Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

^^ My primary tip, Djaxup, is to suggest that you consider this thought:

It is okay to WILD without any noise.

WILD is all about falling asleep without losing waking-life self-awareness, or staying awake while your body falls asleep. It is not about not about experiencing HI, or REM atonia, or dreamlets, or movement, or vibrations, or whatever else is discussed on these forums.

I for one very rarely feel any of the stuff listed above, and yet I have had thousands of WILDs. The noise really isn't important at all; try not to look for it, and definitely try not to judge the success or quality of your WILD attempt on whether you experienced HI or vibrations/movement, etc. Yes, those things can and will happen, but they are merely milestones on your way to the dream, they are not integral to your WILD dive, and certainly aren't required.

If you are falling asleep fast, that is a good thing -- as long as you maintain self-awareness throughout that fall.

Next, there is nothing wrong with falling asleep and waking up in a dream. Yes, that would turn your WILD attempt into a DILD, but who cares? A lucid dream is a lucid dream; how you got there does not matter, as long as you did.

Finally, there is more to DEILD than just holding still. It is very helpful to realize you are beginning to wake up, and start your DEILD before your body finishes the wake-up process. Also, you should be focusing on returning to the dream you just left (or perhaps into a planned new dream), and do so with strong self-awareness. I go into this in slightly more detail in the DEILD session of the WILD class to which this thread is attached, if you're interested.

I don't know how i can fall asleep while being aware. This is the only obstacle i have during all of my attempts..
My only successful WILD was accidental and my anchor was being worried, that anchor is not reproduceable though. Please, how do i sleep while being aware? What anchor is good?

^^ Well, given that the very definition of WILD is falling asleep without losing your waking-life self-awareness, I guess the best answer is to suggest that you take the DVA WILD class to which this thread is attached. It might cover what you need. There is even a class on mantras (aka, anchors) that might help.

This was probably not the answer that you were looking for, but some questions have no short answer.

Good luck!

Thanks, good info as usual. After reading the DEILD post I have a feeling I know what I have to do to make it work. I will report back.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Well, given that the very definition of WILD is falling asleep without losing your waking-life self-awareness, I guess the best answer is to suggest that you take the DVA WILD class to which this thread is attached. It might cover what you need. There is even a class on mantras (aka, anchors) that might help.

This was probably not the answer that you were looking for, but some questions have no short answer.

Good luck!

Alright, i'll see what i can do.
After posting the question i tried going for a nap WILD, which basically ended in me falling asleep before i saw anything interesting.
Note that i started using the counting anchor then threw it away and starting thinking randomly.

^^ Though I still suggest you check out the course, even before you try to WILD again, here are a couple more thoughts:

First, there is nothing interesting to see except the dream. Try not to look for things to happen during your WILD, and just stay focused on getting to the dream.

Also, try to maintain your anchor/mantra. Throwing away your anchor is about equal to throwing away your WILD, from a focus point of view.

Hey Sageous,

So in the very first lesson you stress the importance of self awareness. I also have a friend who is really good at DILD. He has never visited this forum or this tutorial and on a whim how his self awareness was what allowed him to become lucid so consistently. When I read the section on self awareness I had a hard time really understanding exactly what it feels like to be aware. Maybe I'm overthinking this but I can't seem to understand the idea of being self aware. Do you have any other insights on this?

Thanks!

^^ Hmm. I've been asked hundreds of questions on this forum, with many repeats, but I think this is the first time I've been asked what it feels like to be self-aware... not that there's anything wrong with that!

For me the feeling of self-awareness probably covers a few different sensations:

First, the feeling of self-awareness is a bit counter-intuitive: when you are self-aware, you feel a stronger connection with your local reality. You feel your own presence in your environment, in social situations, etc., and you know that you are a participant significantly interacting with reality itself. In a sense, you feel involved, and that involvement feels important. This is the primary feeling for WILD and LD'ing, BTW, because when in a dream you are able to feel that involvement and can also understand that that involvement is not with physical reality, but with a world of your own making, a world that in total is You.

Next, the obvious feeling of self-awareness is the classic sensation of "I am." Much of our lives (waking and dreaming) are spent in a sort of zombie mode, where we go through the motions of daily life without giving them much attention or thought. When self-aware, you realize that You are present, that you exist, and that feeling can be quite exhilarating.

Finally, the presence of self-awareness makes you much more conscious of what you are saying or doing. For instance, you might be ion an argument with someone, and you would choose to bite your lip before saying something that might hurt your opponent's feelings; something you wouldn't do while in zombie-mode.

I guess all three of these feelings are about the same, and are only aspects of the same thing: the feeling of self-awareness is one of knowing you exist, and that you are deeply connected with your local reality.

