Thread: is this hypnagogia too?

Not sure what the technical definition is. The word I've seen thrown around is "dreamlet". However, this state's more of a very deep, vivid daydream than an actual dream. Unlike dreams, dreamlets don't necessarily occur at, or anywhere near, a REM state (a fact which you've succinctly surmised above). That's not to say dreamlets should be disregarded entirely. One can occasionally phase into/realize a full LD from a dreamlet via RCs, imagined movement, or other techniques. Just be cautious; a silver bullet this ain't.

Oh i see. But these dreamlets, the thing is i don't recognise I'm having one until it ends and I regain my normal waking state. So I'm not sure how to transition into an ld from this, have you ever read of anyone accomplishing this feat?
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I've had this many many times, and for many years now. This is a way I understand that I'm going to sleep now. Also I experience this when I'm going to sleep in the beginning of the night.

Originally Posted by Princessflare

Oh i see. But these dreamlets, the thing is i don't recognise I'm having one until it ends and I regain my normal waking state. So I'm not sure how to transition into an ld from this, have you ever read of anyone accomplishing this feat?
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I've had this many many times, and for many years now. This is a way I understand that I'm going to sleep now. Also I experience this when I'm going to sleep in the beginning of the night.

You're speaking to such a someone.

There are ways to realize the occurrences of dreamlets as they occur. For me, this typically happens during WILD attempts. It should be noted that it took quite some time before I could manage as such. Regardless, I've learned to treat dreamlets more as an incidence, rather than a step towards LDs; sometimes it can work with dream transitions, sometimes it doesn't. Feel free to try it yourself, with cautious optimism.

Thank you so much for the link!!!!!! Humbledreamer

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So in the beginning did you also never have awareness when you saw such scenes??
Also how do you get aware in it??
Thanks a lot
I've not talked to anyone who has this. This makes me happy!!

Hypnagogia is a transitional stage, sleep onset stage. It used to be used almost synonymously with N1 sleep, now there is a more sophisticated system, dividing the sleep onset into 9 stages (sleep onset stages according to Hori, proposed in 1994). The first two stages happen while still being awake, the last stage happens at the beginning of N2 sleep. So basically, when you experience a hypnagogic sensation (these are most often visual, followed by auditory and kinesthetic), you can be in any of these stages (W, N1, N2) but most probably you are in N1.

The important fact to understand is that the N1 sleep onset definition is arbitrary. Falling asleep is a gradual process. N1 sleep is often experienced consciously, it is drifting in and out of consciousness, and people awaken from N1 sleep very often perceive their state as being awake.
Going back and forth between the sleep onset stages (waking up a little bit and drifting off again) is also common because it is very easy to wake up from N1 sleep. It becomes increasingly more stable as the sleep onset progresses.

Typical sleep onset imagery is short, flat (2D), with the dreamer not present in the scene. Then they can get progressively more complex, longer, 3D, include additional senses, and generally more dream-like.
As RelicWraith said, the term dreamlets is often used for these.
They are different than normal dreams - shorter, they usually don't have narrative or fake histories etc.
You can see them as a part of later stages of sleep onset and they can be also seen as N1 dreams.

Their usability for lucidity is questionable. As you observed, they can happen on any sleep onset, even when REM is nowhere near.
Most people had no luck with them (for example, LaBerge recommends ignoring them).
I've had some luck couple of times but when they happen close to REM onset, it's impossible to tell if I really successfully forced the dream, using the dreamlet/HI, or if my REM was starting anyway.

The question if dreaming can be forced is a tough one (as opposed to simply waiting for REM). Some people claim they are able to do it. Some techniques seem to be doing exactly that (OBE techniques at the beginning of the night, the phase techniques using hypnopompic, the impossible movement technique etc.).
Maybe, once the proportion of theta waves is high enough (theta waves are dominant from Hori stage 5 and are thought to be important for hypnagogic imagery) it could be possible but I am just speculating, I don't really know. It could be much more complicated.

I completely agree with RelicWraith on the practicalities of WILD transitions.

Oh. Thanks for the detailed explanation. I get it.

I have had success with hypnogogia before. You can try practicing stabilization techniques (focus on senses), as if it is a full dream. Then, gently interact with the dreamlet, sort of peeling your body into it. Start with just one hand for example. The key is to be very gentle. Anything more than a slight touch will vaporize it. The goal is to coax the dreamlet into forming into a full dream. Of course, if you're at this point, it won't be long before a true dream forms anyway. Additionally, the line between hypnogogic vision/dreamlet and true dream is blurry. Mostly, it's useful as a landmark that you may be close to a lucid dream.

But I've absolutely no awareness during this dreamlet, how do interact with it when I don't know what is going on?

Originally Posted by Princessflare

So in the beginning did you also never have awareness when you saw such scenes??
Also how do you get aware in it??
Thanks a lot
I've not talked to anyone who has this. This makes me happy!!

I'd say two things helped retain awareness: WILD practices, and noting down my dreamlets in my dream journal. The latter became information I used to distinguish and categorize traits (eg patterns, vividness, when the dreamlets occurred, comparisons to full dreams), while the former's a matter of course. In time, I was able to keep awareness of dreamlets semi-regularly.

Again, on the matter of pre-sleep hallucinations, I should stress to approach with a cautious, tempered approach. Think of it as learning how to use a new tool. It helps to know how to use it, but it's important to know when to use it as well; you don't peel fruits with a hammer.

