Visualization Difficulty.

Hi for the longest time I think the biggest problem with my lack of WILD success and general inability to transition correctly has to be due to visualization.

I just can't get it down!

When I try simple visualization techniques like imagining a room or hallway I get far too caught up in the details. The rest of the image soon falls apart as a result, I find it difficult to draw all the sensations I've made into one amalgamated final image.

So I decided forget it I won't do a VILD technique, it doesn't work for me and to each his own I guess. However my Visualization problem is deeper it seems. I've been attempting simple visualizations such as a ball or simple colors (for sivason's Dream Yoga class) but the problems pervade even the minimalistic areas of visualization.

Firstly I find it very difficult to focus solely on one visualized image, it seems to fluctuate every couple of seconds, then I snap out because I notice I haven't been concentrating. This compounds the problem as a I suddenly rush to build the image again which makes me alert. I was wondering can everyone else easily solidify an image in view and keep it there?

My hypnagogic imagery doesn't seem to do much aswell. It could probably be just to my bad sleep hygeine and the horrible insomnia I get from WBTB. Often though when I WBTB I can spend and hour in a completely relaxed state of mind, not reacting to any body sensations but fuck all happens! I'm not waiting or trying to focus on something to arrive but after an hour I just get inpatient. I've only seen hypnagogic before and that was a DEILD (but the awareness as it formed was very poor). Lastly one was where I turned over and woke up in SP which immediately had tons of geometric patterns, it's literally the first time I saw those buggers.

Secondly and probably the worst issue my eyes keep darting around. I can't keep my bloody eyes still. One sort of disappears into a another world and I have to bring my eyes back into focus. I don't know if this has anything to do with my eyesight (which is poor). One of my eyes is weaker then the other so I often notice in waking life that one darts off. It's so irritating because everytime this occurs I lose the visualization, it's a pain.

Lastly I've often wondered how people draw their visualizations over the hypnagogic imagery. I can do one of two things it seems. Either create the image instantaneously a "Flash Image" if you will. Or draw it over the black space like painting on a canvas. I often wonder which one people prefer to do. It's for this reason that I struggle with guides that say "visualize a white dot in the center of your forehead". I always try and paint it over the top of the black space, but should I be visualizing my forehead as though I was looking down on myself with a dot on it?

I rarely focus on one object but rather try to imagine a simple scene (i.e. ocean waves, a hike in a forest or a walk in the city) . It might also help to visualize something that you interacted with that very day as our big human brains like to resolve memories during sleep and dreams.

When I visualize for WILD I never try to make it real, instead I think of a song or passively visualize myself walking in my house, and when the experience starts to feel more real well then I know that I can "transition" (I am actually already transitioned). I usually visualize Muse songs that I am used to hear but in my own voice but when I suddenly hear Mats voice (the singer in Muse) and hear "WHEN DARKNESS FALL AND SURROOOOOOOUNDS YOU. WHEN YOU FALL DOWN WHEN YOU'RE SCARED AND YOU'RE LOST. BE BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVE" haha well then I know that I am in state and I can either continue to visualize or just get up because I am then in dreaming state and my sesnations and awareness is in a dreambed.

So in other words I use the realness of the visualization as a reality check.

It's not that strange really, you can visualize an alien and well if you see it, it's obvious that you are dreaming. :)
I hope this shed some light on how I feel and perform the transition of WILDing. :sleepmeditate2:

Thanks. But how do you make the visualizations. Do you paint it over the black space like it exists there or make one giant seperate image? Also what about my eyes darting around which halts the visualization. You guys didn't mention how easy/how long you focus on your object. I'd love to know, for me it keeps coming and going and it's infuriating.

Well when I DEILD I wake up lay still and have closed eyes for just a few seconds and if I don't start having auditory hallucinations or see any visuals, then I start by just singing a song in my head or visualize myself walking in my house. I'll try to give you good example to understand how I visualize. And this time we will do it with open eyes!

Look into a wall that only has one color, or a flat one colored surface of a table and now (don't analyze and think too much about how to do it, just do it! :) ) imagine yourself holding an apple in your hand, imagine feeling it with your hand and if you want take a bit of it. Now hold the apple in your hand and imagine yourself walking around in your house.

Your goal is not to try too see the visualization vividly with your physical eyes, your goal is to put your primarily focus on the visualization in your "mind's eye".

It's if your eyes starts darting around as long as you don't get distracted by it and lose concentration of your visualization, but if you do, just go back to the visualization again.

