Help me with WILD please. What am I doing wrong?

Hi guys

I've been trying WILD lately at least 5 times a week, but no success yet. I am facing these problems and would appreciate any advice or hint.


This is how I typically do it:

1. I basically lie on my back, move my limbs a little until I find a comfortable position and start counting with every breath I take.
2. I do reverse blinking with every 2nd number until I reach 20. Then with every 5th number until I reach 50. After that, I can barely open my eyes anymore.
3. Around 70 I can feel my body relaxing and kind of entering something like a mini-SP. That means that I can still move if I want to, but it just feels more difficult and my limbs aren't as responsive.
4. Around 150 some thoughts start to take form. Sometimes I almost lose myself in them.
5. Around 220 I usually lose my consciousness for a while or drift away in thoughts. When I regain some gleam of consciousness, I start again from 200.

Now here are my problems:

1. In early evenings or late afternoons I basically reach HI at some point, but I get stuck in it and can't go past it. The HI lasts so long (1-2 h) that I kind of lose consciousness in the process, but I don't really fall asleep. I kind of get stuck in the HI until I regain some kind of consciousness and give up. Usually I can't fall asleep on my back, and I think this is the reason?
2. If I roll over, I usually fall asleep and fail.
3. In the early mornings after 6 hours of sleep I wake up (WBTB) and am awake for 20-30 minutes. When I go to bed again, I fall asleep in no time and can't really maintain consciousness for 2 minutes.

This is the farthest I got:

• Once I had the feeling that I could see my room through my closed eyes. I didn't feel my physical body at all anymore. The view was very dark and kind of faded. I tried to stand up because I thought this was the dream, but sadly it wasn't (did RC of course).
• Sometimes, I reach a point when I can only feel the breathing and nothing else at all of my physical body. But the breathing itself takes so much concentration that I can't let go of it. It feels like I basically can breath in manual mode only, and do not remember how to let it happen automatically.
• Sometimes, I get twitchy eyes and I see some kind of a white light with my closed eyes (after some vibrations that make me feel like I am floating or in a water bed), which gets brighter with every second, but then my heart starts beating really fast (I don't know if this is due to excitement or only a hallucination), and that kind of throws me back.

What am I missing? How far do I get? Am I doing something wrong?

Hi Skyzor.

After reading your post I had but one thought: I really hate the internet sometimes.

It seems, from here, that you have picked up on all the notions that are so popular on the net (SP,HI, weird body sensations, techniques like counting and reverse blinking), but weren't able to get good information on what really matters in WILD.

WILD really isn't about all that stuff; it's about staying self-aware while your body falls asleep and enters a dream; period. Honestly, reading all the stuff you were doing and paying attention to, I am not at all surprised that you had trouble falling asleep!

Getting to sleep is vital to WILD. It might sound obvious, but if you're not sleeping you're not dreaming, so it is important not to do things that keep you awake, like counting and reverse-blinking so methodically (just keeping track of when to blink would keep me awake for the night, much less blinking so often and at specific counts). Ironically, I would pay a lot of money to be able to go to sleep immediately after a WBTB; you might consider that an asset, and not a problem. Also, the reason it is recommended to do WILD lying on your back is because it can be more difficult to go to sleep on your back; that way you have a bit more time on the fence between wake and sleep to gather your lucid mindset.

So from what you wrote, I would guess that your problem might lie in your mindset, and perhaps in overdoing the techniques while paying way too much attention to the noise that can accompany a WILD transition (but doesn't have to). If you haven't already, I highly recommend that you take a look at DV's WILD tutorial, and maybe even take my DVA WILD class; given the head start your ability to fall quickly asleep after WBTB affords you, I think you might find the information in both these places helpful.

Also, a couple of small things:

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Originally Posted by SKYZ0R

I've been trying WILD lately at least 5 times a week, but no success yet.

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That might be a bit too often; I would suggest trying once or twice a week, and spend more time preparing/anticipating a single WILD attempt.

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Once I had the feeling that I could see my room through my closed eyes. I didn't feel my physical body at all anymore. The view was very dark and kind of faded. I tried to stand up because I thought this was the dream, but sadly it wasn't (did RC of course).

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If you are "seeing" your room but know your eyes are closed, then you probably are asleep, or nearly asleep; You're seeing your room because your dreaming mind hasn't had a chance yet to present an actual dream, so, in an effort to provide some sort of dream content, it throws up the easiest image it can find, like your most recent waking-life memory (that being your room). Instead of doing a RC at that point, it might be better to just relax, tell yourself you're almost there, and wait for a proper dream to form: since your body is so close to being awake, the action of doing a RC -- or sitting up, for that matter -- might be enough to wake your body right back up again.


tldr: I think your main problem here is that you're paying attention to the wrong things, are not letting your mind get in the right place for sleep and lucidity, and are not relaxing. WILD is all about relaxing and falling asleep while maintaining waking-life self-awareness; no more, no less. I highly recommend that you try the DV WILD tutorial, or my DVA WILD class, and maybe attach less importance to the stuff you read on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Also, a couple of small things:

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I've been trying WILD lately at least 5 times a week, but no success yet.

