Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

^^ I've never seen any reason to hold the mantra straight into the dream, though I suppose something could be said in favor of doing so (i.e., it will help hold your focus fast in the dream as well, and might be a good tool for remembering your goals). Generally, for me, a mantra is a powerful tool for getting you to and through the critical transition from wake to sleep. Once you are asleep, and a dream is on tap, I don't think it is necessary anymore.

Also, keep in mind that HI is merely noise that you may or may not encounter at some point during a WILD; HI is by no means a thing you want to "get to," and if you abandon your focus because you encountered some HI, you likely will also be abandoning your WILD. Try to consider HI a handy milepost, should you encounter it, and, unless you have a plan for using its imagery to help you form your dream, try to ignore it.

Thanks, usually on my WILD attempts though, I experience a lot of ‘noise’, usually in the form of sensations like Sleep paralysis or vibrations etc. and I find ignoring it to be extremely difficult. I tried some things like combining the mantra with visualizations or a dream scene to try and ignore it, but for some reason, I can’t seem to fully steer my mind away from it (even though I know it’s only a milepost), and the WILD attempt usually starts to fade or end very quickly. Is there anything you would recommend for making ignoring the noise a bit easier? Thanks a lot.

^^ Well, using that mantra straight to the dream might be a good idea in your case, because it will give you a handle to which to cling while weathering HI.

There's not much else you can do, beyond trying to remember that, "noisy" as it may get around you, this stuff is nothing special and just needs to pass on by. You could also do something to occupy your mind, like thinking about the coming dream, to offset the distractions of HI... It sounds like you're already trying to do all these things, though, so you likely are on the right path -- you might only need some time to finally get used to the noise, and let it exist beside you as you head for your dream.

Also, if you can never learn to ignore the noise, there is always DILD and DEILD!

Sorry these weren't answers you wanted to hear, but dealing with the noise really is subject to experience and practice, and not a handy trick or two.

Yes I think the noise is my only main difficulty, however, I’m sure continued practice will help to overcome that eventually. Thanks again for your advice!

Sageous,

Sorry to bother you again.

As WILD still isn’t going so well I have decided to try doing ‘The Other WILD’ (DEILD). I used autosuggestion to remember to stay still upon awakening and have managed to do this on a few occasions. Upon awakening, I would imagine being back in the dream I’ve just come from, or would try to create a new one, however, I can never seem to get back into the dream and have waited sometimes up to 30 minutes without anything happening. Usually I would just get tired of waiting before eventually just changing sleeping position and going back to sleep normally. Sometimes it feels as if I’m trying to do a regular WILD. Is there something I’m not doing right about DEILD?

Also, if a REM period ends and you awaken from a dream, does that mean you have to wait a while in NREM sleep until another REM period comes along so you can enter a dream again?

Thanks for your time.

Originally Posted by Eamo24

As WILD still isn’t going so well I have decided to try doing ‘The Other WILD’ (DEILD). I used autosuggestion to remember to stay still upon awakening and have managed to do this on a few occasions. Upon awakening, I would imagine being back in the dream I’ve just come from, or would try to create a new one, however, I can never seem to get back into the dream and have waited sometimes up to 30 minutes without anything happening. Usually I would just get tired of waiting before eventually just changing sleeping position and going back to sleep normally. Sometimes it feels as if I’m trying to do a regular WILD. Is there something I’m not doing right about DEILD?

It's hard to say what you're doing wrong, mostly because you might be doing nothing wrong, and just need to try it a few times, but here are a couple of thoughts:

First, you might be trying too hard. DEILD for me is very much an intuitive process. In other words, it's based more on your mindset -- your expectations, intentions you set the night before, and, of course, a hearty portion of self-awareness -- than it is on any particular technique. What a shock, right? So, you may perhaps be trying too hard to get back into a dream. Also, if you're trying for 30 minutes, you're actually back to doing a classic WILD, and have left the DEILD attempt behind. When you awaken, instead of getting immediately to "work," just lie there quietly, mentally quietly, and let yourself hold onto the dream you were just in. You don't have to try to reproduce it, or really to force anything at all. Just stay dreamy, and stay asleep. Which brings me to my next thought:

I suggest that you rethink using autosuggestion to wake yourself up. Sometimes autosuggestion works too well, and your obliging unconscious will see that you are fully awake immediately. This is not as far-fetched as it sounds, because the triggers to ignite your reticular system (the bit of your brain in charge of waking you up) are easily pulled. So autosuggesting yourself awake might work too well; as in alarm-clock-well, and you don't want that.

