A written abstract journal

apply pressure on the impact of interst in the middle game to position yourself in a way to control the middle ground as has there will be in a sense to communicate the rivalry in conjunction why the pope has gone to the streets in an effort to abandon his people in a mocking ceremony tribal instinct to read the affidavit in court over who will rule the king at the end of your pain of a conflict of interest to bloom in a flower and brighten up the room and make it better than a dull prosperous and unique aperatess from the tall order of the courts giving the

the sea is calm
no waves to rise
must focus conscious
for to appear



That is from about 3 minutes. Seems I must focus on something for any thought to arise. I even sat here with eyes open observing the dogs, birds and such moving out in the yard and saw no thoughts arise. just an empty seeing.

I will play with this more.

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Originally Posted by Howie

The Idea>
To relax and meditate until you have random thoughts in your head. No noises no interruptions I am not going to focus on any particular thought. I will not think about what I am thinking. Just write!
The draw backs are that I cannot type well and I have to keep my eyes open to do so. What I did when I reached the state of consciousness I was after was to just give a blank stare at the monitor and let the thoughts flow.
sleep it took too long to get into a hynagogia state.


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Howie, this had me contemplating all afternoon while at work.

I have written pages of material , letters to editors of local papers, and much of a 40-50 pages of "dharma" writing or notes, using much the same idea or method you outline above.
What I usually end up doing is writing and then going back and just "cleaning up" what was written. Sometimes I feel astonished at what I wrote, as if it were someone elses work I was reading. I havnt written much in the last few months, been preoccupied with other things.

Today, prompted by this thread of yours, I watched my mind all afternoon. Looked to see what arose and where it came from. Seems when I clear my mind in meditation, its not so much cleaint the mind as it is letting go of it, hence no thoughts arise.
Then I noticed that If I engage the mind and meditate on an opening
thought, that is when more arises on/from the mind.
I also noticed that when the opening thought is of a memory, or placed on some future context, its as if the flood gates open and all sorts of thoughts arise. Mostly memories and then variations off of them. Its like getting lost in a maze to follow them. Getting out means disengaging the mind and returning
to the awareness of the moment. Ones breathing, or what is seen around oneself. Very interesting and valuable observations. Much to explore here.

I have more to say, but need to dwell on it some more first.....well,

One thing was a question as to whether the thoughts arising are truly random? Even the liittle tid bits that arose in my previous post above, seemed sponsored or primed by a thought of watching to see what thoughts arise.

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Howie, this had me contemplating all afternoon while at work.

I have written pages of material , letters to editors of local papers, and much of a 40-50 pages of "dharma" writing or notes, using much the same idea or method you outline above.
What I usually end up doing is writing and then going back and just "cleaning up" what was written. Sometimes I feel astonished at what I wrote, as if it were someone elses work I was reading. I havnt written much in the last few months, been preoccupied with other things.

Today, prompted by this thread of yours, I watched my mind all afternoon. Looked to see what arose and where it came from. Seems when I clear my mind in meditation, its not so much cleaint the mind as it is letting go of it, hence no thoughts arise.
Then I noticed that If I engage the mind and meditate on an opening
thought, that is when more arises on/from the mind.
I also noticed that when the opening thought is of a memory, or placed on some future context, its as if the flood gates open and all sorts of thoughts arise. Mostly memories and then variations off of them. Its like getting lost in a maze to follow them. Getting out means disengaging the mind and returning
to the awareness of the moment. Ones breathing, or what is seen around oneself. Very interesting and valuable observations. Much to explore here.

I have more to say, but need to dwell on it some more first.....well,

One thing was a question as to whether the thoughts arising are truly random? Even the liittle tid bits that arose in my previous post above, seemed sponsored or primed by a thought of watching to see what thoughts arise.

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Thanks for your input ND. An interesting take and thoughts on the entire concept. Sorry to respond so late. Responding late to this thread in part has some implications to your question.
Are they random thoughts? I don't rightfully know. I don't know if any thoughts are random in a pure sense of the word. One reason I only post in this journal on random occasions is because is does take a certain mind frame, for me at least.
As described in earlier posts, I have to be in a meditative state for my thoughts to "flow", as you put it. To do it otherwise and labor over thought
itself takes a more cognitive direction that I'm trying to steer away from.
Random, fleeting thoughts.

Also I too am very surprised at what is written as I go back and look at what I have posted. Though I can usually associate freely many of the written thoughts together to form some underlying thoughts and feelings.