One other point: yes, you are very likely over-thinking this. There really is no need to wonder what it feels like to be self-aware, because that is secondary to the actual condition of self-awareness. When you are able to tap it on purpose, you will know that you are self-aware, and whatever you happen to feel at the time is secondary. In other words, work on your self-awareness to the point of achieving it, and you will not need to know how it feels.

Another tip is to practice RRC's regularly and sincerely, as it is a simple exercise meant to ignite self-awareness, whether you know how it feels or not.

That's all I have on the spur of the moment; I hope it helps.

Hello now posting here
i´ve posted this in my workbook to i hope its okay? Or should i next time just link it?
however:

Tonight i´ve had a short LD after SSILD WILD. This time i would say it was a real WILD... This time it was pretty exhausting because i didn´t want to fall asleep unconscious right away so i stayed up a bit longer ( about 40min, unintentionally, i wrote down a dream which seem to be a bit longer...) and than did again my SSILD voodoo followed by WILD. This time i count from 100 down and visualized the nummers (which worked pretty well) i noticed here and there i was distracted but because of the visualization it was easier to find back where i stoped counting. after each number i thought "i am dreaming" dont know if it is necessary next time i may try to just count. But now like i thought it would be i was more conscious and anxious not to fall asleep unconscious and so i managed after all to hit 1... and dumb thing i think i kind of got excited because what do you do if you hit zero xD... suddenly it got to warm under my blanket and i needed to put out my arm. i noticed more and more often i was somewhere in between and i saw for example my browser with a tap open dreamview or even heard a distand voice for a short period of time. but everytime i get an visual i "twich" and was a little more awake than before... i then tried counting again but always the same effect. i was to focused on realizing the moment i enter the dreamworld... i´ve then tried to imagine while counting to swing forth and back in my bed and i think i moved my eyes left and right which kind of worked too but again to focused when pictures or thoughts come up. i´ve tried to see through my closed eyes and to levitate in my bed but everything was to forced... i´ve tried it because i´ve read somewhere you need to see a dream where you can enter...
i then decided to just try to fall asleep again so i turned on my other side and did one or two more SSILD cycles. after some time wanting to sleep but still not giving up for 100% i was somehow really awake so i thought maby to do an RC and somewhat i finaly was in my LD....FINALLY^^
I got up and did some RC´s. and thought i would take my blanked and try to feel it intensly so my dream got stable. i then decided to jump out of my window and start exploring but everytime i want to jump i get scared "What if i´m not dreaming and really jump out of the fukin window?" so i did some more RC and looked around for proof. i tried btw thumb through palm for the first time. it was funny because i didnt trained it before so i had no expectation how it should look like. i pushed and pushed and somhow my skin everted on the other side and it was pretty obvious but i still catched me thinkin hm is this enough or is it still normal xD but enough of the RC´s i then was sure enough and jumped out of the window
i tried to jump on a bus but i didnt work so i run to the busstop but the thing started to ride away i run alongside and opened the door and jumped in. the busdriver was kind of complaning but i ignored him. (he should have just wait for a sec ) i then decided to talk to an DC (indended it before because i wanted to see what happen and i wanted to ask if she/he has something for me). i run thru the bus which now is a traffic streetcar and i want to decide to whom to talk. some faces dont look nice some look out of the window so i dont see them. after some steps everyone is turning their face away from me so i snap with my finger so they look. and it even worked . i see three girls, two of them don´t look friendly but one seems nice and i think i saw her before. i sit next to her and i start with: Hi. and she replies with a hi and how are you. i say fine bla bla.
after some time the image gets dark an i catch myself thinkin about my real body and i think i hear my roomate so this is the reason i wake up... in fact my roommate stil wasn´t up so i just tried to explain myself why i loose control instead doing something against it... i did one attempt by asking here if she has something for me. the visual gets clear again for like 3 seconds and then i hear her just saying something and i have a false awake. i kind of know but i have gum in my mouth what really irritates me so i loose my lucidity i then wake up for real and move imidiatly because i has the irresistable urge to strech... damn no DEILD this time
but still i am happy and stand up right away
i started my attempt at 7 am and woke up at 8:45 --> LD was max some minutes so damn i was way to long awake trying...

any suggestions how to get faster in transition to Dreamworld without loosing consciousness? and maby i was already long time dreaming (i dont think so but...) how to find it out faster? i mean doing everytime right away a RC would throw me back if i am not dreaming yet...
and i think its time to read some more about dreamstability and control... third lucid in a row not that vivid and long like i would like to...

^^ Just so you don't think I'm ignoring you (or any other posters), I'm away from my machines for most of the next few days, so please be patient and I'll respond when I can.

Originally Posted by RelaxAndDream

any suggestions how to get faster in transition to Dreamworld without loosing consciousness?