Also, DEILD seems to work best when you capitalize on those brief moments of near-waking that we all do all night -- even during REM periods later on in the sleep cycle (more in a sec) -- so, instead of programming yourself to waken, I suggest you work on preparing yourself to be ready to notice those brief near-waking moments, and attempt your DEILD then. This is not as hard as it sounds, and with a little practice you'll be catching yourself on the bridge between wake and sleep regularly.

Bottom line: don't try too hard, and auto-suggesting yourself awake might not be the best idea.

Also, if a REM period ends and you awaken from a dream, does that mean you have to wait a while in NREM sleep until another REM period comes along so you can enter a dream again?

Yes, it does, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. If you know you are in NREM, and are lucid, you can enjoy a few peaceful moments of stimulus-free consciousness while your next dream spools up. Also, as NREM has its own value, you can capitalize on being there and doing a little exploring!

If however, you are attempting DEILD's after several hours of sleep (as you should be doing), REM periods are close enough together that your dreamworld will never be too far off. And, as I said above, if you "almost" wake naturally, instead of forcing yourself fully awake, you will likely be even closer to a REM period.

I'm not sure this all made sense, so be sure to ask again if anything is confusing, or if I managed to once again fully contradict something I said in the session...

Thanks, that’s some very helpful advice! About the brief ‘near-waking’ moments you mentioned, how should I go about preparing myself to notice when they happen? Is there a difference in this compared to the autosuggestion I was trying before?

^^ That's a good question. I think the best way to prepare yourself is to develop your self-awareness during the day (through things like RRC's introspection, building expectation -- you know the drill!). If you can come to a mental place where you are always remembering your presence in reality, then recognizing the state of that reality (in this case, a dream exit), should be fairly easy. Unfortunately, there is no rote technique that you can just do to observe those near-waking moments -- not one that I know of, anyway. But if your mind is prepared and open to recognize changes in its own state (the polar opposite of its "ignore all changes" default state), DEILD's won't be a problem.

And, of course, if you are already successfully DILDing, DEILD's from LD's are very easy, since you are already in a lucid state and able to recognize that near-waking state as it happens.

I think this action of noticing the near-waking state before DEILD is much different that auto-suggesting yourself to induce an actual waking state. If you can do it, autosuggestion is a good thing, and can help you with MILD's, especially. But it is something of a blunt tool, so it will tend to make things happen to you, rather than allow you to observe changes occurring within you. Now I could be wrong, and if you can auto-suggest yourself to be "ready to notice" a subtle change in your environment that means you are close to waking consciousness, then go for it.

Bottom line, I guess, is that the best way to learn to consistently recognize and work with that near-waking state is through practice, practice, practice. There is no real trick to it, but eventually you won't need one. It would also help to have some successful DILD's that occur just before waking.

Just wrote a long response that my browser ate. Hope it was tasty, Safari!

Originally Posted by Sageous

When you awaken, instead of getting immediately to "work," just lie there quietly, mentally quietly, and let yourself hold onto the dream you were just in. You don't have to try to reproduce it, or really to force anything at all. Just stay dreamy, and stay asleep. Which brings me to my next thought:

Yes, this!

Originally Posted by Sageous

It would also help to have some successful DILD's that occur just before waking.

and this!

I for the first time reentered a dream after waking from a lucid dream last night. The lucid moment was super short at the end of a longer dream, just a brief moment of lucidity while waking up. Because the lucidity was so short I was not very awake/aware, and not feeling compelled to record it in my journal, I just lay there not moving, very lightly considering the dream, and being tired, just fell back asleep...

... and I re-entered the dream! It felt like a false awakening (which I did not catch). Alas, non-lucidly, and in a room to the side. I eventually explored and found the room where I had become lucid while waking earlier.

