Thread: Have a question about sleep science? Ask me...

Hey! Could you tell me what happens in the brain; When one feel tired, but ignore it, then go for some hours... Then not being able to get tired, one cannot sleep or type a sentence like this?

Am I just too tired to manage to be tired? Tired of being tired?

So frustrating, it is..

I'm a polysomnologist as well. I'm fairly new to the field, so I'm here to learn more about sleep in general and basically to expand my boundaries.

Maybe you can answer this question. Is it known - or believed to be known - whether dolphins dream or not? And if yes, what's the verdict?

i have a question if you lucid dream will you actually get sleep or will you be tired the next day

Lucid dreaming gives you just as much sleep. In fact you may feel more awake the next day from the experience.

(1) It was long said, or thought...that dogs don't dream, then it was said they dream in black and white...then i'm just now hearing that science is saying that dogs not only dream in color, but can also see in color (in their waking life) contrary to the popular belief long-held in the past that dogs can only see in black and white, care to shed some light on this doc?

(2) If one takes sleeping pills, does that decrease ones amount of REM sleep for that night or is REM left unchanged irregardless of what you take?

Originally Posted by GestaltAlteration

Lucid dreaming gives you just as much sleep. In fact you may feel more awake the next day from the experience.

I agree with this!

Nice to see experts on the subject here !
My question: what is the difference (physiological ? brain chemicals ?) between people able to fall asleep in 5 minutes after they close their eyes anywhere, and those (like me) who can never do it in less than 1 hour ?

who can never do it in less than 1 hour

Mind-D: It says on your signature you have had 30 WILDs... how in the world do you do that if it takes you over an hour to fall asleep?!

How come they say it takes hours to enter rem sleep and be able to dream, but I start to dream within 10 minutes.

Originally Posted by Citizen

Mind-D: It says on your signature you have had 30 WILDs... how in the world do you do that if it takes you over an hour to fall asleep?!

I don't do WILD on the evenings, but mostly in the morning; at that moment I have no difficulty to fall back asleep repeatedly (after smashing the alarm clock to get "just 9 more minutes")

Originally Posted by Michael

How come they say it takes hours to enter rem sleep and be able to dream, but I start to dream within 10 minutes.

It doesn't take hours to get to REM. Besides, dreams also occur in non-REM sleep.

Originally Posted by G0MPgomp

Hey! Could you tell me what happens in the brain; When one feel tired, but ignore it, then go for some hours... Then not being able to get tired, one cannot sleep or type a sentence like this?

Am I just too tired to manage to be tired? Tired of being tired?

So frustrating, it is..

My best guess at what you're asking me is if you are not abiding by your natural circadian rhythms (?). You body/mind has a 25 hour "clock" that it goes by with respect to the neurochemical balance that keeps you awake or asleep. For example, if you stay awake past the traditional 16th hour of wake then you are fighting the sleep drive produced by melatonin production in your body.

Originally Posted by Oneironaught

Maybe you can answer this question. Is it known - or believed to be known - whether dolphins dream or not? And if yes, what's the verdict?

What little I know about that is they cannot achieve true sleep because it is limited to one hemisphere at a time due to their lack of autonomic respiratory drive (voluntary breathing). I would think if they did have something resembling REM it would be a hypnagogic state.

Originally Posted by hi4057

i have a question if you lucid dream will you actually get sleep or will you be tired the next day

By the time you can achieve a true lucid dream (stage REM4 to REM5) you have already had most of your NREM sleep. Getting this is much more important, per restfulness, than REM.

On that same note, lucid REM activity is on par with engaging wakefulness so enough of it could be mentally straining.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut_Jeff777

(1) It was long said, or thought...that dogs don't dream, then it was said they dream in black and white...then i'm just now hearing that science is saying that dogs not only dream in color, but can also see in color (in their waking life) contrary to the popular belief long-held in the past that dogs can only see in black and white, care to shed some light on this doc?

(2) If one takes sleeping pills, does that decrease ones amount of REM sleep for that night or is REM left unchanged irregardless of what you take?

1) It is my understanding that canines lack the necessary rods/cones in their eyes to perceive color. If they never experience the sensory input/experience of color then they lack that cognitive model in their mind/brain. I seriously doubt their visual cortex could "invent" color for them in the dreamscape.

2) Most sleep aids (OTC or prescription) should not affect your sleep cycle architecture. However, there are many drugs that will deprive you of REM sleep, most notably antidepressants and benzodiazepines.

Originally Posted by MindDaguerreotype

Nice to see experts on the subject here !
My question: what is the difference (physiological ? brain chemicals ?) between people able to fall asleep in 5 minutes after they close their eyes anywhere, and those (like me) who can never do it in less than 1 hour ?

From what I've seen in the lab and first hand (I can fall asleep in seconds, no joke), is that a low latency of sleep (time it take to drift off) is accountable most directly to keeping the same sleep schedule day after day and getting enough sleep each night. This is so important because your body should be your best sleep aid due to the circadian rhythm that produces melatonin to cause your sleep drive to start. If you miss that critical 2-3 hour "window" when sleep drive is most effective then you may experience some difficulty with sleep onset once you do decide to go to sleep.

Originally Posted by Michael

How come they say it takes hours to enter rem sleep and be able to dream, but I start to dream within 10 minutes.

Like Bonsay mentioned, your regular REM cycles occur every 90min but what you're experiencing is likely a vivid perception of NREM hypnagogic sleep.

Keep the questions coming, my apologies about being away from the website so long.

Originally Posted by jonesn

1) It is my understanding that canines lack the necessary rods/cones in their eyes to perceive color. If they never experience the sensory input/experience of color then they lack that cognitive model in their mind/brain. I seriously doubt their visual cortex could "invent" color for them in the dreamscape.

