Thread: Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

I hope there is enough room to cram in a 50 hz notch filter in that amazing box of electronics to suppress all those nasty radiated noise artifacts from that mains lamp near his head!

Originally Posted by Kaan

I see 5 electrods wich is weird.

Is this the only thing that is weird about their device? I can't see anything that makes any sense...

Originally Posted by thewolf16

These arent just normal metallic buttons but stainless steel non-contact Sensors like Neurosky uses:

Sorry Wolf, but I don't think this is the case. If you look closer, you will notice that the Neurosky helmet (apart from being a toy as AKA said) uses compact, pure, flat, stainless steel electrodes.
image.jpg
The Luciding "device" on the other hand, uses simple clothing buttons! You can clearly see that 1. The are not flat like Neurosky's - they have a stem
image.jpg
2. They are not even - see the picture you posted: they are uneven and most likely hollow!

Originally Posted by ATA

Electrode placement in this pictures is just chaos.

I totally agree... This does not make any sense. I mean seriously, what kind of company answers every simple and casual question and refuses to answer the serious ones? They have not answered any technical question and I suspect that they simply can't.... Petr continues to ask them about details but that have answered nothing, NOTHING.
I believe that their "device" is not operational and this is the reason they fail every deadline (5 by now, I think). They don't send the devices because if they will, everyone will find out... Until then, they keep selling and making money... I really hope that I am wrong, but....

Anyway, regarding my trials, first two nights, the tACS device was triggered 3 times as I found in the morning (2 + 1 ) but no lucidity. I have to start changing stuff such as intensity and electrode placement.
I wish Jeff was still around to give us details of his setup but it seems that he has left...

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Is this the only thing that is weird about their device? I can't see anything that makes any sense...



Sorry Wolf, but I don't think this is the case. If you look closer, you will notice that the Neurosky helmet (apart from being a toy as AKA said) uses compact, pure, flat, stainless steel electrodes.
image.jpg
The Luciding "device" on the other hand, uses simple clothing buttons! You can clearly see that 1. The are not flat like Neurosky's - the have a stem
image.jpg
2. They are not even - see the picture you posted: they are uneven and most likely hollow!



I totally agree... This does not make any sense. I mean seriously, what kind of company answers every simple and casual question and refuses to answer the serious ones? They have not answered any technical question and I suspect that they simply can't.... Petr continues to ask them about details but that have answered nothing, NOTHING.
I believe that their "device" is not operational and this is the reason they fail every deadline (5 by now, I think). They don't send the devices because if they will, everyone will find out... Until then, they keep selling and making money... I really hope that I am wrong, but....

Anyway, regarding my trials, first two nights, the tACS device was triggered 3 times as I found in the morning (2 + 1 ) but no lucidity. I have to start changing stuff such as intensity and electrode placement.
I wish Jeff was still around to give us details of his setup but it seems that he has left...

No, no no...
I ain't buying this stuff
I'il just hope that LucidSage's Consumer Version is going to be released somewhere in the near future.

Originally Posted by LucidSage

From her responses to me it seemed that she is not only very busy with research but had to attend to other matters and was unable to reply often, let alone quickly.

I will talk about it more in one of the next podcast episodes but in general, despite her (and her research team) looking at it from a different point of view than we do, I felt that my concerns were mostly put to rest.

There are many people working on devices in the same vain (myself included) and a consumer version is not far one way or another.

Or in the worst case perhaps just spend my funds on TENS Device and do some 'Android App x TENS Device' Magic

Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto

Or in the worst case perhaps just spend my funds on TENS Device and do some 'Android App x TENS Device' Magic

The most simple and cheap thing to do, is to make a PCSpeaker device, as Petr suggested. I assembled it and is super easy to do - took me 30 min.
image.jpg
If I knew this setup 3 weeks ago, I wouldn't have bought the TENS device.
Even now, if my setup fails, I will try Petr's setup instead because it it easy, versatile and can produce many waveforms - as easy as making a sound file!

Wow, this seems very easy to make, but dont you need any oscilator to controll the waves? And how do you controll the current intensity? At step 3: Do you need to get the signal from the speaker or the board? How do you connect the cables to the low voltage end (without soldering)? Does every power adapter works? And can i use this cable (of an non-functional cheap tens device):

IMG_20141119_105855.jpg

with these electrodes?:

*Link removed* Sanitas Electroden Set

I will build one for myself when luciding wont answer to the technical questions.

