Why doesn't WILD work when going to bed, but does work when napping?

I've read a few times that a common mistake is that people ought to try WILD when going to bed, while it's only/more useful when combining with WBTB. That being said, how come people are succeeding with inducing lucid dreams while staying awake when taking a nap? I suppose that REM cycles when napping don't differ from when being asleep in bed for 7-8 hours. When napping, you just wake up much faster.

Could someone please explain this to me, to me it seems like such a contradiction.

Thanks in advance!

I am by no means an expert but as far as i know:

When you go to sleep at night you will first go through a deep sleep phase and after this you will enter REM cycles every 90 minutes or so and during this deep sleep your brain activity drops dramatically.

When you nap in the middle of the day, you won't fall into deep sleep, but instead directly into REM thus making it easier to WILD.

Also, the WBTB technique is effective to help induce lucid dreams because as you wake up in the night, you will regain the awareness lost during deep sleep, thus giving you higher awareness when you go to sleep again since you won't go into deep sleep.

That is why it is used for WILD. To get past deep sleep.

That does explain it a bit, but I still don't understand why you skip the deep sleep when taking a nap. Does it have something to do with the amount of light shining through when taking a nap? Or is it because of the mindset you have when 'only' taking a nap?

Just a sudden curiosity, but could one manage to go directly to REM when leaving a light on when going for a full night sleep? Or fool your subconscious by pretending you're only going to take a nap?

Thanks for your reply!

I just think the body is wired to do it.

I don't think it has anything to do with light, i think it's more based on your "cycle".
I have had most of my lucids during naps, and something i have noticed is that if i nap around 3 or 4 i will wake up quite frequently.
But if i take a nap after 6 or 7 i will most likely sleep till the next day if i am not disturbed.
This could indicate a shift as to where the brain separates a nap from normal sleep, like an internal clock.
But i guess you could trick the brain, but that would involve you turning nocturnal. :P

Could you tell me more about your naps, and how you manage to get lucid dreams during naps? I only had 1 LD so far, but after realizing it was a dream I instantly had a 2 sec transition to being awake, so no time to even think about stabilizing.

Thank you for your replies. They've been very informative. I never really thought of our internal clock, but most likely you're right.

I'll tell you anything you want. I just need to get home from work. x'D I'll send you a message in 2-3 hours.

EDIT: You're welcome. ;)

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Originally Posted by Buhl

I'll tell you anything you want. I just need to get home from work. x'D I'll send you a message in 2-3 hours.

EDIT: You're welcome. ;)

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Thank you! Good luck and talk to you later.

It is because the brain skims past the deep sleep since it has already had prior sleep (as many have already said that, I just feel like participating because participation is fun ;))

Nice explanations there, buhl.

All of my WILDs and majority of my DEILDs happen during naps. I take morning naps, when I wake up at any time in the morning, stay up for 1-3 hours and then take a nap. Naps are great for all types of LDs.

Little more about that in this thread "REM sleep in naps". Dutchraptor's post #3.

Thank you for your reply and that other thread you shared. That completely answers my question. I feel a little bit dumb now, I've should've searched before I posted this thread!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buhl

I'll tell you anything you want. I just need to get home from work. x'D I'll send you a message in 2-3 hours.

EDIT: You're welcome. ;)

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Hey Buhl,

Thanks again for your help today. Would you still like to share your experience with your WILD technique? I'm curious what makes you have succesfull lucid dreams during naps. Thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by wouterjongeneel

Hey Buhl,

Thanks again for your help today. Would you still like to share your experience with your WILD technique? I'm curious what makes you have succesfull lucid dreams during naps. Thanks in advance!

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I didn't send you a message as promised, but i shall be excused! I was having a nap. xD

Well, to be honest, i don't WILD. I try to do it but i have never been successful.
I don't try to become lucid every day either, i have just found a technique that works for me and i use it to get lucid when i want to, then go sated for the next couple of weeks until i feel the need to do it again. For me, it have worked 7 out of 8 times so far.

What i do is:

When i get into work on days that i decide to become lucid i start by looking forward to the experience that i will have later and what i should do. It's nothing fancy like tricking yourself into believing that it should work. I have a firm belief that it will and if it somehow doesn't, i'll just do it again tommorow.

Throughout the day i do reality checks to boost my chances.
I only do this on days that i want to be lucid and i think it boosts your chances further that it isn't something you do everyday. It will lower your chances of spontaneous lucids however, so decide for yourself.

