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    Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

    1. #576
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      ^^ Well, though I still think that, as I said already, in the context of this class "catching REM" is still a valid, workable term with no one being misled in any real way, I'll give your suggestion some thought. Thanks for your input, regardless!
      Last edited by Sageous; 08-17-2020 at 05:14 AM.

    2. #577
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      From some of your posts I get that: it's a bad time to attempt WILD during a night's sleep and practice is very important for WILD.
      So when I go to bed at night, is it a good idea to attempt WILD just to practice? These days I am trying this and failing after some point, it's like I am trying to relax and suddenly I wake up at morning.
      Will those failed WILD attempts help me in future?

      And one more question, about waking at night:
      I know alarms shock me and sometimes they even make me forget my dreams just in a second, but I also know that I can't remember my wakings at night without alarm. I mean at past I've set multiple alarms for a few days, for WBTB and good dream recall, after those days I stopped setting alarms and kept waking after dreams. And after some, I gave up writing my dreams and my sleep went back to normal, I go bed at night, I wake up at morning.
      So if alarms are bad, how can achieve wakings at night?

    3. #578
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      Yes, Maxmin099, I think those failed attempts at bedtime will help, since they amount to practice, and successful WILDing does require practice. Even if/though your bedtime WILDs fail, this practice will help you to become familiar with the process so that when you do finally find your WBTB timing, you might be ready with a working WILD routine as well. Also, the mindset you have with you at bedtime during these tries might just lead to a DILD, and there's nothing wrong with that!

      If your only successful path to a WBTB is with an alarm, then go ahead and use one. They do make alarms these days that are more gentle than your average buzzer; maybe you can try out one of those in order to avoid, or at least lesson, the shock of an immediate wake-up. From what you said, though, it seems that using the alarm for a time helps train you to become able eventually to awaken on your own, so it might not be a permanent thing anyway.

      Also, you made a good point on your own above: It might not have been the alarms that was the problem at all, but the fact that you stopped paying attention to your dreams (you gave up writing your dreams). So maybe the next step is to go back to writing down your dreams, or at least to actually get up for a moment after a wake-up so you don't go back to sleep immediately; WBTB, after all, stands for Wake Back to Bed, and not Wake Stay in Bed. This not only helps with the awakening process, but also with developing a lucid mindset: In time -- with practice -- you might find yourself catching those moments when you wake naturally (especially after 5 or more hours' sleep) with your recent dreams still on hand and your mind interested in dreaming, and not just going back to sleep, and writing them down might not be necessary (though still a good idea!). These things tend to make WBTB much easier, and WILD more likely.

      So, in short: Yes, any practice is better than none, so attempting a WILD at bedtime can have value, even if it fails. Go ahead and use that alarm if it's necessary, but also go back to writing down your dreams upon wake-ups, and try getting out of bed after a wake-up.
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    4. #579
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      Thanks for the answer.
      My self suggestion worked perfect, better than I've imagined. Even though I set an alarm, tonight I woke for 3 times without the alarm. I had to cancel the alarm.
      I wrote my dreams but it was mostly like Wake Stay in Bed, I will correct this behavior like you said.
      By the way, I've started applying your tutorial. I'm doing RRCs as much as I can (yes, not more than 3 in an hour). Is this thread a good place to share my experiences on that?
      Edit: Ah, okay I saw it, it's the other thread.
      Last edited by maxmin099; 01-02-2021 at 10:46 AM.
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    5. #580
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      Just read the above comments about catching the REM cycles and thatís cleared up something Iíve been pondering about for a while. I was wondering whether catching those natural awakenings was a sign my cycle had ended and thatís why I was struggling with WILDs afterwards.

      I wonder if you could clear something else up for me? Iím quite good now at waking naturally in the night and my first reaction when I catch these awakenings is to lay still and recall my dreams which I do for 5-10 minutes. If I donít fall back asleep (often I do!) I then get up use the toilet and then repeat a mantra as I fall back asleep. This can be quite effective for DILD but doesnít seem to be working for my WILDs/ DEILDs.

      I worry I may be putting too much emphasis on recall beforehand? When it comes to DEILDs is it advisable to catch that brief awakening and go straight back to sleep without doing any recall or waking yourself too much? Or is it better to wake the mind a bit first? I struggle getting back to sleep if I wake myself for too long so Iím wondering if Iím better keeping myself in that sleepier state when attempting DEILDs and WILDs.

      Thanks in advance.

    6. #581
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
      so I’m wondering if I’m better keeping myself in that sleepier state when attempting DEILDs and WILDs.
      Hi there, I am not the teacher and me and sageous each have styles developed independently. For the most part we have similar recommendations. I see your question has sat awhile so I will attempt to answer. If you are working on recall you should take a short time to bring the memories into waking life and record or write down key words that will help you in your attempt to recall them later. I also want to try DEILD each time so it is very important to stay mostly asleep. This is a learned skill, to be able to operate with out wakefully engaging your mind. Wake, think what just happened, record some key words, barely move during this, back to sleep. If your goal is 100% DEILD and recall is not a focus you keep your awareness at the lowest level you can and still be aware. In WILD you can get up and pee. I find that about perfect but I do not turn on lights and I still keep myself from fully awakening. Hope any of that helps. Sageous may have more to add or things he teaches different.
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    7. #582
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      ^^ Wow, I totally missed that one; thanks Sivason!
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    8. #583
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ Wow, I totally missed that one; thanks Sivason!
      Thanks for the tips Sivason! Iíve been lucky enough to have 2 intentional WILDs this month!