As I understand, the oscilations come from the MP3 or the smartphone thanks to an audio file you can make with soundforge for exemple.
The curent controle is a good question ! all the PC speaker arent made the same way, so tests are needed to me.
The signal comes from the speaker but through the reversed transformator.
Is it a 220 V our a 110v by the way?

More details, photos, shemas , and a tutorial would be apréciated in the future for thoses who want to build their own.
But more tests and reports are needed.

Right now completed another test F3-F4 location 40HZ sinus current about 0,15mA (only fast test of it before sleep so value can oscilate during the sleep)
I have about 7 of sleep in 10min put on and setup the device and start test 8:30 today.

I have problem fall asleep because i usually roll over in bed l few times before it and i didnt want to do that beacouse of wires.
I experinced very strong sleep signal like roll over signal and ithching of the nose after some time hart to say maybe 20-30min i try change possition few times and finnaly fall asleep.
*i must better prepare wires i fixate wire in onle leg of table to prevent pull it out from device but when i roll over i was on limit of wire lenght and was comlicated by that (wire is long enought only need chnge fixation point and move table closer to bed)

To not pull wires form elctrodes whne rolling in bed i use this method .Wires from electrodes are only about 30 cm long its better for cealing and allow better manipulation.They are conncetet it to abut 3 m long wire twoline (tough enough to not to sever by body movement). The long wire create a loop around neck bigh enought to pull head to it witch knot inforn of and behaint the neck .From the knot of back side of neck continue about 5cm of wire.Thin wires from electrodes go from forehead to ear and bahaind it where connect to thicker wires ,joint is not soldered it be better use some connectors. There is also one reason why is not soldered if something go wrong i an very fact severe conncetion by hand witch is better otion than try to put down electrides in prosec of dicnnecting electrode from skin contact area witch if decrease nd current desity go UP so this is safer way.Joint of wires is insuleted by some tape.

used audio file was 5min of simulation adn 20 min of silence

I slept about 2H and dont have any LD but i have about 5 false awakenings usualy witch scenario that something go wrong with stimulation .With some tenaing is can be used to acheve LD by reality check after awakening.This many false awakenings is unusual form me but is imposibble say now of they are due to stimulation or only worry/ecitemnet about testing method.

i did not feel the stimulation and could not determine h whether running or not without looking at metter.After final wake up i look to the mettr and see 0,15mA value.

Data form subconscious (purely subjective) THIS DATA ARE ONLY SOMTHING LIKE INTUITION THE CAN BE HELPFULL BUT DEFINTLY NOT BOUD BY THEM THEY MUST BY VERIFICATED BY OTHER METHOD
Dit i hit REM stage by stimulation ? : no 86% of stimulaton in NREM and 10% in wake state only 4% in REM (total stimulation time witch stimulation ON , count also witch ramping periodes 21,5min )
Chance to Ld before stimulation (in planned 2h sleep) : 4,7%
Chance to Ld with this stimulation : 17%
Current: too low - average 32uA/cm2 recomanded 52uA/cm2
Electrode position: miss F3 of about 0,4cm , for right side recomendet in forn of ear possition
20/5 min palalist : not ideal --) measure few hypnograms by EEG and make better if you want science data or wait to subconscious alanised data about a week

I guess some form of initial ramping could be achieved by the actual recorded volume of the mp3 file used, providing the signal to noise ratio and overall quality is high, and there is no transient noise or clicks present in the recording itself.

A bandpass filter (centred @ 40 hz) would probably help reduce that problem, including the issue of 50/60 hz radiated inteference from mains house wiring and other electrical appliances.
You would have to maybe choose your transformer or adapt one to your design, as it would depend on the turns ratio and the quality of it.

For example, you might need to consider adding a failsafe option to your intended design if the primary/secondary wiring ever shorted out on a cheap transformer. (Rare I know but I have seen a frazzled modem after a lightning strike.)

Good testing of wavefrom on osciloscope and current on metter is higly recomended you at least need measure current.Its possible use device without current mesuring but in this cas you dount have any data about used stimulation.

For usage you need do test on leg and on head during the day.

Test on LEG
*setup device to lowes volume
*start signal
*turn on device
*conncet electrodes
*slowly increase volume on aplyfiler to momnet when you feel something never use more than 80% volume on signal source or amplyfiler becuse it usualy distort the signal
*now lower volume below fealing level usualy with some reserve ,its usualy about 20% decrease
*another info you can get form my other tests

I think it be possible use soundcard es osciloscope to test signal but need some chnges hi voltage from transformer will problay fry it. Testing signal in osciloscole for this simple sine wave it not needet but formore complex ones in future is recomenedet.