Actually, your transition to the dreamworld seemed pretty speedy; it seemed that it was your body falling asleep that took a while. You might try relaxing a bit and not try so many things as the dream approaches (i.e., if your experience some HI, like that DV Browser or the voices, just let them slide by peacefully instead of feeling a need to do something). Just think about your dream, hang onto your anchor/mantra, and let your body fall asleep.

was your and maby i was already long time dreaming (i dont think so but...) how to find it out faster? i mean doing everytime right away a RC would throw me back if i am not dreaming yet...

If you are doing a WILD successfully, you will know when you begin dreaming, so there is no need to find out faster; you probably won't even need to do a RC to confirm. I suggest that perhaps you hold off doing RC's at all, and don't make "finding out" you are in a LD a priority of your WILD dive. Again, you will know when you are dreaming; be patient and just let it happen. And if you think you might not be dreaming while standing at your window, leave through a door; wondering if you are in waking life during a dream is a sure way to lose lucidity.

and i think its time to read some more about dreamstability and control... third lucid in a row not that vivid and long like i would like to...

Perhaps, and I understand what you are saying, but keep in mind that lucidity does not equal vividness. You can be highly lucid in the dullest of dreams. I would suggest that you hold off concern about this stuff until after you've gained some more experience and are more familiar with the experience itself. It might not be time yet to add stability and control techniques to the pile of things you are already doing. That said, you might be able to make your LD's more interesting by setting specific goals about what you wish to do when lucid.

Hello Sageous, thanks for answering.

it seemed that it was your body falling asleep that took a while

How can you tell? i´ve always had the feeling my body is relaxed pretty fast/good... and i thought HI and so on can only start after my body is away already? i had the feeling my mind is to awake but i think the real obstacle was indeed like you said the noticing the HI and thinking i now need to do something so the dream starts. this time i was a little more chillaxed i think

Yesterday i did a new dive like you call it and i kind of was successful again. I did some DEILDS and woke up alot so i can´t tell exactly the chronology of events... But i will try:

i again did SSILD first then started my WILD.

[i tried the day before yesterday with just a mantra: do remember (that you lie in bed and dream) i started with the whole mantra and after a while shorted it to just do remember because i thought i know the deeper meaning so i dont need to repeat the whole sentence. i did not count. my WILD failed because i just fall asleep after some time and dont even had a DILD. but at this night i got at 3am to bed and was tired so maby just a wrong day to concentrate on something new. (even though i did my WBTB after 6h of sleep)]

so this time i swapped again to my old method with counting and "i dream" after each number. this time i started again at 1 and not at 100. I think i was a little bit more relaxed than the last times. I often lost focus of counting but i noticed it quite quick (i think)
After some time i saw someone ring a doorbell in a dream and i opened and it was my dad (it was one of my goals to meet him and talk to him in my dream) so i think this might be a successful WILD. But after opening the door and seeing him i woke up... doh... nevermind i lay still and kept on trying. interestingly next thing i remember same apartment but i lay on the ground and try to fall asleep in another room. my roommate tells me to lay down on the bed, i do and tell him the blanket is not big enough for the two of us... --> lost my lucidity... I think i got it back after a short time because i was more concious. (here not sure about the chronology) i then stood up i think and got into the kitchen to eat something to stabilize --> dumb thing is i didnt thought of what i wanted to eat so in the frigde was nothing usefull and i wanted to eat... i remember that my other roommate enter the kitchen and i did a backflip just because i wanted to show him i can.... woke up/dream got unstable after i did it... i felt a little unsecure because i nearly hit the ceiling light :/
same apartment again: i wake up in my "room" (looked different because the whole apartment kind of was not mine at all) do a RC and am lucid again. this time i run through the hallway and want to look through the window (another goal of mine was to see a nice sky) window was too small to see up so i opend and saw funny people on the ground with animalcostumes. nevermind so i go into the kitchen and want to burn something (and again a goal of mine was burn something of me that matters to me). It kind of hit the goal because it was nothing of my possession but i still managed to find a lighter and burn some folder. they didnt burn that well though so i throw a dishtowel on it so it might burn better...lets say it could be a nicer fire but still it burned. i did everything on the ceramic glass cooktop (so nothing else burn up i think...) someone came in and now we want to leave the flat. while they or me put on there shoes i remembered another goal to let something float. i first did it with my hand then i remembered i shouldnt use telekinese so i put my hand down and did it again. it worked without problems. we then go down the stairs and are outside i see a parking lot and i want to drive (i had a goal that i want to drive a car and crash into everything openminded). i wanted to take the bike and not the car but i needed to turn it around because it was in the wrong direction. i needed some attempts because there was not much space to turn... i think i got nervous and again the dream faded... this time i woke up for real and was to awake to dive in again.