Don't try to see it as easy or hard, just as something that you do, you don't have to be able to visualize an image so it feels real, in fact for me that would even be a bad thing, since I use the real feeling as an indicator of a dream. If you try to visualize in just a few minutes on bedtime in order to transition to a dream you are doing something very advanced, inducing REM on your own I am not sure it works, I do know though that it is a very tough task.

If you want to WILD on bedtme what I usually do is to relax and meditate for 1 hour or I can just WBTB of course, and then I start the visualization because then I have atleast shortened the time needed in order for naturally go into REM and then I just use the visualization as a reality check.

So for me I use the visualization like this: (When it's plausible to think that one is close to REM) I just visualize something, if it suddenly feels very real I can suspect to be in REM and transition by continue to focus on the visualization.

Thank you very much for the in-depth walk through. I imagine basically is that I'm over thinking the whole process, it should be instinctual and I shouldn't be concerned about eyes darting or how I go about making the visualization. In this regard it would similar to not responding to Sleep Paralysis sensations, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'll give your exercise of focusing on a plain surface a go. Thanks.

I was just wondering how long are you able to personally concentrate on a single visualization can you hold it for 5 minutes straight for instance. For me it fades out every couple seconds and I have to build it back up. Also what do you recommend for simple visualization tasks like Sivason's, which I'm struggling with.

I'm using WBTB by the way. But it just infuriates me it never does anything. I can stay there for an hour and Sleep Paralysis won't occur (I realize that isn't the goal) but no change in the Hypnagogic Imagery occurs. This is after only staying up for 1 minute or so, even then I get insomnia more then anything. I've even got SP prior to WBTB, but so far hypnagogia only occurs in the odd DEILD and odd times when I've woke up in SP. Aside from that it's either wait for hours and get no sleep or don't wake up for more then 5 minutes in which case I just fall asleep instantly.

Should I attempt a long WBTB, the opposite end of the spectrum I mean. So far I've only tried minimizing my WBTB to 1-5 minutes. I was wondering maybe staying up for an hour could be effective because I would get drowsy and be forced to hit the sack. I know like most when I get drowsy after no sleep and nap/fall asleep at my desk I'm hit by a flurry of dreams so maybe the same will work for WBTB.

Good luck :)

Well I am more of a let the mind wander guy, so I let the visualization come to me and I do this by relaxing. After some time I start experiencing (not vividly) impresssion of an experience.
Like I see a woman and hear weird things like "The bus isn't going to be purple in the weekend" o. O and I just observe this as it already was a dream or information of my subconscious.
So I have never tried to concentrate on a self made visualization for very long, well I have as a beginner but at those times I just fell asleep unaware so I didn't got the time.. :P
I do however meditate for 40-60 min very often by concentrating on my breathing so I guess that can be seen as a concentration practise.

I haven't read about Sivsaion's simple visualization tasks so you have to describe them to me. ^^

The time of the WBTB is important because the longer you stay up the more deprived you get of REM, so the brain sort of force itself to REM.
This can also be achieved by not sleeping for 24 hours and then go to sleep, I wouldn't recommend it though, the WBTB is a healthier option.

What I am currently doing is to go to set an alarm to wake me up 1 hour later but not more than 2 hours, and make sure that I get atleast one hour of sleep.
Then I stay up for atleast one hour but still not more than two hours and actually study (Some research shows that sleeping after studying helps you remember better, so I take advantage of that here). Then I go to bed and start visualizing and the idea here is that as soon as I start relaxing my brain will perform a REM-Rebound and then I just do what I described before.

This is a new kind of WBTB variation for me, and I usually don't even WBTB so it takes some time and patience to get used to staying up when all you want to do is to sleep. xD
And yeah to study on top of that is a really good concentration exercise!

Last night I only stayed up for 30 minutes, but tonight I am going to stay up for the full hour because that is apparantly necessary in order to trigger the REM-Rebound.

More info about REM-Rebound can be found here: REM rebound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So yeah if you are interested you can read about my attempts in my Dream Journal and if it provides me regular success you might consider trying it out. ;)

Try re-positioning your awareness from behind the eye-lids to the back of the head. Let everything happen back there and watch it all unfold. :D

Thanks again MasterMind. I know about the REM Rebound effect, in fact I've been taking 5-HTP some nights to forcefully cause it to occur. Even on those nights while dreams increased in the latter period of the night the WBTB was ineffective at doing anything. 5-HTP increase Seratonin in the brain which suppresses REM sleep the first half of the night, meaning a more balanced, quality sleep and more REM towards the end of the night. I think I might drop down to 100mg because I think it's suppressing REM far too much. But I didn't actually take it recently otherwise I would've noted so in the OP.