Have you had time to dwell on your thoughts?
True thoughtless consciousness, flow and pure awareness would be an amazing step for me personally. Because I have obtained this...lack of thought on rare occasions I know what it is like but have yet found away to tap into it on my own will through meditative techniques or other methods.
At least I know it IS there to achieve - consciousness in pure form. A free mind unconditioned.

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Originally Posted by Howie

Have you had time to dwell on your thoughts?
True thoughtless consciousness, flow and pure awareness would be an amazing step for me personally. Because I have obtained this...lack of thought on rare occasions I know what it is like but have yet found away to tap into it on my own will through meditative techniques or other methods.
At least I know it IS there to achieve - consciousness in pure form. A free mind unconditioned.

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Depends on what thoughts you are referring to I guess.

The thoughts that arise as I described above are so in tune with my inner being, or inner perception, feelings , or what have you, that there is no dwelling on those needed. Its like the words that arise are a perfect match for where I am "inside" in that moment that they arise.

If when writing I find myself dwelling on what is being written, or having to think of what words to use, I know then and there that I have lost my "meditative connection" to what is "self arising". This is the first time I have really looked at this process, or examined it, so I am just tossing this out as a first impression really, so please forgive any "choppiness" or incongruity.

Years ago I had a dream that was very powerful, that left lasting impressions. The main theme left by that dream was a thought or a concept of "thought without words". To this day I am still playing around with this, still dwelling on it.
I have found that this premise is related directly to this being able to write in the manner we are talking about. As I said earlier, when I reach a meditative calm in regards to the mind, as if I am watching it, not participating, I then reach out with a thought, no words, mainly feelings and imagery, hard to describe well off hand, but its like I just barely "kiss" the mind with this intent. It seems that this is what primes what arises in the form of words.
I realize this may be of little help to you, but thats how I describe it at the moment, off the cuff.

Also, I want to state that I have not ever had or sought to have any ordered instruction on meditative practice. I just kind of found my own way and therefore am not hung up on this or that practice or method. I spent alot of time last summer in my garden swing just being there with nature, looking without dividing or differentiating with the mind. That helped to bring about an emptiness in the mind and the beginning of being able to detatch from it, to what is culminating in me now. I'm not sure where it is leading, but I am intent of just following day by day and seeing where it goes.

If you read some of the short lined poetic sort of stuff I write that is directed in and around alot of Clouds writing, this is the sort of writing we are talking about. What I have written in the topic on "die to live" in the religion forum is also a product of this here being discussed.

Its strange, but I feel so very alive and empowered when I write in this manner. Its as if the writing is alive and this body doing the writing is only a part of its happening. Its as if that which "I am" is centered in the words arising themselves. Very interesting, very strange by comparrison to the usual.

if i were to again have sex do it feel would i such attachment my barrier these words so deceiving i breathe emotionless apathetic beyond pleasure to bliss emotion sucked to a core nothing.


It seems as if it starts out as a few words then trails off towards symbolism for me.

This meditative contemplation seems to fold into dream rapidly.

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Originally Posted by ClouD

if i were to again have sex do it feel would i such attachment my barrier these words so deceiving i breathe emotionless apathetic beyond pleasure to bliss emotion sucked to a core nothing.


It seems as if it starts out as a few words then trails off towards symbolism for me.

This meditative contemplation seems to fold into dream rapidly.

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For me the dream seems to unfold from symbolism into the words...

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

For me the dream seems to unfold from symbolism into the words...

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That is interesting. What circumstance may differ in my meditation to yours? Perhaps therein lies a clue?

edit* i start of thinking, then enter a meditative state through conscious seperation of thoughts from mind. (in this case)

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Originally Posted by ClouD

That is interesting. What circumstance may differ in my meditation to yours? Perhaps therein lies a clue?

edit* i start of thinking, then enter a meditative state through conscious seperation of thoughts from mind. (in this case)

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:) i never really looked at what was being done as far as a meditative practice, i just found myself doing it.
As i stated above, i never have had any any ordered instruction on meditative practice. i just kind of found my own way and therefore am not hung up on this or that practice or method. i never gave any real thought, no verbal desrption to what was being done.

Looking at what is happening, the descrption i would use would be that i find myself "disengaging" from the mind to begin with. Just letting go of it.
From there it gets harder to describe......

Absence of the mind

Awareness rises

Focused inward

Emptiness, the canvas waits

Take the brush

Make the stroke

Ever so softly, ever so subtle

No words, no thought

Being, see the picture, be it

Grace the mind, wash over it

Emptiness gives way

Words arise

Howie,

i dont know how to adequately describe the observations i have regarding this process.