now interesting things that happened too:
-i must have had a false awakening because i dreamed that i felt that i have dental braces on (like the last time i had a gum in my mouth dont know what this is all about) but i can´t tell when this happend
-i know that i turned after some of my DEILDS on my other side and just started counting again for another WILD because i thought why not and i think it worked. maby it was the one i woke up in my bed and was instant lucid but i can´t tell anymore... but nice one i can turn and keep on going my WILD/DEILD as long as i dont strech or think too much!?
- my goals btw where from here: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ilization.html i´ve read it before you answered.

so overall i am happy because even if i wake up alot and loose it had enough time to do some things i intended. maby you can tell me what you see but i think:

-i have not really problems in remembering my goals (what is this called then? Prospective memory?)
-kind of get the hang not to pay to much attention to falling asleep (but needs more tries to tell for sure). the first dive was catchier then the rest everytime i woke up then and i started counting again it was way faster and i had less problems with the noise
-still think in schemes and bounded to RL experiences because i did the fire on the cooker and not on the table for example or didnt turn the bike by my mind or think of another way to turn it but get insecure about it (for a brief moment i even thought if the machine might be to heavy for me because it was huge and i dont even have a licence for that but this thought i could manage and it was kind of no problem to move the machine)
-i at some point was in SP i wanted to move my arms and it felt like i did but nothing happend. no problem i thought one thing less to care about, closed my eyes and DEILD.... dont know again if it just was a dream but i dont think about SP at all before so i think i had no intention so no reason to dream about it
- i remember trying spinning for stabilization two times maby this dream. once it more or less worked once i woke up from it again (or had a FA dont know)
-i think i need to think way more about my goals and have a more precise expectation what i want to dream and what i want to do because i think everytime i just don´t know exactly what to do i get nervous and the dream gets unstable but it goes hand in hand with beeing pretty fast insecure in general in my LD (i think like having sex for the first time xD). i thought about it a day before and come to the conclusion that i dont really have THE reason why i try to LD... i just find it interesting and want to use it maby to find a dreammentor or to learn more about me (and intigrate my egos) and to see what is all possible but i think this reasons are to unspecific so when i get lucid i just dont know what to do. the time i had my goals in my mind it seemed pretty funny and stable. also with the WILD dive itself seemed to work better because i wanted to see my dad somehow and so i saw right away i was there and not maby dreaming about beeing in my room still laying in my bed and trying to WILD (like i thought the post before)!?
-my goals i worked on where form this thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ilization.html i think of work on them after one another. or do you think this is not that a good idea?


do you have a hint how to handle my immature insecurity and nervousness? i thought about another goal i want to achieve is to tell myself what my actual status is in a LD: in my bed, dreaming and creator of this reality i am in. does something like this work or does it wake me up because again i think about my body? like your mind explodes because you see the real matrix xD
i also thought about meditating in a dream but again i dont know if it would work just like that when i sit down and close my eyes? doesnt closing eyes or focusing on something to long makes the dream unstable?
or do you say it is just a matter of practice to have the hang of it? but even if what would be a good practice to firm my dreamworld willpower?


dumb thing is i will start my diplomawork tomorrow... so no more practicing WILD during the week. only on weekends and hopefully not partying to much because then again i will even lose a day more :/

so maby i will look for some good MILD techniques... but even then without WBTB it will be a dryspell? or should i just be optimistic?

Edit: last one and i think this is a "stupid" one but: while WILDING i _should_ think about a dream/visualize where i want to go not just wait for a picture to come up? kind of visualize a goal and how i do it? but not right away from the beginning but when i see that i start to get here and there short HI so i can kick of the dream?


again a lot of questions... sorry for this

Thank you Sageoues - I see yes,I should reply here on this thread,sorry about that!
Also will look into the tutorial on mantra that you pointed out to me, cheers.
All Your input is sincerely appreciated as always
Am doing my best to play around with wbtb times I order to get more experience it's tricky to find sweet spot when most days I have to get up at the same time of around 6.45 am - but I am able to be shifting wbtb time of execution around as some nights I can get to bed as early as 9pm - any suggestions with this?

RelaxAndDream:

I know I'm not addressing everything in your post, but here are a few thoughts:

Originally Posted by RelaxAndDream

it seemed that it was your body falling asleep that took a while

How can you tell? i´ve always had the feeling my body is relaxed pretty fast/good... and i thought HI and so on can only start after my body is away already? i had the feeling my mind is to awake but i think the real obstacle was indeed like you said the noticing the HI and thinking i now need to do something so the dream starts. this time i was a little more chillaxed i think

Actually, things like HI, dreamlets, and odd physical sensations are occurring while your body is balancing on the fence between wake and sleep; you are not fully asleep when you experience HI.

