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Hi, I' am going to make this really short. I made this thread to ask if
taking LSD makes you see the real reality. I know that sounds retarded, but the only thing that makes me ask that question is that I was reading somewhere that LSD basically turns off the filters you have for your senses. So I don't know what do you think?
P.S. I have never tried LSD myself.
Philosophy board please, sir. :V
I think LSD probably distorts your perceptions though, like most other drugs, and so obscures reality. I haven't tried it either though.
Please link that source :D.
Okay somebody move this to the philosophy section, I don't know how to do that.
I'm going to have to disagree with Xei. This belongs in religion. I will attempt to answer your question though.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWolf
No, taking LSD does not make you see the real reality. Does anything? We are bound by our perceptions and our reason. LSD modifies (some old limitations gone, some new limitations imposed) your perceptions and thought processes. You perceptions and thought processes exist as they are because they are the product of billions of years of evolution and as such are fairly well geared towards ensuring your survival. Don't mess with them lightly.
If you are like most people, you will see a lot of colors and think that you are thinking really deep thoughts but you wont be.
Study science (biology and physics) and good religion (with a huge grain of salt!) and let those ideas seep into your brain for a while. Then try dosing if you still feel curious. Or take it with some friends at a phish show or something. Do what you want but don't expect it to be enlightenment in a drug because such a thing does not exist.
LSD, and other hallucinogens, forces people to invest more of their consciousness in sensory input. That's why music sounds so great, colors look very colorful, things feel very different, etc. Most of the day we have a very narrow scope of senses. We miss out on a hell of a lot of impulses our senses send to our brain, because we're too busy making sense of our environment/selves. Thinking about things, making judgments and comparisons, speculating about the future, etc. All of these "interior" functions are really hallucinations. When we have an internal dialogue we're hearing words that don't exist. All of these functions interact in a neural network many call the self or the ego. A sense of self, and a latent map of the world based on conditioning and past experience.
Hallucinogens heighten activity in the sensory areas of the brain, and as a result those parts need more nourishment. Because of this other parts of the brain that aren't as important to our survival get neglected. The ego is the main structure that suffers. The end result is a perception of the world based on things that are actually happening in the sensory world, rather than filtering every detail through our created conditioning and sense of self.
However like any drug there are side-effects, like the hallucinations that distort the senses. Some believe that the distortions are realities that our brain is missing out on in sober life, others see it as a malfunction of the brain. Either way I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.
But to answer the question, no. We're removing that filter, but our perception is still subjective no matter what. That's just how human perception works. What we see, hear, and feel is not what's necessarily out there, its just what our brain is allowing us to see. Our visual field is just reflections of light off of actual objects sent through our eyes and into our heads. Everything's a subjective representation in our heads. Pretty awesome, eh?
tl;dr: LSD does turn the filters of your senses off (at high enough doses), but perception is still subjective so its not necessarily making one see the "real reality", its just taking away the middleman (ego) that distorts it even more.
I think it's very much a scientific question and also a philosophical question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Before I answer your question, which is a recurring and important one, I want to throw out a disclaimer. You can't really trust the underground market LSD that is out there. It is illegal, so it is far less trustworthy than it would be otherwise. Other stuff can get mixed in with it, and some of it can make you really sick. There were a few people in my city a while back who went into comas from doing bad acid. You can have horrifically bad trips too. I am talking about being convinced you are going to die for six hours and stuff. Also, flashbacks are real, and your serotonin can get thrown into a weird funk for a long time after you do acid. I will not encourage it, but I will answer your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWolf
I have done a good bit of acid, and I think it both creates psychosis and tunes the user into aspects of reality not ordinarily realized. You will have ridiculous delusions and maybe hallucinate a little bit, but you will also possibly figure stuff out that makes sense and is mind blowing. It can bring you to actual "perceptions" of your philsophical understandings. I have come to philsophical conclusions I believe right now because I had more than reasoning. I had actual vivid awareness. I can also take your creativity and reasoning more together and to new heights. But like I said, it can make you believe and perceive really ridiculous things also. It takes you in both directions.
