Trouble falling back asleep with SSILD/WBTB + WILD question

I've recently started practising SSILD and with great success. However, more than 50% of the time I can't fall back asleep after waking up from my alarm/mantra.
I have this issue with any sort of WBTB techniques and I don't stay up for too long, because all I do is go to the toilet downstairs and go back to bed, then do the SSILD cycles.
I think it might have something to do with which part of the sleep cycle I wake up from. I think that I fall asleep easier when I am feeling groggy. Any tips?
Could I maybe combine a breathing technique (e.g. 4-7-8?) with SSILD? And/or maybe listen to white noise or something? Or would this interrupt with SSILD?

Also another question: when I have trouble falling back asleep after a WBTB and nothing seems to help, could I in theory just stay completely motionless and let my body go to sleep (even though my mind is still awake)?
Could I use WILD as a cure for insomnia like this, I mean?

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Originally Posted by MemeViews

I can't fall back asleep after waking up from my alarm/mantra.

I have this issue with any sort of WBTB techniques and I don't stay up for too long, because all I do is go to the toilet downstairs and go back to bed, then do the SSILD cycles.

I think that I fall asleep easier when I am feeling groggy. Any tips?

Could I maybe combine a breathing technique (e.g. 4-7-8?) with SSILD? And/or maybe listen to white noise or something? Or would this interrupt with SSILD?

Also another question: when I have trouble falling back asleep after a WBTB and nothing seems to help, could I in theory just stay completely motionless and let my body go to sleep (even though my mind is still awake)?

Could I use WILD as a cure for insomnia like this, I mean?

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You could try not using an alarm at all, and only focus on natural/mantra awakenings. The sudden noise can startle you enough to make it harder for you to fall back asleep.

You could try not to drink that much before the night, so you could stay in bed not needing to get up and possible waking you up more.

Try WBTB after only 4-5 hours of sleep, thats when the first longer REM-period ccurs. You won't have slept that much before it so you could be more groggier :).

Whatever makes you comfortable and what soothes your mind ~ white noise, breathing techniques etc . The more comfortable you feel both physically and mentally the quicker you'll fall asleep. Remember to just enjoy and soak the feeling of relaxation in, don't try to fall asleep. I don't think extra activities like that will interfere with SSILD.

Yes. You could have a WILD or a DEILD like that as well. :) If you would have just exited a dream and you wanted to go after a DEILD, then don't budge. Otherwise it's okay to get into a more comfortable position.

I dont know if you have insomnia just because you can't fall back asleep after WBTBs. If you do have some degree of insomnia, then I don't think that WILD is really a cure, but the insomnia could be a booster for WILD. Another new member on the site has insomnia and she told, that she has like at least one WILD per night because of her condition. ( She enters REM almost instantly ( ? )).

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You could try not using an alarm at all, and only focus on natural/mantra awakenings. The sudden noise can startle you enough to make it harder for you to fall back asleep.

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I think it's the opposite actually. When you naturally wake up from mantras, don't you always wake up at the end of a sleep cycle, which makes you feel more refreshed? And if I use an alarm and no mantras, isn't there a bigger chance I would wake up in the middle of a sleep cycle (deep sleep), thus feeling more groggy?

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Try WBTB after only 4-5 hours of sleep, thats when the first longer REM-period ccurs. You won't have slept that much before it so you could be more groggier .

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I have found myself failing to get back to sleep after just 3 hours of sleep and other times where I could easily fall asleep after already having had over 6 hours of sleep. I don't think that's much of a factor here.

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I don't think extra activities like that will interfere with SSILD.

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I asked because this was mentioned in the SSILD FAQ:

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Q: Can I combine other breathing, meditation, relaxation techniques during or prior to doing SSILD?

A: No. As mentioned earlier, SSILD is all about "conditioning". You condition your mind and body to the most optimal state for lucid dream to occur. This state, however, is very delicate. Mixing in other techniques will likely interfere with this state and cause negative impact on SSLID's performance. You're free to create your own routines once you master the technique, but for beginners I expect you to adhere to the instructions in this manual.

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Wait, let my try to rephrase what I meant with insomnia and WILD:
If I find myself in a situation where I can't sleep because my mind is racing or whatever, can't I try to remain motionless, so that my body will fall asleep first? I mean, that way I could let my body enter sleep despite having a somewhat unrelaxed state of mind. This way I could fall asleep faster in times where I find it hard to ease my mind and have the benefit of a lucid dream, no?