In retrospect, I followed all the advice of how to DEILD without actually intending to DEILD: remained still, quietly thought of the dream, and just drifted back to sleep.

It was a real eye-opener, and I really feel now the difference between this successful dream re-entry, and my failures at DEILD attempts at waking up from all my other LDs.

With my other DEILD attempts from longer LDs, I think more intensely about the LD, my mindset is not sleepy & calm, usually I'm excited or a bit frustrated at waking from the dream, I'm trying to thoroughly recall all the dream details in order to journal the dream in detail, running over and over the dream details in my mind. Now, I have felt what it's like to fall back into the dream, I have a better idea of the mindset it takes to successfully DEILD. As Sageous said, *mental quiet* is the key.

I'd like to practice DEILD when waking from normal dreams, too, as my ND waking mindset is compatible with DEILD, but I'm typically never aware of the waking process from normal dreams, and I typically do not recall dreams without explicitly calling for recall, e.g., "What was I just dreaming about?".

Sageous,

I like the idea of increasing self-awareness, and the RRC concept really helps. I’m still, though, a little confused about some things:

Do you mean that to succeed at DEILD requires boosting your self-awareness to such an extent that you can naturally realize changes as subtle as a dream-exit? You also said that it would be better to avoid using autosuggestion, however, you mentioned that DEILD also requires the building of expectation/intention the night before. I was thinking that wouldn’t this be similar to autosuggestion? I’m still just slightly confused as to how it all comes together, and what the ‘practice’ would consist of when working towards noticing the near-waking state. Thank you again for your answer, hopefully I won’t have too many more questions !

Originally Posted by Eamo24

Do you mean that to succeed at DEILD requires boosting your self-awareness to such an extent that you can naturally realize changes as subtle as a dream-exit?

No.

First: Yes, if your self-awareness is at a level where you can consistently notice subtle changes in your state, then doing DEILD's (and classic WILD's, and DILD's) will be a snap. I really think that self-awareness is the key to all of this, so excellent self-awareness skills would indeed be a great foundation for triggering LD's and accessing memory to make those LD's well worth the trip.

But that is not the whole story. Yes, awesome self-awareness would solve all your problems, but it is not the only solution or requirement. Though you will always need some self-awareness to successfully DEILD (and LD in general), you can augment it with things like timing (i.e., do those DEILD's late in the sleep cycle), expectation/intention (i.e. plan regularly on doing DEILD's; add an intention to remember to do a DEILD when the dream ends), and simply repetitively practicing DEILD's. I think if you get in a routine of regularly attempting DEILD's, especially after LD's, you'll find yourself successful more and more often. Indeed, I don't even think about DEILD's anymore; I just reach for them as a tool when I find the dream I'm in to be one worth returning to after my body finishes its required "wake-up" period... and I'm not boasting; just confirming that DEILD's can become quite easy, once you've gotten your mind and body used to doing them (as opposed to classic WILD's, which I still find difficult, even after countless successful dives).

So yes, perfect self-awareness would certainly solve your DEILD problems, and many others. But, given that that perfect self-awareness is pretty much unobtainable by we mere mortals, there are other bits to DEILD that help support spotty or minimal self-awareness.

You also said that it would be better to avoid using autosuggestion, however, you mentioned that DEILD also requires the building of expectation/intention the night before. I was thinking that wouldn’t this be similar to autosuggestion?

Though it is arguable, I don't think setting intention and autosuggestion are the same thing, and I'm sure that autosuggestion has nothing to do with expectation.

I see setting intention as more of a mental gearshift than the precise instruction to my unconscious that would be autosuggestion. On paper the difference seems like semantics, but in practice, I think setting intention -- simply putting your mind in the right place before a dream, perhaps by assuring yourself that you will lucid dream tonight, or that you will meet your dream guide -- is far different than specifically hypnotizing yourself to respond to certain stimuli in the dream (which is a fine thing to do, BTW; don't get me wrong!).