The intention behind the reality check is probably the most important part here. You shouldn't remember to do reality checks because you have to do it, but because you want to do it.
Imagine that your boss tells you to check the stock prices once every hour, you will remember to do it because it's your job, not because you want to. Then imagine visiting this site in your freetime when browsing the net, you will remember to do it because you want to. (it's the best example i can conjure). >_>

That's kinda how you should remember to reality check, if you remember to do it because it excites you, you're doing it right. But if you remember it because you told yourself to do it 4 times an hour, you're doing it wrong.

Then, when i come home, i simply try to WILD in any manner i have read should work, and if it fails, i simply go to sleep and find myself in a lucid at some point.

The opinions here are only my own though! Good luck if you want to try it.

Feel free to ask me questions in a message if something have gone unexplained, i wrote this in a rush! :P

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Originally Posted by Buhl

but i shall be excused! I was having a nap. xD

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Atta boy!

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Originally Posted by Buhl

I have a firm belief that it will and if it somehow doesn't, i'll just do it again tommorow.

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Great attitude!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buhl

The intention behind the reality check is probably the most important part here. You shouldn't remember to do reality checks because you have to do it, but because you want to do it.

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yup, yup, yup!

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Originally Posted by Buhl

Then, when i come home, i simply try to WILD in any manner i have read should work, and if it fails, i simply go to sleep and find myself in a lucid at some point.

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It does work![/QUOTE]

Buhl, (and anybody else), have you read WILD by Sagous? Maybe you could join his class, he would the best to tell you how to tweak your method to get that darn WILD. Or make a thread in WILD forum and I'll chime in, if you want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wouterjongeneel

Thank you for your reply and that other thread you shared. That completely answers my question. I feel a little bit dumb now, I've should've searched before I posted this thread!

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No need to feel dumb. You can always search, but that's why we are here, to answer questions. Happy dreams:alien:

Gives a great sense of accomplishment to have the great Gab evaluate my responses! :banana:
Here is your reward: Gab means yawn in Danish. :o

I did read most of what is in there, and i frequently scout it for information and to renew what i already know. It's truly a great WILD info compilation.

EDIT: I'll take a look at the class, thanks for recommending it.

It probably also has something to do with the lighting conditions and the pineal gland being suppressed in regards to melatonin production and release. Melatonin suppresses REM sleep. See, the presence or absence of light naturally controls whether or not the pineal gland secretes melatonin, so at night melatonin is secreted and during the day it isn't. Thus, if you sleep during the day, you are more likely to sleep very lightly and there will probably some sort of REM activity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buhl

I didn't send you a message as promised, but i shall be excused! I was having a nap. xD

Well, to be honest, i don't WILD. I try to do it but i have never been successful.
I don't try to become lucid every day either, i have just found a technique that works for me and i use it to get lucid when i want to, then go sated for the next couple of weeks until i feel the need to do it again. For me, it have worked 7 out of 8 times so far.

What i do is:

When i get into work on days that i decide to become lucid i start by looking forward to the experience that i will have later and what i should do. It's nothing fancy like tricking yourself into believing that it should work. I have a firm belief that it will and if it somehow doesn't, i'll just do it again tommorow.

Throughout the day i do reality checks to boost my chances.
I only do this on days that i want to be lucid and i think it boosts your chances further that it isn't something you do everyday. It will lower your chances of spontaneous lucids however, so decide for yourself.

The intention behind the reality check is probably the most important part here. You shouldn't remember to do reality checks because you have to do it, but because you want to do it.
Imagine that your boss tells you to check the stock prices once every hour, you will remember to do it because it's your job, not because you want to. Then imagine visiting this site in your freetime when browsing the net, you will remember to do it because you want to. (it's the best example i can conjure). >_>

That's kinda how you should remember to reality check, if you remember to do it because it excites you, you're doing it right. But if you remember it because you told yourself to do it 4 times an hour, you're doing it wrong.

Then, when i come home, i simply try to WILD in any manner i have read should work, and if it fails, i simply go to sleep and find myself in a lucid at some point.

The opinions here are only my own though! Good luck if you want to try it.

Feel free to ask me questions in a message if something have gone unexplained, i wrote this in a rush! :P

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Wow, thanks for your explaination. It seems you've got a fine method there, making lucid dreaming somekind of event to look forward to and spend that particular day with a full focus on what's about to happen in your dreams.
I understand the whole thing about reality checks. It's not about the motion, it's about WHY you're performing a RC. Truly question yourself if you're awake or if it might be a dream you're experiencing.

Your post didn't feel like it was written in a rush. Again, thanks for replying and helping me out here.

No problem!

Feel free to message me if you need anything.

