The Lc (lucidity Scale)

So, I was wondering. There is no scale as to how Lucid you were in your dreams. So why not make one? It should be fun.
I was thinking something maybe like this:

• 0.6 Lucidness lasting for half-hour/hour, dream is better than RL, god-like control
• 0.5 Lucidness lasting for several minutes, dream is life like, complete control
• 0.4 Lucidness lasting for more than a minute, dream is very vivid, much control
• 0.3 Lucidness lasting for more than 30 seconds, dream is still not life-like, some control
• 0.2 Lucidness lasting for a longer period, dream is still fuzzy, minimal control
• 0.1 Lucidness lasting for a few seconds, fuzzy dream, no control

Something like that. The list is far from complete, now add what you think is appropriate. Maybe the scale should go to 1.0 or it should be shorter and less complicated.. What do you think of the idea? Comments and suggestions welcome and needed!

---- MoD

Good idea.. Although it would be better in my opinion to have the scale through 0.0 to 10.0. So if someone feels it was in the middle of the two, they could just put down 4.5 or 7.5 or whatever.
10.0 Obviously being those 100 year dreams which everyones been going on about... :jester:

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Originally Posted by hyper0105

Good idea.. Although it would be better in my opinion to have the scale through 0.0 to 10.0. So if someone feels it was in the middle of the two, they could just put down 4.5 or 7.5 or whatever.
10.0 Obviously being those 100 year dreams which everyones been going on about... :jester:[/b]

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I agree with that idea. 1 to 10 is more positive thinking-ish than .1 to 1

How about something along these lines (broken down a bit more though):

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Originally posted by me
Non-Lucidity - You have no idea you are dreaming, and therefore are not Lucid. It doesn't matter how much control you have, how vivid or realistic the dream is, you aren't Lucid.

Low-Level Lucidity - You know you are dreaming, but you have very little or no control. The dream is most likely not vivid or realistic. The dream is not stable, and you probably wake up soon after attaining Lucidity.

Mid-Level Lucidity - You know you are dreaming, and have mild control, but you are not aware that you are invincibility and total power. The dream is probably mildly vivid and realistic. The dream is probably somewhat stable, and you will probably stay Lucid and in power for at least some time.

High-Level Lucidity - You know you are dreaming, and you have strong control over your surroundings, but are not in total power. The dream is vivid and realistic, but probably not lifelike. You are mostly stable, and you should be able to remain lucid and in control for a while.

Ultra High-Level Lucidity - You know you are dreaming, and have total control over the dream world. The dream is very vivid and realistic, most likely better than real life. You are fully stable, and can remain Lucid as long as you want until your body naturally wakes you up or leaves REM.

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Non Lucitity = 0 (duh)
low-level = 1-2
mid-level = 3-5
high-level = 6-8
ultra = 9-10

Something like that, I don't known exactly, and just split up with more specific criteria or something maybe? What do you think?

Once we get the numbers sorted out, I think we need to assign each a color. That way we can have a quick reference to the persons total level of control at that point in the dream.

I like PenguinLord13's scale. I might add to the low-level that you may have awareness for only a fleeting moment.

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Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Once we get the numbers sorted out, I think we need to assign each a color. That way we can have a quick reference to the persons total level of control at that point in the dream.[/b]

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I don't think there's enough readable, non-painful colors for that, as most of the colors are either ugly, painfully bright, both, or too similar to eachother.

The 1 to 10 is a good idea. Then it would be like "I had a 8 level lucid dream tonight".. Heh, sounds kinda good!

I think this scale should be only for lucidness, not control.

On the other hand, if there are 2 scales, the control scale (level of control) and the lucidity scale, then you could do it like this I guess:

(LUCIDNESS).(CONTROL)

So, I had a level 10.3 lucid dream tonight. 10 meaning full lucidness and 3 being little control. What do you think? Good idea or bad idea? :)

Have fun!

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Originally Posted by MoD

So, I had a level 10.3 lucid dream tonight. 10 meaning full lucidness and 3 being little control. What do you think? Good idea or bad idea? :)[/b]

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It seems to me that control is part of lucidity. So if your lucidness was 10 but your control was 3... then maybe your lucidness wasn't 10 after all.

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Originally Posted by MoD

Once we get the numbers sorted out, I think we need to assign each a color. That way we can have a quick reference to the persons total level of control at that point in the dream.[/b]

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Like this:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/2/724044/CLAS.jpg

criticism aside (all in good fun, eh guys?) I like the idea of deciding on a scale, and all good ideas methinks.