For instance, though setting an intention to, say, "go to DEILD just before waking," might work for you (and then would be much like autosuggestion), I haven't seen much success for setting intention so precisely, especially when you consider it must work after a full night of dreams (and several other, earlier, wake-up moments when a DEILD attempt is not as good an idea). I suppose that, since I don't practice autosuggestion (I'm useless at such things), I could have it all wrong and autosuggestion can be the same as setting intention.

Expectation, though I usually list with intention, is a much more global affair, and really doesn't equate to autosuggestion at all.

I’m still just slightly confused as to how it all comes together, and what the ‘practice’ would consist of when working towards noticing the near-waking state.

For what it's worth, when you finally do have your successful DEILD -- and you will -- I think you will find yourself mildly surprised at how simple it turned out to be. For now, just keep trying it, preferably beginning at the end of an LD and avoiding fully waking up at all, and in time you will see it all come together -- all with minimal intellectual or technical input from you.

Hello Sageous.

I got a handle of every thing in your lessons, I think, but there are these last 2 questions that haunt me:

1- When I RRC, I like to wonder about my existence, like you said, but also in a way that I am temporary in this world, and I have a start and eventually an end. Pretty much considering that I will die someday. This seems to give me a transcendence moment and increase the wonder drastically, but is it actually good? Or can it backfire in some way?

2-I know I shouldn't practice MILD visualizations while RRCing, because it may hinder the process of self-awareness, but is it better if I stop the whole process of the MILD visualization? Since I will become always(well, to an extent) self-aware in waking life, then practicing MILD visualization will surely meet my self-awareness and effect it? The question is, will it effect it negatively?

Thank you in advance for any help you may give, and I wish you a happy new year^^!!!

Originally Posted by Sageous

...
For what it's worth, when you finally do have your successful DEILD -- and you will -- I think you will find yourself mildly surprised at how simple it turned out to be. For now, just keep trying it, preferably beginning at the end of an LD and avoiding fully waking up at all, and in time you will see it all come together -- all with minimal intellectual or technical input from you.

As always, Sageous hits it right on the mark!

Just woke from my first DEILD!:

First day of 2014, first DEILD! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

and the cool thing was that it was not a waking from a LD, just a ND! Same as my previous dream re-entry: lying quietly, lightly considering the dreams I woke from, happy I had any recall at all, decided to try DEILD, and just drifted off with the notion of the dreams still in my head (not trying to vigorously replay or recall)....and the next thing I knew, I'm in the dream (the rest is in the DJ). I was probably about 1/2 lucid right at the start, curious about this starting image/scene and where it came from, and got the full lucid rush once I stepped into the dream.

The key really is "minimal input" -- as Sageous wrote, stay quiet, stay asleep, think *lightly* of the dream, and drift off...

Originally Posted by LouaiB

1- When I RRC, I like to wonder about my existence, like you said, but also in a way that I am temporary in this world, and I have a start and eventually an end. Pretty much considering that I will die someday. This seems to give me a transcendence moment and increase the wonder drastically, but is it actually good? Or can it backfire in some way?

Though reverie of this type is a good thing in general, and we would live in a different world if that transcendental moment you mention were to be had by everyone now and then, I don't think this is helpful to LD'ing; and it can indeed backfire in a big way.

Why? Because the point of an RRC, as I see it, is to note, to encounter, your interaction with your local reality, with local being the operative word here. What you're looking to do is develop a sense that you're directly involved with your reality, and that you have a real hand in its events. You're looking to do this so that, come dreamtime, you'll not only have that feeling of involvement, but you'll also know that, because the entire local reality in a dream is your own, your interaction with that reality is actually an interaction with yourself. With that kind of mindset, lucidity, in a sense, can't be avoided.

However, if you are in a dream and start thinking about your ephemeral existence in this world, your insignificance in the Grand Scheme of Things, you might go in the opposite direction and apply too much credence to your dream world, making it more "real," and more imposing, than it was before. Doing so is effectively limiting your self-awareness and your importance to your dream world, and thus reducing your chances of understanding where your really are, and lucidity.

2-I know I shouldn't practice MILD visualizations while RRCing, because it may hinder the process of self-awareness, but is it better if I stop the whole process of the MILD visualization? Since I will become always(well, to an extent) self-aware in waking life, then practicing MILD visualization will surely meet my self-awareness and effect it? The question is, will it effect it negatively?

