Work Area for SP sticky thread.

[Mzzkc]

We have DV server issues? Every respectable company that handles a large volume of network traffic (internally or otherwise) has server issues. In DV's past, some data has been lost because of this. I don't know the current architecture (since the latest switch), but unless they're handling redundancy in a RACS-like fashion, or backing up the disc(s) every hour, a crash could result in lost work.

[Sivason]

I am sure I am ok with the idea, but lets worry about that after we get a thread together. I am going to need to set up a google account, and have you walk me through every ting. I don't mind the idea of first hand accounts of an actual sleep disorder. I am sure it would add intrest to it, snd help people understand what it is actually like.

[Sivason]

Thanks for your help so far everyone. I will be putting the thread together Tuesday morning. I need to complete it and move on before I become less interested. I want to keep it simple. I have 4 testimonials so far. If you (anyone with lots of experience in WILD) post a potential contribution on this thread, it may be included in the final product, tuesday. I will leave it unstickied for a few days, to let the other staff members decide if it would be good as a sticky.

[cmind]

I would have said something, but honestly you guys pretty much said everything I thought needed to be said. All I would say is that I, too, have not experienced sleep paralysis in relation to WILD. I have experienced SP by itself, but WILDing during this SP would have been impossible because my state of mind from the non-lucid dream I was waking up from was still present -- even lying paralyzed in bed, I continued to be non-lucid. Becoming lucid in SP, for me, would be something more akin to a DILD than a WILD.

[Sivason]

Thanks Cmind, that is interesting, and will be considered for the thread.

[AURON]

more SP - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views Lets find Kaomea...or not. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views I get it all the time...there's a "sp*" tag in my DJ...sometimes HH/HI happen with them. I've been getting it all my life, and the basic thing that happens is I'm either falling asleep, or waking up and suddenly I can't move. I can open my eyes, but that's about it. My heart feels like it speeds up, and I feel like I can't breathe. Anxiety, caffeine and bad sleeping habits increase my frequency of having them. I have turned SP into WILDs, sometimes SP shows up randomly when attempting a WILD, and rarely I'll have a normal WILD without SP. I have turned random SP episodes into WILDs by simply relaxing through it, and visualizing the scene or simply getting out of bed, when everything is over. The visualization part helps relieve some of the crazy things that go on during the 2-3 minute time frame that it happens, and it also, helps start a scene in a different location. Since everyone's eyes can open during SP the dreamer is more likely to have the dream start out in there room. I helped create the official definition of REM Atonia, and Sleep Paralysis that's found in the WIKI. I'm not sure what else you're looking for, but feel free to ask me any questions. EDIT: Also post #4 http://www.dreamviews.com/f41/verdic...0/#post1942590

[melanieb]