Ouch, bad call. Perception of reality and how it's effected by mind alteringQuote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
drugs does indeed belong in philosophy, but it also has some place in the
science forums. Experimentation with chemicals that effect one's perception.
Caution.
Even if LSD makes you see more of reality, it will be like being shot off a canon blasted right into it, your perception will be distorted by fear and the effects of the drug.
The main thing is, it is in most situations counter-productive for a person to take mind-altering drugs. They changes are short-sighted most often, and can lead to a more negative or less productive path than the natural one.
I think this text will offer more insight than my own:
Quote:
All,
It is not that awareness altering drugs can never produce valuable insights, they can, but rather that such drugs are much more likely to become a part of the problem than a part of the solution as you work toward your goal of evolving the quality of your consciousness. Their upside is infinitesimal in comparison to their downside. What constitutes an upside often appears, because of its suddenness, more valuable than it really is.
Drugs do not constitute a shortcut. Drugs do constitute a trap by encouraging you to believe in a phantom upside that does not exist while reducing your ability to precisely control the focus of your awareness. Your consciousness is like a precisely and subtly tuned tool – a delicate instrument – drugs interact with that instrument like a sledgehammer – detuning and increasing entropy in exchange for a random big bang.
The probability that you will derive some lasting benefit from a psychotropic drug is inversely proportional to the number of times you use such drugs. There is no free lunch – you only get to keep what you earn. If you have done 95% of the work, the drug may bump you over that last 5% and offer you an “ahh-haaa!” moment. But if you have done only 60 % of the work the drug will only make it harder and take longer for you to accomplish the last 40%.
Expecting drugs to deliver or aid in consciousness evolution is a fool’s dream. Primitive societies, who know how to use psychotropic drugs to that end, are trapped at a low level of understanding, functionality, and awareness. You might think that would be better than no understanding, no functionality, and no awareness, but that constitutes a false choice. The price of “easy” is very high. Such people have no idea what they have given up for what they get. Like forgoing a high school, college, and graduate school education so one can spend all of one’s time playing on a brightly painted jungle gym in a big sandbox. That will always appear to a 5 year old to be a cool choice. Because indulging in psychotropic drugs over time eliminates other options, it becomes more and more difficult to escape that particular sandbox. In terms of consciousness evolution, a 50 year old stuck in a kindergarten sandbox may be completely normal for our drug saturated culture (both legal and illegal, common and uncommon), but it is sad just the same.
Tom
Real reality? What's that? We already each experience our own unique reality, LSD just tweaks that unique perception to a new position.
It doesn't show you a "true" reality, it just makes everything more intense. Starts with a tingling sensation in the back of your neck that my friends all though was your spine being eaten away, but I suspect it's really the throat chakra acting up.
If anything, it can show you that there is no absolute reality.
Incidentally, I'll probably be doing some this weekend,
I mostly agree with what Specialis quoted, particularly in regard to LSD; it's a lot more likely to distract and misguide you than get you anywhere. It is somewhat useful in revealing the constructs of perception, insofar as it introduces errors into the normally automatic and invisible processes by which we turn sensory stimuli into an apparently seamless reality. It also delivers the sensation of revelation, which can tip you over the edge into actual revelation if you've already "done most of the work," as mentioned above. Alternately, that sensation may convince you of ideas with no merit whatsoever.
Occasional hallucinogenic experiences can be therapeutic--occasional as in years, not weeks or months--as a reminder of the constraints of 'ordinary' perception, but I wouldn't recommend LSD. A mushroom trip in the right set and setting will be every bit as powerful and considerably less debilitating.
No, even when you are on acid, you are still bound by your finite brain and sensory perceptions.
My take on it at this point:
It doesn't show "the reality". It just re-arranges (for that time) your
perception of it. It lets you see things in a different light and you can
understand that what we see is just one of many possibilities.
