Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Originally Posted by RareCola

I had this issue for ages, I eventually found a "I wake up after each of my dreams" mantra to help a lot. I even extended it to "I wake up after each of my dreams and recall them perfectly". Maybe try something like that out?

I've started using "I am going to wake up from a dream in six hours, and recall the dream perfectly." It seems to work. I'm sure I wake up briefly after most of my REM cycles but I don't remember the other awakenings. I probably just roll over and go back to sleep.

Also, I've read in the literature that came with my sleep-monitoring device that natural brief awakenings from REM sleep don't impact the quality of your sleep. In other words, if you wake up, and remain awake for only a few minutes, your body benefits from your sleep as if it were uninterrupted. The obvious exception being, of course, sleep apnoea, but that's another story.

Sageous, I have noticed my DEILD/WILD transitions are begining to change completely. This morning, I didn't know it at the time, but I was for sure in a SP like state with no physical sensations whatsoever. I "rubbed" my hands together because I was trying to stabilize a lucid dream but It felt and sounded so totally REAL that I thought I was awake. I could hear the fan vividly and I partially felt my body in the bed. Then, I heard my wife tell me to "punch em in the face." So I thought maybe I was in a SP/Dream state but I dismissed it as her talking in her sleep. I believed this because there were no vibrations or tingles that I am used to having in this in-between stage. I later found out that she was actually sitting up awake with the baby while this was going on an she told me she said nothing. So it was definitely hallucination.

Now I said all that to ask this: Have you experienced a change in how you transition or lucid dream in general? I guess this is why you say over and over that SP is just noise! So I feel like I am relearning WILD now. Maybe I need to re read your class but how do I adjust to this? What are your thoughts? I have talked to another very experienced DV member and she said these changes happen to her as well. So I guess I have to find my own answer here but I was hoping for some guidance.

^^ Ah, Xanous, how you task me!

First, to answer your question, I think:

Yes, over the years I noticed a change in how I transition to a LD, and certainly in the nature of the LD as well. Originally I too allowed the "noise" to hold too much sway, but, having the advantage of terms like SP, HI, or even WILD never crossing my horizon (SP as it's -- incorrectly -- known now wasn't even invented yet), I learned to at first work around the noise and finally to ignore it. Now my WILD's are downright placid, and noise is nonexistent in my DEILDs. My LD's have improved as well over the years, and, though I think that comes mostly from practice and hard work on the fundamentals, I think the added focus gained from ignoring meaningless noise has given me an additional awareness toehold once in the dream state.

Now to the other answer that you won't so much want to hear, I think:

I'll start by stealing a quote from the noise session of my WILD class:

SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LD’ing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP.

I think your main problem, Xanous, is that you're still dedicating too much of your attention and conscious energy to the noise. You've simply got to learn to push aside all that noise -- including not only SP and vibrations, but also HI in your case, as it too might prove a real distraction for you. It may feel innocent at the time, but the very acts of thinking about SP (in any way), deciding what something you might have heard means, or even checking your hands before you're reasonably confident you're in a dream will prove to be nothing more than distractions from your true goal of carrying your self-awareness into a dream.

Get past this Xanous, and you'll be golden, given your proven skills and powerful expectations and desires. And, as usual, you may have given yourself the best advice in that this is an answer you made need to work through yourself. In truth there are no changes; you're just seeing more as you progress -- how you personally deal with what you see will determine your success, I think.

Ah, Xanous, how you task me!

First, to answer your question, I think:

Yes, over the years I noticed a change in how I transition to a LD, and certainly in the nature of the LD as well. Originally I too allowed the "noise" to hold too much sway, but, having the advantage of terms like SP, HI, or even WILD never crossing my horizon (SP as it's -- incorrectly -- known now wasn't even invented yet), I learned to at first work around the noise and finally to ignore it. Now my WILD's are downright placid, and noise is nonexistent in my DEILDs. My LD's have improved as well over the years, and, though I think that comes mostly from practice and hard work on the fundamentals, I think the added focus gained from ignoring meaningless noise has given me an additional awareness toehold once in the dream state.

That's good to know this is "normal".

SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LD’ing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP.