I took the material already posted and rearranged a few things. I made some changes to wording, grammar and punctuation. What I'm posting here is by no means perfect but I tried not to take too much away from the 'feeling' of the material. Sivason, I added some of your personal experience from the intro into the area where you provide expert testimony. It could probably use cleaning up but I didn't want to destroy the feeilng you were trying to convey. Take a look and see what you think. Many of the staff and long term members of DreamViews have decided that a serious misunderstanding about Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers. We have had to answer more questions about SP than nearly anything else. This guide was written in response to that problem. First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? : The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition which affects the ability to wake up or go to sleep properly. People with this condition feel as if they are trapped while either going to sleep or waking up. They have almost no strength to get up and often have a fearful experience. Sleep Paralysis is a sleep disorder. A basic search of readily-available information reveals about 1 in 250 people experience true SP on a frequent basis. A man named Dr. Stephen LaBerge is very well known for his clinical research into lucid dreaming. The following article written by LaBerge may be the starting place for the current state of confusion regarding Sleep Paralysis. Please take a minute to read it over, LaBerge Article on Sleep Paralysis. In the article Dr. LaBerge discusses Sleep paralysis and its effects. He attempts to reinforce the idea that the experience is not to be feared and is a rare event. He also suggests that based on one man’s experience, someone stuck in SP might be able to transition into a lucid dream, the likely source for the confusion. Current suspicion is that someone wrote a guide telling the sufferers of SP how they could convert the terrifying state into a WILD (Wake Initiated Lucid Dream). Unfortunately this is not useful to 249 out of every 250 lucid dreamers! The idea was spread incorrectly as a normal WILD event. Sleep Paralysis (SP) is not a normal part of a WILD event and should not be a consideration in WILD attempts. The Lucid Dreaming community has been calling REM Atonia by the wrong name of Sleep Paralysis (SP) and we should stop doing it. The primary factor for the term getting so misused is people on dreaming forums like this one trying to explain how to correctly achieve a WILD. When people join the forum they often say, “Someone told me I had to reach SP.” We would reply, “You do not reach a point when you cannot move. SP is what stops your sleeping body from acting out dreams.” That is not actually true. The normal condition that prevents you from jerking around in bed, during a dream is properly called REM Atonia. The LD community has been calling REM Atonia by the wrong name (SP) and we should stop doing it. So what does REM Atonia mean? It is a change in chemicals and brain function that causes your body to remain still while you dream. REM Atonia does not prevent you from waking yourself up and moving normally . That is why it is not true Sleep Paralysis. People are experiencing awareness during sleep of a normal nightly process, one that does not truly prevent you from moving. Some people can actually feel the chemical change begin. It may feel like you are not connected to your body and many people describe it as a heavy-blanket feeling. It may feel like you are on narcotics, and moving would take a conscious effort. Here is why we talk about it (incorrectly calling it SP.) In a WILD you are attempting to stay aware while your body falls asleep. You will be able to experience the stages of sleep and one event you can sometimes experience is REM Atonia. Some methods of WILD use this as a mile post in the WILD process. Here is what six well known experts and staff have to say in support of you all not worrying about SP and moving on to some useful material. - Sivason: I have used the term SP incorrectly in the past to describe a state where the WILDer experiences the chemical changes of REM Atonia. In my method of WILDing you observe the progress of your sleep, and when you feel REM Atonia, you shift what your mind is doing. Many people call REM Atonia SP, but I intend to never use the term SP to describe it again. It is not hard to type out 'REM Atonia' instead of SP. Using the term SP causes everyone to become confused. I use a system that does require awareness of REM Atonia, and I will continue to teach it, but let’s all stop calling it SP. In my WILDs, for instance, when I experience REM Atonia, I change my mindset from an anchor (counting, mantra) to trying visualization to induce a dream. People just started calling it SP. Again, it is using the term incorrectly and adds to the confusion. Let’s all agree to stop using the term as it just complicates everything. By learning what each part of your sleep feels like you can improve your chances of pulling off a WILD. If you are reading a tutorial from now on I suggest you take the term SP to mean REM Atonia or awareness that such a state has been reached. That is unless it involves you supposedly being able to start moving in a dream, because you are supposedly paralyzed; I would laugh those off and find a new tutorial altogether, if it mentions that kind of stuff. It is only going to work for 1 in 250 of us. I have successfully been using WILD methods for over 20 years, but on no occasion have I been even slightly paralyzed! I sometimes feel as if moving would be hard but that is a natural feeling because my body has fallen asleep. I can always get my body to move if needed. Do not worry about SP and move on to some training that actually works. Unless you were experiencing SP before you wanted to learn lucid dreaming, you will probably never experience it and can forget about it. Please stop using the term SP and forget the idea entirely! You will not ever reach actual SP, so let's move forward, leaving the days of SP confusion behind us. Call REM Atonia by its true name, describe what you mean if it is not REM Atonia you have been using SP for, or coin a phrase that you can use instead. - Sageous: First, I have had many thousands of WILD's, and never once cared about SP, much less looked for it. No one should. SP is not a mystical or unusual event by any measure because REM Atonia happens naturally every time you are in REM -- it must occur, or else we’d all be flailing about in our beds, or sleepwalking, or shouting, or … well, you get it. That you are consciously aware of it because it remained switched on a bit too long or switched on early does not make it special, unless you consider your ability to defy nature and notice it as something special -- which is a pretty cool thing, I suppose. SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to and then, invariably, your chances of Lucid Dreaming will fade behind the empty excitement of SP. It is critical for WILD that you understand that SP is not dangerous; it is not an invasion by monsters or your body failing you or a break from reality, or any of the other things noted on the forums by breathless dreamers who encounter SP unprepared. It is just a natural bodily function that you happen to notice because you possess waking awareness at a time when nature never intended you to be awake. So if you ever encounter SP (I rarely do) just relax, acknowledge it, and move on! Most of the time SP isn’t really even SP: People who are talking about their experiences in SP are really talking about their experiences in NREM sleep, which can include the vibrations, sensory deprivation, and other assorted bells and whistles associated with SP these days. This is sort of a shame, because consciously navigating NREM sleep is an adventure unto itself (and, BTW, the place the Tibetan sleep yogis like to visit) and to belittle it by calling it SP is to miss out on an otherwise good thing. - Gab: I have had 36 WILDs and 20 DEILDs and many more attempts. In 10 months I have never experienced any full body paralysis (SP) when WILDing. Any sensation you are experiencing during your WILD attempt is a part of the falling asleep process. You can feel vibrations, floating feeling, sounds, acceleration, your body being distorted, heaviness and being relaxed. It happens every time but we normally don't notice it because by then we are asleep. Lucid dreamers going for a WILD notice it because they stay conscious and aware during the falling asleep process. SP is something you either experience or not. Most people don't so waiting for it or making it a certain point in your attempt that you need to get to, or get past, or experience, is detrimental. If you have not experienced SP while falling asleep normally then you are quite unlikely to experience it during a WILD attempt. It makes no difference if you experience SP or not, or if you think you have/have not experienced it. You just go through your WILD attempt, until you enter your dream lucidly.