It can make you see that we are basically still fish in a pond. So for us
to really understand the mechanisms of the universe is as likely as for
a chimp to understand modern physics.
But, as mentioned before, it is always up to you, there is nothing really
'external' because it works off of your level of education and your openness.
So the intentions, the focus you are having, while going into that kind of
experience, your own mental capacity, are basically key for using these "tools".
It's a little like lucid dreaming actually, or dreaming in general - in that
sense that it can just be an underlying thought that creates changes, even
though the subconscious processes might become more obvious.
As an example of someone, who for sure has some experience:
I remember a talk of Terence McKenna in which he stated that whenever he
had such an 'enlightenment' or have gained an 'understanding of how things
really work', there would be a psychedelic experience that just threw
him back into the 'not knowing shit pile' and even until the end, he was still
looking for, or changing his ideas on his fundamental 'truths'.
For a person with a solid 'understanding of the world', a psychedelic experience
might be very good, because it can blow the doors wide open again - which
might also lead to a disfunctioning in 'this reality'. But without preparation
and followed contemplation it's not worth anything anyway.
For a person who is looking to learn more about himself, like the (sub)conscious,
the brain, or even emotions such as fear or desire, it can also give further
insights, but it's always only to the level that one is actually in before entering.
It's easy to confuse temporary states of 'bliss' or 'euphoria' with some deeper
understanding, or the upcoming of thoughts that seem or even might be
logical that have not been 'realized' before, with a 'universal understanding'
or 'enlightenment. I don't think it's impossible to achieve it, even with the
help of substances, it is just that they only have 'little to do with it' it's still
all up to the individual.
Few things I like to add - they've been mentioned before I think, but still:
1. That stuff is nothing to play with. There's a good chance that it might
actually change something in you or have an impact on the further course
of your life or the decisions that you make, either good or bad, depends.
2. These kind of experiences are very unique and different to everyone.
Different people come to (many) different conclusions, also.
3. This planet provides us with many, many natural substances also, so
that's my personal take on it, but maybe consider using the natural substance,
if you are also looking for something natural or 'not-artificial'.
(I am right now in a more remote part of the world and will probably have
a chance, this month or the next, to take part in a real Ayuasca Ceremony.
This is something I am really looking forward to! :-) ).
If you want to read up on these substances, I'd suggest erowid.org.
edit: I truly still enjoy talking about that kind of stuff :D
I'm pretty sure it's been conclusively proven that LSD can severely damage your brain after extended usage.
And if it hasn't been conclusively proven, there is more than enough anecdotal evidence to be cautious.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Roxxor
No physical side effects. No brain damage (mostly because LSD is hardly
toxic and the chemical structure is related to the existent one in the brain)
and no chromosome damage, like many people still think. Basically you'll
find "evidence" for both "sides".
Psychological damage is a whole different story, though.
trueQuote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
If you take LSD, you can fail certain drug tests. Someone told me (I know it's random, but maybe it's true) that a pilot friend of his failed a drug test because he had trace amounts of LSD in his spinal cord, many many years after using. It seems to make sense because people always say they get flashbacks, which is probably caused by latent traces of LSD being released.
Judging from the information available, mushrooms and DMT seem to be better alternatives to LSD for one who is discovering psychedelics.
It varies from person to person. But generally speaking yeah there's a significant risk factor towards extended usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Roxxor
Reality is relative. If you look at the (religion/joke) I am a member of: Discordianism , Reality is the result of humans attempting to apply logic to chaotic, and random elements of information. On the quantum level everything is information, and the potentiality for information. So when you take mind expanding drugs your reality changes, because your perceptions change.
That reality is just as real as your normal state of reality, because reality is relative to the observer, like time.
i dont now from looking up facts but i BELIEVE that it opens your mind up to a new perspective on life and reality . there are things in this world that i have seen fryin and they dont look the same on lsd nor do they make me feel the same ...however idk what the real deal is with it all i know is it realy opens up my mind.