. It is just to simple and cheap to make and does not cost much to use it just the price of the batteries.

      But if you so believe in their good will and honesty about their concerns, what does it tell you when decades ago first time was proposed to use amalgam fillings for teeth and at first it was by many of them regarded as an absurd, after all it contains a lot of mercury, the most poisonous substance to human body. But never the less it was introduced and used on us for many years and still is. This is just one example.

      You want some information here it is, first some articles:
      The Crimson White | Direct stimulation may increase cognitive performance
      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/ma....html?hpw&_r=0
      Zapping your brain enhances your love of classic art - health - 31 October 2013 - New Scientist
      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/sc...ind.html?_r=1&
      Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation and Repetitive Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation in Consultation-Liaison Psychiatry - TMS Therapy in Los Angeles
      The Hidden Costs of Cognitive Enhancement - Wired Science
      Don’t try this at home: Researchers use tDCS to release your brain’s strongest opioid painkillers | ExtremeTech
      Frontiers | Making long-term memories in minutes: a spaced learning pattern from memory research in education | Frontiers in Human Neuroscience
      Shinzen's Blog: Meet My New Girlfriend: tDCS
      The Last Word On Nothing | Better Living Through Electrochemistry
      https://googledrive.com/host/0B_K26Q..._the_zone.html
      £500 electric shock machine can boost learning and memory - but scientists worry it could be misused | Mail Online
      Amping Up Brain Function: Transcranial Stimulation Shows Promise in Speeding Up Learning: Scientific American
      DARPA Study Uses Video Game to Research tDCS, Finds More Amps Mean More Frags
      Neuroscience: Brain buzz : Nature News
      Servier | Transcranial direct current stimulation in the treatment of depression | Medicographia

      here you can find tons of scientific papers on it
      tdcs - PubMed - NCBI
      IEEE Xplore - SearchResult

      and some more here
      http://www.trans-cranial.com/research/index.php

      There is much more but you will have to find it yourself.

      BY NO MEANS I DO ENCOURAGE ANYONE. DO WHAT YOU WILL IT IS YOUR LIFE.

      Aand - then there is this thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1...rem-sleep.html with loads of wisdom - incl. IAmCoder's.
      I guess, he is the best candidate for building the first gamma-voodoo* machine among us forumites!



      *reference to a song ..

    6. #31
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      Re: Binaural beats.

      Binaural beats - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Wikipedia refers to the 'cocktail effect' in beat frequencies generally anything over 30 Hz. However in the same article there is reference to a 40 Hz binaural beat frequency.

      Perceived human hearing is limited to the range of frequencies from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, but the frequencies of human brain waves are below about 40 Hz. To account for this lack of perception, binaural beat frequencies are used. Beat frequencies of 40 Hz have been produced in the brain with binaural sound and measured experimentally.[28]
      Schwarz DW, Taylor P (2005). "Human auditory steady state responses to binaural and monaural beats". Clinical Neurophysiology 116 (3): 658–68.

      Elsevier

      Ryan Hurd also refers to this in his dreamstudies portal back in early 2011.
      Lucid dreaming Brain Entrainment with Binaural Beats | dream studies portal
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      Very interesting study indeed. However, I wouldn't expect to see a commercial device for tACS-induced lucid dreaming any time soon.

      You can't purchase a tACS, tDCS, or TMS system now as a consumer, at least not here in the states, without being a licensed health professional. The applications and results researchers are finding now with TMS are outstanding but it really should be stressed that many of the same researchers are very weary of testing TMS on humans to extreme limits.

      I personally would never trust the average person not to go overboard with a TMS (tACS or tDCS) system and zap themselves all day long with no clear idea what they were doing. In order for researchers to test the extreme limits (using TMS for hours each day) they will have to progressively make studies more ambitious and carefully review each new work so that the boundaries of ethics are not crossed.

      This specific study by Voss & Hobson used tACS because it's more accurate to target specific lobes of the PFC plus they found tDCS to be too loud during sleep and it produces a tactile sensation on the skin when used (especially up near Gamma, 25-40 HZ). Their stimuli consisted of only a 1-epoch (30 second) zap to the front lobes and they still had to get approval from an ethics board to conduct this study.