[AURON]

Mel...SP can occur while a person is waking up or going to sleep. Information wise, everything else looks good.

[melanieb]

Mel...SP can occur while a person is waking up or going to sleep. I do know that from what I read ages ago. My edits above were mainly concerned with making the material of others readable and understandable to a broad audience. If you would like to suggest an edit please post it here. I'm not sure which sentence you are referring to and my kids are loud now so I am a bit distracted.

[AURON]

First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? : The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition which affects the ability to wake up or, go to sleep properly. People with this condition partially wake up but feel as if they are trapped while either going to sleep or waking up. They have almost no strength to get up and often have a fearful experience. Sleep Paralysis is a sleep disorder. A basic search for information reveals about 1 in 250 people experience true SP on a frequent basis.

[melanieb]

I added in your edits, Auron. I will remind everyone that changes can be made at any time and the whole document can be entirely rewritten if you find any of it objectionable. This was merely an easy way to put it all together. Even if there are server issues our work will not disappear. I simply did my work in Microsoft Word and copied changes to the document, including Auron's.

[Sivason]

I added in your edits, Auron. I will remind everyone that changes can be made at any time and the whole document can be entirely rewritten if you find any of it objectionable. This was merely an easy way to put it all together. Even if there are server issues our work will not disappear. I simply did my work in Microsoft Word and copied changes to the document, including Auron's. It looks great. thanks. I like every part of it so far. So, it turns out that Auron, is one of the few who actually have SP as a condition and has used it to enter LDs. He easily meets my criteria for an expert, so I am crossing my fingers he will be the source of our fourth expert opinion. How about it Auron? You have a point of view that would be awesome to include. Some people do have true SP and hearing that you have made it work for you would be encouragement for them.

[nina]

Many of the staff and long term members of DreamViews have decided that a serious misunderstanding about Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers Please edit this. So far I have seen 2 Dream Guides and 1 Moderator post in this thread. This does not equate to "many of the staff"...and I actually disagree with several of the things being said in here and do not want this generally associated as being representative of how staff feels. First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? : The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition which affects the ability to wake up or go to sleep properly. People with this condition feel as if they are trapped while either going to sleep or waking up. They have almost no strength to get up and often have a fearful experience. Sleep Paralysis is a sleep disorder.[/B] A more technical definition maybe? It sounds like this was directed at children. Unfortunately this is not useful to 249 out of every 250 lucid dreamers! Incorrect. According to your statistic "1 in 250 people experience true SP on a frequent basis"...but you have not told me anything about the source population? Regular People? Lucid dreamers? Narcoleptics? Where are you getting this statistic? Wouldn't it be more relevant to tell us how many of these people are lucid dreamers? The amount of lucid dreamers that experience SP frequently would be a far more relevant statistic. The statistic you provided...is not, so making speaking generalizations that discussing SP in relation to lucid dreaming is useless is not a very open minded approach. What about DEILD? DEILD is directly related to SP...and I'd say it is of much use to discuss sleep paralysis to lucid dreamers. The primary factor for the term getting so misused is people on dreaming forums like this one trying to explain how to correctly achieve a WILD. When people join the forum they often say, “Someone told me I had to reach SP.” We would reply, “You do not reach a point when you cannot move. Really? You can move around when you are dreaming? Would you mind video taping this? I find it hard to believe. And if you CAN move around while you are sleeping, then you have a sleep disorder. Your body is supposed to be paralyzed, that's what REM atonia IS. You will NOT enter the dreaming state until your body is in REM atonia (muscle atonia is the same in REM atonia and SP). So what does REM Atonia mean? It is a change in chemicals and brain function that causes your body to remain still while you dream. REM Atonia does not prevent you from waking yourself up and moving normally . That is why it is not true Sleep Paralysis. People are experiencing awareness during sleep of a normal nightly process, one that does not truly prevent you from moving. Some people can actually feel the chemical change begin. It may feel like you are not connected to your body and many people describe it as a heavy-blanket feeling. It may feel like you are on narcotics, and moving would take a conscious effort. So what is "false" sleep paralysis if you are calling something "true" sleep paralysis? Also, for some people, SP is a normal nightly process, again avoid making overgeneralizations. Also, can you explain how REM atonia does not prevent you from moving? Because technically, that's the point of REM atonia, to prevent you from moving. I see little sense in what is being stated above. I appreciate that this thread is intended to be helpful to new members or those learning how to WILD, and I do agree that it would be more correct to state REM atonia when talking about WILDing rather than SP...however, I also feel that there is misinformation/misunderstanding here that needs to be cleared up before it is presented as anything representative of "staff" or "experts". Also, it needs to be a little more scientific and better researched imo.