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That might be a bit too often; I would suggest trying once or twice a week, and spend more time preparing/anticipating a single WILD attempt.

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What about me then, I'm trying 4 times per night:whistle:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

tldr: I think your main problem here is that you're paying attention to the wrong things, are not letting your mind get in the right place for sleep and lucidity, and are not relaxing. WILD is all about relaxing and falling asleep while maintaining waking-life self-awareness; no more, no less. I highly recommend that you try the DV WILD tutorial, or my DVA WILD class, and maybe attach less importance to the stuff you read on the internet.

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I think you are taking Skyzors stated interest in WILDing too literally here. What was described was essentially a textbook approach to initiating an astral projection, or an OBE, from the waking state. And indeed a description of very nearly achieving it (seeing through closed eyes, vibrations, manically beating heart).

What I would suggest is deciding from the outset whether to go for a wake-initiated lucid dream, or a wake-initiated AP/OBE. Given Skyzors unusual ability to have prolonged HI, I think WILDing is the obvious choice, along with heeding your advice on this.

By the way, I should add for clarity that I have come to believe that WILD and AP are related but distinct conditions, with AP characterized by peripheral awareness, and WILD characterized by the lack of this (this is not a tenaciously held belief, but it is how I see it at present).

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

I think you are taking Skyzors stated interest in WILDing too literally here. What was described was essentially a textbook approach to initiating an astral projection, or an OBE, from the waking state. And indeed a description of very nearly achieving it (seeing through closed eyes, vibrations, manically beating heart

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And what is your own explanation of the differences between OBE and AP and WILD?

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Originally Posted by StarSeeker

And what is your own explanation of the differences between OBE and AP and WILD?

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OBE would be an experience of being in the physical world without the customary physical body. AP would be an experience of being in another physical world, again without the customary physical body. WILD would be an experience of witnessing another world without actually being truly inside it and not having peripheral awareness.

I appreciate that words (names) can be misleading (and generate confusion even between people who experience the exact same thing) whenever describing anything that is not clearly of the physical world. Unfortunately, words are all we have.

EDIT: Actually, words are not all we have. I guess we could draw things, or act them out.

And if you have non-physical body, but still a body in OBE, what is the mean of that? And what about RV, are you just extending your non-physical vision or you send your consciousness somewhere?

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Originally Posted by StarSeeker

And if you have non-physical body, but still a body in OBE, what is the mean of that?

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I am not sure what you mean by that. But at any rate I assume any body present in such an experience will be manufactured by imagination.

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Originally Posted by StarSeeker

And what about RV, are you just extending your non-physical vision or you send your consciousness somewhere?

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I would state it this way: all these different types of experiences are essentially consequences of directing consciousness in different ways. I don't really believe that consciousness "leaves the body" under any circumstances; I don't think consciousness moves at all, but it can attend to different things.

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

I am not sure what you mean by that. But at any rate I assume any body present in such an experience will be manufactured by imagination.

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Or I can Recreate a non-physical body for myself for better interaction with the physical world. There even was a special term for that which I can't recall right now. In short: The power of Mind.

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I don't really believe that consciousness "leaves the body" under any circumstances; I don't think consciousness moves at all, but it can attend to different things.

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But but you are contradicting yourself:

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OBE would be an experience of being in the physical world without the customary physical body.

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I think even if your physical body die, your consciousness will move on.

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Originally Posted by StarSeeker

But but you are contradicting yourself:

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No what I mean is that a person in an OBE would have the experience of being in the physical world, as in: perceiving an enviroment entirely like the physical world. Personally, I don't think that the world experienced in an OBE is the same as the physical world; it just looks the same.

I believe consciousness is stationary, and I don't believe it is housed in a body. But it may imagine being housed in one.

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

No what I mean is that a person in an OBE would have the experience of being in the physical world, as in: perceiving an enviroment entirely like the physical world. Personally, I don't think that the world experienced in an OBE is the same as the physical world; it just looks the same.

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So OBE = WILD!

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I believe consciousness is stationary, and I don't believe it is housed in a body. But it may imagine being housed in one.

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Another contradiction of yourself:

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. I don't really believe that consciousness "leaves the body" under any circumstances;

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To OP,
Your best bet is to look at Sageous tutorials.

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Originally Posted by StarSeeker

So OBE = WILD!

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No, I see WILD as a kind of peek into another world, whereas OBE is an all-immersive experience of the regular physical world (as in: something that looks entirely like the physical world).

