Trying to get rid of this "over-sleepiness"

Hello guys,

So I'm gonna start just by saying that I sleep like a tank, 12 hours of sleep for me is do-able (but not necessary for my day to day life). I wish to reduce this to to 6-8 hours; eg: I REALLY want to become more of a morning person (I know, it takes time to get used to it).

So here are some aspects of my sleep cycle:

• I can sleepy pretty much in any environment, if I don't have anything to do at work I can sleep in my chair (sleepiness due to boredom is "fatal" for me); noisy environments I can do that as well (though I can't easily fall asleep in dead silence). I can sleep during the day for 1-2 hours (only if I haven't slept for more than 10 hours during the night/morning)
• I frequently dream out of REM sleep. For example, I doused on my couch for an hour at around 9 pm and remembered the dream(s) I had when I woke up.
• My brain somehow refuses to wake up when I have certain dreams which really elevates my "happiness" levels
• I usually wake up earlier than my alarms at around 6-7pm then fall back asleep almost instantly (less than a minute)
• Staying in bed awake is "fatal" for me as I fall asleep instantly, even if I read something on my phone, I'll just hit my face with the phone.
• Sometimes the "feeling" is so bad in the morning that I honestly say I feel being hit by a train. My eyes have a soothing sensation when I close them, my back feels better, and I generally feel very comfortable.

Important things to note

• I don't drink coffee (just haven't got the habit of it). But I was thinking in the past weeks that I should start drinking it (but this requires that I "forcefully" wake myself up earlier in the morning before going to work), and maybe somehow some changes occur in my organism and help me with this issue
• I DO NOT feel tired throughout the day. So I assume this is purely on sleep not on anything else. I actually feel better after 30 mins of being out of bed and outside, walking (but to get there, I have to get rid of the huge amount of sleep I feel I have inside me)
• No drugs (legal or illegal), except alcohol on a regular basis (in the weekend). Actually, sometimes alcohol makes me get out of bed earlier in the morning due to dehydration and small headaches (hangover); eg: I can't fall asleep back as easy as before, far from it.
• Don't think it's narcolepsy since I don't have symptoms of falling asleep randomly (but it does happen when I'm bored from time to time)

Ok, enough about me. So we all know this magical substance called melatonin, and I'm thinking that my body is out of whack and it's secreting too much (also, it's delayed, I frequently go to bed after 11.45 pm - 12 midnight, before this, I don't really feel like sleeping).

I've already known some stuff about it, but now I researched more and found out how can you increase or decrease melatonin secretion. "oddly" enough the internet is full of "melatonin for "insomnias", why does society think that insomnia is the only problem ? Why isn't oversleeping seen as a big problem as well?

Anyway, found this article which said that NSAIDs (like aspirin) decreases melatonin secretion.

Also blue light doesn't seem to help too much, as I said I can pretty much sleep in any environment (actually, it makes it just a wee better, as waking up in a darker room is "fatal" for me).

So any advice for me on how to "regulate" this melatonin secretion ? Am I on the right track ? I've also learned about a "zapping" bracelet which delivers a small shock as your alarm, this should get you on your feet and prevent falling asleep due to the short surge of adrenaline coming from the electrical shock. Haven't tried it yet.

It is very difficult to change the natural regulation of things like melatonin (in fact I'll take some of yours :cheeky:); my experience is no measure of a good example since I have naturally screwed up levels of sleep hormones, which contributes largely to my daily fatigue.

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For starters, I'd simply set an intention with conviction (i.e. with a good goal for motivation) for getting up earlier. It's possible this won't work for you, but it might work too. Make it coincide with alarms but do not let any feeling of trust develop for your alarm. Assume that your alarm will make you aware of waking up initially but will not KEEP you awake.

If trying that on its own for some time makes no difference, then maybe you could consider drinking tea (not herbal or white teas) instead of coffee, as it does have caffeine and theine too, but this goes into personal preference.

I do find it odd that you fall back asleep easily while looking at your phone; is it on a low brightness, is it a modern phone with a blue-light filter (usually as a system background app)? You could always set the intention of getting up, opening the blinds/curtains whatever, and if you want to get back in bed, SIT in bed, don't lie in bed.

