Lucid Dreaming Book Club (July)

[Hilary]

Guess I'm a bit late to the party but since I wanted to read this book for some time I think I'll just start now... Great idea btw Glad to have you here with us. You know, I was thinking, because people read at different paces, we can always vote on extending this a couple weeks or even full month of August before heading into a new book. We can play it by ear. Spoiler for Chapter 9: I found it interesting how he talks about the shaman lady that helped peek into his dreams for a dream of clarity about him. This is exactly the sort of thing we're doing in the dream sharing group, so I can see its validity. Furthermore, I found it really cool that she uses items belonging to the person to increase the connection and support the dream sharing process. That is a great idea (too bad we're all too far apart!).

[nautilus]

I think the westerner approach to meaning and content indulges dualism and explores what is important to us. By observing our dream content, as the author says, we can observe our "karmic traces" and use antidotes and self-liberation to nurture more positive karmic traces (those we value and and find virtuous, which we want to nurture). Yes, I particularly had Jungian dream interpretation in mind in terms of interest in content and meaning. There's definitely a lot of exploration of dualities and part of that early on is finding the symbolic meaning to the dreamer and how that relates to their waking life and internal interpretations. But one of the main goals of that exploration (by my understanding) is for the dreamer to find a creative and unique way to integrate the two sides of the duality - which essentially eliminates it. I think that is the overlap you were looking for? Well, not an overlap, but a gap between is/ought; they are simply complementary. Complementary is a good way of putting it, and clarifies what I was wondering about. Exploring the dualism can bring awareness to it, which in turn gives a platform to practice dissipating it. Very interesting. I also feel wisdom is universal and it would come knocking your door in many different ways and forms, whether you're ready to receive it or not. I get the same impression. Perhaps the only difference being ready or not makes is how much you're able to recognize what, exactly, is knocking at your door Guess I'm a bit late to the party but since I wanted to read this book for some time I think I'll just start now... Welcome You know, I was thinking, because people read at different paces, we can always vote on extending this a couple weeks or even full month of August before heading into a new book. We can play it by ear. Yes, and/or perhaps we could create a new thread when we start on a new book? That way the old threads could continue as long as there's interest and meanwhile we can start on new content when enough people are ready for it. Spoiler for Chapter 2 and 3: "If we abide in awareness during a dream, we can allow the karmic traces to self-liberate as they arise and they will not continue on to manifest in our life as negative states. As in waking life, this will only happen if we can remain in the non-dual awareness of rigpa*, the clear light of the mind. If this is not possible for us, we can still develop tendencies to choose spiritually positive behavior even in our dreams until we can go beyond preferences and dualism altogether." It sounds like there is both a beginner approach and master approach available here. I always appreciate that because it makes teachings available to a wider range of students who are at different stages of learning. "Because karmic traces are the roots of dreams, when they are entirely exhausted only the pure light of awareness remains: no movie, no story, no dreamer, and no dream, only the luminous fundamental nature that is absolute reality. This is why enlightenment is the end of dreams and is known as 'awakening.' " To be honest I'm not sure I want my dreams to end, at least not yet and not entirely. I wonder if this is a case of enjoying the journey while you work yourself out of a job, in a sense. "The disturbing trace will be healed by manifesting in the dream and thereby being exhausted. However, unless the manifestation takes place while the dreamer is centered and aware, the reactions to it will be dictated by habitual karmic tendencies and will create more karmic seeds." Makes sense. I've sometimes noticed that after a negative emotion comes up, it will just flow away on its own unless further thought, scrutiny, and internal reactions are present, which seems to keep it alive much longer. But here a subtle distinction is given; it sounds like it's not so much that a disturbing trace (to use the terminology) is kept alive by reactions, but rather it did dissipate after manifesting and the only question is whether a new one it is created or not. That ties back into the beginner and master approach as well. Once you can recognize how you've been creating unconsciously out of reactivity, you could either choose to create something different, consciously based on your own preferences, or to create nothing new at all and just remain in a state of pure being.

[monsa199a]

Guess I'm a bit late to the party but since I wanted to read this book for some time I think I'll just start now... Great idea btw Welcome aboard!

