Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

Awesome explanation !! WOW literaly WOW you have very good writing skills ! Any way i will try tommorow once i wake up to go to the toilet or wake up from a dream

So what i did yesterday is the following : i woke up after 3 hours , stayed awake for 5 minutes , after that i returned to bed , slept on my side and stayed aware .
The urge to let go was powerful but somehow i held my mantra firmly in my head and just meditated on it . I did not let any thoughts invade my mind , and i was firmly repeating in my head "I will stay AWARE and CONSCIOUS AWARE and CONSCIOUS .... " Suddenly sleep paralysis hits me and i know i am already in the dream i roll out of my body and have a dream with very little lucidity . Now i did everything i could to avoid sleep paralysis because it always makes me enter lucid dreams without much lucidity , i did everything instructed and i relaxed . How can i alter the effect and avoid entering using sleep paralysis ? I want to watch the dream form around me and then enter it

^^ I just answered this post on the "What Happened" thread, where you left the same message. Please don't double-post, Ahmedoy, as the DV's admins don't like it, and it just confuses me!

Sure !!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Please use this thread to post any questions you have about the WILD According to Sageous Sessions, WILD, self-awareness, or any other related topic. I'll answer what I can, and maybe lively discussions will also ensue -- from which we all always learn!

Best of Dreams,

Sageous

Hi,

I have read all the WILD classes and tried WILD for two weeks, but I have hard time falling asleep, maybe I'm trying too hard. I just lie there for like 30 minutes, trying not to move stiff as a board. At some time my muscles starting to ache and can't proceed any further. I tried counting forward/backward but most of the time nothing happen and I just lose sleep. Some time I get the HI as random imagery and voices, but maybe I'm focusing too hard on them and cycles there. Just yesterday I succeed by incident, again was too aware of my body, at some point I started tell to myself "sensory input come on shut down". The light behind my eyelids started to fade away(i have direct sunlight in my room) like somebody switched off the lamp and started to hear humming sounds instead of outside dog barking, maybe I switched from external to internal stimuli. My eyelids were heavy and I felt if I open them, I will open them in real world, so I stand up with eyes shut, but somehow I still can see the room with some sort of xray vision. I move around and I remember my dream goal(to access dreamviews.com from my bedroom pc), but what ever I type on the keyboard come as jibberish on the screen. I got angry of trying and everything fall apart around me. It seems normal steps:
1. Lie down.
2. Close your eyes.
3. Hold still. Really; don’t move!
4. Wait.
5. Enjoy the lucid dream.
Don't work very well for light sleeper like me. Any ideas?

Hmm.

Right off the bat, StarSeeker, I'm thinking that maybe you should take my WILD class again. I'm a little surprised that, after taking it, you still see the WILD process as lie down/hold still/wait, because the class is all about the fact that WILD requires much more than that. Also, I think if you browse the Q&A's (Both the WILD Q&A and Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals Q&A), you will likely find much discussion about the things that you've asked about -- for instance, I'm a light sleeper myself, so that subject comes up a few times.

That said, a couple of thoughts:

First, if your muscles ache during a WILD attempt, you may be attempting to stay too still. Remember that WILD is all about actually falling asleep; if you make the struggle to stay still too active, (like, for instance, clenching your muscles to keep from moving) your body might respond by keeping you awake so you can better maintain the effort. I would suggest that you consider "keeping still" a bit less literally: yes, try not to move too much but let your body relax and settle naturally into sleep mode. You might consider trying a relaxation technique, like the 60-points meditation, to help you to settle into sleep mode more calmly.

As I mentioned, I too am a light sleeper, so I am pretty familiar with the challenges the come with it (and advantages, like always being slightly closer to a waking state than deep sleepers, and, given that LD'ing is a waking-state, always closer to being lucid!). The biggest challenge is actually getting to sleep: I generally take over an hour to get to sleep during WILD's, sometimes more. I don't tend to give up the effort until I've held still for at least 90 minutes. So, my recommendation here is that you give yourself more than 30 minutes before you give up -- and, if you are relaxing rather than tightening those muscles while you hold still, a longer wait might not be such a problem.

I also recommend that you use a sleep mask, or blackout curtains during your WILD attempts (I use both, BTW). Light is the enemy of sleep, and if your room has direct sunlight pouring in, getting to sleep is all that much harder. I'd also suggest using some sort of white noise, like a fan, to dampen exterior sounds like barking dogs. Though you seem to have found a use for both these things (the light and the barking) in your efforts, I think you might be better off if they weren't factors in your WILD process.