The zap idea sounds interesting but I think personally I'd be inspecting the device electronically first. :cheeky: Do you sleep with someone else, or is there anyone else in your home? If there is, it might be an idea they come and bother you on purpose (i.e. poking/pinching you) for the same effect.

Lastly, is your daily routine mostly the same, i.e. do you get bored at the same times each day?

Let me know if you think that's any help or if I could address a different point that you made and I didn't approach.

Thanks for the reply. I'm mostly seeking advice regarding melatonin; ways to decrease it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

It is very difficult to change the natural regulation of things like melatonin (in fact I'll take some of yours :cheeky:); my experience is no measure of a good example since I have naturally screwed up levels of sleep hormones, which contributes largely to my daily fatigue.

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I'll try aspirin very very early in the morning then go back to sleep, hopefully it will enter my body completely by the time I want to wake up with no sleepiness in my eyes. Also read about orexin and gonna try some of those there like curcumin.

Also of note I used to have depressive episodes (not very serious to point of self-hurt) and got rid of it (it's symptoms, the thing itself is still deeeeep inside me) 5 years ago

Which means I "suffer" from the following

• very low motivation levels (it's a lot higher at work though, since I'm pleased with my work life)
• general dissatisfaction, and lack of interest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

For starters, I'd simply set an intention with conviction (i.e. with a good goal for motivation) for getting up earlier. It's possible this won't work for you, but it might work too. Make it coincide with alarms but do not let any feeling of trust develop for your alarm. Assume that your alarm will make you aware of waking up initially but will not KEEP you awake.

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That for me is nearly impossible, I'm pretty much a different person when I wake up in the morning. Countless times I've said to myself during the day/evening "ok, tomorrow morning gonna be good, going to make myself a nice breakfast, watch some news on the TV, and normal stuff that anyone would do", only to wake up hit by a train and unable to find absolutely any motivation to get out of bed since I always weigh which "activity" makes me feel better on the short term.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

If trying that on its own for some time makes no difference, then maybe you could consider drinking tea (not herbal or white teas) instead of coffee, as it does have caffeine and theine too, but this goes into personal preference.

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I never tried coffee, nor did I try tea. The thing is is that I HAVE to get out of bed to make them. With coffee I can try and have it when I get to work; do that for a couple of days straight and maybe after a while my body/mind will somehow change and re-balance my sleep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

I do find it odd that you fall back asleep easily while looking at your phone; is it on a low brightness, is it a modern phone with a blue-light filter (usually as a system background app)? You could always set the intention of getting up, opening the blinds/curtains whatever, and if you want to get back in bed, SIT in bed, don't lie in bed.

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Yes, low brightness but without the blue light filter (it automatically turns on at 12 midnight and turns off at 7 am). I just want to get rid of this sleepiness state that I feel almost every morning, then I bet I can get the motivation to actually get out of bed. Also, light coming out the windows don't seem to help.

I'm also a bit more sensitive to light than other people (that I've noticed over the past years).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DarkestDarkness

The zap idea sounds interesting but I think personally I'd be inspecting the device electronically first. :cheeky: Do you sleep with someone else, or is there anyone else in your home? If there is, it might be an idea they come and bother you on purpose (i.e. poking/pinching you) for the same effect.

Lastly, is your daily routine mostly the same, i.e. do you get bored at the same times each day?

Let me know if you think that's any help or if I could address a different point that you made and I didn't approach.

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I live alone. No, I don't get bored like that. It's very situational and mood-based. Usually I get to read something or research something I like, etc. Anything that stimulates my brain.

So I was really determined to do something about it and after reading those short articles I decided to go shopping and bought some

• plain old aspirin because it slows down the secretion of melatonin
• Curcumin supplements (with piperine)
• Probiotics supplements containing lots of Lactobacilli bacteria
• Believe it or not, I even bought sauerkraut because I actually like it and it's very popular in my country (even my folks have it home made)

I took 1 pill of each (the recommended daily intake for each is 2 pills, sans the aspirin), and ate almost half a jar of sauerkraut after dinner. I was a bit skeptical at first because I have issues with my stomach and aspiring + curcumin being both anti-inflammatory it could spell danger. But alas, it wasn't the case.