In my opinion, your mind can never be too awake to LD (lucidity is, after all, defined by the wakefulness of your mind), so don't be concerned about that -- however, don't let your wakeful mind interfere with your body as it falls asleep: make your it is your mind that is awake, and not your physical brain.

Also, you do not need to do anything for the dream to start; it will do so just fine on its own. I'm not sure what i said, but that was not what I meant. Try not to ever feel like you have to do something during a WILD, as this sort of thinking will only amplify the insecurity you mentioned, especially if you either can't remember what you are "supposed to do."

i again did SSILD first then started my WILD.

SSILD is actually a form of WILD, and because of this successfully completing a SSILD should have landed you in a LD. I'm just mentioning this because you might want to double-check your SSILD technique, as it does not seem to be something that needs to be done before a WILD (since it is a WILD doing so seems a bit redundant).

-i know that i turned after some of my DEILDS on my other side and just started counting again for another WILD because i thought why not and i think it worked. maby it was the one i woke up in my bed and was instant lucid but i can´t tell anymore... but nice one i can turn and keep on going my WILD/DEILD as long as i dont strech or think too much!?

Sure. Though it is best to hold still as you emerge from your last dream so that you can DEILD back into it, it is possible to move a bit, and even open your eyes fro a moment. It is a very good idea to avoid wake-up activities like stretching and thinking too much (if by that you mean thinking about waking-life problems or activities).

-i have not really problems in remembering my goals (what is this called then? Prospective memory?)

Prospective memory is essentially remembering to remember so yes, I suppose this is prospective memory.

-still think in schemes and bounded to RL experiences because i did the fire on the cooker and not on the table for example or didnt turn the bike by my mind or think of another way to turn it but get insecure about it (for a brief moment i even thought if the machine might be to heavy for me because it was huge and i dont even have a licence for that but this thought i could manage and it was kind of no problem to move the machine)

Your recognizing that you are thinking this way in dreams is a very good thing, because it is a sign that you are stepping further way from the "default" non-lucid condition of believing the dreamworld must work exactly as the waking-world works --perhaps you are already showing signs of lucid maturity?

I would suggest that you give things like this some thought during waking-life dreamwork. Perhaps you can set some goals for dreams that completely defy the physical laws of waking life, like breathing underwater or a dream scene with no gravity; this way it might be easier to assure yourself that it doesn't matter how big the bike is, or where the fire can be set.

-i at some point was in SP i wanted to move my arms and it felt like i did but nothing happened. no problem i thought one thing less to care about, closed my eyes and DEILD.... dont know again if it just was a dream but i dont think about SP at all before so i think i had no intention so no reason to dream about it

That is an excellent attitude! Try not to lose it!

-i think i need to think way more about my goals and have a more precise expectation what i want to dream and what i want to do because i think everytime i just don´t know exactly what to do i get nervous and the dream gets unstable but it goes hand in hand with beeing pretty fast insecure in general in my LD (i think like having sex for the first time xD). i thought about it a day before and come to the conclusion that i dont really have THE reason why i try to LD... i just find it interesting and want to use it maby to find a dreammentor or to learn more about me (and intigrate my egos) and to see what is all possible but i think this reasons are to unspecific so when i get lucid i just dont know what to do. the time i had my goals in my mind it seemed pretty funny and stable. also with the WILD dive itself seemed to work better because i wanted to see my dad somehow and so i saw right away i was there and not maby dreaming about beeing in my room still laying in my bed and trying to WILD (like i thought the post before)!?

Yes, goals are extremely important, especially early in your LD practice, and pretty much for the reasons you already said. A little specificity is almost an anchor during a WILD: If you know where you want to be come dreamtime, and can focus on that thought throughout the WILD, you have a better chance of lucidly winding up there.

do you have a hint how to handle my immature insecurity and nervousness?

Just one hint: practice, practice, practice. The more WILDs you attempt, whether successful or not, the more secure you become in your skills, your techniques, and above all your own mind. Just keep practicing, and do so with a positive, "next time I will do better" attitude, and you will find eventually that insecurity and nervousness are no longer problems (indeed, you likely won't even remember that they were problems!).

i thought about another goal i want to achieve is to tell myself what my actual status is in a LD: in my bed, dreaming and creator of this reality i am in. does something like this work or does it wake me up because again i think about my body? like your mind explodes because you see the real matrix xD

I don't think that setting a goal of telling yourself your actual physical status during a LD is really necessary; you need only remember that your physical body is somewhere else than your dream body, peacefully asleep in bed. The same goes for remembering that this dreamworld is all your creation, indeed it is all You, but setting a goal to do this might simply lead to a NLD about doing this. Instead, learn to just remember these things during the dream; make them a standard component of your dreaming posture rather than something you think about during your WILD. RRC's, BTW are a very handy tool for developing this component!

