Thread: Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Hi ikky and welcome!
I thought that PEMF devices were quite noisy to sleep nearby.
What about your devices? Are they quiet enough?

Hi FryingMan. Do you by any chance recall this teacher reporting any lucids with his setup?

I was not into LD in high school and I generally avoided that teacher (even though one on one he was a pretty nice guy who helped me a lot).

^^ thanks Frying man, I guess we have to repeat the trials then...

@ ikky:
Your device isn't complicate at all and I might make one if others have success with it, but for now I am quite fed up with my tACS failures at 40hz (I made more than a couple devises but I had almos no success - in multiple trials) so For now I have returned to conventional DILD and WILD trials...
Good luck with your experimentation!

Hi SearcherTMR,

I can absolutely sympathize with your situation (being fed up) because I've experienced the same with all kinds of approaches during the last 20 years. I got the best results when I focused just on mindfulness, reality checks, meditation and WBTB. But the idea of easy access to lucidity by way of gadgets is just too tempting.

^^ I could have written this sum-up post myself!
The only think I could add (for me) is the amazing success I had with Raduga's DEILD - but it soon faded away and I am back at the classic techniques for now...
But yea, auto-lucidity with a gadget is VERY tempting...

Not sure if this has been posted but appearently *Link Removed* company made 40 Hz lucid dreaming stimulation mask or something like that:
Didn't check this out myself yet since it's quite late but you might find this interesting or taking a look worthy

Type in google "*Link Removed* lucid dreams" and go to first result or *Link Removed*

The company name is "foc.us"

No REM detection, just a timer. They claim an accelerometer is in the mask which will be used for more accurate REM detection "in a future update." No data offered on effectiveness.

For such a small device you would need a big wallet. Over $400 dollars for the kit, etc. although the developer's edition is on offer at a reduction of $100.

Personally for starters, I don't like how blasé the v2 (ld) illustration guide is shown on the webpage. It seems too simplistic. Nothing about montage positioning or measurement. I would be disappointed to say the least if you got a diagram like that with your main instructions after your purchase.

You would have to be quite dedicated to the hobby to fork out for an 'experimental' device. It will be interesting to see the reviews on its use.

It seems over-engineered to me. I'm sticking with my trusty arduino, Ic555, etc.

*P.s. If anyone has any tACS related news to share - except for the Luciding fraud updates - please post here to keep this thread alive!*


I have an Oasis pro with 40hz capability. You need to request the 40hz feature from Mindalive when you purchase it or they can send you an audio file by email, then load the 40hz program via a cord with headphone jacks on both ends. I also have it programmed to run for 3 hrs straight. I have used it during WBTB and when I randomly wake up in the middle of the night. I have had zero success. I have searched the net looking for other people who have tried the 40hz TACS method to help induce lucidity and posted their results, but I haven't found anything, especially since Foc.us came out with their TACS device. If this 40hz TACS method is so good as is claimed by Voss in her research, then why aren't more people talking about it? Why hasn't there been another study on the subject since? Why aren't we reading about all the success stories in LD forums? Its been almost two years now since Voss's report. I haven't used the Oasis Pro in a couple weeks now because I got discouraged with it but I think I will start trying it again. There is one thing I'm excited about. Foc.us has a cable pack with four cables with hydrogel pads. So I will put one pad behind each ear and one on each side of the upper forehead just like Voss did but with four pads instead of two. I just need an adapter for the Oasis Pro to the cable pack.

Hi Bbutler and welcome to the forum!
So, you have joined just for the 40hz tACS thread - same as I did quite a while ago...

Originally Posted by Bbutler

... If this 40hz TACS method is so good as is claimed by Voss in her research, then why aren't more people talking about it? Why hasn't there been another study on the subject since? Why aren't we reading about all the success stories in LD forums? Its been almost two years now since Voss's report...