So throughout the night I kept waking up (2 times in total, excepting the last one where I didn't get back to sleep). It took me around 15 minutes to fall back asleep each time. I was pretty anxious for the "results", even if it were just the first time so that's why I had "trouble" getting back to sleep (i usually fall back asleep in 1-2 minutes) up to the point where I was just thinking "come one, just be 6 or 7 am already so I can get out of bed).

So 6 am came and woke up, stayed in bed for about 20-30 mins with no sleep in my eyes whatsoever (remember, under normal circumstances I can't do that, as I feel asleep even if I'm on the phone in under a minute) and I got up, watch something on the TV made myself some breakfast. All in all, it was pretty much what I wanted.

Now, it's pretty curious on why it happened the first time (I assumed it'll take a few days for the body to get used to the pills i'm giving him). It may have been induced by my thoughts, but I'll see in the coming days.

One thing of note is that I won't be taking them daily since I'm a social drinker and mixing them with alcohol is very bad for the stomach and the rest of the GI tract, but I hope i won't loose much by doing this. I'm also more susceptible to bleeding in general and I'll have to keep an eye on that.

It's good you have met one of your goals. I'm interested in seeing how this will go for you over some time. But yeah, I would be careful about the use of aspirin - though, I am curious, have you ever gone to the doctors about this? I know they can be rather unhelpful at the best of times, but I wondered if you brought up the subject of oversleeping at all with someone like that before and they just "shooed" you away.

Well, the daily dose for aspirin is 6-8 / day (that's if you really have pains and fever), I'm only taking one for the sleep and the slight headache I have each time I get up so early in the morning.

I'm not used to doctors because I rarely had any health issue since I was born. But I'll go for a full checkup in august when I got a whole week off and gonna bring two issues I got right now that's upsetting me: the sleep issue and my horribly intolerance to heat (linked to a light form of hypothyroidism, self diagnosed).

So... preliminary results after 5 days:

• Last week I only took the stuff on Wednesday and Thursday, and none on Friday and Saturday (since I new I'd be out having a couple of beers)
• The first two mornings:
  
  * Thursday: First morning woke up at 6am and stood in bed until 6.30. Wasn't feeling like being hit by a train. I woke up in the middle of the night 2 times.
  * Friday: Second morning woke up at 6.30am and stood in bed until like 7.15. Wasn't feeling like being hit by a train. Woke up in the middle of the night 1 time.
• Saturday: Since I didn't take anything on Friday evening and for the fact that I slept at around 2 am, I woke up at 9.15am, but what's the most important is the fact that I didn't have any sleep in my eyes and I was feeling good. Also woke up in the early morning like 3-4 times but put myself back to sleep instantly. I honestly thought I overslept till 12 noon or something because of that, but alas, my body was feeling ok at 9 am.
• Sunday: The following night I really slept late, like 5-6 am and woke up at 1 pm. Nothing out of the ordinary here, except I was starting to feel like I used to before taking the supplements
• Monday: The following morning (even though I took my "meds" the previous evening) I felt again hit by a train, but NOT as bad as before.
• Tuesday: Woke up but didn't feel like getting out of bed, so I stayed in and slept until I had to get ready for work, got out of bed at 9am. Once again it was much better that before.
• Wednesday: Woke up at 7.28am, two minutes before the alarm. Skipped the 3 alarms I got every morning and immediately got out of bed. I had no need to stay in bed whatsoever and that in my book is excelent :).

I don't want to force myself out of the bed, that's not my intent. My intent is to fix my body into not feeling so bad during the mornings. So even if I still got tons of sleep in my eyes in the morning, I won't skip a thought and just put myself back to sleep.

Some people can function normally on 5-6 hours of sleep, others may need 9-10 everyone's different..ive tried numerous medications, went to sleep clinic, different opinions from doctors..nothing changed in decades (always feel mentally/physically exausted in morning) could be a million different reasons, if dehydration maybe you need more humidity in bedroom, some people sleep better with oxygen, could be related to drinking alcohol..if insured would talk to doctor or get referral for sleep clinic (just cause It didn't work for me, doesn't mean it won't for someone else) please excuse any spelling errors..five a.m. can't sleep, and good luck

The truth is that people have different ways of handling sleeping patterns.. Hope you'll find what works for you best.