      If someone in the LD community wants to try this, please be very cautious and do yourself a favor by following the exact same protocols done in this study.
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      Thank you for that post, jonesn - great explanations for one - and I should have put out a warning as well - the above thread I linked up also has a discussion on the dangers - thanks Highlander et al for that!

      So please - don't fry your most precious possession!!

      there is plenty evidence for binaural beats having effects in the sense of sound frequency derived brain-wave entrainment!
      And that is exactly what we are after.
      The assorted health and benefit claims are not quite that well demonstrated, though.

      Many lucid dreaming experiments have - wrongly it looks like - used 10 Hz alpha wave entrainment instead of 40 Hz.
      So maybe the potential is not yet really explored!

      Some have attempted to use them to induce lucid dreaming, but the role of alpha-wave activity in lucid dreaming is subject to ongoing research.[35][36][37]
      It's not the actual external sound frequency, that gets entrained - the brain produces it.
      It works by giving one ear a frequency of say 400 Hz and the other one a frequency of 410 Hz, and then the difference in frequencies, only in a small range, becomes entrained and EEG will show a tendency to 10 Hz. It follows a mechanism for sound location - and it seems to work for 40 Hz gamma waves, too:

      Beat frequencies of 40 Hz have been produced in the brain with binaural sound and measured experimentally.[28]
      Despite something called disco-effect kicking in at 30 Hz, making it problematic:

      The brain produces a phenomenon resulting in low-frequency pulsations in the amplitude and sound localization of a perceived sound when two tones at slightly different frequencies are presented separately, one to each of a subject's ears, using stereo headphones. A beating tone will be perceived, as if the two tones mixed naturally, out of the brain. The frequencies of the tones must be below 1,000 hertz for the beating to be noticeable.[3] The difference between the two frequencies must be small (less than or equal to 30 Hz) for the effect to occur; otherwise, the two tones will be heard separately, and no beat will be perceived.
      For frequency differences between the ear signals of above 30 Hz, the cocktail party effect begins to work, and the auditory system is able to analyze the presented ear signals in terms of two different sound sources at two different locations, and two distinct signals are perceived.
      But anyway - very interesting, actually - definitively worth a try. My husband has experimented with binaural beats, but stopped doing it - got to ask him for details.
      But I doubt, that you can achieve enough of an effect in the frontal lobes to cause a comparably strong response as by doing it directly with electrodes. Esp. since binaural beats work best between 10 and 30 Hz - and with it comes the problem of having to hear beats, while supposed to keep sleeping.
      But who knows? The OP's scientists also said, that they didn't expect their thing to actually work.
      Maybe one can get them gammas even less complicatedly and completely safe!

      I'll copy most of the Wikipedia article on over, for who might be interested:

      Spoiler for binaural beats from Wikipedia:

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      I just don't see with binaural beats how such a signal would get from the part of the brain that processes hearing over to the prefrontal cortex. Using the tACS seems much more direct and likely to work.

      Also it may not have to be firing the signal all the time. Perhaps just for 30 seconds a couple minutes after entering REM like in the experiment, if you want to play it safe. Ideally though it would fire more so that lucidity stays high.
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      Yeah - huge post, and my fazit is that I don't think, binaural beats would work comparatively.

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      I don't know how you could use sound to duplicate electrical signals. It would be like trying to change the signal on your cable line using vibrations of the cable. Sure the ear is a transducer, but it's like scratching your toe to sooth your stomach.

      As for speaker wires being safe to stick to your head, you're talking several watts of power. That could be very unpleasant.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BatteryCharged View Post
      I don't know how you could use sound to duplicate electrical signals. It would be like trying to change the signal on your cable line using vibrations of the cable. Sure the ear is a transducer, but it's like scratching your toe to sooth your stomach.
      This is a bit unfair; if you bat an eye, it generates a magnetic field that can induce electrical currents several feet away. Vibrating an eardrum would have a similar effect (although smaller, because an eardrum is smaller than an eyelid). And who knows how well the brain picks up on such magnetic fields? It is certainly not obvious that the brain would not register it at all.