      Actually, you did reply Sageous but in another thread I started on the subject! So thank you as well for the helpful advice. I will attach your response below encase anyone is interested.



      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      I have a quick and hopefully helpful observation:

      Quote Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
      So far Iíve had 3 successful DEILDs but all 3 were sort of spontaneous (or so they seemed!) I usually awake from a dream when it happens but not fully and remain in that sleepy in between state and manage to transition from there.

      The numerous times Iíve tried to do it willingly after waking though I have failed. I struggle with getting back to sleep and probably wake myself up too much by focusing on the methods.

      So I have a few questions which I was hoping to get some advice on.
      All DEILD's are literally spontaneous, because you do them immediately upon the moment you realize you are beginning to awaken; so what you're doing was actually the right thing. Also, in my opinion, the ideal DEILD conditions include not fully waking and remaining in that sleepy between state to best manage the transition back to dream. So you are clearly on the right track with DEILD. Except for one thing, I would recommend not adding anything to your DEILD routine (or anti-routine, I suppose), and just keep doing what you're doing.

      What's the one thing? When you feel yourself waking up, try to hold onto the dream you are exiting -- keep it foremost in your thoughts (well above concerns about waking up, for instance), even visualize its continuation if you can. This makes the transition back to your dream much easier. Please note that this "holding on" does not equal recall; recall is a cognitive function that will only help wake you up even more, and is not necessary in DEILD, or classic WILD for that matter.

      As long as I'm here:

      1. How much should I recall?
      Not much at all: Recall is not a necessary component of WILD, and, as I just said, will likely damage your DEILD. So yes, with DEILD "wake up, not open my eyes, forget recall and go straight into a DEILD attempt" is a very good idea.

      That said I don't think remembering your dreams during WBTB when attempting a classic WILD would have much of an effect on getting back to sleep, and 5-10 minutes recalling your dreams is a fine use of WBTB time, because it might help keep your mind focused on dreaming, rather than other tempting distractions that accompany waking up (i.e., looking at your phone). Still, should you choose not to bother with recall during a WBTB, your WILD will be just as attainable

      Oh, and I recommend that you never worry about catching your last REM period, as that is just another distraction that will pull you away from lucidity; just remember that dreams cause REM, and not the other way around, so if you get back to sleep and dreaming (through DEILD or WILD), your REM period by definition will be extended.

      So: Yes, recall is a bad thing to do during a DEILD, but, though not necessary, it is okay with classic WILD when done during WBTB.


      2. No alarm
      Good.

      Alarms, in my opinion, are an ineffective tool, because they tend to wake you too much for WILD and completely defeat any chance of DEILD.

      And, once again, "catching REM" is a not necessary focus, especially late in the sleep cycle, when your brain is pretty much set to dream all the time (meaning slow-wave NREM moments are very short and easily endured or papered over with dreaming, should you encounter them). [Note: This might run counter to what I said in the timing section of my WILD class; I guess my knowledge/opinions have evolved over the last decade.]

      So you are on the right track here too; no worries!

      3. Anchor
      My go-to anchor is a mantra, but this truly is one choice you will find yourself making on your own, as you discover what works best for you.
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    9. #584
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      ^^ Thanks for posting, Tiktaalik, and for reassuring me that I did not suffer a Senior Moment after all!
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    10. #585
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      [Note: This might run counter to what I said in the timing section of my WILD class; I guess my knowledge/opinions have evolved over the last decade.]
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    11. #586
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      How do you find your optimum time for WBTB, and how do you just get up without an alarm? I don't usually naturally wake up during the night, so how would I go about finding a good time for WBTB?

    12. #587
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      ^^ How to find the perfect WBTB time? Three words: Practice, practice, practice!

      Seriously. Since the best WBTB time -- and stay-up time-- is unique to you, the best way to find that time is through experimentation. Try different times until you find the combination that works best for you. It may be time consuming, but it really is that simple.

      Regarding alarms: Yes, you might need them at first, but, with time and practice you might find that you do not need them so much. This is because we all have natural awakenings at several times during the sleep cycle, with those brief awakenings occuring more frequently very late in the sleep cycle. The trouble is that, in your normal, sleepy, non-lucid state, you never notice them. But as you do your experimentation, you will find yourself noticing more and more of those awakenings. As you become accustomed to noticing them, you will find that you will not need an alarm to awaken you. In other words: in time, and with practice, you will have no trouble noticing -- and taking advantage of -- those moments of brief awakenibgs you have every night. It's all a matter of experience, expectation, and, yes, practice.
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    13. #588
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ How to find the perfect WBTB time? Three words: Practice, practice, practice!

      Seriously. Since the best WBTB time -- and stay-up time-- is unique to you, the best way to find that time is through experimentation. Try different times until you find the combination that works best for you. It may be time consuming, but it really is that simple.

      Regarding alarms: Yes, you might need them at first, but, with time and practice you might find that you do not need them so much. This is because we all have natural awakenings at several times during the sleep cycle, with those brief awakenings occuring more frequently very late in the sleep cycle. The trouble is that, in your normal, sleepy, non-lucid state, you never notice them. But as you do your experimentation, you will find yourself noticing more and more of those awakenings. As you become accustomed to noticing them, you will find that you will not need an alarm to awaken you. In other words: in time, and with practice, you will have no trouble noticing -- and taking advantage of -- those moments of brief awakenibgs you have every night. It's all a matter of experience, expectation, and, yes, practice.
      Thanks, I will keep this in mind!

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