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    1. #1
      Xei
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      Alien Life

      Strangely enough I don't remember having a thread in the science forum about this.

      Anyway, here it is.

      I've been doing a lot of reading about this in the last couple of days. I've always assumed that there was an abundance of life in our galaxy, just because of the numbers argument; 10^11 is a lot of stars. I also think the multiverse theory has a lot going for it, so I assumed that, due to basic probability, it was likely that we'd find ourself in a universe with a very large number of other sentient creatures.

      However I started reading properly about the Fermi paradox yesterday, and I started to realise the numbers game is a bit naive when you consider the other evidence:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

      I was struck in particular by the observation that, if only 1 civilisation gained sufficient technology and had sufficient interest, it would take only a few million years to send probes to every solar system in the galaxy; and given that intelligent life could have arisen at pretty much any time in the last 10 billion or so years, this begs the question: why haven't we been contacted if such life is common?

      There's also the conspicuous lack of any radio contact.

      So, that's some food for thought and the general direction I'm interested in at the moment.

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      We do contact you. We even live with you in Earth Human bodies.

      Hi.

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      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      I think its naive even vain to assume that all intelligent life in this universe must at some point develop the same kind of technology that we have. Just as it is pretty naive to assume that all life in this vast universe can only exist on earth like planets.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Keldario View Post
      We do contact you. We even live with you in Earth Human bodies.

      Hi.
      Why hasn't it become public knowledge that you exist?

      /hypothetical

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      Uh, it is public knowledge that we exist. Look in a mirror.

      Yes, I am saying to see yourself as one of "those" beings "out there" in the universe.

      Try this on a dark, cloudless night; look straight up into the sky, forget that there is ground beneath your feet. You will see that the same blackness that is the universe "out there" is what you exist in. You are a part of it.

      There is no aliens, only life from different perspectives.

      Here is an example of why some ships and beings cannot be seen.

      Light exists in many frequencies. Not all light can be detected by human perception.

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ectrum.svg.png


      As you can see, the only visible spectrum of light to humans exist from blue to red as shown in the picture. Not all beings in the physical universe are actually physical. We all advance at a different pace than one another. Some have become evolved to a point to where their frequency is at a rate which we as humans cannot detect. They could be standing right in front of you, but in another dimension in which you cannot see or hear, but perhaps feel.

      In our dreams we shed some of our filters and are able to encounter some non-physical beings, but if you are not careful, you may invite some of those beings who do not really care about your well being.

      Humans have yet to reach a point in evolution where we can co-exist with beings of a brighter light, but it is not impossible. It depends on what we do as individuals, how we evolve as a race.

      It is not up to "them" to make contact with us, it is up to us to make contact with them.

      Last edited by Invader; 04-14-2010 at 03:08 AM. Reason: MERGED

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      Member Specialis Sapientia's Avatar
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      Read all the points below http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_p...ee_no_evidence

      Many of them are very valid.

      You should try to play around with the Drake equation. It seems that from using the equation and trying different parameters, the probability is that this galaxy is teeming with "communicable life".

      Our problems lies in communicable life

      fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
      L = the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space

      These two parameters must be very low (or we would already have observed it), and limits the equation too much because we assume that alien civilizations use radio signals, they probably use another form of communication. It probably lies in us looking for strictly physical signals, while communication based on consciousness (non-physical) is used. If humanity is used as a standard for use of radio signals by intelligent life, the average civilization would only be radio-visible for about 100 years.

      And some perspective http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal
      The wise ones fashioned speech with their thought, sifting it as grain is sifted through a sieve. ~ Buddha

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      Quote Originally Posted by Keldario View Post
      Yes, I am saying to see yourself as one of "those" beings "out there" in the universe.

      Try this on a dark, cloudless night; look straight up into the sky, forget that there is ground beneath your feet. You will see that the same blackness that is the universe "out there" is what you exist in. You are a part of it.

      There is no aliens, only life from different perspectives.
      we would be aliens to others, sure, but we can't call ourselves aliens.

      adj.
      2. Belonging to, characteristic of, or constituting another and very different place, society, or person; strange.
      http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alien
      I realize we need to be in perspective, but that wouldn't that be an improper use of the word? can't call a cup a horse.

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      Quote Originally Posted by no-Name View Post
      we would be aliens to others, sure, but we can't call ourselves aliens.
      Nah, not aliens, family.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Keldario View Post
      Nah, not aliens, family.
      but... the thread... the thread isn't about family.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      There's also the conspicuous lack of any radio contact.

      I remember reading somewhere that radio signals from an alien civilization would be indistinguishable from background noise. Maybe we're being bombarded by signals, but just don't know it.