      Quote Originally Posted by BatteryCharged View Post
      As for speaker wires being safe to stick to your head, you're talking several watts of power. That could be very unpleasant.
      This isn't really meaningful; the power depends on the electrical resistance, and the number you are qouting refers to loudspeakers of very low resistance. The human body has much higher resistance, so the power would be much smaller (Power equals voltage squared, divided by resistance).
      So ... is this the real universe, or is it just a preliminary study?

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      Don't forget you need to lower the body's resistance to get effects with electrodes - they are all applied with contact gel, esp. for that purpose.
      Anyway - probably it is the easiest way to first test binaural beats, if you have a REM detector and somebody/some mechanism to start them off after 2 min. REM.
      And if it doesn't produce enough of an effect - like I suspect - build a tACS - shouldn't be beyond you, Voldmer to do it from scratch.
      I'd really keep my fingers of your hifi equipment, if I were you - just listen to some beautiful dreamy music with it instead!

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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      Don't forget you need to lower the body's resistance to get effects with electrodes - they are all applied with contact gel, esp. for that purpose.
      Anyway - probably it is the easiest way to first test binaural beats, if you have a REM detector and somebody/some mechanism to start them off after 2 min. REM.
      And if it doesn't produce enough of an effect - like I suspect - build a tACS - shouldn't be beyond you, Voldmer to do it from scratch.
      Thanks for the vote of confidence! But I'm probably not the best person for constructing such a system, being much more of an algorithm-designer than a hands-on electrical engineer.


      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      I'd really keep my fingers of your hifi equipment, if I were you - just listen to some beautiful dreamy music with it instead!
      That is of course always a good way to use it.

      Incidentally, I should probably mention the binaural beat albums of Dr. Jeffrey Thompson. Nice music with various binaural tracks layered onto them.
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      So ... is this the real universe, or is it just a preliminary study?

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      My LDing record, if you want to hear about it, is about 4 WILDs, 1 DEILD, and the rest DILDs.

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      Very interesting!!
      It means, the scientific community goes about extended experiments with these techniques - can only be a good thing!

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      Quote Originally Posted by IAmCoder View Post
      This was published in Nature Neuroscience today: lucid dreams were induced 77% of the time when electrodes placed on the scalp stimulate the frontal cortex at 40 Hertz two minutes after entering a dream.

      Check out the latest research at the J.W. Goethe-University Frankfurt: Brain Zaps Can Trigger Lucid Dreams | LiveScience!
      This paper is the biggest LD news in many years! At least assuming other researchers will be able to reproduce the results. It's fun to think of what this would look like as an LD induction product. It would be best if it was a comfortable, self-contained unit you'd wear on your head. Wouldn't want to mess around with wires or cables of any kind. Would be nice to have a Bluetooth connection, so you could program it with a computer or smartphone app. It would have electrodes to monitor your sleep state and electrodes to administer the tACS signal to your scalp at the appropriate time/duration following detection of REM sleep. You'd probably be able to select the frequency and amplitude of the tACS signal. Or maybe have multiple frequencies. OTOH, just having 40 Hz should be fine. You might also be able to vary other parameters, such as the delay after detecting REM sleep, duration of the scalp stimulation, etc. Might also be interesting to have a mode where it stimulates your scalp during NREM sleep. Wonder if that could stimulate REM and/or lucidity.

      One thing I was wondering about, though, is how the electrodes would connect to the scalp. Would you have to use some kind of gel to ensure a good electrical contact is made? Also, would your scalp have to be shaved? Would probably cut down on sales, if people had to shave their heads to use the device. Wouldn't stop me from buying one, though.

      Also, it might be an uphill battle to get such a product approved for non-medical uses. Not sure what the regulations are in that regard.