One point noticed is that the "strength" of and clarity of the words arising seems related to the "I" sense present or lack thereof.

When there is a clear notion of "I" the process seems disabled. As this notion fades the process begins to gain strength, clarity arises, and words flow.


The best example is when answering, or directing the mind towards the thoughts or questions of another individual.

Do you know what i mean?

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Howie,

i dont know how to adequately describe the observations i have regarding this process.

One point noticed is that the "strength" of and clarity of the words arising seems related to the "I" sense present or lack thereof.

When there is a clear notion of "I" the process seems disabled. As this notion fades the process begins to gain strength, clarity arises, and words flow.


The best example is when answering, or directing the mind towards the thoughts or questions of another individual.

Do you know what i mean?

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I'm not so sure what you mean. :P

As our ego or self - me or I.......
When our egoistic entity is an influence it hinders the clearest form of this process?

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Originally Posted by Howie

I'm not so sure what you mean. :P

As our ego or self - me or I.......
When our egoistic entity is an influence it hinders the clearest form of this process?

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Thats basically it, but there are things here in need of further defining with this "I" sense", and its influence/relation to the process, that are so subtle that they almost defy recognition.

i will keep playing with this and observe as i do

cover up the act of the bias to the emblem of balnce the theater ask the amn to noble in his secrecy to adorn those who ilist in the adjacent room to follow the hipocrites in the fallacy section of the news to report the htme the room of hope is torn in segments to cry for the good of the people who are murderd with the abandoned hope it wull cry

ND - you have made me want to try something a little different, a bit of an add on.
After my initial, abstract incoherent rendering, I am going to read what I had just wrote and write a more .....wakeful and cognizant approach.

The media is always bias. We even on an unconscious level are bias. Can it be altered? surely. It still remains. It is natural. We live in a society that tries to tamper out bias as if to have a control over it.
Making it worse?
Acknowledging our bias and then dealing with it on a heightened awareness could actually be more productive than to act as a society that would like to think that it is better than the act of bias itself.

This is going to be difficult to ask , a least in getting whats on my mind across, but when you have the initial spur to write down whats arising, how would you describe how the mind is focused at the time you are writing?


i have been watching myself, the mind, bothe when the writing seems to just flow and when it seems obstructed and choppy.

When it seems obstructed is when there is a presence of this notion of "I" or "me". Such seems almost in between whats arising and puttting it on paper( or the screen). It seems to want to pick and choose words, contemplate them, judge them. It just gets in the way it seems. Its like i subtly focus on "me writing", rather than just writing to the paper or screen. HArd to relate in words.

When the words flow like water in a stream, its not the least bit labored. This presence of the notion of "I" or "me" is not there to interrupt. No going back and changing anything, it all just comes right out without any thought or need to think it over. It all just flows from start to finish.
The short comments written in the R/S forum recently on the moment was that way .

A little while ago i was reading another post and a thought on a response arose to something I read. I began to write, buti found myself bogged down in actually thinking about the thoughts arising rather than just letting them come. Killed the whole process, so i quit.

counterfeit enterprise awakes the appeased foriegn aid to rely heavliy on the support of otehrs to fill their successors to follow a creed of the overer flow on the

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

This is going to be difficult to ask , a least in getting whats on my mind across, but when you have the initial spur to write down whats arising, how would you describe how the mind is focused at the time you are writing?

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The abstract journeying has been doing just that - flowing. Much like - free brain storming. NOT having a labored approach to analyzation or thought.


i have been watching myself, the mind, bothe when the writing seems to just flow and when it seems obstructed and choppy.

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When it seems obstructed is when there is a presence of this notion of "I" or "me". Such seems almost in between whats arising and puttting it on paper( or the screen). It seems to want to pick and choose words, contemplate them, judge them. It just gets in the way it seems. Its like i subtly focus on "me writing", rather than just writing to the paper or screen. HArd to relate in words.

When the words flow like water in a stream, its not the least bit labored. This presence of the notion of "I" or "me" is not there to interrupt. No going back and changing anything, it all just comes right out without any thought or need to think it over. It all just flows from start to finish.
The short comments written in the R/S forum recently on the moment was that way .

A little while ago i was reading another post and a thought on a response arose to something I read. I began to write, buti found myself bogged down in actually thinking about the thoughts arising rather than just letting them come. Killed the whole process, so i quit.