[Sivason]

Nina, I would love your help with the thread if you are interested. All of the stuff you read from MelanieB was written by me. Here, check out this DJ post, 09-02-12 DEILD Testing REM atonia - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views I can always choose to move my body despite how intense an LD I am having, and I can wake myself and start moving my real body instantly. If you throw water on any dreamer they normally will jump write up. If REM atonia is the same as SP then I should not be able to wake myself instantly from LDs and normal dreamers should not be able to respond to their alarm clocks. I do not mind editing the part about many staff. In the end I do not care if some one feels this should not be a sticky thread. The issue is supposed to be very very straight forward and simple. I do not want the thread being a complex guide. It is 100% true, and I doubt anyone will argue, that true full body paralysis is not experienced by many many WILDers. 1 in 250 is a rough conversion from 0.4% of the population. Do you want to find a more relevant number of people with reoccuring, frequent true medical sleep paralysis? If so we will probably be willing to use what ever statistic you provide. To clarify, we are not talking about any Lucid dream hobbiest term 'SP' we are talking about sleep paralysis as it would be defined if you searched general medical refrences. It is not the same, and is a source of confusion. Why use a term if it is already being used for something else and is mis-leading? The point is only a few get true SP. If some get true SP and can use it to WILD then I want to have opinions posted by them (if they meet the criteria, which you way more than do). I was aiming for 6 expert opinions and still have only 3. If you would be so kind as to help make the thread work, and offer your opinion as an expert it would be awesome! The only opinion that would not work well, is if someone suggests every/most people can induce a true paralytic state.

[nina]

Rem atonia is paralysis. Maybe you should try collecting actual data from lucid dreamers. Create a poll and ask people if they experience paralysis at any point during a WILD. I think most people do, and I think your assumption that most WILDers are going to be like you and not experience some sort of paralysis is inaccurate. Also the fact that people are more likely to experience SP in between WILDs, just shows that there are subtleties involved here that are not so black and white as you are trying to make things seem. It is not unusual for a term to be used incorrectly. Consider subconscious and unconscious. The correct term for what most people refer to here as their subconscious is unconscious. But it's generally accepted that people are more familiar with the term subconscious, so that's why people continue to use it, for purposes of understanding. Sleep paralysis is simply a condition that results from awareness that REM atonia has continued longer than it should have after waking, or awareness of REM atonia paralyzing your body as it prepares to dream. Therefore sleep paralysis is a direct product of REM atonia. The terms overlap. It's not quite as simple as you are trying to make it. I'm all for the promotion of using the term REM atonia in place of SP for WILD tutorials and such, but you still have to acknowledge that SP is, for many people, still a part of WILDs/LDs and not dismiss it as merely some rare medical condition, because that is untrue. The majority of people I have spoken to here have experienced SP at some point.