      Another thought: There's probably no good reason why the electrodes for monitoring sleep state couldn't double as the electrodes for administering the electrical stimulation. That would reduce the number of electrodes required and might make the product cheaper and easier to use.
      Last edited by NyxCC; 05-17-2014 at 10:35 PM. Reason: Merged posts

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      Soo - I have come across an article in WIRED on this study, and it is quite sobering to see the background of how they measured lucidity.
      Nobody in this study experienced a lucid dream at all, if I understand this correctly.
      Here we go:

      Spoiler for the beginning of the article - stuff we already know:
      Despite the robust methodology, I think these headlines are getting carried away. Here’s why. Lucid dreaming was defined by higher scores in participants’ feelings of insight (knowing that they were dreaming); dissociation (taking a third person perspective); and control (being able to shape events). I looked up the paper where the researchers first described their scale for measuring these factors. If I understand correctly, the participants rated their experience of these three factors on a scale of 0 (strongly disagree that I had such an experience) to 5 (strongly agree). Now if we look to see the scores they gave for how much dream insight, dissociation and control they had, we find that the averages for the gamma stimulation condition are around 0.6, 1.3, and 0.5 respectively.

      Yes, these scores are significantly higher compared with stimulation at other frequencies and with sham treatment, but they are nonetheless incredibly low. A real life creation of the dream control depicted in the movie Inception, this is not! I suppose this study is a proof of principle, so let’s wait and see what comes from future research.

      But actually one more thing – these kind of studies that examine the impact of brain stimulation seem so crude. Do the researchers really know what neural effect the stimulation is having and why? I don’t think they do – the explanation in this paper is typically sketchy. “We assume that lower gamma activity is mediated by activation of fast-spiking interneurons that are known to generate gamma oscillations in cortical networks … These networks have been proposed to gate sensory processing, which might also enable lucid dreaming in a temporarily specific manner.” Got that? No, me neither.
      There is a discrepancy, though, with what is written in the livescience article linked up in the OP:

      The results showed that when the inexperienced dreamers were zapped with a current of 40 Hertz, 77 percent of the time these participants reported having what were described as lucid dreams.

      "They were really excited," said study researcher Ursula Voss, of J.W. Goethe-University Frankfurt, who designed the experiments. "The dream reports were short, but long enough for them to report, 'Wow, all of the sudden I knew this was a dream, while I was dreaming.'
      The wording I fattened is suspicious - but the below quote?

      I have linked up to diagrams of the original paper only - there is no more - and I don't think, they can resolve this.
      One needed to get at the complete paper.


      By the way - another 2 interesting WIRED articles around the topic:
      The Unfinished Science Behind the New Wave of Electrical Brain Stimulation | Science | WIRED
      Inside the Strange New World of DIY Brain Stimulation | Magazine | WIRED
      Last edited by StephL; 05-18-2014 at 10:05 PM. Reason: can't seem to leave it be ..
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      If I understand correctly, the participants rated their experience of these three factors on a scale of 0 (strongly disagree that I had such an experience) to 5 (strongly agree). Now if we look to see the scores they gave for how much dream insight, dissociation and control they had, we find that the averages for the gamma stimulation condition are around 0.6, 1.3, and 0.5 respectively.
      The wording I fattened is suspicious - but the below quote?
      Great points you've made here, StephL. I didn't realize the lucidity scores were based on a 5-point scale. So it sounds like many of the dreams influenced by the 25 & 40 Hz stimulation may not have actually been what most of us would consider to be lucid.

      One needed to get at the complete paper.
      I actually bought the paper and read the whole thing. But the paper itself doesn't mention the 5-point scale. It does reference another paper that probably discussed the 5-point scale. I wish the paper had given a lot more examples of LDs described by the experimental subjects. It only gives one:

      Example of lucid dream report following 40-Hz stimulation. I was dreaming about lemon cake. It looked translucent, but then again, it didn’t. It was a bit like in an animated movie, like the Simpsons. And then I started falling and the scenery changed and I was talking to Matthias Schweighöfer (a German actor) and 2 foreign exchange students. And I was wondering about the actor and they told me “yes, you met him before,” so then I realized “oops, you are dreaming.” I mean, while I was dreaming! So strange!
      I'd definitely call that a true LD. But there's no way of knowing from the paper how common actual LDs were for subjects stimulated at 25 and 40 Hz. Would be great to ask the authors about this.
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      I was actually privileged enough to have taken part in an unofficial study regarding this very thing a few years back from someone over at mortal mist. They sent me a cranial stimulation device and I would place the electrodes on my head and tune to a specific frequency (that I'm not allowed to divulge due to confidentiality waiver) and use the device when I WBTB or WILD. First of all I nearly became addicted to this device because you could tune it to just about any frequency and I enjoyed experimenting with it so much...the effects it had ranged from sedative (at lower frequencies) to hallucinogenic to anxiousness and everything in between. There was one setting I'd use that literally made me think I was swinging back in forth in an enormous hammock and it was so damn relaxing. Anyways getting to the point, yes it made me lucid...yes it was hard to give the device back to its owner so other people could test it out as well I looked into buying a CES device myself but they were several hundred dollars (at least a few years ago, I have no idea what the market is like these days). The key is having the freedom to set it to any frequency you want, a lot of cheaper devices only give you a few settings like alpha, beta, delta, gamma waves etc. which wouldn't cut it for something specific like lucid dreaming.

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      Quote Originally Posted by nina View Post
      I was actually privileged enough to have taken part in an unofficial study regarding this very thing a few years back from someone over at mortal mist. They sent me a cranial stimulation device and I would place the electrodes on my head and tune to a specific frequency (that I'm not allowed to divulge due to confidentiality waiver) and use the device when I WBTB or WILD. First of all I nearly became addicted to this device because you could tune it to just about any frequency and I enjoyed experimenting with it so much...the effects it had ranged from sedative (at lower frequencies) to hallucinogenic to anxiousness and everything in between. There was one setting I'd use that literally made me think I was swinging back in forth in an enormous hammock and it was so damn relaxing. Anyways getting to the point, yes it made me lucid...yes it was hard to give the device back to its owner so other people could test it out as well I looked into buying a CES device myself but they were several hundred dollars (at least a few years ago, I have no idea what the market is like these days). The key is having the freedom to set it to any frequency you want, a lot of cheaper devices only give you a few settings like alpha, beta, delta, gamma waves etc. which wouldn't cut it for something specific like lucid dreaming.
      I also participated in that Mortal Mist study. I tried it a lot, with various frequencies, including the recommended one. Unfortunately, it didn't do much of anything for me, at least for inducing LDs. I guess nothing works for everyone. Or I might have been doing something wrong.

      How often did you get lucid with CES? Was it anywhere close to the 77% success rate reported in the Nature paper? Also, are you someone who gets lucid fairly easily?

    22. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      Soo - I have come across an article in WIRED on this study, and it is quite sobering to see the background of how they measured lucidity.
      Nobody in this study experienced a lucid dream at all, if I understand this correctly.
      Here we go:

      Spoiler for the beginning of the article - stuff we already know:


      There is a discrepancy, though, with what is written in the livescience article linked up in the OP:



      The wording I fattened is suspicious - but the below quote?

      I have linked up to diagrams of the original paper only - there is no more - and I don't think, they can resolve this.
      One needed to get at the complete paper.


      By the way - another 2 interesting WIRED articles around the topic:
      The Unfinished Science Behind the New Wave of Electrical Brain Stimulation | Science | WIRED
      Inside the Strange New World of DIY Brain Stimulation | Magazine | WIRED
      Steph,

      I think you're right to an extent about this WIRED article but it also illustrates a fine point about the term "lucid dreaming".

      Lucidity can't really be viewed as a PASS/FAIL result because the complexities that determine this state of consciousness are so numerous and often independent of each other. What I mean is, there's a difference between being "lucid" in a dream versus being truly "cognizant" in a dream, with the latter being a state of pure consciousness wherein you have gained not just basic engagement but also volition/control and the ability to carry on that state for longer than a brief moment.

      It's possible the goal of lucidity in the Voss/Hobson study was achieved when they simply made a user less dissociative (1.3 of 5.0 being a good score), which could arguably apply to lower-level lucidity. To me the measurements of insight and control apply more to a higher-level "cognizant" dreaming state, though they were not necessary to claim success of simple lower-level lucidity.