Oh, and fear not: your mind will not explode and there is no real matrix; just you. Thinking about your sleeping body during a dream is actually an excellent tool for self-awareness and stability, and not the other way around (no matter what you read on these forums).

i also thought about meditating in a dream but again i dont know if it would work just like that when i sit down and close my eyes? doesnt closing eyes or focusing on something to long makes the dream unstable?

Meditation in a dream can be very interesting, but you might consider waiting until you have accumulated some more LD'ing experience before you go there, because it requires some extra stability skills, along with the confident knowledge that no, closing your dreambody eyes or focusing on something for a long time will only make the dream unstable if you allow them to do so (just like remembering your sleeping body, BTW).

or do you say it is just a matter of practice to have the hang of it?

Again, yes.

but even if what would be a good practice to firm my dreamworld willpower?

That will be up to you. Ultimately, though, your experience will define your willpower and confidence in the dreams, so the best practice is simply practice: Do your daytime dreamwork (i.e., RC, RRC's, set and think about goals, and develop your fundamentals), positively attempt WILDs whether the last one (or ten) was successful or not, develop your MILD skills (handy for DILD and WILD/DIELD), and always know that you will be lucid tonight. Stick to all this, and eventually your dreamworkd willpower will be a given.

dumb thing is i will start my diplomawork tomorrow... so no more practicing WILD during the week. only on weekends and hopefully not partying to much because then again i will even lose a day more :/
so maby i will look for some good MILD techniques... but even then without WBTB it will be a dryspell? or should i just be optimistic?

This may actually be a good thing, so be optimistic. I have found that WILD attempts work much better when you schedule them. If you have a specific day and time (like a weekend morning) to plan for and anticipate your WILD, your chances of having one should increase.

Also, if looking into MILD results from your schedule change, then that is good too: The techniques that make up MILD (like managing prospective memory) are very useful for DILD and WILD, so it will be helpful to know them.

Edit: last one and i think this is a "stupid" one but: while WILDING i _should_ think about a dream/visualize where i want to go not just wait for a picture to come up? kind of visualize a goal and how i do it? but not right away from the beginning but when i see that i start to get here and there short HI so i can kick of the dream?

Not so stupid, I think: While WILDing, you can feel free to think about a dream and visualize it any time: during the dive, before any HI shows up, during WBTB, as you fall asleep the night before, during the day of the the night before, etc (I think you get my point!). There is no need to wait for anything, and there is certainly no need to wait for HI for any reason, including starting to visualize.

again a lot of questions... sorry for this

It sure was! i must off a bit of a warning, though, in that I really don't have time to properly address these long posts, so I hope you'll forgive if my responses are shorter next time...

Originally Posted by Patience108

Am doing my best to play around with wbtb times I order to get more experience it's tricky to find sweet spot when most days I have to get up at the same time of around 6.45 am - but I am able to be shifting wbtb time of execution around as some nights I can get to bed as early as 9pm - any suggestions with this?

Just one, and one I think I may have mentioned above: consider setting aside a specific time and day to attempt your WILD, and make it a time and day in which you are not constrained by your waking-life schedule and obligations.

WILD's work best when you have an open schedule for sleep, have nowhere specific to be, nothing specific to do in waking-life immediately after your attempt, and are not obliged to be roused by an alarm. Even if this means attempting a dive just once a week or less, it might ultimately bring you more success than you may have had trying every night. This is not only the case because that "sweet spot" will be much more identifiable, but because you can spend much more waking-life time preparing for your dive.

That said, it still doesn't hurt to practice your WILD dive every night, perhaps even with WBTB's (preferably after a minmum of 5 hrs' sleep), but save the real effort for when you can be fully dedicated to it.

That sounds like excellent advise and helps me to stay relaxed about my attempts but keep focus

Do you have what you would call an actual routine or practice you do each evening befor bed or at other times - I am aware there are times in the day to bring intention very clear,and evening is one of those times ... If you have an actual amount of time you sit down for and or if you could go threw the process of what you do would be great, cheers if you don't do this but know of others who do please let me know so I can ask them more about this sort of prep practice for LD

^^ My actual routine is generally this*: First, I leave every Wednesday free to do WILD's (I can do that because I am retired). I spend much of Tuesday evening thinking about my plans for the next day's session. I stay up a bit later than usual, to about 2am, still thinking dreamy thoughts, maybe even watching a "dreamy" movie. I go to sleep thinking about and attempting to visualize where I want to be the next morning (I say "attempting" because I am lousy at visualization). I then wake up at around 8:00. I do a WBTB for at least 30 minutes, then settle down to my WILD.

This routine is of course on top of regular day work, which includes RC's, RRC's, much active thought about LD'ing in general, and review of my specific plans for Wednesday.