I always enjoy your sense of humor. I get why you stress that, It's just I have come to rely on certain noise as a signal to know that its time to enter the dream. How else can I know its time? Any examples? Or is that just for me to work out because we are all different?

I think your main problem, Xanous, is that you're still dedicating too much of your attention and conscious energy to the noise.

Ah your are so spot on! Truth is I have come to enjoy those sensations almost as much as lucidity. But if its a stumbling block I can let that go.

but also HI in your case, as it too might prove a real distraction for you.

I thought HI was good toward building the dream?

It may feel innocent at the time, but the very acts of thinking about SP (in any way), deciding what something you might have heard means, or even checking your hands before you're reasonably confident you're in a dream will prove to be nothing more than distractions from your true goal of carrying your self-awareness into a dream.

You just made me realize how much I do this!

Get past this Xanous, and you'll be golden, given your proven skills and powerful expectations and desires. And, as usual, you may have given yourself the best advice in that this is an answer you made need to work through yourself. In truth there are no changes; you're just seeing more as you progress -- how you personally deal with what you see will determine your success, I think.

Thanks for the complement. I think I have a better understanding but I am not sure how to deal with it. I am going to go back over the class when I get a chance and see what I forgot or missed. And thanks for the help. It is always so much appreciated!

Originally Posted by Xanous

I always enjoy your sense of humor. I get why you stress that, It's just I have come to rely on certain noise as a signal to know that its time to enter the dream. How else can I know its time? Any examples? Or is that just for me to work out because we are all different?

Well, we're not all that different ... I have a feeling that, with the mental prep you seem capable of, you will know when you've reached your dream -- either that or all the images gathering about you will be a dead giveaway! In other words, all the talk around here about SP etc has clouded the real issue of WILD: It's not about techniques, or reaching plateaus, or whatever other gobbledygook they're incessantly cooking up on these forums. No, WILD is all about maintaining your self-awareness while your body naturally falls asleep around you, with your efforts being rewarded by a lucid dream. Period. There is no need to rely on the noise -- even if you believe that is the case, I still recommend you ignore it; sorry about that!

Examples? I got nothing, at least nothing that won't sound plain silly. Suffice it to say that if you maintain your self-awareness and focus until REM, examples of your own creation will readily appear; it can't be avoided.

Truth is I have come to enjoy those sensations almost as much as lucidity. But if its a stumbling block I can let that go.

Now that is a different story. If you enjoy the sensations, and find value in their exploration, then that might be just thing for you -- I can offer no argument against soaking up the crazy stuff your body and mind have to offer. But if you want to tap the stuff of your spirit, the really crazy stuff, then you must go to the dreamworld, self-awareness (and memory, if possible) intact. And, yes, if you want to do that consistently through WILD, you'll likely have to let the noise go, at least now and then.

I thought HI was good toward building the dream?

Normally that is definitely the case. Normally. I waxed counter to my "textbook" in your case because I think the distraction of HI might outweigh its use in forming your dream. I'm pretty sure I described it as an option in the class anyway, and not a necessity, and if I had my wits about me I might even have warned about taking HI too seriously. I think you can successfully form a dream without using HI, either by building your own schemas or simply waiting until you find yourself in a dream, and work from there. Bottom line, there is a chance using HI might not work for you, specifically.

I think I have a better understanding but I am not sure how to deal with it. I am going to go back over the class when I get a chance and see what I forgot or missed.

That's a good idea, if I do say so. I hope it helps ... if not, well, you know where to find me!

well you've given me a lot to think about. I will definitely be working on this. Thanks again!

So I've been practicing DEILDing a lot lately. It seems like whenever I actually stay still and don't close my eyes upon awakening, I just lay there in darkness. I'm only aware for a couple of seconds, but before I know it I wake up a couple of hours later.
Is there a reason for why this is? Do I need more awareness? It's like when I wake up totally still I'm in some sort of half-asleep state. Like I'm really drowsy even though my eyes are closed.. so I don't really know what's going on and slip back into sleep.

^^ It sounds, Sydney, like you're not quite waking up enough, odd as that may sound: more awareness would indeed help you, as would memory.

Why? Because DEILD isn't just a function of almost waking up and then going back to sleep. You need to both have possession of waking awareness and a real sense of either the dream you were just in or your previously set intentions for the next dream to be lucid.