Finally:

The light behind my eyelids started to fade away(i have direct sunlight in my room) like somebody switched off the lamp and started to hear humming sounds instead of outside dog barking, maybe I switched from external to internal stimuli. My eyelids were heavy and I felt if I open them, I will open them in real world, so I stand up with eyes shut, but somehow I still can see the room with some sort of xray vision. I move around and I remember my dream goal(to access dreamviews.com from my bedroom pc), but what ever I type on the keyboard come as jibberish on the screen. I got angry of trying and everything fall apart around me.

That sounds to me like a successful WILD! The LD may have been uneventful, but it seems you went through he transition from wake to sleep to dream successfully; no need to see that as a fail, I think.

tl;dr: there is more to WILD than just "1. Lie down; 2. Close your eyes; 3. Hold still; 4. Wait." I hope you will find the time to revisit my class and explore the other stuff, primarily mental prep and the fundamentals.


Good luck!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Please use this thread to post any questions you have about the WILD According to Sageous Sessions, WILD, self-awareness, or any other related topic. I'll answer what I can, and maybe lively discussions will also ensue -- from which we all always learn!

Best of Dreams,

Sageous

Hello,

I just noticed this handy thread and noticed you are actually a Dream Guide, because I really need an experienced opinion for an important question of mine.

I'm in the middle of a nasty long dry spell, so I go back in time and reviewed my dream journal to see what I'm missing. After some calculation of the successful induced LDs, I averaged my chance of pure DILD to just 10% of all LDs, WILD,VILD,DEILD to 25% and FAW->DILD to 65%. So do I to continue trying to induce WILD or to just stick to a technique that produce more FAW for more quantity, less quality?

One more question, are these events are also variation of FAW or they are something else?
-Opening my eyes in front of the mirror in my bathroom
-Opening my eyes while sitting on the couch in living room
-Opening my eyes standing next to the window in my kitchen(they all start of opening my eyes)
They all start in my house, but not in the bed. In most of them I don't even need to do RC, I just know I'm dreaming.

^^ Actually no, I'm not a Dream Guide here at DV; I'm just a guy who volunteered to write a DVA course on WILD. But that doesn't mean I can't offer a response of some sort:

Originally Posted by GordanFreeman

I'm in the middle of a nasty long dry spell, so I go back in time and reviewed my dream journal to see what I'm missing. After some calculation of the successful induced LDs, I averaged my chance of pure DILD to just 10% of all LDs, WILD,VILD,DEILD to 25% and FAW->DILD to 65%. So do I to continue trying to induce WILD or to just stick to a technique that produce more FAW for more quantity, less quality?

I would suggest that you continue to work toward inducing WILD's, because the mindset such work produces might just be the thing that's causing those false awakenings (which, I assume, is what FAW stands for) in the first place. Besides, there's no sense stopping a practice that produces a quarter of your lucid moments! Also, in my opinion, quality always outweighs quantity.

One more question, are these events are also variation of FAW or they are something else?
-Opening my eyes in front of the mirror in my bathroom
-Opening my eyes while sitting on the couch in living room
-Opening my eyes standing next to the window in my kitchen(they all start of opening my eyes)
They all start in my house, but not in the bed. In most of them I don't even need to do RC, I just know I'm dreaming.

I think I would put them more in a "something else" category, like simple dream imagery produced at times when your dreaming mind can't produce something more complex. For instance, sometimes you might be dreaming very late in the sleep cycle (say, after 6 hrs' sleep) and the only reason you are is, perhaps, because of your intentions to LD; indeed the only reason you might be asleep at that point is due to an attempt to LD, and your consciousness might be way closer to a waking-life attitude than it is to the state that produces full-on dreams.

So your dreaming mind has little left to offer regarding dream content (and often little inclination, because its work is effectively done for the night), and a limited ability to summon imagery that will seem to your near-wakeful perception as real. What it does in that case is simply throw up whatever imagery is most readily available, and you find yourself opening your eyes in very familiar/recent settings.