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Originally Posted by Xnyper

It seems to me that control is part of lucidity. So if your lucidness was 10 but your control was 3... then maybe your lucidness wasn't 10 after all.
[/b]

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I agree. Lucidity and control go hand in hand. The only exception of course, is if you are very new to lucid dreaming. In that case, you may be very lucid, knowing very well you area dreaming, but still can't control your dreams very well.

I like the descriptions that PenguinLord13 give for the different levels of lucidity... they are very descriptive.

Another way of making the scale, could be one compared to the Salvia scale, which describes how intense a trip was. I don't do that anymore, but the scale is pretty neat:
S - subtle
A - altered
L - light
V - vivid
I - immaterial
A - amnesic

well, for the LUCID scale, it could be something like
L - low (low level lucidity)
U -
C -
I - intense
D - deity (you have god-like control and lucidness in your dream)

well, I'm really bad with words, as english is my second language, and as I'm no english major. But I just wanted to throw the idea out there and see what you guys thought, and if its possible to come up with some good words for a LUCID scale. Also, since LUCID is five letters, it could follow PenguinLord13's scale, if only we could come up with matching words that start with the right letter for each level.

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Originally Posted by Xnyper

It seems to me that control is part of lucidity. So if your lucidness was 10 but your control was 3... then maybe your lucidness wasn't 10 after all.

criticism aside (all in good fun, eh guys?) I like the idea of deciding on a scale, and all good ideas methinks.
[/b]

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I agree with you completely there. You may be Lucid and have the most realistic and vivid dream ever, but if you can't do anything, then your Lucidity Level isn't all that high. It definitely isn't a low, but it probably fits in the medium area, not in the ultimate, as you do not have the power of controlling it.

I love the Lucidity colors chart you made. It is great :bigteeth: The only thing is that I would have it be less sex-based, as what may come easily to an "experienced" person, would require a higher level of Lucidity for a virgin like me to accomplish. Otherwise though, the copying of the security alert chart is absolutely brilliant. And it works almost perfectly with my levels :) We'd need to add an extra level like ultra-low level though (non Lucidity could be a black bar below the chart or something). How about "ultra-low-level Lucidity", You realize you are dreaming for a fleeting moment, but have no stability or control, and wake up or lose Lucidity almost instantly after realizing that you are dreaming

We would have a scale of control, and a scale of lucidity, each one out of five.
You add your two scores together and there you have your level of lucidity.
Out of ten.

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Originally Posted by Klace

We would have a scale of control, and a scale of lucidity, each one out of five.
You add your two scores together and there you have your level of lucidity.
Out of ten.[/b]

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I like that because you may have a very vivid life-life dream with no control or even the opposite - a very "fake dream" but with much control.

I'm glad you like the picture. It was actually supposed to be a joke, but if we end up deciding on a five point scale I'll re-open the file and expand the boxes (so we can have more room for descriptive text) and make us a new one (I'll even get the text to match). It'll be good to know that the department of homeland security stands behind our lucidity scale.

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Originally Posted by Klace

We would have a scale of control, and a scale of lucidity, each one out of five.
You add your two scores together and there you have your level of lucidity.
Out of ten.[/b]

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Like its been mentioned before, lucidity and control go hand in hand. Also, you say a scale for control, and a scale for lucidity, add the two to get your level of lucidity. That doesn't make much sense, since you already have a scale for lucidity. Also, you wouldn't be able to just say you had a level 6, because that wouldn't mean much. People reading it wouldn't know if you mean you had a 1 and a 5, a 5 and a 1, a 2 and a 4, 3 and a 3... catch my drift?

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Originally Posted by Klace

I like that because you may have a very vivid life-life dream with no control or even the opposite - a very "fake dream" but with much control.[/b]

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This topic is talking about a lucidity scale. If you have a very vivid, life-like dream with no control, than your lucidity is none. Doesn't matter that the dream was vivid. On the other hand, if you have a lot of control, but the dream seems fake, fuzzy, and doesn't last long, then your dream would fall somewhere between mid-level to high-level lucidity according to PenguinLord13's scale.