Transformator i used 230V to 9V 50hz . Its build for 50hz so work well with 40hz sinus and other in frequencies is effectivity worse.
Usage of 110V is also posible but volatge be lower it depend of electrdes and its resistance .
Also you can encounter many types of trenaformtors i use one directly form slpeaker it possible use diferent ones its best use bare tranformator not encased ones in some cased they may maybe have some electronics like diode bridge (not tested) . Also teh ycan be like 230V to 3V to factor by 3x more than mine this not the problem important is current higher voltage is not problem. Output of this type can be even 100V .

Current measurment i dont have now digital ammeter so i can test if it usable to measure very low current defitly fork good to 0,5mA but current in uA may be a problem.

If tranformer shorted out its still not big poroblem becouse source of amplyfiler is only 9V battery.

Originally Posted by ATA

If tranformer shorted out its still not big poroblem becouse source of amplyfiler is only 9V battery.

If a 9v battery shorted out it could cause a fire.

I mentioned in my previous post about the cheapo transformer as a worst case scenario, for example if someone designed their bespoke system via a laptop running from an adaptor or a mains powered PC.

Laminations on windings can also deteriorate or fail due to corrosion, faults in design or manufacture, etc. resulting in either an open or short circuit condition (depending on the cause.)

At one place I worked we had to x-ray the modem transformers on the board to check the wiring as it was impossible to check by eye.
There were some faulty batches made which failed in the field, (as in end user.) Albeit o/c.

We don't want anybody off here winning the Darwin awards!

To 9V battery make a fire is possible but very uprobable it must shortcircut by some thin wire very close to battery ,shortcircut somewhere in amplyfiler is also possible but risk of fire is there much lower.
Good idea is measure trasformator if its ok even if it shorcircut it not give more current and voltage will be low .Even worst case scenario where 9V battery is connected directly to elctrodes is safe if electrodes are OK.
Worst case scenario possble is amplyfiler to max volume and bare wires or 9V and bare fires with contact of skin this can cause skin burns and be very paitfull but isnt enought to kill you and chnace of damage to the brain is also very minimal even in this very extreme condition.

Everything must by powered by battery no mains chance to malfunction is very very low but current from mains is enough to kill you.

from Luciding:We shall not use electrodes from past photos (we already changed them). There will be update soon describing all our materials.
We are using different electrodes for eeg and tdcs. We need 5 of them, as we tested out our methods with various quality of reading eeg and pushing signals, and that's how we optimized this processes.
We are all extremely looking forward to see all your feedback about this positions, when you will get the devices, but right now this is the best way of usage.

*they mistype tACS for tDCS

Originally Posted by ATA

from Luciding:We shall not use electrodes from past photos (we already changed them). There will be update soon describing all our materials.
We are using different electrodes for eeg and tdcs. We need 5 of them, as we tested out our methods with various quality of reading eeg and pushing signals, and that's how we optimized this processes.
We are all extremely looking forward to see all your feedback about this positions, when you will get the devices, but right now this is the best way of usage.

*they mistype tACS for tDCS

Das this sound like a technical response to you?
What I get from this is that they have no idea what they are doing.... and is it mistyping or mis-knowing?

I hope it is just mistype or that it's because that every member of the team not have a knowdedge on all areas but write wron mout important thing about technology
They have idea what they doing but only idea not the needed level of knowledge and experience. Well its take time but they start preorder too early .From my stant poit they need at lest another half year to make good and well tested device.

I plan do my test every 2-3 dayes .Now i go learn little bit more knowledge about the tACS (search for any study about effect of varyous waveform type on brain waves synchonization)

Originally Posted by thewolf16

... oscilator to controll the waves?

As Kaan has already pointed out, no oscilator is needed. That's the whole point and the good thing about Petr's design: this clever setup, converts any simple audio signal (from a phone or mp3) to an electrical stimulation signal! So, all you need, is a free program like audacity, to make a 40hz sine wave audio file (if need help on this, just say) that will be converted to stimulation by the device! You can also experiment with other audio signals - eg square waves, saw-like waves and such, and also add fade-in, fade-out to the audio, that will be converted to stimulation!

Originally Posted by thewolf16

And how do you controll the current intensity?

Either from the phone/mp3 volume (as I did) or the PCSpeaker volume. It is that easy!
Just keep it low: After you feel sth, lower it a little bit, and you are ready,

Originally Posted by thewolf16

At step 3: Do you need to get the signal from the speaker or the board?

From the speaker. Just cut the wires before they connect to the speaker and connect them to the low voltage end of the transformer.