[Sivason]

So, in your WILD experience have you encountered true paralysis, where moving was not an option. I do not mean a lead blanket narcotic effect (I think we all experience that) but a true inability to move if you needed to? If so, do you ever experience it/ did you experience it prior to your lucid dreaming skills? In your many many years as one of our trusted leaders, have you not also run into dozens or humdreds of people who thought they must become paralysised or they were WILDing wrong? Part of my awareness about REM atonia, is the ability I have cultivated over 25 years to remain almost fully concious (maybe not rare/ maybe rare) through each phase of sleep. Not just going from wake into a dream like DEILD, but maintaining near full awareness through say an hout of nREM, then REM and back put of it. At no point, if my wife called out my name, would I fail to be able to get up out of bed. I will start a poll thread today. I want to know cases of true (I can not move if I NEEDED to) cases of SP. Another answer will be a state of heavy blanket, concious effort to move or no real sedation of movement at all. I will also put an answer for I have little experience with WILD. Off to work now, but I will post the poll thread link soon.

[Sageous]

Wow. Well Sivason, the gods of DV have spoken: SP stays, period. I hope you continue to fight the good fight to end the festival of misinformation surrounding SP on these forums, thereby bringing new dreamers closer to actual lucidity, and more experienced dreamers back to their roots. But you may be doomed to revising your definition of SP right back to what it was when you started. That is a shame. Nina: I must join Sivason by repeating that I too have never, ever been unable to move after noticing that I was still in REM Atonia (I woke ahead of my body). How can that be, given that I've been doing this for well over 30 years and have had thousands of WILDs and DEILDs? Shouldn't I have gotten stuck at least once? Could this be because I developed my LD'ing skills on my own years before Internet forums and all this SP mythology existed, years before even LaBerge cared a wit about SP? Could it be that the voluminous Internet-based SP mythology has created an expectation of SP in Newbies and Veterans alike? Hmm... Yes, REM Atonia is a powerful thing, but so are my consciousness, my reticular system, and my fundamental awareness throughout the experience that this is my body and it is not going to do anything to hurt me or hold me if I need to do something else. I'm not sure why you are so adamant about holding to the fallacy that SP is a force to be reckoned with, rather than just another factor of sleep. Yes, you did properly define SP as the conscious recognition of REM Atonia, but your posted exceptions and laundry list of often difficult corrections seem to betray that you are fine with the more popular definitions. Yes, the novelty of consciously experiencing REM Atonia is complicated, and will vary from dreamer to dreamer, but I think that is the point in all this: That complication has led dreamers and would-be experts to misinterpret their passages through NREM and their moments noticing REM Atonia, and those misinterpretations have taken on a life of their own, to the point where a pillar of the DV forums has deemed it okay to call SP important simply because everyone thinks it is. Is that a good thing? Not for the many dreamers who come to this site looking for sincere guidance. The trouble with a poll is obvious to me: All it will do is continue to fuel and codify the misunderstandings about SP. Yes, you'll get a high percentage of dreamers who are sure that they experience SP regularly, and many will say you must "reach it" in order for a WILD to be successful. I think Sivason's whole point about tapping the experience of dreamers with long-term success sans SP was to show that the conventional wisdom in this regard is wrong, no matter how popular it might be. I have a feeling you already know that, Nina, yet you want to return this endeavor to a popularity contest rather than an attempt to break the withering falsehood that SP matters. Is that really what DV wants to do? If so, what does that say about DV's opinion of accomplished dreamers' experience and wisdom? Do you want us to stop posting what we believe, or, more importantly, stop sharing what we know? Sorry for my tone, Nina. Please keep in mind that I respect your experience and wisdom, and that everything I say was meant in the best of faith and in an effort to support Sivason's action -- an action that I apparently think is far more important to the successful education of new dreamers and to the long-term credibility of this site than do you. Could it be I misunderstood? I hope so! At any rate, if you're still with me, please forgive any unintended callousness.