The reason I don't see this as a FA is that FA's occur when you are still more deeply asleep and are specifically dreams -- actual dreams -- about waking up, and often are accompanied by a solid non-lucid sense of reality that leads you to believe that they are truly awakenings. Now, FA's do tend to occur under similar circumstances as do the moments you listed -- late in the sleep cycle your dreaming mind has a limited capacity for imagery, so it grabs what it can -- but I think FA's are still more definable as dreams. It may be subtle, but the difference here is that during FA's your mind is a little further away from lucidity than it is during those moments your dreaming mind conjures simple imagery to accommodate your near-waking interest in continuing your dream. ... not that there's anything wrong with that simple imagery: if finding yourself "opening" your eyes in those familiar situations also finds yourself lucid, all the better, whether FA's or not!

This all sounded a lot better in my head, but hopefully I've been clear enough.

Your answers are always vast, thanks. Are u participating on other LD forums?

Originally Posted by Sageous

I would suggest that you continue to work toward inducing WILD's, because the mindset such work produces might just be the thing that's causing those false awakenings (which, I assume, is what FAW stands for) in the first place. Besides, there's no sense stopping a practice that produces a quarter of your lucid moments! Also, in my opinion, quality always outweighs quantity.

You are right about quality vs quantity, but in my current health condition they are very hard and unreliable way of inducing the so desired LDs. Also I already mastered the stabilization part(30 minutes and more with no time dilatations and more than 24 hours with them), so I just need a chance to become lucid. In my curent health condition I only have two choices: Die or Evolve. And I'm so close to the Sun, only little further remains, it's within my grasp I can taste it.

I think I would put them more in a "something else" category, like simple dream imagery produced at times when your dreaming mind can't produce something more complex. For instance, sometimes you might be dreaming very late in the sleep cycle (say, after 6 hrs' sleep) and the only reason you are is, perhaps, because of your intentions to LD; indeed the only reason you might be asleep at that point is due to an attempt to LD, and your consciousness might be way closer to a waking-life attitude than it is to the state that produces full-on dreams.

So your dreaming mind has little left to offer regarding dream content (and often little inclination, because its work is effectively done for the night), and a limited ability to summon imagery that will seem to your near-wakeful perception as real. What it does in that case is simply throw up whatever imagery is most readily available, and you find yourself opening your eyes in very familiar/recent settings.

The reason I don't see this as a FA is that FA's occur when you are still more deeply asleep and are specifically dreams -- actual dreams -- about waking up, and often are accompanied by a solid non-lucid sense of reality that leads you to believe that they are truly awakenings. Now, FA's do tend to occur under similar circumstances as do the moments you listed -- late in the sleep cycle your dreaming mind has a limited capacity for imagery, so it grabs what it can -- but I think FA's are still more definable as dreams. It may be subtle, but the difference here is that during FA's your mind is a little further away from lucidity than it is during those moments your dreaming mind conjures simple imagery to accommodate your near-waking interest in continuing your dream. ... not that there's anything wrong with that simple imagery: if finding yourself "opening" your eyes in those familiar situations also finds yourself lucid, all the better, whether FA's or not!

This all sounded a lot better in my head, but hopefully I've been clear enough.

So maybe I can just use my house as standing point to Lucidity, I just need to find the right approach. You see my 95% of dreams are literally crazy, they are very vivid and detailed and my recall is very good(at least 3 dreams per night), but only in other 5% normal dreams I can become lucid. I'm a natural Lucid dreamer and when I remembered all of them(in childhood) were produced from FAW, so maybe I just need to go back to my roots. Do you know some expert of FAW on this forum, maybe he can give me some hint to producing them.

Ah and another question, I tried RC in the past, but they didn't work very well. Now I stopped myself to just one. When noticing something strange I just say "Where the hell am I" and "Am I dreaming right now" and observing my surroundings for surreal, but I always finish with "No I'm awake now maybe next time". Do I make it wrong?

Originally Posted by GordanFreeman

So maybe I can just use my house as standing point to Lucidity, I just need to find the right approach. You see my 95% of dreams are literally crazy, they are very vivid and detailed and my recall is very good(at least 3 dreams per night), but only in other 5% normal dreams I can become lucid. I'm a natural Lucid dreamer and when I remembered all of them(in childhood) were produced from FAW, so maybe I just need to go back to my roots. Do you know some expert of FAW on this forum, maybe he can give me some hint to producing them.

Nope; I can't think of anyone who's focused on producing/capitalizing on FA's. Who knows? When you're done, you might be the expert in this category!

Ah and another question, I tried RC in the past, but they didn't work very well. Now I stopped myself to just one. When noticing something strange I just say "Where the hell am I" and "Am I dreaming right now" and observing my surroundings for surreal, but I always finish with "No I'm awake now maybe next time". Do I make it wrong?