Originally Posted by thewolf16

How do you connect the cables to the low voltage end (without soldering)?

There are many options here. If it is an old PC speaker that you do not need anymore, you can just cut the wires of the low voltage end, and connect them with the speaker wires - but adding a little solder to any wire connection, secures the connection, it is not that hard: youtube has a lot of easy tutorials how to solder!
The other thing to do - without damaging anything- is to use a "transformer connector block" to make the connection (search ebay for this as links are not allowed, or even better, go to a local electronics store to be sure it is a match for your transformer).
What I did, was take the connector of an old scanner that was a fit, and used it...

Originally Posted by thewolf16

Does every power adapter works?

As Petr said, almost any will do - internal better than external (as I did).
But, because we use it in reverse, if the output is very low (say 3V), then connecting it in Reverse, will result in very high voltage.
So, I would suggest to use a 9-12 v transformer.
Connection to the internal transformer as well as all the other steps, are described by Petr at his post No 142.

Originally Posted by thewolf16

And can i use this cable (of an non-functional cheap tens device):
with these electrodes?:

The image is quite dark, but I suppose you can!
It would be cheaper though, to buy a new Chinese tens machine (in Aliexpress they start from 8€ with shipping and they have wires, electrodes and connector block that you can take appart from the machine ).

Originally Posted by ATA

They have idea what they doing but only idea not the needed level of knowledge and experience. Well its take time but they start preorder too early .From my stant poit they need at lest another half year to make good and well tested device.

That would be the best case scenario... And although I doubt that this is the case, I hope you are right!


Regarding my trials now, 4th night with no results... I have changed electrode position and used 4 electrodes in the original study's positions, held by a headstrap. No Lucidity, and no increased Dream recall.
I wonder if I am doing sth wrong, or simply the DreamZ app misses REM sleep.
I am thinking the next nights, to use my setup as a time delay relay - play a silent file for say 40 min, then the 10khz for 8min (relay activation) and loop... so I will have more changes of hitting REM than with DreamZ app...let's see what we get!

Thank you for your help

I think the DreamZ app misses the REM sleep. The app tracks your movements and calculate the moment you are in REM sleep. This is very inaccurate because the app can only track if youre in light sleep, deep sleep or awake. The Rem detection is just a calculation of these data and the time you are asleep. This is very inaccurate (also because the rem-sleep of every human is kinda different). The results can depend of the type of your mattress too. This is the most inexact kind of rem tracking.

Also do not do test every day leave one day pause this is beoause is stimulation couse change of sleep architecture is good have one day to recover it .Is there also chance tahat in night without stimulation can have different dream recall an LD count than normal.

Hit the REM can be porblemtic witch accelerometer detection but is there a chance that hit REM is not needet in all types of stimulaton.

Waveform i try to serch about other types of waveform used by tACS but found nothing everyone use sinus stimulation.

it may be possible to find some information by search CES (cranil electro stimulation) they used different wave forms but mostly they are commercial devices and info is not aviable .Usage of ters waveforms dount usualy have any scinece backing and they use it only to sound new and differed from the competition.

Usage of TENS type of waveform i didnd found any relevant scinece data yet so hard to say what it is doing .

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I try write some small article about theory of LD induction by tACS becouse no good with all needet data exist yet.There are question about stimulation that are not answered even in dr Voss artile but are very relevant for construction of device.

First of manny questiones is what functions we want to turn on and its connections to parts of brain and brainwaves.

Originally Posted by thewolf16

I think the DreamZ app misses the REM sleep. The app tracks your movements and calculate the moment you are in REM sleep.

Yes, I know. I just had some experience with the app, and it seemed that it did a good job for me. Nevertheless, these last nights it let me down... Some of the triggering happened while I was wide awake....
I do however suspect the reason... it has to be ON the whole night for accurate tracking. However I use it as a vibrating alarm for WBTB and then start the app, so it does miscalculation... I have to find another silent alarm, and have the app running all night long!

Originally Posted by ATA

Also do not do test every day leave one day pause this is beoause is stimulation couse change of sleep architecture is good have one day to recover it .

That is good advice, thanks!

Originally Posted by ATA

...i try to search about other types of waveform used by tACS but found nothing - everyone use sinus stimulation.

Regarding type of waveform for tACS, the original study that started it all, used sine wave stimulation. Nevertheless, no Lucidity (except perhaps in one case) was achieved in this study... Only statistically significant results....
On the other hand, Jeff replicated the experiment and claimed 100% success with LUCIDITY, using two devices: The EV-806 A that produces asymmetric biphasic square pulses, and the Jace tri-stim that produces a similar waveform (not sine wave):
image.jpg
So, this is what I tried... I hope that my failure is due to REM detection failure which I will try to fix the following nights.
We'll see!