^^ That's because it's not so good at all...
It's all a "lie" of shorts on Voss'es part...
She falsely claimed 70% lucidity with tACS in her paper - and had everyone going after it since - when in fact, the actual percentage was close to zero...
She had already DEFINED lucidity ratings with her own LUCID scale (in previous research papers) and she intentionally rated as "lucid" dreams that were simply normal ones, just to make an impression (fooling everyone) ... and she did...
So, the truth is that 40hz tACS stimulation in that study, led to statistically significant changes in "LUCID" scale ratings, but far from enough to make subjects truly lucid - in other words, 40hz tACS might slightly increase the chances of lucidity but by no means will make someone lucid just like that....
As for new studies, some might in fact be running - it's not a matter of months to publish new high-quality studies..
Regarding trials from individuals now, the results are always the same: zero or close to zero (including my trials that are documented in this thread). The only individual who had success with it was Jeff (results n this thread) - but he turned out to have used Galantamin as well - so far from credible tACS success..
As for the "for sale" devices, luciding's first devices are surprisingly already shipped to a few customers (including our member Wolf) but as expected, the results were not impressive at all...
Focus is an absolute joke with no REM detection, no trials and no testimonies (in fact they should give it for free to testers at this point...) and Lucid Sage's device still in design...
So, yes, not much is happening with 40hz tACS- but the issue is: should there be, or should we just realize that we were all fooled by dr Voss...

Hello SearcherTMR, thanks for the welcome.

I've spent a lot of time reading posts on this forum learning all I can. Right now I'm doing ADA with meditation before bed and SSILD when I wake up in the middle of the night. I've tried all sorts of herbs, pills and I have several sleep masks. When I read your post I had to reply, needed to vent some frustration regarding the TACS device ha. I agree with you on Voss's Paper and I believe she should of also used experienced lucid dreamers, because a first timer my have just dreamed of being lucid. She should have tested more people too. Also, her "Lucid scale" is based on a subjective answer from the test subject, a subject that has never had a lucid dream before the test. But I do not believe we should disregard Voss's paper just yet, at least until someone else has tried to replicate the results. Based on Voss's paper; Insight and Dissociation were the two values in her "factor analysis" that stood out from the rest when 40hz was applied. Insight is essentially awareness and dissociation is seeing yourself or the dream scene in a third person. Sooo, perhaps if one was to be proficient in awareness during the day(ADA, meditation?) and performed RC's involving dissociation somehow then maybe better results could be achieved? From my personal experience this 40hz TACS method is starting to seem too good to be true but I don't want to give up yet. Think I'll keep trying every once in a while, see if ADA/meditation has any effect.

Originally Posted by Bbutler

... Insight and Dissociation were the two values in her "factor analysis" that stood out from the rest when 40hz was applied...

Ok, both factors were affected by the stimulation - but look more close as they say for magic tricks...
Insight and dissociation ratings were indeed increased by the stimulation - and 70% of the dreams were rated as "Lucid".
But was the increase enough to induce lucidity? Unfortunately no...
The LUCID scale was created by Voss herself and the ratings were 0-5 for each factor (strongly disagree to strongly agree) and for the single most significant factor for lucidity (insight that one is dreaming - that actually defines LDs) non lucids averaged 1 and lucids 3:
image.jpg
So, were ratings of 3 (or above) reached with 40hz stimulation for the factor "insight"?
Nope... it remained less than 1 (!!!)... that is : strongly disagree that I now that I am dreaming....
image.jpg
Statistically significant increase with the stimulation - yes, but clinically and practically totally insignificant... I am sorry but that's the truth about it.
So, why did Voss labeled these normal dreams as "Lucids" and claimed 70% lucidity when she achieved zero?..... I guess just to make it to headlines...
I did what I did because of Jeff's success - but when I learned that he used galantamin as well.... the 40hz tACS bubble was off for good...

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

I guess just to make it to headlines...

That's probably true, unfortunately.