Here's my standard response to RC questions:

"There is a dirty little secret about RC's that the gurus refuse to tell you: RC's don't make you lucid. Period. The only time RC's work is after you've become aware that you're dreaming, as confirmation that you are indeed dreaming. Otherwise, you're just as likely to have a NLD about doing a RC that fails as you are one that doesn't fail."

That said, I think I could guess that yes, indeed, you did "make it wrong." That's because you didn't have enough lucidity on hand to counter the "artificial reality" of the surreal stuff you noticed, to remember that the stuff you were seeing could not be real. But making it wrong was not your fault, inasmuch as it really wasn't' "You" making it wrong, but your "DC you" who remained consistent with NLD consciousness by failing to remember that the strange things you saw should have meant it was a dream. As I said above, though, there's nothing you can do about this, because, well, RC's simply don't work if you are not already present in the dream.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Nope; I can't think of anyone who's focused on producing/capitalizing on FA's. Who knows? When you're done, you might be the expert in this category!

Shame, oh well then I'm just gonna use some SSILD combined with "expectation and intention".

Here's my standard response to RC questions:

"There is a dirty little secret about RC's that the gurus refuse to tell you: RC's don't make you lucid. Period. The only time RC's work is after you've become aware that you're dreaming, as confirmation that you are indeed dreaming. Otherwise, you're just as likely to have a NLD about doing a RC that fails as you are one that doesn't fail."

That said, I think I could guess that yes, indeed, you did "make it wrong." That's because you didn't have enough lucidity on hand to counter the "artificial reality" of the surreal stuff you noticed, to remember that the stuff you were seeing could not be real. But making it wrong was not your fault, inasmuch as it really wasn't' "You" making it wrong, but your "DC you" who remained consistent with NLD consciousness by failing to remember that the strange things you saw should have meant it was a dream. As I said above, though, there's nothing you can do about this, because, well, RC's simply don't work if you are not already present in the dream.

Sorry maybe I confused you, I'm using this RC through waking life several times a day, but maybe I'm finishing it wrongly with "no I'm not dreaming right now". Maybe this transfer into my dreams and give me the opposite effect. And yes I never did any RC inside the dreams, I'm just getting this sudden "doh I'm dreaming" effect.

I read several pages of your fundamental thread and noticed you are natural dreamer like me, of course you are much older than me. I feel we are on the same boat that sways in the waves of the endless sea called Lucid Dreaming. But men, you must have more faith and discarding less the stuff you can't prove to yourself.

Sorry, today I'm little in hyperarousal state, because I made a major breakthrough. I re-discovered a way of OBE at will and shout "Eureka" so loud that maybe someone heard me away from two houses of mine I have done OBE many times before, but it was unintentional and unconsciously. I just had some various leads of what I had done before gonne to bed. I must focus on the solution now and rethink every step I have done.

p.s. I just noticed you are writer and love art, I'm not sure that you are into games, but you must definitely try "Alan Wake", this game is piece of art. It mixing a good story with dreaming scenario and ah the main protagonist is a writer. My favorite moment is when his wife shout in his ear "Wake up, Alan"
One more PC trailer
The PC trailer

Originally Posted by GordanFreeman

Sorry maybe I confused you, I'm using this RC through waking life several times a day, but maybe I'm finishing it wrongly with "no I'm not dreaming right now". Maybe this transfer into my dreams and give me the opposite effect. And yes I never did any RC inside the dreams, I'm just getting this sudden "doh I'm dreaming" effect.

Yes, I did misunderstand.

In that case, I would say that you are doing your daytime RC just fine. What else can you say when you do a RC and it turns out positive? If you're awake, you're awake; telling yourself something else, in my opinion, is not very helpful. So I change my response, because you were not doing anything wrong, or giving your mind anything to dampen your becoming lucid during a NLD.

I read several pages of your fundamental thread and noticed you are natural dreamer like me, of course you are much older than me. I feel we are on the same boat that sways in the waves of the endless sea called Lucid Dreaming. But men, you must have more faith and discarding less the stuff you can't prove to yourself.

Alas, I am not a natural by any measure. I spent many years developing what skills I have, and I still must make an effort to achieve maximum lucidity.