Yes, doing MILD visualizations during RRC's is not a good idea, but there is no need to stop doing those visualizations in general, as they are very helpful to LD'ing in general, especially in the memory and expectations department.

So, your MILD work (when done separately from RRC's) will indeed meet and effect your self-awareness work, but it will do so in a complementary fashion, definitely not negatively. In effect what you'll be doing is nurturing all three legs of the LD'ing fundamentals stool (Self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention) by keeping up both practices... not so negative at all, I think!

Hi Sageous,

I’ve had a few WILD attempts recently, and I think I might be getting closer to achieving it. I’ve found it very helpful to wait until I experience some HI to hold on to, and then use it as a guide towards the dream.

I would try to stay relaxed and watch the HI turn into some sort of miniature dream or ‘narrative’. I approach it as if I’m interested in seeing what my subconscious can produce. On many occasions, I’ve gotten to the stage where I felt like I was actually watching a dream take place with dialogue, and imagery that was extremely detailed and examinable. I still, though, felt ‘awake’ and in reality and didn’t feel like I was actually participating in the dream, but merely watching it. Usually at this point, it gets very difficult to maintain awareness, and even consciousness.

So do you think I was close to WILDing on these occasions? Would this be a good way to go about a WILD attempt? It’s just I’ve done this a few times and can usually get very far when holding onto HI, but have yet to actually ‘enter’ the dream.

Thanks.

^^ You likely were close to completing a WILD, Eamo24, but you might find it difficult finishing your dive while paying such attention to HI.

By elevating the importance of HI, or possibly dreamlets, without a focus on the upcoming dream itself, you are reducing the importance of that actual dream. Plus, by remaining a distant spectator, you are reducing the importance of your own presence in the transition of wake to sleep. Given that, I imagine that self-awareness would be difficult to maintain!

Instead of just watching the imagery form itself, why not use the imagery to help you form your actual dream? As you begin to see it happen, try to incorporate it into your upcoming dream plans. If you can't do this, at least try to stay focused on your WILD dive, perhaps by continuing to recite your mantra.

Bottom line: though what you describe sounds like a fascinating experience, I'm not sure it represents a good route to completing a WILD. Let me know if you prove me wrong!

Hi Sageous! Just a quick question about a matter that keeps bothering me: I've been practicing WILD for some time now but I can't seem to be able to get into the dream easily enough. For example, I'm in my bedroom taking a nap, I get to the point I hallucinate vividly (normally seeing the place with my eyes shut) and... I wake up. I can't stop it from happening, as soon as the thing gets real enough I get like a "mini shock" and intermediately everything fades.

I think I once wrote here, in this topic, about this same thing and you answered that maybe I gave too much attention to the HI. Since then I treat it as nothing more than noise, as you suggest. I think my problem now might not be so much about getting to the point I'm dreaming, but actually getting the dream to absorb me (if that makes any sense). I would say the real trouble is the "mini shock" I just wrote about. Hope you help me get around this, regards.

Hmm.

I think you might still have an attention problem, Eddydpyl, but this time it's a case of your unconscious or physical body paying attention to you!

What could be happening is that, when you reach a point where the dream should start, and your body should be asleep, your brain registers that you are still aware and reacts to this by deciding that maybe the rest of you ought to be awake as well. So it dutifully triggers your brain's reticular system and voila!, you snap awake. In a sense, it's not that you're not getting to your dream -- or it's not finding you -- but rather that your brain is blocking your path to the dream by accidentally waking you up due to a simple misunderstanding. This is not an uncommon problem, BTW.

This might sound like an insurmountable obstacle, but there are a few things you could try to get past it:

* First, and best, is to simply keep making WILD attempts and get your body used to your conscious presence at a time when it is not supposed to be. Eventually the rest of you will likely start working with you.

* You could try remaining still after that snap, and attempting to go back to sleep; sort of reacting to the snap with a bit of a DEILD.

* You can try working on forming the dream itself, perhaps from the HI that you are experiencing; maybe if there is more of a dream present before the snap, your brain will assume you're actually sleeping (also, the reticular wake-up will be a little easier to ignore if there's a show going on).