I did not realize the low ratings on the charts that you posted at first when I originally read them. But now that you pointed them out, it make Voss's claims of lucidity more speculative at the least if not fraudulent. Wonder how many other people also missed that little detail. Less than 1 one her own "lucid scale" for insight at 40hz certainly isn't good, abysmal actually. Thanks for clearing that up SearcherTMR

I think it´s very hard to interpret a study as a a non-psychologist. Yes, the scale is too low to speak from full blown lucidity. But it´s just because the test-subjects didn´t know about lucid dreaming. If they knew about the subject, the little nudge would be enough so they could improve the lucidity (and awareness) with techniques like rubbing their hands together or spinning around. Because they didn´t do the techniques, the awareness was much lower than in normal lucid dreams but much higher than in normal dreams. But the most important things are the experiences: We heard from jeffg (a trusted member in this forum) that it works. The newest experiences are really exciting: Some guy works on a tacs headband named "LdreamM". It´s not just support tacs, but also eeg recording, lucid dreaming triggering with sounds played when the headband detects REM sleep, it can wake you after REM sleep (which makes it a effective WBTB helper and helps you to wake up refreshed), you can even use it when you are awake for biofeedback etc.. At first the lucid dream triggering with tacs wasn´t too effective because the electrodes impedance was too high. Now, with the right kind of electrodes he was able to get 2 lucid dreams in the first night. But he didn´t used the tacs stimulation as usual while he was asleep, he used it while he was awake 14 hours before he went to bed. He did the same thing yesterday and was able to archive 6 (!) lucid dreams in one night. But the most exciting thing is: He don´t make this all for profit. You can read his story here: *Link removed*

Originally Posted by thewolf16

He don´t make this all for profit. You can read his story here: *Link removed*

You make some interesting points. Sorry the link was removed for being "commercial." Would be curious to read it.

Interesting news indeed. I am the first to get excited with a truly working auto-lucidity device (that's why I build my own tACS device) but I am afraid this is not the case here as it was not in Dr Vosse's trials...

Originally Posted by thewolf16

...We heard from jeffg (a trusted member in this forum) that it works...

Nope, it didn't.
He admitted to use Galantamine as well, so all the success might very well be from it...

Originally Posted by thewolf16

...Some guy works on a tacs headband named "LdreamM". ....He don´t make this all for profit. You can read his story here: *Link removed*

I have read his whole website very carefully and with much interest, but it is obviously a typical FOR profit site, and although he says he started for himself, he now sells his device for 300$... that is FOR profit for sure...

Originally Posted by thewolf16

...At first the lucid dream triggering with tacs wasn´t too effective because the electrodes impedance was too high. Now, with the right kind of electrodes he was able to get 2 lucid dreams in the first night....

The only info available in his web site is the opposite: the first nights his sleep quality was low, he woke up multiple times (WBTB) and had many lucids. But as the convenience increased, the LDs due to tACS alone became....zero.
image.jpg
It's actually strange he admits that: "...the number of Lucid Dreaming per night became zero using simple tACS stimuli." He says he is expecting the new electrodes but has no news about it. Was it in a blog or something you got these news? Anyway, we should keep in mind that he had similar success with the previous electrodes, but only in the beginning. When the excitement-discomfort factor was over and 40hz stimulation remained as the only factor, the success rate became consistent with every other honest tACS report: Zero...
Btw, Wolf16, you promised photos and a report as soon as you got the device from Luciding (which btw looks very much alike with this guys) but you posted nothing - apart from the brief "customer report" in Luciding FB. Did they forbid you to post here about it?

A couple of more optimistic points:

First, as to LdreamM, while it might be for profit, the blog posts where he reports some disappointing results at least suggest he's not a shyster.

