I know I've posted so many threads but this is just hard..

Hey guys. :)

I've been off DV for a few weeks now, been busy. I've sort of been in and out of lucid dreaming, so I'm not really that excited about it sometimes and sometimes I am.
Well.. let's see.. I've been to the Lucidology site and tried out some of Nick Newport's stuff.. and after I saw a thread about that it made me change my mind about his nonsense.

So I want to start fresh again, I guess. I've read most of the WILD guides here (and they are most helpful) but I still am not great at WILDing. I either keep falling asleep, or I stay awake, or I'm too lazy to get up in the middle of the night to WILD.

I don't know what's wrong.. maybe I was sorta kinda out of that "phase".
But if anyone could point me in the right direction, say be my "mentor" for having my first successful WILD, I would be so grateful. :)

So please, anyone?

Sure. Just ask a more direct question and I will answer it as best as I can.

Well, one of the goals of WILD is to fall asleep. It's just staying conscious while doing so that's a pain in the ass. ;) You're halfway there! Yay!

Well, if you guys need more info, here's my typical WBTB:

I usually try to wake up 5 hours after I've fallen asleep: (usually with an alarm)

1. I get up and go to the bathroom
2. I don't do much, maybe a RC or 2
3. I lay back down in bed
4. (I haven't done WBTB lately, so this is the last WBTB I have done) I relax by tensing my muscles and letting go the tension
5. Then I think what I do is usually count. I haven't figured out a good way to WILD yet; it usually varies some nights. I'm experimenting. Sometimes I'll count breaths, sometimes I'll just look at my eyelids, sometimes I'll just focus on my breathing, and sometimes I'll daydream.
6. All this usually ends up with the grand finale of: Usually falling asleep or moving on accident without thinking. Or staying awake and not going into paralysis.

Any ideas on how I can find my perfect WBTB time? I really want to achieve FAST WILDS, because I hate the slow relaxation process. :/

Eh, truth be told, you don't really need to do the tension/relaxation thing unless you think it's necessary for falling asleep. Staying anchored to reality is the hardest part, imho. You could try white or pink noise, like a fan or a radio turned to soft static, or a quiet loop recording of waves on a beach, etc. Failing that, daydreaming is a fun way to WILD. I haven't had success with it yet, but by daydreaming before bed, I've managed to increase my in-dream awareness to the point where I've gotten lucid through DILD. :D

So yeah, experiment a bit, see what works best. And good luck. :)

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Originally Posted by Sydney

Well, if you guys need more info, here's my typical WBTB:

I usually try to wake up 5 hours after I've fallen asleep: (usually with an alarm)

1. I get up and go to the bathroom
2. I don't do much, maybe a RC or 2
3. I lay back down in bed
4. (I haven't done WBTB lately, so this is the last WBTB I have done) I relax by tensing my muscles and letting go the tension
5. Then I think what I do is usually count. I haven't figured out a good way to WILD yet; it usually varies some nights. I'm experimenting. Sometimes I'll count breaths, sometimes I'll just look at my eyelids, sometimes I'll just focus on my breathing, and sometimes I'll daydream.
6. All this usually ends up with the grand finale of: Usually falling asleep or moving on accident without thinking. Or staying awake and not going into paralysis.

Any ideas on how I can find my perfect WBTB time? I really want to achieve FAST WILDS, because I hate the slow relaxation process. :/

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I don't know if I am going to explain this well but I will try.

To me it seems its not your WBTB times that you need to work on as much as anticipating the "WILD." If you focus on WILDing, or if your waiting on something to happen, then nothing will happen. You need to find the right balance between waiting and falling asleep.

I recommend reading all of BillyBob's stuff on wilding ----> http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/how-wild-62282/ <-----

Yeah, I think I've read his guide before; but I'll read it again.

Last night I did a WBTB.. sort of like the one up above. After I layed down though.. I was relaxing and.. it was weird.. I never started counting or anything and I fell asleep x_x I think I forgot what I was doing or something.

And since I have school, I think maybe I should attempt on the weekends, and once I get them going, I'll start doing it on weekdays.

@Mario92: I think daydreaming before sleep helps a TON, imo. I find that almost every DILD I have is because I was daydreaming about something before I fell asleep.