Xnyper I also liked your scale... hehe, its funny, catchy, and the colors are fairly distinctive. Black being the color for no lucidity would work well I imagine. :)

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Originally Posted by tyrantt23

Like its been mentioned before, lucidity and control go hand in hand...[/b]

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Not necessarily. They are the same family but not the same species. There are only a few basic, distinct levels of each lucidity and control (but then there's a whole gray scale in between). They can manifest themselves exclusively or mutually. You could also voluntarily opt out of the control aspects and play passive stander-by yet still maintain the highest lucidity so, "control" is really a "control potential", or "control faculty". Lucidity is situational awareness - control is the power to act upon one's will. They are two different qualities.

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Originally posted by tyrantt23
...On the other hand, if you have a lot of control, but the dream seems fake, fuzzy, and doesn't last long, then your dream would fall somewhere between mid-level to high-level lucidity according to PenguinLord13's scale.

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Which is essentially the same ranking you'd score on the single scale, in the style of PenguinLord13's proposal. If you had two scales from one to five and scored 5 on the control but 0 on the lucidity then you'd still end up with a "5": midway on the 1-10 scale.

The more I think about it, perhaps a scale from 1 to 5 that takes into account both lucidity and control (exercised or not) would fit the need? 5 clearly-defined - albeit somewhat overlapping - "levels of lucidity". Ah, the thought of a 5-star LD :bigteeth:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaught

The more I think about it, perhaps a scale from 1 to 5 that takes into account both lucidity and control (exercised or not) would fit the need? 5 clearly-defined - albeit somewhat overlapping - "levels of lucidity". Ah, the thought of a 5-star LD :bigteeth:[/b]

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That is what I think also. As I said before control is part of Lucidity level. You can be lucid and have no control, and have control and not be lucid because you don't know that it is a dream, but still, when you are Lucid control makes a big difference. You can have full control and opt not to use it and just let the dream go on, and that could still be a ultra-high level lucid if you are stable, grounded, and it is vivid and real-feeling, but if you don't have that control (or potential to control), you are not as high a level because control is one of the main parts of Lucid dreaming, and is a major factor.

I also don't like the idea of too much adding up because as someone said, you would not be able to know if it were super vivid and no control, or super control and not vivid. Also, it is too much of a pain in the ass to use different numbers as no one would remember them, while if you used named levels (even if they are overlapping with some gray area), and then went on to tell about your dream, people would better understand the level of your dream. This isn't math class, it's a far more abstract concept, so I think having over-defined, linear levels would not fit the concept of Lucid Dreaming.

Might I add what I believe is the lowest level of Lucidity?

-Dreams in which you have the slightest sense that you're Dreaming, yet you never Break Through and come to the Actual Realisation and Conclusion that you are Dreaming. Instead the idea of that you're Dreaming hangs in the back of your Mind but never quite makes it into your Conscious mind to actually induce Lucidity. Just more highly Conscious than in a non-Lucid dream, yet just too lowly conscious to attain Lucidity.

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Originally Posted by SKA

Might I add what I believe is the lowest level of Lucidity?

-Dreams in which you have the slightest sense that you're Dreaming, yet you never Break Through and come to the Actual Realisation and Conclusion that you are Dreaming. Instead the idea of that you're Dreaming hangs in the back of your Mind but never quite makes it into your Conscious mind to actually induce Lucidity. Just more highly Conscious than in a non-Lucid dream, yet just too lowly conscious to attain Lucidity.[/b]

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I get that all the time, you just wanna kick yourslef when you wake up.

Imran

The only thing I don't like about this list is that, on more than one occasion, I've had lucid dreams that felt like they lasted for more than an hour, but they were not, by any means, better than or even closely equivalent to real life AND I had only a medium-low amount of control.

It is very hard to classify lucid dreams on a definite scale because longevity isn't always the same in relevance realistic-ness and/or control (and vice-versa).

I don't really have any suggestions of my own because I'm not great at stuff like this, but I do think it could use a little work.

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Originally Posted by tyrantt23

I agree. Lucidity and control go hand in hand. The only exception of course, is if you are very new to lucid dreaming. In that case, you may be very lucid, knowing very well you area dreaming, but still can't control your dreams very well.

I like the descriptions that PenguinLord13 give for the different levels of lucidity... they are very descriptive.