Second, as for Voss's results, yes, the effect she got was fairly small on the key measure, and it was misleadingly described as inducing lucidity 77% of the time. But note a few things (some of which have been pointed out above):

a. The subjects were all non-lucid dreamers. It is entirely possible that with subjects practiced in LDing, the results would be better.

b. It is plausible that several parameters could have a huge impact on effectiveness: frequency of tACS burst, length of tACS burst, power/amplitude of tACS burst. And maybe others. The only one that was explored so far has been frequency, and that exploration was successful. It found the frequencies that seem to have the best effectiveness. That's good science. For all we know, small alterations to power/amplitude or length of burst could have a huge effect. But good science proceeds one factor at a time.

c. Even if (as seems improbable), the process can't be made any more effective by optimizing other factors, keep in mind that the results were reported for subjects who had exactly 1 burst, and were awakened whether they liked it or not 2 minutes later. And with that very circumscribed intervention there was still a statistically significant result, with at least some of the subjects (remember, non-lucid dreamers) actually reporting that they knew they were dreaming. Of course a device designed to help people achieve lucidity wouldn't be limited to only one burst per night, and wouldn't wake the person up after 2 minutes. It might deliver a burst once every 3 or 5 minutes for as long as the subject is in REM. How many burst would this be, with how many chances to achieve lucidity? Even if we assume only 1 hour of REM sleep, that could be 10 to 20 chances per night to trigger lucidity.

When you step back and look at the potential here it seems to justify at least some optimism. Combining the points above, consider a device that i) was being used by experienced lucid dreamers (as opposed to non-LDers), ii) had other parameters besides just frequency tuned to optimal effectiveness, and iii) would effect its intervention dozens of times per night (as opposed to only once). Would a device like that be solidly effective? Maybe, maybe not. But the situation doesn't seem to be one that forces pessimism.

I guess one reason I want to point this out is that if people prematurely adopt an overly pessimistic attitude, that might dissuade people from doing the continued exploration that very could have resulted in some effective tech had they continued.

Good points.
I basically agree with what you said - and I am not trying to be pessimistic but simply objective.
My main point was that the assumption we all have about tACS stimulation was wrong: dr Voss's claims had as all believe that we could easily make a tACS device and gain instant lucidity - at least 77%. Unfortunately this was not the case (even in dr Vosse's tests) and it has been proven ineffective by many experiments up to now - including mine and many other's, even with different settings and multiple stimulations as you suggest. Of course it may very well be possible to have good results at some point by continuing the experiments and trying different variables - one at a time - but it's not as easy and straightforward as most of us thought it was...
And as I said, I will be the first one to be excited if a successful device or protocol is finally a reality!

Hi Everybody, I have just found your forum. My name is Tibor Pajer, I am the developer of LdreamM headset. After reading all the posts in this thread, let me share with you my points about the development, the financial issues and experiments.

Let’s start with the development: You are all enthusiasts of LD and a few of you tried the tACS stimuli with zero success, except jeffg, but this is not a clear situation either. You know, somehow your attitude – on my opinion - is not good enough. You tried to use some extremely simple electronics and very basic measurements during a few nights. In most cases even the electrode replacements were not exactly as in Dr Ursula Voss’s experiment. And are you disappointed with zero results? This is not a simple 1-2 days run. Everything should be well developed, tested, redeveloped, retested and so on. You think so perhaps, that if one of you does one experiment, the other one does another and if you share the results, than you can shortcut many trials, testing, disappointments. Unfortunately this is not the case. No one of you has even developed a stable device, which could be used regularly in many-many nights. And THIS IS THE VERY BASIC of the experiments. Many of you do not measure the brain waves, either. You are just guessing about the right timing of tACS stimuli. And as I mentioned, you gave up experimenting after a few nights.
From this perspective, do you still thinks so, that you should have had success in your endeavor?