I have been trying to use daydreaming before bed (?) to influence the content for YEARS with no results! :bang:

Anyway, if you want to find your REM times do this:

1) For a few times each night note the times that you wake up from a dream.
2) Subtract a half-hour (if early in the night; if early morning then on hour) and set an alarm clock for that time.
3) If the time isn't correct, then you should go ahead and subtract five minutes each night until you hit the exact time that you enter a REM cycle.
4) Have the alarm set for that time. When you wake up, stay awake for 15 seconds or so and try to stay conscious while falling asleep. That isn't near as effective as WILD since it requires a quick lapse in consciousness and it is easier to lose lucidity, but you don't have to go through SP/HH. This will also help you get back to sleep sooner.
5) You have some chance of entering a dream very quickly when you do this, but remember... HANG ON TO YOUR LUCIDITY!!!

I hope I helped in that department. Post more questions if you still have some!

I hope I helped! :)

Okay. I'll try this tonight.

Next time you WILD, try to just be a passive witness to everything that happens to your mind and body as you fall asleep. Just pay attention and watch closely, don't try to force any thoughts. This might help familiarize you with the transitional stage between wakefulness and sleep.

Okay. I just read some stuff in the guide that rynkrt3 mentioned above.. and I remembered that I'm supposed to let my mind wander (while I'm falling asleep) BUT keep an anchor in the back of my mind. Question is.. how do you do that?

You're not supposed to let your mind wander. If you do, that doesn't allow your mind to fall asleep since there is still conscious activity going on. You're supposed to keep your mind as clear as possible so that your mind can fall asleep and you transition to a dream. Think of it as beginning meditation. You won't be perfect, but you should try to keep your mind as clear as possible.

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

You're not supposed to let your mind wander. If you do, that doesn't allow your mind to fall asleep since there is still conscious activity going on. You're supposed to keep your mind as clear as possible so that your mind can fall asleep and you transition to a dream. Think of it as beginning meditation. You won't be perfect, but you should try to keep your mind as clear as possible.

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Meh...I've never fallen asleep from having a clear mind. :P Letting it do its own thing is the most successful method I've found so far for getting to sleep. :3

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Meh...I've never fallen asleep from having a clear mind. :P Letting it do its own thing is the most successful method I've found so far for getting to sleep. :3

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This is for WILD. For falling asleep normally you can think whatever you want.

Oh, okay. I suppose both would work, but yeah, I can definitely see how having a clear mind would be advantageous.

Well, if you did let your mind wander but passively focus on or remember your anchor, wouldn't that work too?

No, it won't work. As I said before, thinking will keep your mind awake, and conscious activity in the brain will keep your mind from falling asleep. Letting your mind wander like that will only keep awake since this is thinking, so your WILD will ultimately fail. Anchors will be of no use; quite the opposite, in fact! It only adds to the activity bill and has no real use here.

Anchors are used inside the dream for stabilization so that the dream won't fall apart. Think about it. Just what are you trying to anchor yourself to? The only thing that you are anchoring yourself to is reality since you aren't in a dream. So, what does this mean? (if you really asked that question... :doh: ) It means that you are just keeping yourself awake and thus will not perform a WILD. Does that sound like a good WILD? I thought not!

If you have questions that will not cause me to repeat what I have already said, feel free to ask or send me a PM! ;)

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Originally Posted by Sydney

Well, if you did let your mind wander but passively focus on or remember your anchor, wouldn't that work too?

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It would work. Daydreaming/mind wandering is itself actually a good anchor for some people.

And Snowboy...be nice to the cute girl, eh? :D

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And Snowboy...be nice to the cute girl, eh?

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Lol.

Well, actually I was kinda meaning let your mind do its own thing. Not like making it daydream and think.
But thanks for the info, Snowboy :)

Yup, yup, mind wandering is perfectly fine, as long as you passively engage your anchor, whatever that may be. :D

And if standard anchors aren't working for you, and you can't find that right amount of focus, there's some interesting tech out there you may want to try.

What comes to mind immediately is something LaBerge suggested in his book. Namely, passively holding your forearm up at a ninety-degree angle (by bending your elbow) and keeping it up as you drift to sleep, letting your mind wander if you so desire. It should fall on its own as you lose all consciousness, alerting you and giving you that extra edge you need to stay aware.

Also, give me a bit and I'll address all of Snowboy's misinformation.

Done:

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

4) Have the alarm set for that time. When you wake up, stay awake for 15 seconds or so and try to stay conscious while falling asleep. That isn't near as effective as WILD since it requires a quick lapse in consciousness and it is easier to lose lucidity, but you don't have to go through SP/HH. This will also help you get back to sleep sooner.