[gab]

I'm all for the promotion of using the term REM atonia in place of SP for WILD tutorials and such, but you still have to acknowledge that SP is, for many people, still a part of WILDs/LDs and not dismiss it as merely some rare medical condition, because that is untrue. The majority of people I have spoken to here have experienced SP at some point. Sorry to butt in on your conversation. I don't think we are trying to say, that SP doesn't exist. What we are trying to do is dispell the myth, that you have to go through SP if you want to WILD. This started from many posts of noobs coming to this site and their first post would be "Can't enter SP". They are obviously under the impression, that they need to have SP, or they don't get a WILD. If they were routinely having SP before starting to WILD, they wouldn't have to ask how to enter SP. But since they have not encounter SP so far, it's safe to say, they will not while WILDing either, or at least they shouldn't be aiming at achieving SP. Second issue is, when people claiming to have SP describe it as feeling of heaviness, floating, vibrations, hallucinations. I think that's just the transition sensations you get when going from one sleep stage to next. Even this is not experienced by everybody, or all the time. People who describe their SP as most terrifying experience of their lives, when they couldn't move if their life depended on it, accompanied with visions of intruders, I think that's THE SP. And the term true SP is a made up term to differenciate the immobilizing state from SP wrongly described by posters as vibrations and such. I did have "true" SP only twice. Both times upon awakening in the morning. Both times I could not move at all and remember strugling to open my eyes or talk or move at all. On my second one, I was on a table surrounded by "aliens". And during my last WILD I just entered LD. I was walking down the hallway ready to explore the next room, when I noticed my cat IWL putting her paws on my sofa, which usually means, she is about to use me as a stepping stone on her way down from the desk. So I lifted one arm to cover my chest, while still walking down the hallway and entering the room, which was really cluttered and I was deciding if I should check it out or move on. Then I lifted my second arm to discourage my cat from jumping on me. The point is, I think, that people should not be trying to enter SP. You either enter it or not, but it doesn't matter either way, for the purpose of lucid dreaming.

[melanieb]

I will start a poll thread today. I want to know cases of true (I can not move if I NEEDED to) cases of SP. Another answer will be a state of heavy blanket, concious effort to move or no real sedation of movement at all. I will also put an answer for I have little experience with WILD. Off to work now, but I will post the poll thread link soon. I think it would also be good to send a PM to each staff member for their contributions and opinions. Additionally you can link everyone to the debate thread which spawned this work thread so they can see what prompted this effort. I'm mainly here to make your work comprehensible to all without tearing it up and making it my writing. I will be glad to help with research efforts and check statistics. Nina brought up some good points, info I also considered while reading your material.

[nina]

I have a feeling you already know that, Nina, yet you want to return this endeavor to a popularity contest rather than an attempt to break the withering falsehood that SP matters. Is that really what DV wants to do? If so, what does that say about DV's opinion of accomplished dreamers' experience and wisdom? Do you want us to stop posting what we believe, or, more importantly, stop sharing what we know? You are accusing me of wanting to turn this into a "popularity contest"...are you serious? I would never have bothered to make a post in this thread if I hadn't wanted to do one simple thing, help dispel misinformation and avoid further misunderstandings. Nothing pisses me off more than misinformation, except maybe arrogance. And I'm pretty offended by your completely unfounded and immature accusations, not to mention the sardonic tone reverberating from every sentence in your reply. I really don't have time for this headache...I was only trying to help. It's clear that you have absolutely zero need for my help or feedback since you already think you know everything there is to know about the subject and the only opinion that matters is your own. Did you ever bother to stop and think that maybe you are the exception, not the rule? Maybe most people DO experience paralysis...just not you. So telling people that they WON'T or shouldn't expect to feel paralysis during REM atonia seems misinformed. I'm not saying to keep calling anything SP that isn't SP. Did you even bother to read the part where I stated that I am in favor of using the correct term REM atonia? Or anything else I said for that matter. The fact that you would even take what I said and claim that I am trying to make this about me somehow just goes to show me how warped your view really is. I need to get back to studying for exams, so I'll respond to the rest of it later (gab your response was especially helpful thank you).

[Sivason]