And know about the financial issues: If you want to do a really good testing device, than it takes a lot of time AND money!! Please, understand me right, but again, your attitude was wrong, when you wanted to do a simple electronics with a few electrodes as cheap as it just possible ($20 to $40). For the very first experiments that is an excellent idea, indeed, but you already before the very first physical action killed the whole think in your mind. You should see it clearly, that for the big things you should think big. I am not talking about the marketing and the other stuffs. I am not interested in it, as well as you. I am talking about the real persistency, the real driving forces, and the big ideas about the future of Lucid Dreaming in your life particularly. If you would have big day dreams, than you would not restricted your goals for some awkward tryings. With almost zero investments of your time, money, enthusiasm and skills you get almost zero in return!!
Some of you mentioned, that I am for money, as well as the other companies. Than unfortunately my personality could not penetrate through your minds. This should be my error. For clarity, please take in consideration, that till now I have invested a few years, actually many-many THOUSANDS of hours of my free time and THOUSANDS of dollars for experiments from my own pocket. I do not have investors, did not sell the LdreamM headsets before reaching any successful results. How than can you compare me with other companies?? Think about that, please!! You know, as well as I know that there is not such a big market for these devices. But if you express your gratitude for my research buying a working device (I do not have it yet), than you could help my further researches, and you could benefit from that, too.
You mentioned that I have admitted the unsuccessful tACS stimuli experiments, and that was strange for some of you. I understand that other companies just telling nice stories about theirs devices, without any actual evidences, which should be a warning for an open eyed person.
If you are really enthusiasts of LD, than why do not contacted to me directly, as other people do? Why do not you join the LdreamM forum on FB? May be, there you could see much more experiments and measuring results, that are not yet on my website?
So, please do not give up the hope, follow your experiments or at least do not be so pessimistic. May be, LdreamM will not be able to induce LDs, but at least I tried seriously. And if we do something seriously, than we have much higher chances to success!

thewolf16: Thank you very much for your laudatory words!

Once again: you are all welcome to the LdreamM forum on FB, if you are interested on the latest results.

^^ You're absolutely right about not giving up easily after a few trials. I personally can't wait to see the extensive, multi-month studies with hundreds of subjects across a spectrum of prior LDing experience on your device, of course with proper study controls like placebo controls. After all, that's what a serious product would have, right?

Show us no-BS, clear data / results, performed with good science, and the LDing community will most likely flock to your product. Can't wait to see the data.

Hi Tibor,
Since you are basically referring to my comments, I guess I have to reply...

Originally Posted by LdreamM

...You tried to use some extremely simple electronics and very basic measurements during a few nights.... This is not a simple 1-2 days run....

Of course you are right about that. That's what we (basically I) did, and yes, that's not how a proper experiment should be done. But let me remind you that it was not supposed to be an experiment: It should be a simple replication of dr Voss's amazing success (77% lucidity induction in unexperienced subjects)! Her paper had us all believe that we could simply zap our prefrontal area with 40hz tACS and gain instant lucidity. Unfortunately, as you already know, this was simply dishonest on her part, not true at all, and none of us got instant lucidity. Actually if you read the thread carefully, some people did much more complicated devices than I did, but the results were always (apart from jeffg that used galantamine) zero in the short run of the trials. Of course if you keep experimenting there is always a possibility that at some point you will have good results, but personally, I don't have the time, the money or the knowledge ... I wish you good luck with that!

Originally Posted by LdreamM

.... I am talking about the real persistency, the real driving forces, and the big ideas about the future of Lucid Dreaming in your life particularly...

This was supposed to be an easy way to induce Lucidity! That's why we are after it. If we are to try hard, persisting for a long time, then why go for tACS? Try DEILD or SSILD. Almost every lucid dream induction technique gives excellent results if you are persistent...

Originally Posted by LdreamM

Some of you mentioned, that I am for money, as well as the other companies...

Scientists like dr Voss do not sell devices. They pay for their experiments and they also pay for the results to get published...
Developing and selling a product, is by definition for profit. But of course that's not bad - it's just something not allowed in this forum... You can very well sell a product and be honest and legit unlike other companies.

Originally Posted by LdreamM

... Why do not you join the LdreamM forum on FB? May be, there you could see much more experiments and measuring results, that are not yet on my website?...

And I was wandering where did thewolf16 find your last results... Thanks for letting us know - but I wonder: 1. Why don't you have a link for the FB page in your web site so it's easy for all to find?
2. Why is it a private forum? Why should this info be kept from everyone else?

Originally Posted by LdreamM

... May be, LdreamM will not be able to induce LDs, but at least I tried seriously...

So, even after all those experiments, you still don't have persistent, good results... but I really do hope that at some point you will, and you will share them with us!

Nope, it didn't.
He admitted to use Galantamine as well, so all the success might very well be from it...