[Hilary]

Spoiler for Chapter 14: I really like how he points out that when questioning reality, you have to do more than just perform the action. You have to feel it. By adding in the emotional element, we add our own power to it. We give the idea energy.

[Ant101]

Part 3 chapter 3 “The emphasis should actually be on you, the dreamer, more than on the objects of your experience. Keep reminding yourself that you are dreaming up your experiences: the anger you feel, the happiness, the fatigue, the anxiety – it is all part of the dream. The oak tree you appreciate, the car you drive, the person to whom you are talking, are all part of the dream. In this way a new tendency is created in the mind, that of looking at experience as insubstantial, transient, and intimately related to the mind's projections. “ so as I understand it ,it’s our reactions, our likes and dislikes our aversions and grasping which totals as our “projections” that’s “DREAM LIKE” not the objective world I see? And this stems from our karmic traces ? Can someone tell me how leave a message via the “spoiler” icon??

[Hilary]

Part 3 chapter 3 “The emphasis should actually be on you, the dreamer, more than on the objects of your experience. Keep reminding yourself that you are dreaming up your experiences: the anger you feel, the happiness, the fatigue, the anxiety – it is all part of the dream. The oak tree you appreciate, the car you drive, the person to whom you are talking, are all part of the dream. In this way a new tendency is created in the mind, that of looking at experience as insubstantial, transient, and intimately related to the mind's projections. “ so as I understand it ,it’s our reactions, our likes and dislikes our aversions and grasping which totals as our “projections” that’s “DREAM LIKE” not the objective world I see? And this stems from our karmic traces ? Can someone tell me how leave a message via the “spoiler” icon?? I think it's both. I don't know how it works, though. Oh, press "go advanced" when posting, then at the top you see the toolbar. Look at the very bottom line where you see an S with a line through it. Press the box button to the left of that S with the line through it.

[Lang]

Can someone tell me how leave a message via the “spoiler” icon?? Spoilers: 1. At the bottom of your write your post there are two buttons. When you choose Advance post. There is a little icon that is on your square on the bottom towards the middle, if you hover your cursor over the icon it will tell you, "Spoiler wrap tags" push that. Then a window will pop up, that is where you can put whatever wants in that field. Example: "Chapter 3" Then push send. The tags should appear in your post. There you can post whatever you want between the tags. Or You can use these tags from the code and just change the "Chapter 3" to whatever you want. [ SPOILER=Chapter whatever? ] Contents [ / SPOILER ] I hope that is not as clear as mud? I haven't seen any other post about how to do things... So I hope that helps, Ant101? ~Lang.

[Ant101]

[ SPOILER = chapter 3 part 3 ] CHAPTER 3 really good blah blah [ / SPOILER ] That didn’t work 🤔

[Lang]

As you wish! Oh, no space between the spoiler tags... The tags are simple: vB Code example: [spoiler=Click Here!]This is the spoiler text...[/spoiler ] There are different ways of doing this: the go-to Advance button or just do the Spoiler for Click Here!: Not famous![/spoiler ] The Advance button: Go to the Advanced button: Push the icon that looks like a square...Like this: There should be a window that will pop up. Right in the space below, whatever you are driving that spoiler and click okay! Then between the tags, Put the text there. Perfectly not confusing. Alright back on topic.

[Occipitalred]

Part 3 chapter 3 “The emphasis should actually be on you, the dreamer, more than on the objects of your experience. Keep reminding yourself that you are dreaming up your experiences: the anger you feel, the happiness, the fatigue, the anxiety – it is all part of the dream. The oak tree you appreciate, the car you drive, the person to whom you are talking, are all part of the dream. In this way a new tendency is created in the mind, that of looking at experience as insubstantial, transient, and intimately related to the mind's projections. “ so as I understand it ,it’s our reactions, our likes and dislikes our aversions and grasping which totals as our “projections” that’s “DREAM LIKE” not the objective world I see? And this stems from our karmic traces ? You never do see the objective world directly. In waking life, all perceived experience, all contents of your consciousness are constructed by your mind/brain so in waking life, you indirectly see the objective world through the process of the brain/mind. This concerns the targets of your five senses (such as what you see) and also the feelings, thoughts and impulses you have. Through meditation, you can observe all of these things arise and go spontaneously. In dreams, the mind still constructs conscious experience but not based on an objective world. So, in a dream, it is not only our feelings of aversion/grasping that are "dreamlike" but EVERYTHING contained in your consciousness (the world, the feelings, the thoughts, the impulses...) That is why, "waking up" (self-liberation) means the end of the dream: because, once you are "enlightened," there is nothing left but your consciousness. They say, it's bright and clear but again I'd argue that's also dream. I think overly focusing on "self-liberation" is... suicidal in a sense. I think it's useful for taking a step back. Like taking a breath of fresh air before plunging back in water. I believe you need to indulge the dream and follow certain values to orient yourself around the dream of life, and I think the author also believes this. But to answer your question, yes, the author's discussion of karma is focused on inner experience rather than outer experience. (Think compassionate thoughts, and more compassionate thoughts will resurface. Indulge your feelings of aversion, and they will arise more strongly and more frequently). Karma also pertains to the outer world, but in the context of dream/sleep yoga, the discussion is focused on inner experience.