I'll give staying up longer an attempt. I was just using Sageous WILD Guide and various other guides. There seems to be a big disparity when it comes to WBTB time, some oneironauts recommend you keep it as short as possible, others as long as possible. I remember the first time I attempted a long period and I simply felt perfectly fine and then got hit by an onslaught of sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation is never a good thing to use with REM Rebound, you'll dream but you won't have any awareness because you're too tired. But I imagine you know that much.

I've never gotten any kind of Hypnagogia though until right when the dream hits, maybe I'm just bad at letting my mind wander. But the visualizations have never come to me before. I'll read your journal, you seem to have a lot of experience and have been very helpful so far. Should be an interesting read.

As for Sivason's techniques they're just part of his Dream Yoga Intermediate class. The goal is to try and control your hypnagogic imagery, for instance you start by increasing one kind of color behind your eyes e.g red, green. You increase the color by mental will (no idea how you do that) or simply by imagining objects/scenes of similar color. Then you get progressively better till you can fill the whole visual field with just one color, and then you move onto forming basic geometric shapes. Making two diagonal lines can be interpreted as your forearm for instance and this instantly makes Visualization impossible to falter. Problem is I just can't seem to nail down focusing on one single scene/object long enough for the color to increase. It does so for a split second but then I've lost concentration.

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Originally Posted by velmwend

Try re-positioning your awareness from behind the eye-lids to the back of the head. Let everything happen back there and watch it all unfold. :D

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Your statement is similar to other ones that simply confound me :lol:

I just don't understand how you "re-position" your awareness, same with the whole "visualize a lotus flower on your neck" (one of the Tibetan WILD techniques) or "visualize a white dot on your forehead" (Tibetan Technique from EWOLD). I think I just overthink this stuff (as with almost everything) and simply get to worked up when performing the visualization.

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Originally Posted by Drax

Your statement is similar to other ones that simply confound me :lol:

I just don't understand how you "re-position" your awareness, same with the whole "visualize a lotus flower on your neck" (one of the Tibetan WILD techniques) or "visualize a white dot on your forehead" (Tibetan Technique from EWOLD). I think I just overthink this stuff (as with almost everything) and simply get to worked up when performing the visualization.

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If you're visualizing something, you don't *actually* see it, as if it's an elaborate hallucination before your eyelids. Right now, think about the front door to your house, especially its colour and the style of the door nob. There you go, you just visualized it. When I say 're-position' your awareness, just touch the back of your head with your index finger for 5 seconds. Take the finger away and feel the 'after-touch' on the back of your head. There you go, you just placed your awareness there. Now, re-position yourself to that spot when you're doing your practice. Might work, might not. Worth a shot! If you're getting stressy take a week's break and read a book! :)

Drax, when you visualize are you interacting with your visualizations? Staring at a wall or something is going to get boring after a few minutes. One of the mistakes I made first starting out was that when I visualized things, I was always stationary and not actively participating in the environment I was trying to visualize. Passively sitting in a chair watching a fire wasn't enough, I had to get my butt out of that chair and actually actively explore the room.

Don't just visualize a stone wall - in your head, run your hand along it. Feel how rough and cool it is. Tap your fingers on it and imagine the sound. Don't just imagine a chair, imagine a room around it - and walk around the room. Listen to the sounds of your footsteps on the wood floor - or maybe you're shuffling across carpet. Really get into it and fill in all of those things. Watch a fire in a fireplace, watch the little motes of red-hot ash lift off of the flames, feel the warmth on your face, smell the woodsmoke. Poke it with a stick, listen to the wood pop, watch how the fire reacts. This will all be faint, blurry, and unconvincing at first but it's important for you to imagine every aspect of it that you can.

You don't literally see visualizations, it's more like the concept of what something looks like in your head (like when you "see" things in a memory). My visualizations are always frustratingly blurry. I still work at them and try to fill in the blurry visuals with sounds, textures, and smells. They don't actually start to get clearer or more vivid, I just suddenly go lucid - BAM - and sometimes it's a bit of a shock. When I go lucid, the blurriness is completely gone. Everything is suddenly crystal clear, like an HD television. It still startles me so much sometimes that I immediately lose it and wake up.

It's easy to lose yourself in the environment you're exploring, so I built myself a "base". Whenever I find myself there, I know immediately without a shadow of a doubt that I'm dreaming.