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Originally Posted by MemeViews

I think it's the opposite actually. When you naturally wake up from mantras, don't you always wake up at the end of a sleep cycle, which makes you feel more refreshed? And if I use an alarm and no mantras, isn't there a bigger chance I would wake up in the middle of a sleep cycle (deep sleep), thus feeling more groggy?

I asked because this was mentioned in the SSILD FAQ:

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Q: Can I combine other breathing, meditation, relaxation techniques during or prior to doing SSILD?

A: No. As mentioned earlier, SSILD is all about "conditioning". You condition your mind and body to the most optimal state for lucid dream to occur. This state, however, is very delicate. Mixing in other techniques will likely interfere with this state and cause negative impact on SSLID's performance. You're free to create your own routines once you master the technique, but for beginners I expect you to adhere to the instructions in this manual.

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Wait, let my try to rephrase what I meant with insomnia and WILD:
If I find myself in a situation where I can't sleep because my mind is racing or whatever, can't I try to remain motionless, so that my body will fall asleep first? I mean, that way I could let my body enter sleep despite having a somewhat unrelaxed state of mind. This way I could fall asleep faster in times where I find it hard to ease my mind and have the benefit of a lucid dream, no?

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It might be more unnatural for humans to wake up during deep sleep, especially due to an intentionally set alarm, making it instead harder to fall back asleep. I think it's the REM-periods and brief-awakening moments in that we usually wake up( natural = easier to fall back asleep ). You could wake up during deep sleep due to the urge to pee for an example though ( ? Need confirmation by members who have more knowledge about sleeping and dreaming in general). But then again if you feel too refreshed after a REM-cycle ( end of sleep cycle ) and find it harder to fall back asleep, I would suggest an alarm awakening near the next REM-period. Then atleast you will know there's a dream nearby awaiting for you in which to become lucid.

From SSILD guide:

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Remember you are not doing a WILD. You are simply setting things up for OBEs and LDs to occur at later point.

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My bad, I always thought SSILD was similar to FILD where you maintain your awareness by focusing into something ( would be senses in this case) = WILDing in a sense. But since the idea is to get comfortable to fall asleep in the first place, I think it's okay to do breathing techniques simultaneously if they work for you. If you manage to split your attention to both your breathing and into your senses, then go for both. :) The breathing technique might become more automatic with practice as well so you'll be able to focus more on the senses alone = "SSILDing how it is supposed to be done" apparently.

Well, since LDing is all mental ( at least once you get there ) and if you manage to fall asleep with an active mind, then I guess it could be possible. The lucids you would be having would probably be WILDs, since you would let your body fall asleep while your consciousness was still very active. If you can fall asleep with an active mind, then I guess yes. ( Waiting for more knowledgeable members to post their thoughts on if it is possible ( for an insomniac ) to fall asleep with an active mind. :) )

I think a strong meditative state is optimal for inducing WILDs.

Depending on ones ability only 10-20 minutes of Zhine, Zazen, Samatha, or so on should be sufficient, it is not advisable in my opinion to meditate as long as you possibly can because ones mental pliancy and concentration tends to peak somewhere in the middle of a average session. It is best to lay down and start the WILD process while the meditative state is present and one has enough energy left to properly focus on whichever WILD method one is using. I think the ideal amount of time for meditation before a WILD attempt would be approximately half that of a normal session.

While practising Zazen I have noticed that if I keep concentration on the breath steady while accidentally allowing peripheral awareness to waver I will enter a trance like state and fall asleep while sitting up very quickly, this is not ideal for meditation of course, this trance state could be taken advantage of, under the right situation it could be adventitious for helping one fall sleep quickly, but the loss of awareness would make focusing on a WILD method difficult. That being said I still believe that the mixture of relaxation, concentration, and awareness associated with a proper meditative state is the best foundation for any WILD method, since a balance of calmness and awareness, of 'stopping and seeing', is best for a WILD attempt, but ones exact ratio of calmness and mindfulness can be intentionally altered by the amount of focus applied to the meditative object or peripheral awareness. If going to sleep is still a problem in the regular meditative state, one could ignore mindfulness for a time and put a overwhelming majority of ones focus on the meditative object alone, this could be done lets say 5 minutes before one intends to end the session, so that the heaviness of trance is present but not too predominant, which would lead to simple unconsciousness.

Also, I have found the Amino Acid L-Theanine effective for calming the mind without causing any detrimental loss of concentration, this may help.