I don't remember what I may have said about proof in the fundamentals thread (though I did go on about it in another thread, here), but be assured I never "discard" experiences that I cannot explain or clearly remember. I keep them, try to learn from them, am regularly amazed by them, but I do try to avoid potential delusion by adding to them aspects or meaning that may never have been there in the first place. If you cloud your mind with wonderful, imagined explanations for what happened in an unusual experience, you might overlook the subtle stuff that really happened, and that is never good.

p.s. I just noticed you are writer and love art, I'm not sure that you are into games, but you must definitely try "Alan Wake", this game is piece of art. It mixing a good story with dreaming scenario and ah the main protagonist is a writer. My favorite moment is when his wife shout in his ear "Wake up, Alan"
One more PC trailer
The PC trailer

Sorry; I am not a gamer.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sorry; I am not a gamer.

Oh well nobody is perfect , but you still can watch the full gameplay walkthrough on Youtube. It's like a movie.

Maybe soon I will post a tutorial of OBE at will in Beyond Dreaming section

Originally Posted by Sageous

I don't remember what I may have said about proof in the fundamentals thread (though I did go on about it in another thread, here), but be assured I never "discard" experiences that I cannot explain or clearly remember. I keep them, try to learn from them, am regularly amazed by them, but I do try to avoid potential delusion by adding to them aspects or meaning that may never have been there in the first place. If you cloud your mind with wonderful, imagined explanations for what happened in an unusual experience, you might overlook the subtle stuff that really happened, and that is never good.

After I read at least the first page of that thread, some of the fundamentals thread and prologue of one of your books, I must say that I stay strong with my words - you must have more faith. And now I know why you didn't reach your true goal yet, because you chose to lock your "one mind" to your "one self" and ignore everything else.(Of cource I'm not trying to criticize you here on anything, that was your rightful choice to do so)

Sigh.

I'm amazed that you feel you know me so well after reading just a few snippets of my written work, Gordon; I personally like to know a bit more about a person before passing judgement; but that's just me, I suppose. Oh, and I have plenty of faith, thanks, I'm pretty sure I've never shared my "true goal" here, much less lamented not reaching it, and I'm afraid you've remarkably misunderstood something I said regarding that "one mind" bit, because what you said made no sense (f you were referencing my recommendation that dreamers pursue a non-dual perspective, you might want to read more of my work; that perspective does not require me to ignore things that seem beyond my own creation -- in fact I welcome and actively pursue such things).

Now that you've had a chance to "not criticise" me, I think it's time to go back to WILD, which is what this thread is about; I hope you don't mind.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sigh.

I'm amazed that you feel you know me so well after reading just a few snippets of my written work, Gordon; I personally like to know a bit more about a person before passing judgement; but that's just me, I suppose. Oh, and I have plenty of faith, thanks, I'm pretty sure I've never shared my "true goal" here, much less lamented not reaching it, and I'm afraid you've remarkably misunderstood something I said regarding that "one mind" bit, because what you said made no sense (f you were referencing my recommendation that dreamers pursue a non-dual perspective, you might want to read more of my work; that perspective does not require me to ignore things that seem beyond my own creation -- in fact I welcome and actively pursue such things).

Now that you've had a chance to "not criticise" me, I think it's time to go back to WILD, which is what this thread is about; I hope you don't mind.

You misunderstood me, I didn't write this to start a arguing, I just did it to peace my mind. I can't possible start a arguing with you. You are a Master Dreamer(have many thousand of LD's), a writer(who can write vast and well structured and organaized posts), Elder (you got more life experience), so you are better than me. I just wanted to help, but if you feel offended, I'm sorry. And for the "one mind", I didn't read it anywhere, I just made it myself(I just try to use a metaphor here).

So peace.

Originally Posted by Sageous

......
Good luck!

One more question some guides say that, if you have a scratch during preparation, you must just scratch it and go back to the process, without think too much about it. Other say that you must ignore the scratches, because they are signal from your body to the brain, to check if you are still awake. So if you scratch the process reset itself. So who is more right?

Scratch away, StarSeeker!

In my opinion, the struggle to ignore an itch is far more distracting and wake-inducing than is simply scratching the itch and settling back to your WILD dive.

Yes, it is important to hold still during a WILD transition, but that stillness is not the defining factor of your dive (that would be your state of mind, BTW). If you must scratch an itch, or relax a cramp, or brush some hair out of your face, sniff, or shift your blankets, or etc., just go ahead and do it. Do so with as little thought or attention to your action as possible, go back to your initial stillness, and let the action slide quickly into the past.