Hey Buhl,

I want to thank you once again for your help about WILDing while napping. Today I managed to get my first lucid dream while napping for the first time since I posted this.
If you like, you can read my dream journal entry here.

So, THANK YOU, and see you around :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buhl

I didn't send you a message as promised, but i shall be excused! I was having a nap. xD

Well, to be honest, i don't WILD. I try to do it but i have never been successful.
I don't try to become lucid every day either, i have just found a technique that works for me and i use it to get lucid when i want to, then go sated for the next couple of weeks until i feel the need to do it again. For me, it have worked 7 out of 8 times so far.

What i do is:

When i get into work on days that i decide to become lucid i start by looking forward to the experience that i will have later and what i should do. It's nothing fancy like tricking yourself into believing that it should work. I have a firm belief that it will and if it somehow doesn't, i'll just do it again tommorow.

Throughout the day i do reality checks to boost my chances.
I only do this on days that i want to be lucid and i think it boosts your chances further that it isn't something you do everyday. It will lower your chances of spontaneous lucids however, so decide for yourself.

The intention behind the reality check is probably the most important part here. You shouldn't remember to do reality checks because you have to do it, but because you want to do it.
Imagine that your boss tells you to check the stock prices once every hour, you will remember to do it because it's your job, not because you want to. Then imagine visiting this site in your freetime when browsing the net, you will remember to do it because you want to. (it's the best example i can conjure). >_>

That's kinda how you should remember to reality check, if you remember to do it because it excites you, you're doing it right. But if you remember it because you told yourself to do it 4 times an hour, you're doing it wrong.

Then, when i come home, i simply try to WILD in any manner i have read should work, and if it fails, i simply go to sleep and find myself in a lucid at some point.

The opinions here are only my own though! Good luck if you want to try it.

Feel free to ask me questions in a message if something have gone unexplained, i wrote this in a rush! :P

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This was actually really helpful for me, thanks for sharing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wouterjongeneel

Hey Buhl,

I want to thank you once again for your help about WILDing while napping. Today I managed to get my first lucid dream while napping for the first time since I posted this.
If you like, you can read my dream journal entry here.

So, THANK YOU, and see you around :)

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Congratz! I will read it first thing when i get home!

I also experienced my first WILD since we last talked and i believe this thread helped me achieve it, so thank YOU. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buhl

Congratz! I will read it first thing when i get home!

I also experienced my first WILD since we last talked and i believe this thread helped me achieve it, so thank YOU. :)

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Congrats to you too! I'm glad this thread helped you. Thank you for the friend invite by the way :) Cya around

As someone who experimented with polyphasic sleep for about a month, I actually don't think it's totally necessary to use naps or WBTB for WILDs. It will definitely help, but my one and only WILD was actually done when going to bed normally for the night. That's probably because I trained my body to enter into REM sleep immediately upon falling asleep, and anyone could do that. Of course, I'm not as good at that as I was when I was sleeping polyphasically, but it still helps a lot, I think.

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Originally Posted by funymunky

... I actually don't think it's totally necessary to use naps or WBTB for WILDs. It will definitely help, but my one and only WILD was actually done when going to bed normally for the night.

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If I should hazard a guess, that will be more of an exception, than rule.

I also had my only WILD after going to bed normally. However, i didn't get more than 4 hours of sleep a night for an entire week leading up to it. So i am guessing it was possible because of some kind of REM rebound.

I believe it is possible that you could do it on a regular basis, but i also believe it will take lots of effort and even then it won't yield as many LDs as doing it with WBTB.

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That's probably because I trained my body to enter into REM sleep immediately upon falling asleep, and anyone could do that. Of course, I'm not as good at that as I was when I was sleeping polyphasically, but it still helps a lot, I think.

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You've trained yourself to hit REM in the beginning of the night? I'm assuming you're talking about polyphasic sleep right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by funymunky

As someone who experimented with polyphasic sleep for about a month, I actually don't think it's totally necessary to use naps or WBTB for WILDs. It will definitely help, but my one and only WILD was actually done when going to bed normally for the night. That's probably because I trained my body to enter into REM sleep immediately upon falling asleep, and anyone could do that. Of course, I'm not as good at that as I was when I was sleeping polyphasically, but it still helps a lot, I think.

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Did you experiment with polyphasic sleep specifically for lucid dreaming? Besides being able to WILD once, were you able to lucid dream more often during this month?
WILD is most effective when done right before or during a REM phase, so whether you use WBTB, napping or an adjusted sleep schedule like polyphasic sleep, you still need your REM phase. I've got a traditional sleeping schedule so WILD when going to bed at night doesn't work for me, unless I could keep my mind awake for probably over 90 minutes..