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      If they were intelligent enough they'd send some type of signal that would be impossible (or at least nearly impossible) to be produced by some natural phenomena. A long list of prime numbers would be ideal. I think that's what SETI broadcasts, because it undoubtedly shows some type of intelligence.

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      Aliens are not "out there" in outer space trying to communicate with us by beaming prime numbers embedded in radio waves across light-years. There is a very much more sophisticated and efficient way of communication. Only some aliens are interested in communicating to the powers that be on Earth. But aliens contact individuals from "inner" space and communicate telepathically.
      These aliens are at a different frequency so that they are invisible to us "out there". But they can contact us through dreams or when we look within. There are insectoid mantis aliens. There are light being aliens. And there are elf-like aliens. And many many many more. You can contact them if you can quiet your mental chatter enough (background noise) and feel for them. SOmeone said that if an alien did send a radio wave message we couldn't decipher it from the background noise. In the same way, an alien cannot recieve a message from you unless you quiet your own "background noise" and you cannot recieve a message unless you quiet your background noise.
      The language they speak to communicate with us is either symbolic, or it is actual raw knowledge which is translated by our brain into our language and symbols. Only some crop circles are a hoax, and the ones that aren't a hoax are messages made by a frequency of energy. The aliens that make crop circles are inconcievable to us. They appear to be shape-shifting flying saucers that turn into balls, but made of light. But actually they are the aliens themselves, that can travel at the speed of thought, which is much faster than the speed of light, because it is not limited to the 3rd dimension. Thought exists in the 5th dimension. Radio waves are like snail mail. Telepathy is the internet.
      Of course, there are aliens in contact with the U.S. and European governments, and our governments are infiltrated by a few. But these aliens are inconsequential. They have their own agendas which aren't for our best interest. But they are losing power and they will be gone soon.
      It is the aliens that seek you out in dreams that feel positive that we should try to build a relationship with. And yes, some of us are from other worlds.
      Last edited by Dannon Oneironaut; 04-14-2010 at 03:04 AM.

    13. #13
      DuB
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      I see. So basically, we need to add another term to the Drake equation: the probability that aliens are magic.

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      I agree with you Dannon Oneironaut, 100%.

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      Well, if that is what you call it. Humans are magical also then.
      But really, instead of thinking of it as a paranormal thing, rather view it that
      some aliens are aware that this Universe is an infinite range of frequencies of energy,
      which humans and their technology only know a small spectrum of.
      Some call it 'magic' because they don't understand it. But some alien technology is outside current human comprehension.
      And just like a human mind, with it's sense of humor, it's sense of rationality, it's awareness of its own mortality and self, is inconceivable to a groundhog, in much the same way some alien minds are to humans.
      The question though is: what relationship do humans have with aliens? And which alien species do humans have positive relationships with?

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      I say, you can tell how humans will get along with ET by how they get along with other humans.

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      Hungry Dannon Oneironaut's Avatar
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      There are benevolent alien races waiting in the wings, just outside our perception, observing, waiting, to reveal themselves when the time is right. When the war is over. Many humans are afraid of the one world government, and rightly so, because is being created right now by the rich, and the exploiters. Yet, the one world government is inevitable stage in our evolution.

      When there are no more nations, but one people, one consciousness, that is the time representatives from various alien races will reveal themselves to humanity, in a way that causes no fear. Earth will then be able to join the Galactic federation, and manipulation from other alien races that do not have humanity's best interests in mind will be removed.

      There was a time when aliens lived openly with humans for 200,000 years, up until 5,000 years ago. Human and alien destinies are intertwined. Humans are related to aliens from the Sirius star system. Some of our DNA is from there. It is interesting to note that all life forms in the Universe, even light beings, have DNA. The mystery, that nobody knows, not even the oldest being in the Universe, is where did the first DNA come from?

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      Quote Originally Posted by SpecialInterests View Post
      If they were intelligent enough they'd send some type of signal that would be impossible (or at least nearly impossible) to be produced by some natural phenomena.
      I can't find the original source where I read it, but this will do for now:

      http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs...enmessage.html

      "Eavesdropping on alien radio transmissions may be close to impossible, says a team of researchers who think alien signals would be indistinguishable from interstellar noise. The problem, as first pointed out by Claude Shannon in the 1940s, is that any sort of optimally efficient encoded message has too much in common with background noise."


      "If you are communicating with maximum efficiency, your signal looks like black body radiation"


      It sounds like the aliens willing to communicate with us should know exactly what we are looking for in the signal and then adjust their signal accordingly. Otherwise we'll (or already have) miss it.

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      I don't think alien scientists would send probes to every solar system, why would they? Some of them would take a million years to make it to our little planet, they wouldn't wait that long.