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When your thought processes have become obstructed have you been able to break free of that? If you can break free of this "bogged down" way of thinking it may become easier over time.
Thought is natural. It is natural ongoing process that is relevant because it is there. It may not necessarily have relevance until it is put into context. So this free way off writing may give you an approach to write down your thoughts in a manor that lets your subconscious work freely and you could then go back and tweak those thoughts more analytically.. maybe?

It seems to me what you have been writing in the R & S Forum has a lot of subtenancy, however it is vague to most of us but probably not to you. It could be no other way in that form. But you could take from that the unobstructed thoughts and then convey them more concisely. That is if you find it it something to convey.
Some of the stuff I have written in this journal has, after rereading it just seemed like random thoughts. That or I just had not been able to extract anything from it at the time. The opposite of that would be the post about bias. After clearing my head and reading that over it seemed very clear what my thoughts were conveying. Enough so that I wanted to make a post about it.

In your efforts, are you trying to convey any particular thing or are you just trying to find an unobstructed way of thought? ~ OR something else.

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Originally Posted by Howie

When your thought processes have become obstructed have you been able to break free of that? If you can break free of this "bogged down" way of thinking it may become easier over time.

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What is being found is that if the process is started , or starts itself for all intents and purposes, and the "i" obstruction enters in and disrupts it, then there is a good chance that by clearing the mind and refocusing on just whats arising "i" can get back into "the groove" and continue. Such is becomeing more so all the time with practice
However, in many cases, when this refocusing on the "i" occurs, what has been arising to be written, is already finished, or done being conveyed. This in itself seems to be saying something.

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Thought is natural. It is natural ongoing process that is relevant because it is there. It may not necessarily have relevance until it is put into context. So this free way off writing may give you an approach to write down your thoughts in a manor that lets your subconscious work freely and you could then go back and tweak those thoughts more analytically.. maybe?

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It seems to me what you have been writing in the R & S Forum has a lot of subtenancy, however it is vague to most of us but probably not to you. It could be no other way in that form. But you could take from that the unobstructed thoughts and then convey them more concisely. That is if you find it it something to convey.

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Here is an interesting observation. I find that this process , with "me" , seems to have its beginnings in either a question that arises in the back of the mind, or with a question of another. Sometimes, it starts when "i" am simply in meditation over my own inner perceptions, perceptions which usually are not involving words, but visualizations. From there the words to be written just begin to flow. The sooner I write them down the easier it is to mainain the presence of the moment and not get in the way of the words arising. Usually when I wait a few minutes, what was arising is lost.

On rare occasion, i have gone back and explained what was written. i seldom do this though. For me, and a few others, what is said is quite clear in the metaphorical format presented. No tweaking needed.
Most of the time when i explain in terms more familiar to those not seeing anything in it to begin with, all that ensues is argumentative discussion. Those others seem to be pushed farther away from understanding than they otherwise would have been if no explanation were given.
This is what "my intuition" is telling me anyhow.

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Some of the stuff I have written in this journal has, after rereading it just seemed like random thoughts. That or I just had not been able to extract anything from it at the time. The opposite of that would be the post about bias. After clearing my head and reading that over it seemed very clear what my thoughts were conveying. Enough so that I wanted to make a post about it.

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That is interesting in how such presents itself to you and how it presents itself to me. There doesnt seem to be anything truly random in what comes to me, there always seem to be an initial meaning to it. However, upon re-reading what is written, i sometimes find multiple layers of meaning embedded within the writing. There seems to be depth beyond what started, or prompted the writing. Depth notiiced when analyzed with the conscious mind.

I think what you and i are experiencing is the same thing, yet it is interesting in the differences that arise in the specifics of how each of us works with what shows up, and what form that which shows up takes, as in its initial arrangement.
The main difference seem in that what you are seeing arise to you is truly random thoughts, and i am seeing thoughts that have a catalyst.

Do you think you could try and open your meditation to a catalyst of sorts? I mean, once your mind is cleared, maintain that clarity and then let a question brush over the mind, and see if anything arises to that question, And then see if that which arises makes any sense in relation to that question.

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In your efforts, are you trying to convey any particular thing or are you just trying to find an unobstructed way of thought? ~ OR something else.

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I do not really have an agenda as to conveying anything in particular. I seem to be moving from one point to another without doing anything but following the flow itself.

I have been experimenting with letting go of the "i" sense, the ego self, if that says anything. To me, "i" , "me" , mine" are all obstructions to a level of clarity which transcends the mind. Such is reaching past knowledge into pure awareness. Such an endeavor itself seems to be able to be likened to the same process of this writing we are discussing. It is all quite interesting, and getting more interesting all the time.