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He makes good points on all except this one.

First off, this is still a WILD. Furthermore, what you're doing here is actually more effective than most WILDs as you should be very close to REM. And no matter how you look at it, you'll still have to deal with SP (but no worries, it generally isn't as intense or momentous as most make it out to be).

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

You're not supposed to let your mind wander. If you do, that doesn't allow your mind to fall asleep since there is still conscious activity going on. You're supposed to keep your mind as clear as possible so that your mind can fall asleep and you transition to a dream. Think of it as beginning meditation. You won't be perfect, but you should try to keep your mind as clear as possible.

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If you don't let your mind follow its own course, then by definition you're taking conscious control of it. The mind tends to wander naturally before sleep, so anything you can do to help emulate or feed that process is a good thing. Putting small dams in the rapids that open to the subconscious sea is counterproductive, and often futile. And most meditation is actually done by simply observing that flow, not partaking, not blocking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

This is for WILD. For falling asleep normally you can think whatever you want.

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You still need to fall asleep to WILD, no? So why wouldn't you try to facilitate that by using lessons learned from falling asleep normally? Modifications need to made, obviously, but if you completely ignore a well-established set of ideas here, you're committing an injustice.

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

No, it won't work. As I said before, thinking will keep your mind awake, and conscious activity in the brain will keep your mind from falling asleep. Letting your mind wander like that will only keep awake since this is thinking, so your WILD will ultimately fail. Anchors will be of no use; quite the opposite, in fact! It only adds to the activity bill and has no real use here.

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I think Snowboy is the only person who has ever recommended someone not use and anchor to WILD. Yes, it's possible, but it's a terrible idea unless you've got a ton of experience.

I've already addressed the mind wandering thing.

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Originally Posted by Snowboy

Anchors are used inside the dream for stabilization so that the dream won't fall apart. Think about it. Just what are you trying to anchor yourself to? The only thing that you are anchoring yourself to is reality since you aren't in a dream. So, what does this mean? (if you really asked that question... :doh: ) It means that you are just keeping yourself awake and thus will not perform a WILD. Does that sound like a good WILD? I thought not!

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To everyone who is inclined to believe this, please check out BillyBob's guide "How To Wild" to review the generally accepted definition of "anchor" and why/how they are used. Rynkrt3 was kind enough to link to it, and for that I thank him.

And for those eager to learn all they can, I provide some further detail on anchors in my Comprehensive Guide.

I agree with that you have said, Mzzkc :) And Billybob's guide sure did help me a TON.

Last night I went to bed at 9 pm and woke up at 2:45 am. I stayed awake for about 5 minutes, Reality checking. I layed down and relaxed and did the anchor (I do the pain, you know what Billybob does, because it is super helpful and easy :)) I layed on my side first and put my hand under me. After a few minutes I was so uncomfortable I decided to move my hand. So I rolled over and I think I tried to put my hand under my back or something, but I fell asleep. Even though I failed, I still had a DILD which I am proud of :) Not as much clarity, and it was crappy, but at least it was still lucid.

Yay! Congrats! :boogie:

I understand what you mean, Mzzck, but I'm just going over what you said and put in my opinion.

I think most people misunderstood what I meant by this. It's a bit hard, actually. You are just trying to stay conscious, but you are also trying to fall asleep normally. I'm not talking about the consciousness you have in a WILD, but something else. If this makes no sense, like I said, it's hard to explain. What happens is you are trying to stay conscious while you fall asleep, you experience a lapse of consciousness when the SP/HH and all of that happens, then you're in a dream. It's hard to explain, but it's much better than a WILD.

The mind wanders during and after sleep as well as during the day, which is completely conscious. I don't see why it would make any difference to stop the flow since it's still conscious control. :P

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Originally Posted by Mzzkc

You still need to fall asleep to WILD, no? So why wouldn't you try to facilitate that by using lessons learned from falling asleep normally? Modifications need to made, obviously, but if you completely ignore a well-established set of ideas here, you're committing an injustice.

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That comment was separate from the other technique that I described. You can fall asleep with a close to clear mind, can you not?

I still stand by with what I said about anchors, even after reading a short bit on anchors in Billybob's tutorial.. Keeping your mind clear is enough to hold onto consciousness.

I hope you get better over time, Sydney! Sounds like you're on the right track! :)

Thanks, Snowboy and Maro92. :)

I'll post further results here if anyone is interested.