      I've always believed that to become truly lucid in a dream it needs to be a product of your own volition so that it can be maintained for longer than a brief moment. In this study the gamma-zap to the frontal lobes brought a brief and fleeting surge of awareness in the same way that a defibrillator brings a jolt to the heart. Draw your own conclusions on that metaphor
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      If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is: Infinite. ---William Blake

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      Quote Originally Posted by jonesn View Post
      Lucidity can't really be viewed as a PASS/FAIL result because the complexities that determine this state of consciousness are so numerous and often independent of each other. What I mean is, there's a difference between being "lucid" in a dream versus being truly "cognizant" in a dream, with the latter being a state of pure consciousness wherein you have gained not just basic engagement but also volition/control and the ability to carry on that state for longer than a brief moment.
      That's a good point. I sometimes have difficulty deciding whether a particular dream I've had was lucid or not.

      Quote Originally Posted by jonesn View Post
      It's possible the goal of lucidity in the Voss/Hobson study was achieved when they simply made a user less dissociative (1.3 of 5.0 being a good score), which could arguably apply to lower-level lucidity. To me the measurements of insight and control apply more to a higher-level "cognizant" dreaming state, though they were not necessary to claim success of simple lower-level lucidity.

      I've always believed that to become truly lucid in a dream it needs to be a product of your own volition so that it can be maintained for longer than a brief moment. In this study the gamma-zap to the frontal lobes brought a brief and fleeting surge of awareness in the same way that a defibrillator brings a jolt to the heart. Draw your own conclusions on that metaphor
      The question is whether that brief surge of awareness could transform a regular dream into a true LD. It did so in at least one case in the Nature paper:

      Example of lucid dream report following 40-Hz stimulation. I was dreaming about lemon cake. It looked translucent, but then again, it didn’t. It was a bit like in an animated movie, like the Simpsons. And then I started falling and the scenery changed and I was talking to Matthias Schweighöfer (a German actor) and 2 foreign exchange students. And I was wondering about the actor and they told me “yes, you met him before,” so then I realized “oops, you are dreaming.” I mean, while I was dreaming! So strange!
      Sounds like they woke the subjects up before they had a chance to experience much lucidity. The tACS stimulation was applied for 30 seconds. Then 10 seconds later, the subjects were woken up. As a follow-up experiment, it would be interesting to see how long the lucidity could be maintained once it has been induced.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zthread View Post
      I also participated in that Mortal Mist study. I tried it a lot, with various frequencies, including the recommended one. Unfortunately, it didn't do much of anything for me, at least for inducing LDs. I guess nothing works for everyone. Or I might have been doing something wrong.

      How often did you get lucid with CES? Was it anywhere close to the 77% success rate reported in the Nature paper? Also, are you someone who gets lucid fairly easily?
      I don't have the details about exactly how often I got lucid, but I can say that I am a natural lucid dreamer and typically have 1-3 lucids a week without any induction methods. I definitely go through dry spells too where I won't LD at all for a month or so, but then they randomly come back for whatever reason. The CES for me definitely qualifies as an induction method so it's only natural that my LD frequency would increase a bit just from experimenting with the device and being in the mind set to get lucid, regardless of the device's actual effectiveness. The correlations I was able to make were more indirect...in that I was lucid in general more often during the times when I was experimenting with the device, rather than becoming lucid directly as a result of having the device on during a REM period if that makes any sense.

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      Quote Originally Posted by nina View Post
      I don't have the details about exactly how often I got lucid, but I can say that I am a natural lucid dreamer and typically have 1-3 lucids a week without any induction methods. I definitely go through dry spells too where I won't LD at all for a month or so, but then they randomly come back for whatever reason. The CES for me definitely qualifies as an induction method so it's only natural that my LD frequency would increase a bit just from experimenting with the device and being in the mind set to get lucid, regardless of the device's actual effectiveness. The correlations I was able to make were more indirect...in that I was lucid in general more often during the times when I was experimenting with the device, rather than becoming lucid directly as a result of having the device on during a REM period if that makes any sense.
      So it may have been at least partially the placebo effect, in your case. Must be nice to be a natural lucid dreamer!
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