Can't find the right balance

I've been able to LD for over 10 years now but all that I have ever been able to pull off are DILDs. I've been LDing for a while now and I've mastered almost everything but there is one thing left I want to master, that's WILDs.

Whenever I try to WILD, I succeed at the early steps every time. I am able to relax my whole body and after 10 minutes, have it shut down as it would if I were asleep but I am fully conscious and am unable to dream.

I always end up at one of two endings.
A. I am able to relax completely as if I were asleep but retain full consciousness but can't fall asleep or
B. I just fall asleep and lose all consciousness.

I was wondering what could I do to practise falling asleep without losing all consciousness, but not be too conscious that I can't fall asleep.

A bit of extra info:
I only attempt to WILD during naps or at around 4:00 AM,
I don't keep a dream journal as I can remember my dreams over the last two weeks no problem and about a third of the ones over the last 3 months.


Any help or exercises to get me past this roadblock would be greatly appreciated.

-Him

Hi,

you don't mention if you do any RCs when in that state. If you have already tried what I suggest below, then just disregard.

when you say you can't fall asleep, how do you know you are not asleep? Have you tried any motionless RCs? Like trying to float up, move your arm, stand up, roll out of your bed? All just by power of your mind.

More than half the time when I WILD, I have some sensation that lets me know I am transitioning or already dreaming.

Visual - still images like photographs, cartoon drawings, moving pictures even videos...
Tactile - sensation of movement - either falling or floating up, or flying head first at breakneck speed...
Auditory - hearing sounds like a very strong wind, thunder, people talking, loud machinery...

When I stopped having these, I was a bit lost, not knowing how to enter a lucid dream without these markers. Then I realized that when I "see" my room, my eyes are closed. Or when I see anything else, also, my eyes closed, I must be dreaming.

I started doing my motionless RCs earlier and earlier, untill I realized I don't even have to do that. I can just stand up and be in a dream fairly soon after I start WILDing, before any indication of being asleep.

I read somewhere, that when they wake up people from light sleep, they swear they were still awake. This is non-lucid dreamers. So I guess it's really easy to think we are still awake when in fact we are already asleep.

tl;dr
Try motionless RCs when you think your body is asleep, or just try to stand up/roll out of your body with power of your mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gab

Hi,

you don't mention if you do any RCs when in that state. If you have already tried what I suggest below, then just disregard.

when you say you can't fall asleep, how do you know you are not asleep? Have you tried any motionless RCs? Like trying to float up, move your arm, stand up, roll out of your bed? All just by power of your mind.

More than half the time when I WILD, I have some sensation that lets me know I am transitioning or already dreaming.

Visual - still images like photographs, cartoon drawings, moving pictures even videos...
Tactile - sensation of movement - either falling or floating up, or flying head first at breakneck speed...
Auditory - hearing sounds like a very strong wind, thunder, people talking, loud machinery...

When I stopped having these, I was a bit lost, not knowing how to enter a lucid dream without these markers. Then I realized that when I "see" my room, my eyes are closed. Or when I see anything else, also, my eyes closed, I must be dreaming.

I started doing my motionless RCs earlier and earlier, untill I realized I don't even have to do that. I can just stand up and be in a dream fairly soon after I start WILDing, before any indication of being asleep.

I read somewhere, that when they wake up people from light sleep, they swear they were still awake. This is non-lucid dreamers. So I guess it's really easy to think we are still awake when in fact we are already asleep.

tl;dr
Try motionless RCs when you think your body is asleep, or just try to stand up/roll out of your body with power of your mind.

---

I've tried motionless RC but every time, I come back as not asleep. I found that when I try to even imagine anything after all of the noise (body shutting down/ entering RA) nothing seems real. I also have full consciousness after I try to sleep. My heart rate also increases significantly after I enter RA and still retain all conciousness and I feel like I can't even come close to falling asleep.

How should I try to fall asleep or even calm down without losing all conciousness?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Him

How should I try to fall asleep or even calm down without losing all conciousness?

---

Same way as you fall asleep when you going for a normal sleep. From what you say, you try at 4 am, so you should be still reasonably sleepy. For how long do you stay up? Do you make effort not to wake yourself up too much?

At the nap time - do you normally take naps? So you know you are able to take naps? How long after you woke up from your night time sleep?

Basically, you let your body fall asleep while you keep your mind awake (you keep your awareness). You keep your mind awake by mantras. Phrases you repeat to entertain your brain so it doesn't fall asleep too soon. If you time it right, you will fall asleep at the same time when a dream is formed and you can let go, fall asleep and keep your awareness while in a dream. If you fall asleep too soo, you will fall into normal, sleepless sleep. If too late, your dream is already there, you can see it, but you are too awake to let go and fall asleep. If you can, you can stay in this state until you are able to fall asleep. But this could be hard as it's hard to keep your awareness in this state too long. It will take some trial and error for sure, but I take all attempts as success, since they all teach us something.

If you have not seen this, please check out this excellent wild tutorial WILD

What is RA?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gab

I read somewhere, that when they wake up people from light sleep, they swear they were still awake. This is non-lucid dreamers. So I guess it's really easy to think we are still awake when in fact we are already asleep.

---

This happens all the time with me and my wife waking each other up to stop the other party snoring: "I wasn't snoring! I was awake!" Only I think with, as you note, the sensitivity of a dreamer can you really notice both: I've started to be able to notice when I'm snoring while asleep. Either that or it's so loud that the noise just wakes me up :).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gab

Same way as you fall asleep when you going for a normal sleep. From what you say, you try at 4 am, so you should be still reasonably sleepy. For how long do you stay up? Do you make effort not to wake yourself up too much?

At the nap time - do you normally take naps? So you know you are able to take naps? How long after you woke up from your night time sleep?

Basically, you let your body fall asleep while you keep your mind awake (you keep your awareness). You keep your mind awake by mantras. Phrases you repeat to entertain your brain so it doesn't fall asleep too soon. If you time it right, you will fall asleep at the same time when a dream is formed and you can let go, fall asleep and keep your awareness while in a dream. If you fall asleep too soo, you will fall into normal, sleepless sleep. If too late, your dream is already there, you can see it, but you are too awake to let go and fall asleep. If you can, you can stay in this state until you are able to fall asleep. But this could be hard as it's hard to keep your awareness in this state too long. It will take some trial and error for sure, but I take all attempts as success, since they all teach us something.

If you have not seen this, please check out this excellent wild tutorial WILD

What is RA?

---

I don't wake myself up with an alarm, I just naturally wake myself up. WBTB isn't a problem but when I can't use that, I usually listen to 2 songs, length of time I'm awake totals to 8m 30s before I try to wild. I'm just wondering how I can stay calm enough to fall asleep. Keeping consciousness isn't normally a problem, just if I get board and give up (been over 15 minutes laying there with no results after RC. I even get up after 15 minutes of nothing and preform standard RC. At that point, I would give up and sleep. I need to calm my mind so I can enter a dream.