In other words, DEILD is a transition just like WILD, except without the wait or annoying distractions. So you still need mental prep for DEILD, and your self-awareness and memory -- those pesky fundamentals-- must be participating. DEILD doesn't work on its own.

I suggest Sydney that you do a quick review of Session7 of my class, where I go into a little more detail about DEILD.

Does WILD feel the same toward the end as DIELD does? I know what a DEILD feels like but not a WILD, and i just cant seem to understand it. I think if it was possible to describe exactly what the state of mind feels like, the tutorial parts would even be needed.

For myself, could you tell me if im on the right track. Sometimes, ill hear voices. Only for a short time, as in one words length. I heard my mom shout "Chris!" to me once. HI probably. If i can keep going in that direction, is that good? What is the cue for you that lets you know you're almost done? Come on, there must be something.

I'm asking this because confidence is a major weakness of mine.

Hey Sageous, have you ever WILD in a non-lucid dream? I had a dream where I was trying and I hit SP but I got embarrassed because I had family members in the room and I thought they could see me twitching. Does that even make sense or is it an oxymoron?

i managed to have a DEILD the other night and a DILD tonight. Pretty awesome for me to start getting lucids more frequently.

The thing is, I feel like when I DEILD sometimes, i never actually wake up. It seems like there is a brief pause imbetween dreams where my awareness suddenly kicks in and my mind starts battling with itself because it cant dinstinguish the dream from reality so right when i get into the dream, I look at my hands and I either have more or less fingers than normal or something funky is going on with my hands. Its kind of hard to explain but i believe im getting better at this but i still have my doubts. I still have alot of work to do.

What should I do if I get bored and feel like giving up? I was 20 minutes in last night and felt some vibrations, but they would come and go (I tried not to pay attention to them).

Sorry for the delay; I've been away...

Originally Posted by ThAtaInTmE

Does WILD feel the same toward the end as DIELD does? I know what a DEILD feels like but not a WILD, and i just cant seem to understand it. I think if it was possible to describe exactly what the state of mind feels like, the tutorial parts would even be needed.

DEILD is a form of WILD, so yes, WILD will feel the same toward the end as DEILD; that could actually be a nice bit of info to hold onto as you progress through your WILD.

For myself, could you tell me if im on the right track. Sometimes, ill hear voices. Only for a short time, as in one words length. I heard my mom shout "Chris!" to me once. HI probably. If i can keep going in that direction, is that good? What is the cue for you that lets you know you're almost done? Come on, there must be something.

As a matter of fact, when I was first starting all this, and long before I even knew there were terms like HI, I used what I called "my little voices" as a roadmark toward the dream. I would hear conversations spoken audibly but just quiet enough to be unintelligible, and that would encourage me to renew my focus and remember my intentions. And yes, I tried more than once to understand what these voices were saying, but when I noticed those efforts were ending my chances of being awake in a dream, I stopped.

What is the cue for me now? In truth, it's different every time, dependent on variables like my mood, level of tiredness, focus, and even what I ate that day. I think the only consistent cue for me is the beginning of the dream forming -- when things start appearing that are not HI, but images "trying to be real," I know the dream is seconds away. I know that wasn't much help, and may not have made sense at all, but it is true: if your self-awareness is strong enough, you will not need cues; only patience.

Originally Posted by Xanous

Hey Sageous, have you ever WILD in a non-lucid dream? I had a dream where I was trying and I hit SP but I got embarrassed because I had family members in the room and I thought they could see me twitching. Does that even make sense or is it an oxymoron?

Many times. False lucids -- even WILD's, are a regular event with me!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sorry for the delay; I've been away...

No prob

Originally Posted by Sageous

DEILD is a form of WILD, so yes, WILD will feel the same toward the end as DEILD; that could actually be a nice bit of info to hold onto as you progress through your WILD.

Yes, and act as a confidence booster

Originally Posted by Sageous

What is the cue for me now? I think the only consistent cue for me is the beginning of the dream forming -- when things start appearing that are not HI, but images "trying to be real," I know the dream is seconds away.