Sorry, i didn´t know that he used Galantamine as well. So we don´t know if all the success was from the tacs device or galantamine, you are right.

I have read his whole website very carefully and with much interest, but it is obviously a typical FOR profit site, and although he says he started for himself, he now sells his device for 300$... that is FOR profit for sure...

It depends on how you define "for profit". It´s clear that he can´t send us a device for free. You have to count in the material costs, the effort to plan it and assemble all the prototypes and all the freetime he spends on this product. And we all have to pay bills. But mainly he do it for the lucid dreaming community, that´s for sure!

My definition of "making profit" is to make big money for a luxurious life. Tibor isn´t after that! He´s not greedy like other companys, and that´s one of his attributes why i respect him and his work.

The only info available in his web site is the opposite: the first nights his sleep quality was low, he woke up multiple times (WBTB) and had many lucids. But as the convenience increased, the LDs due to tACS alone became....zero.
Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz-image.jpg
It's actually strange he admits that: "...the number of Lucid Dreaming per night became zero using simple tACS stimuli." He says he is expecting the new electrodes but has no news about it. Was it in a blog or something you got these news? Anyway, we should keep in mind that he had similar success with the previous electrodes, but only in the beginning. When the excitement-discomfort factor was over and 40hz stimulation remained as the only factor, the success rate became consistent with every other honest tACS report: Zero...

You´re right. The first lucid dreams were because of the inconvenience effect and a resulting WBTB. When the convenience increased the lucid dreams decreased so he could tell that the lucid dreams were not a effect of the tacs stimulation. But he realized that the impedance of the electrodes was to high and he ordered different electrodes. Although he didn´t used it like Dr.Voss (he used it in the day, several hours before he slept) he had success: 2 LDs in the first night and 6 LDs in the second night. I know, it´s not a proof but a sign that it could work. In his latest facebook post he said that he spoke with a russian man who was experimenting with lucid dreaming induction as well. He told him that the recommendet frequency differs from person to person because anatomical differences. (

"the 40 Hz for all of the people is simple ridiculous."

) That´s why further investigation and experimenting is important. You can see all of his newest updates on the official facebook-page, it´s very interesting to read. (hope it won´t be removed):

*** Link Removed ***

Btw, Wolf16, you promised photos and a report as soon as you got the device from Luciding (which btw looks very much alike with this guys) but you posted nothing - apart from the brief "customer report" in Luciding FB. Did they forbid you to post here about it?

Oh sorry, i forget that. Well, what can i say? It was very dissapointing. They send us the version 1 of the headband. Almost everyone had a lucid dream in the first night (including me), but then it suddenly stopped working for almost everyone. Now i can say it just worked because of placebo or the unconvenience effect and the resulting WBTB, something which Tibor realized with his Ldreamm prototypes too. Luciding told us at first that the firmware was faulty. The founder of Luciding in person came to us customers to update the firmware. (which is highly unusual because it´s a very long trip from siberia to germany) But after they updated the FW it still didn´t worked for everyone. Then they told us it´s because a faulty batch of accumulators. Because Luciding couldn´t update my FW because of a faulty updater, they send me a new one with the new Firmware and even with a new accumulator (which was broken for the other customer; i was not the only one who received the new batch with new accumulators). When we got the new batch of Luciding devices it did worked again for the first night for almost everyone and then it suddenly stopped. They told us it´s because of the flexible boards (they have a very weak durability) and they are working on new, not flexible (and more durable) boards. Now we customers have to play the waiting game again until the new devices are ready.

Thanks for the report. Based on what you're saying it does seem as though there's some reason for hope. If every time whey send a new one it works the first night, then that suggests that there is a replicable effect there, even if something is preventing continued success (like a flexible PC board that breaks after one session of use). Fingers crossed, and thanks again for the report. Interesting stuff.

The time to get excited is if/when someone's *long-term* LD frequency jumps from say 20% to 80+%. First night results can be basically thrown away. With the devices so fragile to start with, it's entirely likely all results were pure placebo.