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Originally Posted by StarSeeker

Another contradiction of yourself:

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There is no contradiction: since I do not see consciousness as housed in a body, it follows that it cannot leave a body.

Obes, APs, and WILDs have different meanings but its all the same in the end. They are all Wake induced Lucid Dreams. You can have an OBE and then go to a fantasy land. You can be in a fantasy land and transport yourself to the real world. Same goes for APs

Thank you all a lot for taking the time to help me. I highly appreciate it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

tldr: I think your main problem here is that you're paying attention to the wrong things, are not letting your mind get in the right place for sleep and lucidity, and are not relaxing. WILD is all about relaxing and falling asleep while maintaining waking-life self-awareness; no more, no less. I highly recommend that you try the DV WILD tutorial, or my DVA WILD class, and maybe attach less importance to the stuff you read on the internet.

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Hi Sageous, thank you very much for your advice.
I read your post multiple times yesterday and wanted to let it all sink in.
Most importantly, I think that you are right. If I could forget everything I've ever read about WILD, I'd instantly do it and start from scratch, just to change my mindset.
I did read the tutorial here some weeks ago and I also went through all your classes, and DV definitely approaches WILD very differently from what I've read in other places.

I will focus on trying WILD in early mornings after WBTB according to the DV tutorials and your teachings, then at least I am sure that I can fall asleep very quickly.
The only challenge that I'll be facing is not losing consciousness in the process, and I'm not sure yet how I'll achieve that, but I will keep trying until I succeed.
Mainly I'll be adjusting the WBTB durations and the times when I try it. Also, I'll try out various anchors (mantra instead of counting, visualization, etc.)
Perhaps I might give it a break for one week or two first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

I think you are taking Skyzors stated interest in WILDing too literally here. What was described was essentially a textbook approach to initiating an astral projection, or an OBE, from the waking state. And indeed a description of very nearly achieving it (seeing through closed eyes, vibrations, manically beating heart).

What I would suggest is deciding from the outset whether to go for a wake-initiated lucid dream, or a wake-initiated AP/OBE. Given Skyzors unusual ability to have prolonged HI, I think WILDing is the obvious choice, along with heeding your advice on this.

By the way, I should add for clarity that I have come to believe that WILD and AP are related but distinct conditions, with AP characterized by peripheral awareness, and WILD characterized by the lack of this (this is not a tenaciously held belief, but it is how I see it at present).

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Hi Voldmer, thank you for your advice. I personally believe that OBEs and APs are just another form of dreams, but still dreams nonetheless. This might change though if I ever experience one.
Assumed that I succeeded with my approach and ended up having an OBE, I would still call that a successful WILD.

Hi again guys, sorry for the double post and for the following wall of text. I'll update on my progress and would be grateful for any advice again.
I've been reading and thinking a lot about WILD these days and I think I now understand more about it, without actually actively practicing it.
What I came to realize is that, no matter how many tutorials one reads, in the end it all comes down to the individual's own path.

That is because there seems to be a split in all LD forums that I regularly visit regarding the WILD technique. Basically, it all comes down to two (different) variants of the WILD technique:

• Variant 1: Active. With active I mean that one will lie down and actively try to induce a LD by basically waiting for the LD to form, while staying consciously aware, almost awake.
  During this, one might have to go through all the noise that can (but must not) accompany this process. This is what I've been practicing when I created this thread (OP).
• Variant 2: Passive. The idea behind this is that falling asleep is the main goal (with the intend to really fall asleep). WILD is more or less only in the back of one's mind. The trick here is that one has to take some conscious awareness to the dream world with the help of anchors, kind of like planting a seed of awareness in one's mind.

For me, variant 2 was really difficult to understand at first, it didn't make any sense at all. My main question was, how can one fall asleep while actually staying consciously aware at the same time?
But now I think that I understand it, because I remember some occassions from the past where I actually fell asleep while taking a small glimpse of awareness with me.

Once, my girlfriend woke me up in the morning on a Sunday after ~8 hours of sleep because I was snoring. I woke up on my back and did not move much, and I was convinced that I was still awake until after some time she "woke me up" again because I was snoring again. I did not even hear my snoring this time at all (while I was doing it) and could not believe that I was sleeping again since she first woke me up. I was actively thinking during all this time.
On another occassion I was really sleepy on a Sunday afternoon after a long walk and was chilling in my bed with my girlfriend again, while I tried to NOT fall asleep (at least not too deeply) because we had plans again in a short time, just wanted to rest my eyes a little.
After some time, I heard a disorted voice shouting my name, and came to full (waking) awareness again. But no one had called me, and my girlfriend was sleeping. So this must have been a part of the noise.