Dogs have 3 types of rhodopsin, the pigment in cone-cells. Humans have four. So dogs probably can see colour, although differently than humans. Some type of birds actually have five types of rhodopsin, I wonder how they experience the world.

I'm actually going to do my senior research project on lucid dreaming, so I have a few questions.

First of all, are there any tell-tale signs that a person is in REM sleep, OTHER than the rapid eye movements themselves? I'm hoping to build a lucid dreaming aide which would provide the sleeper with sensory input of various types during REM sleep, and it would be nice to have some method other than staring at someone's eyes for hours or estimating circadian rhythms.

Secondly, just out of curiosity, do you know which parts of the brain are active during lucid dreaming as opposed to 'normal' dreaming? I'm shocked that so little research appears to have been done in this area, because it stands to reason that if there are any neural structures which are responsible for consciousness, they would be the only difference between lucid and non-lucid dreaming.

Thirdly, does sleep-walking ever occur during REM sleep? I remember reading that this only occurs during NREM sleep periods somewhere. If it did happen during REM sleep, and you happened to be having a lucid dream... would you be able to control your sleeping body by moving about in your dream?

Last, but probably most importantly - do you know of any foods, vitamins, supplements, or the like, which might help trigger lucid dreams? I would be interested in conducting some shitty and un-scientific tests involving them for my state-mandated senior research project, just to have some semblance of science in there.

Thank you so much for answering our questions, it's good of you to share your knowledge =D

I have a sleep disorder -- that much is clear. I had a polysomnogram about 3 weeks ago. My PCP prescribed Provigil a week before the sleep study because I was literally falling asleep on the job, unable to make it through an 8-hour shift (I am a medical office nurse), and had been written up for excessive absenteeism (now protected by FMLA, at least in the short term.)

I did not take the Provigil on the day of the study, and barely made it to the hospital. I filled out the paperwork; the tech had to wake me to hook me up because I was so exhausted.

The polysomnogram showed less than 1% of sleep time in stages III and IV, REM latency 115 minutes with *23* "spontaneous arousals" per hour. So apparently I am waking up about every 3 minutes -- no wonder I am exhausted! Also "moderate snoring" with hypo/apneic events not meeting criteria for sleep apnea.

I do have very vivid, colorful dreams, sometimes fall asleep dreaming, and have lucid dreams 3-4 times a week.

Saw my PCP today; she ordered a consult with the neurologist who read the sleep study. It looks like I will also be having a MSLT and possibly a home CPAP trial soon. The neurologist noted several of my symptoms were consistent with narcolepsy, and my PCP is also leaning toward that diagnosis. BTW there are sleep disorders on both sides of my family. I am thriving on the Provigil and have not missed any work since I started it.

Any thoughts? I know only an MD can make a final diagnosis, but even my PCP told me I was a "fascinating case" and she'd only encountered a handful of patients like me in her 20+ years of practice. And no, I wasn't offended by that. Seems we health care types all get wrapped up in fascinating cases at some point

Originally Posted by thegnome54

I'm actually going to do my senior research project on lucid dreaming, so I have a few questions.

First of all, are there any tell-tale signs that a person is in REM sleep, OTHER than the rapid eye movements themselves? I'm hoping to build a lucid dreaming aide which would provide the sleeper with sensory input of various types during REM sleep, and it would be nice to have some method other than staring at someone's eyes for hours or estimating circadian rhythms.

The primary physiological correlates of REM sleep are rapid eye movement, loss of muscle tone, fragmented breathing pattern, and EEG (brainwaves) similar to wake. However, to accurately detect REM you need to monitor multiple variables, all of which need sensitive equipment.

Secondly, just out of curiosity, do you know which parts of the brain are active during lucid dreaming as opposed to 'normal' dreaming? I'm shocked that so little research appears to have been done in this area, because it stands to reason that if there are any neural structures which are responsible for consciousness, they would be the only difference between lucid and non-lucid dreaming.

The primary change in brain activity during lucid REM is in the reactivation of the frontal lobes of the brain, namely the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex; it's responsible for working memory and the ability to perceive yourself in real time. The frontal lobes are the 'executive center' of the brain and allow for a true perceptive conscious to exist.

Thirdly, does sleep-walking ever occur during REM sleep? I remember reading that this only occurs during NREM sleep periods somewhere. If it did happen during REM sleep, and you happened to be having a lucid dream... would you be able to control your sleeping body by moving about in your dream?

Nope. When someone does act out their dreams the movement is very llimited, usually just in the arms and legs. This is diagnosed as REM Behavior Disorder due to the lack of muscle atonia that should be present during REM sleep. Somnambulism, or sleep walking, occurs only during NREM as you said.

Last, but probably most importantly - do you know of any foods, vitamins, supplements, or the like, which might help trigger lucid dreams? I would be interested in conducting some shitty and un-scientific tests involving them for my state-mandated senior research project, just to have some semblance of science in there.

Just look in the DV forum and you'll see that everything under the sun has a claim to increase lucid dreaming. I don't believe in any of it, to be honest. What I can say is that you're looking for any supplement that will act as an agonist to increase the vividness of sensory perception of the dreamscape, so you're more likely to notice the inconsistencies (dreamsigns) of the dream.

That is possible by affecting the neurotransmitters Acetylcholine and Norepinephrine, both of which are boosted by Vitamin B, but nothing is guaranteed. Your best bet is to use a DMAE supplement (Vitamin-B agonist) right before your REM5 cycle, so wake up after 5-6 hours of sleep and take a moderate dose.

Jonesn, I love your answers and insight. It's great to have this kind of perspective here at Dreamviews. Thanks.