Also, the Wednesday routine is in addition to doing WILD's during weekend naps, and laying down every night with the full intention to LD, just in case there is a DILD in my stars.



* Note: should you find something about my routine in the hundreds of posts I've made on these threads that doesn't match this, that's fine: my routine is quite fluid, always adjusting slightly to changes in attitude, schedules, and my own physical state... yours should be as well.

That's pretty late you go to bed did you have to look hard for this late thing to find it was your sweet spot? Or do you always go to bed realy late anyway so in that way finding it quite easily?

On my day off I am wondering wether to try to stay up realy late to give something like that a try - but I don't usualy go to bed late... I could get a tv put in my sleeping room and watch a late movie... Or do you think it's better at first just to go with my usual sleep times?

When you say dreamy thoughts you mean keeping your mind on LD dream topic + visualisation intention etc?

When you say spending much of the evening befor planning, do you mean sitting back seeing your plan come to life ... Maybe doing small sessions of visualisation and RRC etc? what is most of the evening ; a few hours on and off?

or do you write down exacts for your plan and then vis? How do you create your plan... For example my plans are simple like executing a wild and when Lucid Finding a tree to climb to see a view.. Should I sit down and plan this from the very start , if so how - I.e beginning from when I get relaxed into bed?

Dreamy Moovies are like Matrix or oh I don't know many - which others would you watch?

I just realised its Wednesday hope you had a good one!

Originally Posted by Patience108

That's pretty late you go to bed did you have to look hard for this late thing to find it was your sweet spot? Or do you always go to bed realy late anyway so in that way finding it quite easily?

I had to look a little bit, but that looking was more of a whittling-down of the 12-14 hrs of sleep I used to require for LD's (35 yrs ago) to a fairly fine-tuned "WBTB after 5-6hrs' sleep with the LD's happening during morning hours," because I've found that, for me, my LD's work best in the morning, after my night's sleep has been completed (more in a sec). Also, I do tend to go to bed late, but usually around midnight to 1am, so I didn't have to look very hard anyway.

On my day off I am wondering wether to try to stay up realy late to give something like that a try - but I don't usualy go to bed late... I could get a tv put in my sleeping room and watch a late movie... Or do you think it's better at first just to go with my usual sleep times?

I think you shouldn't mess too much with your natural sleep cycle; in other words, if you go to bed early, don't force yourself to stay up really late.

I think the real target here is to have your WBTB occur after you've taken care of your general sleep requirements, which in my mind is sometime after around 5 to 6 hrs' sleep. What you do not want to do is cut your "required" sleep cycle into pieces (i.e. doing a WBTB after 3-4 hrs' sleep, or long before your normal wake-up time in the morning). If you can do this without staying up terribly late, that's just fine. By the same token, though, if you are able to add hours of sleep to your nights' sleep, and can do a WBTB in the morning, that is even better. I guess the bottom line here is that you try not to disrupt your regular sleep schedule too much (if at all) by attaching your WBTB and WILD attempt to its very end...if you can go to bed at 9pm, then awaken at, say, 5 or 6am, and still manage to go back to sleep, then you can have a good night's sleep on your normal schedule and still have room in your sleep cycle for WILD simply by adding to it (of course, that means scheduling a day when you can sleep those extra hours).

When you say dreamy thoughts you mean keeping your mind on LD dream topic + visualisation intention etc?

Yes, as long as part of that "etc." is remembering the dreams from which I just awoke, as this seems to keep me attached to my dreamworld while awake.

When you say spending much of the evening befor planning, do you mean sitting back seeing your plan come to life ... Maybe doing small sessions of visualisation and RRC etc? what is most of the evening ; a few hours on and off?

Pretty much, though not as much visualization as I would like (because, again, I'm bad at it). I think it could be called a sort of loose construction project in my head, where I review my goals and work out what I anticipate doing to achieve them. This is not as dry as it sounds, because much of that construction is very exciting, and helps build expectation. Funny thing, though: what happens in the LD itself rarely resembles what I planned, because I invariably find a different way to approach my goals during the dream! And yet I still plan, contemplate, and get excited about those goals for most of the night before dream day.

All that thought is generally back-burner stuff, though, done while going through my usual Tuesday night routines, watching TV, reading, etc, though things intensify quite a bit at bedtime during the hour or so it takes me to fall asleep. "Most of the Night" varies from week to week, I think in general I'm giving my lucid plans attention for at least several hours, with that attention growing as bedtime nears.

or do you write down exacts for your plan and then vis?

Nope. Never. Dreaming is not an exact science, and writing down plans can lead to a sort of documentation of exactly what must happen, which will lead to disappointment later. Better to stay fluid and let your imagination wander among your goals, giving your dreaming mind ample fuel for the dreams.