This two memories helped me to at least understand the meaning behind "anchors" when trying to WILD. In these two occasions, my anchors were "to not snore" and "to not fall asleep", as stupid as it sounds, and probably a dream would have formed soon if I didn't wake up so soon. (Maybe I would have lost awareness though, who knows...)
Now I'm trying to find an effective anchor that has a very similar effect and will practice exactly this in future (variant 2).

I actually want to practice variant 1 as well, because I think that I was close to reaching my goal with it (OP), but I'm not sure if that is reasonable. Maybe, as long as I can distinguish these two different variants and know what I'm doing, it won't mess up my practice.

@Voldmer: Now I understand what you meant when you mentioned OBE not being the same as WILD. I am sorry if I was being too rash for a noob.

TL;DR: There seems to be two variants of WILD. I'm trying to understand what the differences are and the meaning behind them.

I can only chime in here from my own limited WILD experience. I have always liked the basic premise that with WILD one can go right into a lucid dream rather than hope to become lucid in a dream. For that reason I have spent time on WILD techniques over these last months. My minor successes have always come from falling asleep after a period of HI.

In those experiences I felt as if the hypnagogic images were fragments of dreams that had kind of "primed the pump" for lucidity to bloom quickly after I let sleep take over.

It was only just recently that I was able to go directly into a LD without falling asleep. In that case I was feeling particularly clear and present during a very active period of HI and as sleep began to close in I consciously embraced the HI flow and imagined a very clear image of what I wanted to be doing. For those of you who have ever body surfed.....it was like catching a wave just right.

I'm thinking that the choice of the two WILD methods is dependent upon a few things including REM timing, and clarity. When I'm feeling sleepy during HI I know that I won't be able to catch that wave so I prime the pump, let sleep win, and hope for the best.

:)

Since this is the active WILD thread I will chime in with my own question. I WILD naturally, meaning I become aware of the sensation that arises moments before the transition into sleep and then just ride the tide.

But, this happens randomly, and I can only increase the chance of it happening.

I need to get rid of a specific, extremely intense itch/tickle on my nose that arises almost every time, lasts an eternity... and then, when I think it has stopped... it comes back! At some point I run out of willpower, scratch and give up for the night.

This tickle is the only thing that keeps me from doing intentional, scheduled WILD.
It is so intense that I can't ignore it. So then my only other strategy would be to focus on it meditatively. This removes the discomfort of it, but doesn't make it go away. And because the sensation is so strong the state of mind that comes from mindful observation of the tickle is not inductive to sleep... The tickle twarts most my scheduled WILD attempts.
What can I do?


For OP: About your active and passive variants... Combine them. The main goal is to fall asleep. But you can do this while doing techniques that incubate a lucid dream. Boring repetition of mantras, counting breaths, and visualization of a beautiful, calm and uneventful stage for the dream to take place will both incubate the lucid and make you sleepy at the same time. Just flow calmly through the sensation and try to remember what you are supposed to be doing. Don't turn into a Stone of Focus... just drift and relax and really feel it all while trying to somewhat follow you plan. You don't need to carry all your awareness all the way through. I often loose consciousness right before it starts, but the physical sensations that accompany the transition brings me back.

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Originally Posted by lenscaper

It was only just recently that I was able to go directly into a LD without falling asleep. In that case I was feeling particularly clear and present during a very active period of HI and as sleep began to close in I consciously embraced the HI flow and imagined a very clear image of what I wanted to be doing. For those of you who have ever body surfed.....it was like catching a wave just right.

I'm thinking that the choice of the two WILD methods is dependent upon a few things including REM timing, and clarity. When I'm feeling sleepy during HI I know that I won't be able to catch that wave so I prime the pump, let sleep win, and hope for the best.
:)

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Hi lenscaper, thank you for your advice. I know what you mean, and I also felt this wave a few times but haven't managed to catch it just right yet, because I got distracted every time and I came back to full awareness. I either get an alarmingly high heart rate just before the transition, twitching eye lids, or the feel that I can't let go of breathing manually haha. I guess this is all due to excitement, which is subsiding with practice.

Regarding the twitching eye lids: Sometimes, I sleep with my eyes slightly open and they try to open just before the transition probably. I might get a sleep mask.

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Originally Posted by LighrkVader

For OP: About your active and passive variants... Combine them. The main goal is to fall asleep. But you can do this while doing techniques that incubate a lucid dream. Boring repetition of mantras, counting breaths, and visualization of a beautiful, calm and uneventful stage for the dream to take place will both incubate the lucid and make you sleepy at the same time. Just flow calmly through the sensation and try to remember what you are supposed to be doing. Don't turn into a Stone of Focus... just drift and relax and really feel it all while trying to somewhat follow you plan. You don't need to carry all your awareness all the way through. I often loose consciousness right before it starts, but the physical sensations that accompany the transition brings me back.

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Hi LighrkVader, thank you for the advice. I will definitely combine them and keep practicing.