You are accusing me of wanting to turn this into a "popularity contest"...are you serious? I would never have bothered to make a post in this thread if I hadn't wanted to do one simple thing, help dispel misinformation and avoid further misunderstandings. Nothing pisses me off more than misinformation, except maybe arrogance. And I'm pretty offended by your completely unfounded and immature accusations, not to mention the sardonic tone reverberating from every sentence in your reply. I really don't have time for this headache...I was only trying to help. It's clear that you have absolutely zero need for my help or feedback since you already think you know everything there is to know about the subject and the only opinion that matters is your own. Did you ever bother to stop and think that maybe you are the exception, not the rule? Maybe most people DO experience paralysis...just not you. So telling people that they WON'T or shouldn't expect to feel paralysis during REM atonia seems misinformed. I'm not saying to keep calling anything SP that isn't SP. Did you even bother to read the part where I stated that I am in favor of using the correct term REM atonia? Or anything else I said for that matter. The fact that you would even take what I said and claim that I am trying to make this about me somehow just goes to show me how warped your view really is. I need to get back to studying for exams, so I'll respond to the rest of it later (gab your response was especially helpful thank you). Sorry Nina, I do not think Sageous meant a popularity contest, refering to you as a DV personality. I think he meant the popularity of one idea over another. I think and hope it was a terrible misunderstanding. When he says the "DV Gods" there is some truth in that. Really, what members who have been active at all lately are more 'famous' or respected than you? Any project or thought you chose to oppose could not suceed. I am sorry Sageous pissed you off, but If you supported the thread (after needed changes) and gave a statement as 1 of the 6 experts, it would be amazing! You would be able to state that you use SP and give any info you wish. The only thing I would ask, is one sentence supporting the idea that "SP is not a needed part of WILD." If you feel it is a needed and expected part of WILD then I am confused and suprised, but that would be your right to an opinion. I am not at all sure that many WILDers experience a state where they can not move. Please excuse the extreme nature of this question, but I am trying to determine if we could possably be talking about the same thing. When you WILD, if a man entered your house and started to walk off with your child or sibling, and they called out for help,,, do you honestly mean "you could not move in response?" As in you would have to let the kidnapping happen, and later tell the FBI "I was stuck in SP." Also, did you experience cases of SP unrelated to lucid dreaming or WILD? One last comment for Nina, I would love your help on this. However, you say you feel SP is far more common than not (or may be), but I have yet to find a single person willing to make a statement that they experience true bodily paralysis, and I have 3 that say they do not. Auron, says he has, but does not imply it is a needed or normal part of his LDing. Looking for both sides, but at the moment it looks like 3 to 1-ish. Gab, I can also move my body during a vivid REM LD, I have developed the ability to do so with out waking up. It is just like you described with your cat. I do not know if that is rare or not. If I am in an LD and something external draws my attention, I can stay in the lD and slowly move my external body, while staying lucid. That is the method I used in the DJ entry about testing REM atonia.

[WDr]

Sorry wrong thread...

[melanieb]

I've been keeping up with things. Nina, I do hope you will contribute more as you have time. I know you're busy with school midterms. I will make a new edit on some of the material tomorrow, just to keep up with some of the extra information as it evolves. I'll also try and find some good info for reference. Please link any references you find here. They will help. I will also look over the debate thread again. I would also like to get Mzzkc to post something. Catch you on this tomorrow.

[Mzzkc]

I did some editing of the intro. Don't have any more time today, but I don't think the thread is quite at the point where I can throw my full endorsement behind it. The stuff regarding REM atonia is just...odd, and contrary to my current understanding of how that whole thing goes down. Feel free to use these edits, though: Some of the staff, and long-term DreamViews members, believe that a serious misunderstanding regarding Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers. Due to this widespread confusion, we’ve found ourselves answering more questions about SP than nearly anything else. This guide was written in response to that problem. First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? Put simply: sleep paralysis is a medical condition wherein the victim is conscious during full-body atonia during REM and occasionally NREM sleep. People with this condition are, quite literally, trapped within their body as they slip into sleep or awaken from a dream. They cannot move any part of their body, except their eyes, and often experience some degree of fear and/or hallucinations. Sleep Paralysis is a sleep disorder; a basic Internet search reveals about 1 in 250 people experience SP on a frequent basis. [citation needed] Dr. Stephen LaBerge, a man well known for his clinical research into lucid dreaming, and co-author of the book “Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming”, wrote the following article: LaBerge Article on Sleep Paralysis. Some of us have reason to believe this article may be the very origin of the current confusion surrounding Sleep Paralysis. If you haven’t already, please take a minute to read it over. To summarize: in the article Dr. LaBerge discusses Sleep paralysis and its effects. He attempts to reinforce the idea that the experience is not to be feared, as it is a rare event. Dr. LaBerge also suggests that based on one man’s experience, a subject stuck in SP may be able to transition into a lucid dream. That postulation is quite probably the source from which today’s prevalent misunderstanding arose. Well meaning people took that special case at face value, and guides insisting that SP was the gateway to WILD (Wake Initiated Lucid Dream) began popping up like wildflowers. Unfortunately this is not useful to 249 out of every 250 lucid dreamers![citation needed] Because of that, sleep paralysis is an abnormal experience, and should not be the focus of WILD attempts for the majority of the population. Of course, the primary factor perpetuating the term’s misuse lies with people on dreaming forums, such as this one, trying to explain how to correctly achieve a WILD. When people join the forum they often say, ”Someone told me I had to reach SP.” Someone would reply, ”You do not reach a point when you cannot move. SP is what stops your sleeping body from acting out dreams.” That is not actually true. The actual process that prevents you from jerking around in bed, during a dream is properly called REM Atonia. The LDing community has been improperly calling REM Atonia by the wrong name (SP), and we should make a collective effort to cut it out.