[Hilary]

If/when you have finished the book, please post it in this thread so that I can get an idea of if we need a couple extra weeks before moving on to the next book. Thank you. *Also, please note the suggestion thread for the next title is now up. You may post ideas for the next book there*

[Hilary]

Spoiler for Ch15: I read something interesting recently in the dream yoga section of the book. He said during the last couple hours of rest, to put you pillow(s) up higher so that you're not sleeping so flat, rather sleeping at an angle. Also, he recommends crossing your feet while sleeping. He said this helps with awareness in the dream state. Totally going to try this. Anyone practice with his meditations on the ball of light? (tigla?)

[monsa199a]

Spoiler for Ch15: I read something interesting recently in the dream yoga section of the book. He said during the last couple hours of rest, to put you pillow(s) up higher so that you're not sleeping so flat, rather sleeping at an angle. Also, he recommends crossing your feet while sleeping. He said this helps with awareness in the dream state. Totally going to try this. Anyone practice with his meditations on the ball of light? (tigla?) Yes, it's agood practice sitting or laying more diagonally, although I'm an artist and more visual, I find is harder to visualize a ball of light for me, the practice with the light of a candle is very useful to train visualization in the 3rd eye... staring at the light without blinking for couple of minutes the closing your eyes, you'll see the flame floating in the 3rd eye, or eyebrow chakra.. I want to practice it again! It's an uplifting experience

[Hilary]

Yes, it's agood practice sitting or laying more diagonally, although I'm an artist and more visual, I find is harder to visualize a ball of light for me, the practice with the light of a candle is very useful to train visualization in the 3rd eye... staring at the light without blinking for couple of minutes the closing your eyes, you'll see the flame floating in the 3rd eye, or eyebrow chakra.. I want to practice it again! It's an uplifting experience Very cool, thank for sharing this. I've been using a circular dot for a focal point. I am going to adjust my practice to use the candleflame. It won't hurt the eyes?

[Hilary]

We will be starting the next book on August 7th, 2020, after the poll results close. We can continue to discuss this book after that point in this thread. Please go and vote for the new selection

[Hilary]

Well, I finished this book last night. It took me a long time, I just found it kind of hard to read. The visualizations were difficult to picture and use. I feel like it will take at least another read-through of the yoga section to attempt that. Spoiler for End: I wrote a review on goodreads, however it basically just says that while awesome in some respects, I found his words to be quite depressing at times. The idea that life (samsara) is suffering does not resonate fully with me. I mean, sure, it is, for many people, but it doesn't have to be. Rather than focusing on leaving the experience of duality all together, we could learn to live with reality. By increasing awareness, and knowledge, we can learn to live within the rules of our universe, to have a life that's more happiness than suffering. Also, consider that suffering brings our life meaning, and so, some suffering is good. It allows us to blossom later in life. You can't have that experience without the suffering. Also.. it just... it seems like he's promoting solipsism throughout the book. I don't know, maybe he's right. Maybe I am the only one here, and I created you all with my illusionary mind. If so.. well. You're welcome?

[Occipitalred]

To be formal, I also finished the book two weeks ago, I think, but I felt satisfied with the thoughts I shared. I think my favorite part is the segment I quoted in my first response to Nautilus, related to the is-ought gap. I think I connected more with the dream yoga than the sleep yoga parts. I don't think I'm ready for those rituals but it's nice knowing where to find them.