* Last, but definitely not least: don't think about the snap before it happens or when it happens (i.e., don't start listening for it when you're experiencing HI), as that will only make it worse.

I guess the tl;dr version of this is the standard: keep at it, stay calm, and give yourself time to work through this. If you're as far as you are, then this is just another step on the way.

Thanks for the reply. I do practice much of what you suggested but for the "forming the dream" part, which I have always avoided as I find it pretty difficult to get past the point of simply imagining stuff and starting to hallucinate (HI). Its normally easier for me to leave my brain do the scene creating work (though I do, when succeeded, start the dream in a dull place such as my bedroom).

Now that I think about it, it is pretty clear to me that the problem is about attention: When I start to vividly hallucinate I'm in a state of passive awareness which rapidly collapses as soon as I realize I'm progressing. My attention drifts rapidly to the scene and I try to pay attention to the details of it, all of this involuntarily of course. Not sure if this piece of info helps localize my problem, if it needs to.

^^ Oh! Well then we're back to my original advice: stop paying attention to the noise!

Though it seems involuntary, this attention you are paying to details is something you can control, simply by keeping your mind on the dream, or on your dream goals. This might be difficult for you (it sure is for me!), but it is worth the effort -- and repeated failed WILD attempts inherent in the task -- to learn to keep your mind on your dream and its goals, rather than let it wander on its own. Letting go of your goals will lead to things like FA's waking up, just plain NLD's, and general missed lucidity. Also, holding onto your goals might sidestep, or at least minimize, that time in dull places like your room.

Here's another thought about HI, which I think, but can't remember, is in the forming your dreams session of my WILD class: If your HI imagery starts to get fairly complex, or begins to occupy all your senses, you might be able to use it to construct a dream. In other words, if you can't get past the the imagery of HI, then stay with it, and let that imagery become your dream. You must do this with your dream or dream goals in mind, though, or else the HI will not form into anything, and you'll likely just wake up or eventually lose self-awareness and dream non-lucidly. ...Wait... did I just suggest that you pay attention to HI? Heresy perhaps, but sometimes you gotta break some rules to move ahead.

I guess the bottom line here is that, whether you're responding unconsciously to it or not, reacting to the noise seems to be what's holding you up. As you get better at ignoring it (or working with it, as it were), you should find that your unconscious will get better at ignoring it right along with you. And you get better at it by focusing not on what your unconscious wants you to focus on (the details during HI or early dream), but on what you want to focus on: the dream itself.

Ok, I think I've got it. Thanks for your time!

How do ADA and your Self-Awareness exercise stack up? I have been practicing them simultaneously, but I was wondering:
Does the all-day awareness of your body and your surroundings help - or disturb/hinder the self-awareness exercise? I really want to learn WILD but I've noticed significant progress with ADA so I don't want to give that up.

ADA and self-awareness are two very different things. Because of this, they can certainly be practiced simultaneously, or at least in rapid succession.

I personally do not see much sense in ramping up your natural awareness, which is what ADA does. Constant registration of your surroundings with no regard for the presence of your Self in it all could lead to distraction, or perhaps a little bit too much respect for the reality of those surroundings (not helpful in a dream). For instance, a mouse is a master at ADA, but I doubt it has many lucid dreams.

However, if you can combine the attention involved in ADA with a strong sense of self, then ADA could prove a valuable tool... so if you're already heavily involved in an ADA regimen, I would suggest you keep it up, and even use it to complement your RRC's and any other self-awareness work.

This was a very brief response, but if you're interested in my more expanded (and hopefully not contradictory) opinion of ADA, you might want to check out a thread I started last year, ADA:Right or Wrong for Lucidity?; just try to ignore the petty squabble I got into with King Yoshi, the term's protective inventor! Also, if you manage to read it through to its end, I think you will see that even Yoshi agrees that ADA will not bring about lucidity by itself, that some sense of Self must be included in the process.

I see. Sorry for the late response.
I will use the focused mind that I apply through ADA to build self-awareness, focusing less on details around me and more on the me.
Therefore I have changed my signature to just 'awareness'. Thanks!