How do you create your plan... For example my plans are simple like executing a wild and when Lucid Finding a tree to climb to see a view.. Should I sit down and plan this from the very start , if so how - I.e beginning from when I get relaxed into bed?

My plans these days are sort of an evolution of past goals and their resultant dreams; generally very long-term stuff that probably doesn't matter much here. Essentially the goals you set can be whatever you want them to be, and the relevant planning can go on all night for even the simplest of goals. For instance, let's say your goal is to climb a tree and simply look around: you can spend hours imagining that tree and its placement in your dream scene, and how you will go about finding it (or forming it), and even more time imagining what you might see from that tree or (better yet) wondering what surprises you will discover from your perch. In the end your planning is not about specifically designing your dreams or your goals, but about building up anticipation for the manifestation of your goals, and that anticipation need not be too specific.

Also, I recommend that you do not include executing a WILD in those plans, lest you offer incentive to your dreaming mind to provide you with an NLD about executing a WILD. Just assume that your WILD will go just fine, and keep your goals related to the dream itself.

Dreamy Movies are like Matrix or oh I don't know many - which others would you watch?

Hmm. There are so few, and yet I have such a hard time remembering them! I think there are a couple of threads on DV that list them, if you are willing to suffer a search, but here's an off-the-cuff list of some that I remember, in order of preference:

What Dreams May Come
Avatar
Paprika
Vanilla Sky
The Matrix
A Nightmare on Elm Street
The Science of Sleep
Stay
The Last Wave
Waking Life
Dreamscape
eXistenz
The Black Swan

...Notice I left off Inception, because the misinformation it fosters tends to outweigh the cool dream scenery. Also, A Nightmare on Elm Street is a great dreaming movie, but maybe not the best thing to watch just before dreamtime

I just realised its Wednesday hope you had a good one!

Pretty good, thanks!

Thanks That's realy helpful - I am not much good at Visualisation so I am focusing more on the "Seeing it and experiencing it through my minds eye" I think it worked to get me a couple of Totm. ..But they lacked clarity and the space felt very small - I think this is why climbing the tree and seeing a view is proving challenging for me - I had no idea one had to literally create the "scene " in order to LD - it's a huge learning experience hope I make it through to the big time LD's one day!

^^ There's no need to literally create the scene in your LD's; if I implied that myself, I didn't mean to.

Though you can do plenty of creating when lucid, you can certainly still rely on your dreaming mind to do the creative heavy lifting for you. Above all, creating the scene in order to LD is absolutely not necessary; you can be fully lucid in a dream without creating a thing. This BTW is why expectation/intention is so important in LD'ing: by building expectation throughout the day you are fueling your unconscious/dreaming mind with the things you would like to dream about so that it will create them come dreamtime for you to both recognize and enjoy.

Sorry if it was me who misled you about this, and if it wasn't me, be sure to tell whoever told you that you "must literally create the scene in order to be lucid" that they are wrong.

Thanks, no body told me this its just what I started "picking up" probably my own mind complicating things a little, no big problem just me getting to grips with the nessecities

Because things were a bit cramped in my first lds where I acompliched tasks - I started assuming one has to incubate everything about the scene in order to experience it...Silly really
I think I understand that's not how it works and that ones mind ( memory, self awareness etc) can and does actualy kick in showing you that you are totaly able to experience and create anything you like or not in LD's - I just need experience now - thanks for putting this straight tho - its alot todo with me getting to grips with the Power of my own mind susspect

so is it like this :
It's the intention and expectation that fuels the LD and any kind of visualisation or incubation that one does it is clear that its through intention and expectation,those 2,that helps drive one towards the LD - in creating expectation and driving intention the LD is " going to happen!" ... that's the point your making right?

Not forgetting the Fundementals and getting them clear is what this is about for me here I think! ie - the visualisation and incubation is a part of the intention and expectation part not " creating a scene"- that happens once lucidity is there as one has full self awareness so can do or not do, create or not create as one wishes!

Sorry what's btw it's not on the ak list?

Originally Posted by Patience108

so is it like this :
It's the intention and expectation that fuels the LD and any kind of visualisation or incubation that one does it is clear that its through intention and expectation,those 2,that helps drive one towards the LD - in creating expectation and driving intention the LD is " going to happen!" ... that's the point your making right?

Right!

Sorry what's btw it's not on the ak list?

BTW = By The Way...it figures that the only acronym I use is obsolete!

Hi sageous,
Im using DILD as my induction method right now. But i just had several very short LDs these months. When i realized that i was dreaming , usually i rub my hands, but very often i wake up after that or went back to normal dream. I tried SAT for increase my awareness, but SAT needs times, i meant i shd stop and need more than 3 minutes to check everything.

So, after i read about your Reverse RC, im thinking to change my awareness exercise to Reverse RC, is it okay?

sorry for my english, its not my daily language, thx btw