[Sivason]

We have Auron's offical contribution. Thanks Auron! A lot of people on this forum have reported that they have experienced the feeling that they can't move their body when they try to WILD. I'm pretty sure the majority of them have Isolated Sleep Paralysis (Body won't move while in NREM either waking or going to sleep, and if a person tries to move it's going to take everything in that persons will to break out of it. Also, that person DOES NOT have any other sleep disorders) which is true SP. When this happens, HH and HI can occur, but doesn't define it, and that's where a lot of people get things mixed up. A WILD is a very hard technique for the great majority because of the discipline involved. However, people with isolated sleep paralysis (the population who have had the feeling where they can't move at all when they're going to sleep or waking up numerous times in their lives without attempting a WILD) tend to have an advantage. They know exactly how far they are in a transition because ISP acts as a good indicator to where they are in their phase, because it generally carries over and becomes REM Atonia. The moderators can try to all limit the amount of inaccurate information out there, but it's best that the knowledgeable people who care about this subject take a stand. I'm going to address the people who've actually gone through it (paralysis), and make sure that what they know has happened to them wasn't something that's all in their heads. The bottom line is that a handful of people actually experience the inability to move while trying to WILD. They also experience it while trying to go to sleep and wake up. Tutorials that mention SP often do not say, "hey is this is a WILD guide for people who suffer from isolated sleep paralysis" No...most of the time they generalize that "SP" is the next step. So that part has to be taken out or rewritten. It's the very reason why this thread was created in the first place. To address false information, and have it corrected and deleted. So the misinformed people who look at things will be enlightened along with the people who haven't read a single tutorial. When I initially started out, I would wait solely for the onset of ISP to kick in because I could feel it. Like I said...it's a great indicator of when it's go time. I would just ride it out, and when it stopped. I would get out of my bed and literally be in the dream. Unfortunately, it doesn't work all the time. Over time, I noticed some of my WILDs didn't involve ISP whatsoever. That's when I began to differentiate the two. It could also the reason why a lot of people get caught up in talking about "waiting for sp". There have been many instances where I've gone through the transitional phase and sat there in darkness, because I was waiting for ISP. What I should have been doing is getting up out of bed and RCing. more SP - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views Lets find Kaomea...or not. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views I get true paralysis (ISP) all the time...there's a "sp*" tag in my DJ...sometimes HH/HI happen with them. I've been getting it all my life, and the basic thing that happens is I'm either falling asleep, or waking up and suddenly I can't move. I can open my eyes, but that's about it. My heart feels like it speeds up, and I feel like I can't breathe. Anxiety, caffeine and bad sleeping habits increase my frequency of having them. I have turned SP into WILDs, sometimes SP shows up randomly when attempting a WILD, and rarely I'll have a normal WILD without SP. I have turned random SP episodes into WILDs by simply relaxing through it, and visualizing the scene or simply getting out of bed, when everything is over. The visualization part helps relieve some of the crazy things that go on during the 2-3 minute time frame that it happens, and it also, helps start a scene in a different location. Since everyone's eyes can open during SP the dreamer is more likely to have the dream start out in there room. http://www.dreamviews.com/f41/verdic...0/#post1942590 I don't know how much of my success is dependent on SP itself. All I generally endorse when people ask me about WILDs (that doesn't seem to be mentioned in guides) is to have a consistent sleep schedule...IE if a person wakes up at 7AM during work/school, they need to do that every day including their days off so their sleep phases are close to textbook as possible for WBTBs. That and practice DILDs as a backup (roughly I have a 50/50 DILD/WILD ratio in over 300 lucids) In closing I think the "sp" stuff people normally bring up, is just a transitional phase (HI, HH bells and whistles) before the dream starts. However, some people are really experiencing ISP during that occurrence, and that needs to be addressed.