Problematic is far more compex nobody counts with interpersonal differences for instance this can make to 100% diff in current in corex level.Size od electrode also change current in brain. few others : current path in brain , ongoing activyty , shunting effects , lenght of stimulation . This is only basic ones thre are many more.

searching for full text :
Theoretical investigation of transcranial alternating current stimulation using realistic head model.


DLPFC


montage in study

3,5x4cm , 14cm2 , 250uA

This information in study is confusing and can be almoust be considered wrong " resulting in maximum current density 18uA/cm2 at the scalp ". They use montage in picture so average current desity is not 18uA/cm2
but 9uA/cm2 . Maximum 18uA/cm2 is only in extreme case where all current go trought one of paired electrodes .

Originally Posted by ATA

searching for full text :
Theoretical investigation of transcranial alternating current stimulation using realistic head model.

Two similar articles with free full text:
Transcranial alternating current stimulation (tACS). - ResearchGate
Theoretical investigation of transcranial alternating current stimulation using laminar model. - ResearchGate

Today test
Result : no LD ,2 dreams , memory below normal

Params:
F3-F4 location
40Hz
4cm2 electrodes
5min stimulation and 20 min silence loop
after 4,5h sleep , lenght of stimultation 4,5h
Current set to 220uA but after sleep it was only 50uA ( porbably some problem with contact or low battery)
Current density 55uA/cm2 set ,morning 12,5uA/cm2

Data form subconscious (purely subjective) :
Dit i hit REM stage by stimulation ? : yes 9min (18%)
Chance to Ld before stimulation sleep : 0,02%
Chance to Ld with stimulation : 0,08%
Current: low - average 12uA/cm2 recomanded 48uA/cm2
*Very small %LD chance caused by interfering subconscious operations . I was repogramming some subconscious setups it take lot of resources and can block chnce to LD. Sepeed od reporgramming was 18x increased after stimulation.

-----
SearcherTMR : tahnks for links i read first one few dayes back second one looks interesting

Two more nights with stimulation.
This time I had the DreamZ app running all night, and after WBTB just attached the electrodes.
Noticed much better dream recall than the intermediate (no stimulation nights) and my best guess is that the stimulation occured during REM sleep. No Lucids though... either Jeff wasn't honest with his results after all, or I am doing sth terribly wrong...
I wish he was still with us to get his feedback!

A friend of mine and I are working on reproducing the results that jeffg and Dr. Voss had. We are building an Arduino device that will output 2mA at 40hz. But after reading this thread I am a bit worried that 2mA might be too high. It even seems like 0,25mA would be too high after reading about SearcherTMR's research. Is that the case?

Originally Posted by unfundable

A friend of mine and I are working on reproducing the results that jeffg and Dr. Voss had. We are building an Arduino device that will output 2mA at 40hz. But after reading this thread I am a bit worried that 2mA might be too high. It even seems like 0,25mA would be too high after reading about SearcherTMR's research. Is that the case?

Hi unfundable!
First, lets make a few things clear: Dr. Voss didn't achieve 70% lucid dreams with her setup. She "defined" lucidity as: "lucid score: average + 2 standard deviations" which definitely doesn't equal Lucidity. Just a statisticaly significant effect, which is a completely different thing...
From the reports , there might have been a few LDs but certainly not even close to 70%...
Take a look at this nice explanation and also in LucidSage's interview.
Jeffg on the other hand, on this Forum, said that he achieved 70% REAL Lucidity and after some time, he made changes that led to 100% lucidity for him!
Although 100% seems extraordinary, he appeared to be quite honest, giving many details of his setup and graphs and also made a donation to Michael from lucidscribe in order for him to replicate the results. Michael has not yet done so, and Jeff is not with us anymore to give more details on his settings and setup...
Luciding also promised 99% lucidity, but of course they proved to be quite dishonest in every way....
As for the current now, I think it is a matter of measurement and the reading on a device knob might be very different from the actual current - measured live.
Dr Voss clarified that the current was below sensory threshold, which means the subjects didn't feel anything during the stimulation. Jeff said 2mA but addressed nothing about the subjective feeling.
So, what I did was simply adjust the amplitude to be barely noticeable - not caring about amplitude readings. My plan was to lower the amplitude to below sensory level for long term use - provided I had good results. Unfortunately that was not the case after all.
I have a few adjustment in mind for next trials, but I am not as excited anymore...