Hmm, so kind of like the time i posted a while ago about my vivid schema-type HI. Ok this will help! I'll have an even better idea of what its like

Im taking melatonin as a sleep aid now, but interestingly enough it does the opposite; I wake up 2+ times a night now, buuuut, feel alot more tired than i would any other time when i wake up, good for WILD.

Originally Posted by Taffy

What should I do if I get bored and feel like giving up? I was 20 minutes in last night and felt some vibrations, but they would come and go (I tried not to pay attention to them).

If you get bored after 20 minutes, which BTW is not a long time in WILDland, before giving up try setting your mantra etc aside, and spend some time imagining just the kind of dream you'd like to be in. Be as creative as you can -- really get into it.

Doing this might not help your WILD, but it might get you a DILD, or at worst will give you some entertainment to offset the boredom, and the potential of a cool dream might just shift your interest to continue your efforts.

Originally Posted by Sageous

If you get bored after 20 minutes, which BTW is not a long time in WILDland, before giving up try setting your mantra etc aside, and spend some time imagining just the kind of dream you'd like to be in. Be as creative as you can -- really get into it.

Doing this might not help your WILD, but it might get you a DILD, or at worst will give you some entertainment to offset the boredom, and the potential of a cool dream might just shift your interest to continue your efforts.

Ah, that's a good idea. I'll try that.

Hey Sageous, I've been reading up a lot about your RRC and it's confusing me a bit. Throughout the day when I do these checks I ask myself the questions you stated, and to give it more feeling I point my eyes upwards (that's what your eyes do if you think of something when you're a visual thinker, which I am) and try to make expressions you use when you're looking for something, an answer. Pretty much thinking about a question that isn't really there. Is that about right?

^^ You might be getting a bit too abstract in your efforts, Athylus.

An RRC is as simple as it sounds: just think about where you just were, where you are right now, and where you will be in a few minutes, and then about how you are effecting your local reality at that moment, and vise-versa. You're literally considering your actual moment; there's no need to think about questions that aren't there. As far as I know, facial expressions won't help in this exercise, but if they help you increase your focus, then go for it.

Bottom line: you're actually thinking about a question that is there. Try not to put too much importance on the question itself (you can ask other things), and more on the act of wondering about where you are right now, and what impact your presence is having on reality (and it on you).

I hope that made sense; if it didn't, or I misunderstood you, let me know and I'll try again.

Sageous, I've been reading about the self-awareness techniques you posted, and I'm sorry if this question has been asked many times, but what exactly do you mean when you say "think about how you are effecting your local reality at that moment, and vise-versa"?

^^ I'm happy to answer this again, of course!

What I meant was exactly what I wrote, no more, no less: everything that you do, say, touch, and extend your shadow over has some effect on your local reality. Think about the things you just said, or did, and what those words or actions might do to those around you. Wonder about your very presence in the air around you, and that you are displacing a part of your world simply by moving through it (albeit a small part, but still a part). And, conversely, think about what effects the world around you might have just had on you... what people said/what you heard, what the weather was like, what the TV or computer might have told you. The list of things that you effect and will effect, and what effects you and will effect you, is almost limitless, and really wondering about it, and about your place in what's going on around you, will help build your self-awareness and provide you with an excellent tool for recognizing and controlling your dreams, when the time comes.

Thanks for that, I think I get it now. Is it like saying, because I'm currently here, existing, I'm effecting everything around me, such as the sofa I'm sitting on reclines a bit when I sit on it and goes back to normal because of my actions.

Could you think of it as "if I wasn't here, at this moment, I wouldn't be effecting ....."?

^^ Yes, you got it!

You could Think of it in negative terms ("if I wasn't here at this moment...") during a RRC, and that would help your self-awareness for certain, but keep in mind that the final goal of this exercise is to not just self-awareness, but self-awareness in the context of successfully navigating WILD's. The difference is important, because in a dream there is no "reality" at all once you're subtracted from it. I suppose that might be philosophically intriguing duringba high-level LD, and might even inspire some cool nihilistic control, but overall it might only serve to confuse, or, worse, encourage non-lucidity to fill in the voids you're imagining.

I'm trying to go for a DILD. Is your self-awareness technique better suited for that compared to ADA?