I get these A LOT too. Someone on another lucid dreaming forum (LD4ALL) told me this was hypnagogia.

hey guys. so i was trying mild a few hours ago, and it was going fine until my nose randomly started getting tense for no reason. and then it started twitching pretty hard like, a part of my upper lip started moving because of it too. and that pretty much made me end the attempt. so does any one of you experience this. i'd really like a fix pls!

also another thing i noticed was that, though my arms were placed normally, after a while they started to feel as if they are randomly twisted(?), like i dont know how to explain it better, they just felt twisted and placed differently. and my head too, after a while i feel like my head has moved too, like it has bent a little sideways. although i never move my head. does someone experience all this too? if someone knows about this, could you tell me if its the right thing?

thanks a lot!!

These spirals and colors sound like what I have likened to "Lava Lamp" colors. I see these a LOT and I can pretty much bring them on at will. They are not a physical phenomena because they do not modulate if I press on my closed eyelids -- which will immediately change the random firings of the rods and cones resting in a quiescent state with no photons hitting them.

If I could ever figure out how to convert these swirling colors to an LD I'd be golden.

These dreamlets are also something I have noticed for ages. One that I remember from years ago was like watching at a family in a park at a picnic table. The mother is dressed 1950's style with cat glasses and big dress down below the knees. I see it as through a very sheer white curtain, blowing softly in a quiet breeze. Sometimes I see them upside down and I am unable to make the image flip around to right side up.

I think maybe I will pay more attention to these visions and see if anything useful might come of them. I never thought of them as hypnogogia because they are so subtle. To me, hypnogogia is more like when I hear sounds in the room, especially when I hear someone speaking to me or calling my name. Now *that* really grabs my attention!

Were you able to become lucid with that? That sounds more like hypnagogic Transitioning sensations that were more physical Hallucinations. I think?

I have actually had something like this a couple of weeks ago. Why did it happen to me? It was because I was very sleep-deprived (I can not do lucid dreaming while I was extremely sleep-deprived) and was experiencing a hypnopompic hallucination. I, myself couldn't become lucid because the circumstance wasn't right for me to try to become lucid.

It is probably best to wait it out.

no i didnt become lucid. does this mean i was close or something?
also i forgot to mention this, i also sort of feel like my index finger and my thumb are touching. but i guess they are actually seperate(?) as i orignally placed them.

Originally Posted by Princessflare

no i didn't become lucid. does this mean i was close or something?

I'm not sure if it means that you were close to lucidity without knowing your sleep schedule. However, it is very possible.

Also, you may like to take a look at this thread about WILD, here: https://www.dreamviews.com/wild/1330...-bad-here.html

Topic Merged.

~HD.

Originally Posted by Princessflare

hey guys. so i was trying mild a few hours ago, and it was going fine until my nose randomly started getting tense for no reason. and then it started twitching pretty hard like, a part of my upper lip started moving because of it too. and that pretty much made me end the attempt. so does any one of you experience this. i'd really like a fix pls!

also another thing i noticed was that, though my arms were placed normally, after a while they started to feel as if they are randomly twisted(?), like i dont know how to explain it better, they just felt twisted and placed differently. and my head too, after a while i feel like my head has moved too, like it has bent a little sideways. although i never move my head. does someone experience all this too? if someone knows about this, could you tell me if its the right thing?

thanks a lot!!

These sensations are normal. If you are conscious enough, you may discover that sometimes they are happening only in your mind, and your physical lip may not actually be moving. Obviously, sometimes they are really happening. But don't assume! Hypnogogia is very powerful, and when we get sleepy, we don't often know what is real and what is illusion.

I honestly believe these sensations are your body's mechanism for testing whether or not your mind is asleep, so that it can initiate dreaming. Does this mean that you were close to a lucid dream? Unfortunately, no.

What it does mean is that you are on the normal path toward sleep, and your body is doing its normal thing. You could still be a ways from an LD because there are other factors involved. For example, you must be relaxed enough, physically and mentally, to drift deeply enough into trance (there are levels of trance), while still conscious. If you are not relaxed enough, you will hang about in this half-sleep state, having itches and twitches, until you either give up, or fall into unconsciousness.

How to handle?

1. Don't give in. Don't itch, don't pay attention to the twitches. Remember: you're trying to trick your body into thinking your mind is asleep.
2. Practice relaxation techniques. 61 point technique in Laberge's book, Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, for example, is great. There are others. Imagine yourself sinking and sinking and sinking... Imagine yourself surrounded by warm waters...

Good luck.

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

These sensations are normal. If you are conscious enough, you may discover that sometimes they are happening only in your mind, and your physical lip may not actually be moving. Obviously, sometimes they are really happening. But don't assume! Hypnogogia is very powerful, and when we get sleepy, we don't often know what is real and what is illusion.

I honestly believe these sensations are your body's mechanism for testing whether or not your mind is asleep, so that it can initiate dreaming. Does this mean that you were close to a lucid dream? Unfortunately, no.

What it does mean is that you are on the normal path toward sleep, and your body is doing its normal thing. You could still be a ways from an LD because there are other factors involved. For example, you must be relaxed enough, physically and mentally, to drift deeply enough into trance (there are levels of trance), while still conscious. If you are not relaxed enough, you will hang about in this half-sleep state, having itches and twitches, until you either give up, or fall into unconsciousness.

How to handle?

1. Don't give in. Don't itch, don't pay attention to the twitches. Remember: you're trying to trick your body into thinking your mind is asleep.
2. Practice relaxation techniques. 61 point technique in Laberge's book, Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, for example, is great. There are others. Imagine yourself sinking and sinking and sinking... Imagine yourself surrounded by warm waters...

Good luck.

alright i will do that, thank you so much!!