      I'll bet a quarter of inhabitable planets / moons harbour life.
      Out of those, maybe a tenth have multicellular organisms
      Out of those, maybe a hundredth have sentient organisms
      Out of those, maybe a hundredth have social organisms.
      Out of those, maybe a thousandth have technological savy creature.

      That's still a lot of civilizations with technology, but spread out far between.
      Last edited by ninja9578; 04-14-2010 at 05:56 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ninja9578 View Post
      I don't think alien scientists would send probes to every solar system, why would they? Some of them would take a million years to make it to our little planet, they wouldn't wait that long.

      I'll bet a quarter of inhabitable planets / moons harbour life.
      Out of those, maybe a tenth have multicellular organisms
      Out of those, maybe a hundredth have sentient organisms
      Out of those, maybe a hundredth have social organisms.
      Out of those, maybe a thousandth have technological savy creature.

      That's still a lot of civilizations with technology, but spread out far between.
      I think this too.

      Life is extremely resilient. There is many examples of this right here on planet earth, and I think primitive life should be extremely abundant throughout our universe. But to have a species evolve to such levels to allow them to build machines and technology to communicate with requires so many more variables than to just have single-celled life.

      And maybe there is a good chance that most creatures that actually do evolve to build machines and weapons kill themselves off. I hate to have to use humans as an example but... It's not looking good for us, in my opinion. Nuclear weapons aren't a good idea.

      Maybe it's just that were so far spread out the chances of communicating with another intelligent species would be impossible (atleast at this stage). And once you incorporate cosmological time into the equation... What's the chances of coexisting with another intelligent species in our vicinity when 14 billion years is a factor? I mean, humans have only been able to use radio technology for what? We'll say 100 years and that's generous... and we might not be around for much longer, that's not a lot of time to try and make contact.

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      I think an advanced civilization destroying itself is inevitable. Whether or not it survives is dependent on a race. Eventually a civilication will colonize other worlds, if that happens first, then the race will survive, if not, then it dies.

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      juroara likes this.

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      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Lol! Yes! Thank you! Our expectation that all intelligent life forms are using radio waves is pretty naive. Imagine if an alien race communicates through telepathy, and they've got natural built in cells phones with a world wide coverage. Even if they discovered radio waves, do you think they'd fathom they could use it to communicate? Why? What do they need it for? Maybe they naively assume that all intelligent life is telepathic like they are and they just beam out their thoughts into space every night!

      Maybe they're not even interested in communicating with others who aren't telepathic like they are - maybe to them - that's the definition of a mindless beast.

      Silly I know, but we should stretch our imaginations to every imaginable possibility. We can use earth as an example of what could be out there. Instead of imagining that all intelligent life in the universe look and act and develop technology just like humans (pretty vain), we can look at the diverse life here on earth. Life here on earth has developed all sorts of different ways to communicate. My favorite is colorful light!

      What if jellyfish evolved and became super intelligent (they're pretty alien looking!). What kind of civilization would they build? Would they even have a need to build anything? Or would they just willingly remain nomadic swimmers, in some organized swimming colony? What would they create?

      We created technology out of the desire to live simple lives, to make our lives easier and better. Or for conquer and conquest. But if you are already living the good life, because you're on top of the food chain, the water is always nice and warm, and there are no artificial boundaries to stop your endless journey (therefore nothing to conquer). What would you create? If you've got a really big brain but no need for technology? What would you create?

      Musical masterpieces maybe? I think music is a greater sign of sentience than technology anyways.

      I'm sure there are aliens using radio waves to communicate. I can't guarantee you though they haven't blown themselves up yet

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      Demi-Demi-God wannabe Jonny the Nameless's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post

      There's also the conspicuous lack of any radio contact.
      We get sometimes get radio signals from space, we just don't know what the hell they are

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_source_SHGb02%2B14a

      If you think about it, a radio transmitter encodes it's message, and you have to know the code to decipher it at the receiving end. Simply put, their radios might work different, and we wouldn't know if they were sending a picture or a voice message.

      (The wiki article is an example I just looked for)
      Last edited by Jonny the Nameless; 04-15-2010 at 05:44 PM.

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      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      We detect electromagnetic radiation that is within the radio frequencies, but so far we have yet to recognize any signal. Radio waves are just one part of a very wide spectrum of electromagnetic frequencies, just as light is only a small portion of the spectrum. We use radio and therefore look for signals in that spectrum, pretty much on a whim. There uncountable ways an alien intelligence could choose to attempt communication.

      I personally believe aliens have already been here, probably longer than we have, but in the unlikely case that we haven't found them and they haven't found us, it would probably because we are all broadcasting on different "channels" and will probably continue since there are so many different channels to broadcast on.

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