Another way of making the scale, could be one compared to the Salvia scale, which describes how intense a trip was. I don't do that anymore, but the scale is pretty neat:
S - subtle
A - altered
L - light
V - vivid
I - immaterial
A - amnesic

well, for the LUCID scale, it could be something like
L - low (low level lucidity)
U -
C -
I - intense
D - deity (you have god-like control and lucidness in your dream)

well, I'm really bad with words, as english is my second language, and as I'm no english major. But I just wanted to throw the idea out there and see what you guys thought, and if its possible to come up with some good words for a LUCID scale. Also, since LUCID is five letters, it could follow PenguinLord13's scale, if only we could come up with matching words that start with the right letter for each level.[/b]

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L-Low
U-Uncontrolled
C-Controlled
I-Intense
D-Deity

lol just thought I would give some input :)

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Originally Posted by SKA

Might I add what I believe is the lowest level of Lucidity?

-Dreams in which you have the slightest sense that you're Dreaming, yet you never Break Through and come to the Actual Realisation and Conclusion that you are Dreaming. Instead the idea of that you're Dreaming hangs in the back of your Mind but never quite makes it into your Conscious mind to actually induce Lucidity. Just more highly Conscious than in a non-Lucid dream, yet just too lowly conscious to attain Lucidity.[/b]

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That's usually referred to as "pre-lucid". You're right on the cusp but it just doesn't happen. Man, I always kick myself after that. I've been there several times in just the past two weeks - my current dry spell :(

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L-Low
U-Uncontrolled
C-Controlled
I-Intense
D-Deity[/b]

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I like the acronym idea (a creative real original name you make = acronym. Did that all by myself :-) ) but Uncontrolled and Controlled is too far on the control side, it could just as easily be replaced with Unclear and Clear but then we would be too far on the Realism side. If we could average the two...

(Clear + Control)/2 = ?

What we need is a word that can be attributed to both clarity and control. I'm thinking that Unstable would fit well for U because it could mean that your control was slipping, or that the reality of the dream wasn't solid. I think that the "unstable" category still leaves enough room under it for "low". I also think that while highly lucid dreams can be short, they can't be unstable (except at the end, obviously), a distinction wich will need to be made in the descriptions, once we decide on a scale.

Still, "C" stumps me

I was thinking. Another member said that the amount of time a dream lasted isnt important. I agree. I think clarity is important, so is lucidness and control. These are three things. So for the sake of keeping things simple.

LCC -> Lucidness , Clarity, Control each ranging from 0 to 3 (1 being shittiest and 3 being the greates (2=medium :)) and 0 being for example. a non lucid dream in the L case, foggy as hell in Clarity and absolutely no Control)

So you would say, I had level 113 dream last night. Its simple and easy to remember.. I mean, LCC.. Its an L and two C's. :D

p.s. Ive been having only level 010 dreams lately! :P

Good idea to make a scale!

I think the 3x3 scale is an awsome idea, but better for scientific sorts of rating systems.

I'm into the five point scale for everyday use. The simpler the better to gauge lucidity and not get bogged down in it's definition. The salvia/lucid scale is a good idea because of the mnemonic nature of it.

Shea suggested the following, with my own in red.
L-Low or no lucidity
U-Uncontrolled or Unclear or Unstable
C-self-Control or Clarity
I-Intense
D-Deity

In response to ska, I would say that low lucidity is like fleeting lucidity. There for a moment, and gone. Or, you know that you have to remember to do something...but you never remember the reality check. Or, you realize you are dreaming, but it means nothing to you at the time.

I suggest self-Control for C because although I agree that control over the dreamscape is something to be done lightly (otherwise what's the point? have a day-dream instead!), but having self-control is a hallmark of lucidity. With proper self control, I can decide to do a thing in a dream, or decide not to do a thing in a dream. Clarity could be used too, for two meanings: general clarity of the dream; clarity of mindset.

I guess an example of a U would be a nightmare that causes uncontrollable fear in you, even though lucid.

Also, this scale would not be absolutely definitive of a whole dream, perhaps. You become aware with a C, the dream went up the scale to an I, then crumbed to a U, then L.

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Originally Posted by MoD

LCC -> Lucidness , Clarity, Control each ranging from 0 to 3 (1 being shittiest and 3 being the greates (2=medium :)) and 0 being for example. a non lucid dream in the L case, foggy as hell in Clarity and absolutely no Control)[/b]

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Or like the "3 Cs" for diamond grading (Color, Cut and Clarity). In this case, the three Cs would be Consciousness, Clarity and Control.

I like folded's ideas and agree with his assessment that the 3x3 scale is less than optimal for our purposes.