[Sageous]

It's interesting that you both weren't exactly bowled over by the sleep yoga section. I thoroughly enjoyed the dream yoga part, and felt that Wangyal did a good job introducing it and offering techniques and points of view -- well worth reading for any LD'er, experienced or not... but I was disappointed by the sleep yoga section: I had discovered, before reading the book (and back in '02), that the dream work I had been developing for years was actually a form of sleep yoga, sans the religious part, and I was very interested in what someone steeped in the practice had to say. So I read the book. It turns out he had very little to say about sleep yoga; at least not any of the useful stuff like he had in the dream yoga section. I got the notion that sleep yoga may be a bit too personal, or perhaps transcendental, in practice, that there really wasn't much to say about it that would make sense to the reader, or that perhaps would be valid to every individual reading the book. The only other problem I had with the book was similar to Moonage's: Spoiler for opinion: Well, I finished this book last night. It took me a long time, I just found it kind of hard to read. The visualizations were difficult to picture and use. I feel like it will take at least another read-through of the yoga section to attempt that. I wrote a review on goodreads, however it basically just says that while awesome in some respects, I found his words to be quite depressing at times. The idea that life (samsara) is suffering does not resonate fully with me. I mean, sure, it is, for many people, but it doesn't have to be. Rather than focusing on leaving the experience of duality all together, we could learn to live with reality. By increasing awareness, and knowledge, we can learn to live within the rules of our universe, to have a life that's more happiness than suffering. Also, consider that suffering brings our life meaning, and so, some suffering is good. It allows us to blossom later in life. You can't have that experience without the suffering. Also.. it just... it seems like he's promoting solipsism throughout the book. I don't know, maybe he's right. Maybe I am the only one here, and I created you all with my illusionary mind. If so.. well. You're welcome? I think all this depressing (or in my mind, distracting or limiting) stuff came from the fact that Wangyal was trying to write a secular book for us non-initiates, but couldn't help bringing religion into the story, as it forms the base of his knowledge. Tibetan Buddhist mysticism is, arguably, quite selfish by its nature (at least that's what my wife always tells me), and when that tenet creeps in between the lines of this book, it could appear to us western folk as solipsism. It would have been nice if Wangyal could have found a way to completely strain religion from the mix, especially in the sleep yoga section, and leave us with just the core of these two practices... of course, given that his religion is the core of these practices, that might have been asking too much. Also, though it's been a few years since I read the book and I might remember wrongly (sorry guys!), Wangyal (and Buddhist mystics in general) tends to get caught up in non-dualism as a state of being rather than a perspective. In the end, no matter how secure you think your non-dual perspective might be, it is still a perspective: there is still a "You" there doing the perceiving, like it or not. If You weren't there, and had indeed become purely one with the universe, and therefore no longer exist as an individual Self, then what exactly was the point of all those years of work? To cease to exist? Who is doing the perceiving now? Doesn't make much sense to me, especially on the sleep yoga side. (The same goes for the Zen guys demanding that you abandon all ego, leaving nothing but a "pure" self who has no idea she exists, but that's for another thread, I suppose). Depressing indeed!

[LeaningKarst]

Hi all, It’s been a couple years since I’ve read this book, but perhaps I can be of some service here. Spoiler for End: I wrote a review on goodreads, however it basically just says that while awesome in some respects, I found his words to be quite depressing at times. The idea that life (samsara) is suffering does not resonate fully with me. I mean, sure, it is, for many people, but it doesn't have to be. Rather than focusing on leaving the experience of duality all together, we could learn to live with reality. By increasing awareness, and knowledge, we can learn to live within the rules of our universe, to have a life that's more happiness than suffering. Also, consider that suffering brings our life meaning, and so, some suffering is good. It allows us to blossom later in life. You can't have that experience without the suffering. Also.. it just... it seems like he's promoting solipsism throughout the book. I don't know, maybe he's right. Maybe I am the only one here, and I created you all with my illusionary mind. If so.. well. You're welcome? The Buddhist term that normally gets translated as ‘suffering’ is ‘dukkha’. It encompasses all suffering, the entire spectrum of it, everything from being annoyed by a buzzing mosquito on up. That’s why you’ll also see ‘dissatisfaction’ as a translation sometimes – because the natural tendency for readers seems to be to think of the big stuff when ‘suffering’ is used. Not sure if I can help re: solipsism (and I'm speaking to Sageous' point here as well), but this did jump out at me since I was rereading The Myth of Sisyphus last night and thinking exactly the same thing – what a solipsistic view the book presented. I can’t speak to Zen as I sometimes come across quotes that strike me that way to me as well, as an outsider – but they might not for someone who’s actually involved with a Zen lineage and has a better idea of how everything fits together as a whole. The aspects of practice that make it into books are the ones that are well-suited to that kind of presentation – and, yes, the aspects that will also be relevant for readers who will probably be doing whatever they’re going to do by themselves, without the benefit of a teacher or a sangha. I think in the West, we’re used to thinking we can do just about anything through reading books – but the Buddhist teacher writing it would be thinking of it as a place for people to begin.