I realize now where you are coming from NonDualistic. Having an issue, problem, or questioned posed before you use this approach in any form.

Would the question be premeditated or something that arises out of thought prior to the process?
Using a question for a catalyst and going on to use this form of free flowing thought could be very productive.

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Originally Posted by Howie

Would the question be premeditated or something that arises out of thought prior to the process?

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I have seen it happen both ways. From my observations, the most powerful and free flowing experiences are the ones that are not premeditated., IE when I simple wander the DV forums and run across a question that seems to "jump out" at me.

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Using a question for a catalyst and going on to use this form of free flowing thought could be very productive.

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That why I was wondering if you would be interested in giving this approach a try? I would be interested in what you find.

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

That why I was wondering if you would be interested in giving this approach a try? I would be interested in what you find.

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Yes I would. Sorry it took ten posts for me to get where you were coming form. :P

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IE when I simple wander the DV forums and run across a question that seems to "jump out" at me.

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I will try just that.

Derived from the thraed - What do you think is the best form of government?

Government meant in any term as control in one form or another.
Representing people
people representing
People cannot handle power making governments fail and people also cannot handle themselves making a non governmental state illconcievalbe. Making it so that there is no perfect from of government because a government is a reflection of people in either side of the fence you are on. People are flawed, greedy, ignorant or dense. Keep the people dense and they are easy to control while the repressive government wallows in it's own bed of shit. Let the people be educated and they cannot handle prosperity, they wallow in their own self made sad tale of lies.

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Originally Posted by Howie

Yes I would. Sorry it took ten posts for me to get where you were coming form. :P

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Sometimes it takes 10 posts for me to see where it is i am going myself. This whole topic has become quite interesting for me, and the more conversation the more i see.

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I will try just that.

Derived from the thraed - What do you think is the best form of government?

Government meant in any term as control in one form or another.
Representing people
people representing
People cannot handle power making governments fail and people also cannot handle themselves making a non governmental state illconcievalbe. Making it so that there is no perfect from of government because a government is a reflection of people in either side of the fence you are on. People are flawed, greedy, ignorant or dense. Keep the people dense and they are easy to control while the repressive government wallows in it's own bed of shit. Let the people be educated and they cannot handle prosperity, they wallow in their own self made sad tale of lies.

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Any new observations?

Canyland blackbean hopes to find their sheppaerd to relax on thre stone the infinite order of beliefs has rectom in the firey hell of a furnace joint to swallow the shaken soul of the empire corredctness to the advantage of your quick fire seer oin to facsimile over the agenda to the hadron colllider to present to us the true nature of the universe in the form of others that will now be prestent in the prenet time of our lord jesus can correct the magin

intrenched in deep thought a perceived harsh reality determining that life is known in past adolecance and its furvur for life now destroyed and gone diminished to a life of hard reality truths and perplexities, complexities and losses. An endeavor maybe not meant for us all for myself. The reality that was present as a child, has it ever changed? Is it not my perception that has changed on the same basic reality that ...is. The same truth unchanged as it always has been.

Activity absolutes and repository spending
Shadows in the dark remain a mystery shameful bliss incarceration fail blanc episodes of destruction. Blanketing many of the uniformed with breeched intelligence concrete. Format sister hood favors the heavens above. The reckless ownership has become a burden to the stroke victim. Dissidence is here. Explain the inward approach at your analogy to conclude to you that it is for certain the beckoning charge of the defeated. Planned parenthood former Cleveland shit lame to the largest con
Fishbowl timing a

Reconciliation be tempered by bad memories to the credit of the will. The forge it will come to pass the freedom will come to last.
Tomorrow holds another day in spite of how it is felt at the rpesent. Make a wish for the time and pray on its survival.
Twin mechanisms make a different pattern in sheath the rocket will soon Passover the desolate area of remorse and fear. Gain the knowledge know to go to war the fragments of speak make the occasion far from auspiscious in nature as thought it were to dream a dreamers dream. The fsilimy takes order in the same manner as the state of the union address would shape and mold the populist in command the forward deviant message sent to the be
The one to come over. In the snow storm false given to me the

The curvature of a woman, to caress embrace, touch feel
Choke on me my friend
This is the end
Behind me is the mask you had wished for. Put it on and behold the truth.
Just realize it is a mask
You can’t understand the users mind but try with your books and degrees.
Feel free to acknowledge me with your studious approach Forgive me for the forbidden fruit has been eaten. Ponder over the destructive taste.
Lost in the dark. The feelings approach a dismal climax. The boring life of a forgotten sole.
Kill man.