[nautilus]

I finally finished the book. It seemed like I just kept going slower and slower, maybe because there was more to process as the book progressed. Spoiler for Dream Yoga Section: Anyone else try the object focus meditation (forceful zhine)? I found it fairly challenging. The explanation of the three obstacles was particularly useful. I think I've addressed the issue of mental agitation effectively during my regular meditation sessions up to this point, and the obstacle of drowsiness is something I'm aware of and I mostly just avoid meditating when very tired. But the third one, laxity, I hadn't thought about. "It can be a pleasant and relaxed experience and, if mistaken for correct meditation, may cause the practitioner to spend years mistakenly cultivating it, with no discernable change in the quality of consciousness." Yep. Oops. Well at least it's only been a few months in my case. The visualizations were difficult to picture and use. I feel like it will take at least another read-through of the yoga section to attempt that. I felt the same way; I got overwhelmed at first by the amount of unfamiliar symbols to think about. I ended up focusing on the underlying concepts rather than trying to use the exact visualizations given. As per the sleep yoga section, for instance, I put a general focus on a clear light and the feeling of keeping peaceful clarity of mind. I actually got a super vivid and peaceful feeling lucid dream one night doing this, which I posted in my online DJ. It probably helped that I was reading the sleep yoga section right before bed such that it was fresh in my mind. That plus it was a single sleep cycle as I'm currently adjusting to a new polyphasic schedule. While I lapsed into a normal dream after the lucid section, it retained the vividness. I also had an "auditory hallucination" within the dream right before waking up ahead of my alarm. Basically it sounded like people talking in waking life and I was hearing them from within the dream, although no such event occurred. Sleep yoga section: Spoiler for Sleep Yoga Section: I think overly focusing on "self-liberation" is... suicidal in a sense. I think it's useful for taking a step back. Like taking a breath of fresh air before plunging back in water. I believe you need to indulge the dream and follow certain values to orient yourself around the dream of life, and I think the author also believes this. I've always been particularly drawn to Buddhist teachings, but I never fully immersed myself because I couldn't quite wrap my head around trying to liberate myself from this reality as an ultimate goal. As several people here have said, that gets a bit depressing to think about. Especially the idea that everything I'm attached to, including in a positive way, is an illusion. Since I've started practicing meditation more regularly, my perspective on this has shifted a little, however. I think it's useful to understand the nature as reality as a tool, like you said. Kind of like how it's useful to acknowledge mortality, as it can even lead to a more focused and purposeful life, but focusing exclusively on the end of one's life while still in the middle of it or trying to get there faster seems strange to me (unless there's a great deal of suffering, which is theoretically getting dissolved through these practices anyway). Sometimes I think, "Why would I be here on this planet with this life, if my only goal was to just spend the whole time trying to get right back out? Why would I be in this form with a very limited consciousness if my only purpose was to become one with an ultimate, complete consciousness?" I want to learn and grow and change, but I don't want to be done. So maybe it's like a journey; knowing the destination provides context and purpose, but it isn't where all the interesting stuff happens. All of the "moving towards" process is happening before the destination is reached, and awareness of the destination only enhances that. Overall, I really the book. I'm still fuzzy on how to apply the sleep yoga section, although it was interesting to read about. Even for a lot of the dream yoga techniques I suspect I'll probably have to stick with the basics for a while.