I'm not sure where this rule about remaining perfectly still at all cost came from, but rest assured I was doing successful WILDs for decades (and talking to other successful WILDer's about it), and the subject of extreme stillness itself never even came up, much less these tortuous rules for holding your position. Oh, and you might want to ask one of those "others," who seem to think that an itch is your brain testing whether you are awake, where they got that information; I've never heard of it myself, and it truly makes no sense to me at all (why? for two reasons: first, what is an itch during the day, then, and why is that different from one at night? Also, your brain is about the only part of you that always knows whether you are awake or asleep; why would it need to enlist such an aid?).

So go ahead and scratch that itch. It isn't the itch, or the scratching, that endangers your WILD dive, it is how you deal with that itch... focusing on it in an effort to not scratch is, in my opinion, a far greater distraction than just giving it a quick, gentle scratch without much thought, and distraction is the real enemy of WILD, because it takes you away from minding your transition.

So if I come with a mantra that can distract me from my body sensations like scratching and skip the sp part in the process, can I have an easier dive? Up until now I only have used counting, but maybe it isn't very effective.

[hmm... we seem to be combining questions from the DILD thread ]

No, a mantra is not meant to distract; quite the opposite. It's meant to keep you in focus. Body processes like scratching are what distract you from the mantra, which is why it's best to minimize their impact.

Wait. You know what? Usually about now in a conversation I come to a suggestion, and here it is: If you haven't already, I suggest that you take the WILD Class to which this thread is attached. I think you'll find that it answers most of your questions, and might just answer a couple that you haven't thought of yet. There's even a session on mantras.

Originally Posted by Sageous

...

Hi again,

Some time pass, had a lot of LDs, but it's not enough. I need more, maybe I'm too greedy. So I have come to ask you something of utmost importance, about the mantras you are using. In the mantra section you said that you are using “I am at the point where the land and the water meet,” then you changed to a simple "Dive", in my learning process I understood that words are not very important, but the feeling you put behind them. You use a lot of "water, dive", maybe you like swiming or the sea. So what feeling or imagination you were putting behind these words when repeating them? Every detail can be important.

^^ First, StarSeeker, I think you may have misunderstood something from that post: The mantra I noted, “I am at the point where the land and the water meet,” had nothing to do with the mantra, "Dive," that I used years later; it was just an example. Also, perhaps as an aside, I used the word "dive" a lot in the class, but I wasn't (consciously, anyway) thinking of entering water, but rather that a WILD transition is very much like a dive from wake to sleep to dream, so the shorthand worked nicely.

That said:

Terms like "water" and "dive" are meaningful to me because over the years I've formed, both accidentally and on purpose, a metaphoric vision of the unconscious as a great ocean, with our conscious selves generally limited to floating on the ocean's surface. So "dive" gives me an instant and clear image of breaking through that surface and offers an opportunity to plum the depths of the ocean of the unconscious. Also, water has had a substantial role in my dreams throughout my life, especially in LD's (i.e., when I become lucid and choose to leave my current dream, I tend to wind up over or deep within a body of water). So not so much about swimming or the sea (both of which I do like, BTW), but more about long-developed personal metaphor.

I think the above does make a nice example of what I'm talking about in the mantras session, in that the mantra is simple, easily repeated, and represents a lot of personal meaning. I hope it helped.

As another aside, I'm a writer by trade, so words matter a lot to me, and I think in terms of mantras they mean even more: the words you choose should carry meaning -- as deep as possible to you personally, but they also should be simple, easy to repeat, perhaps even have a rhythm to them. Yes, it's the meaning that matters most, but be careful, if you can, to choose words that make your mantra easy to repeat and remember.

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ First, StarSeeker,

I thought we both reach the same idea, but I was wrong after all. You use the word "Dive" with meaning behind the same way one Anime use it, "Sword of Art Online"(i know you are not big fan of anime^^). They say "Full Dive" in Virtual World with special device similar to Inception.

My point is that in recent month during a hypnagogia session(my thoughts become more vivid in that state), I came up with a special type of mantra, it's different than other mantras. I called it a "motion mantra", by repeating it is tending to reproduce a predifined motion with practice, of course I'm still in process of beta testing it. If I can finish it, it will give a opportunity one to have multiple LDs in a single night. So I thought I can use some of your insight on the matter. This special technique is totally unique and it is not like the other abbreviations (FILD,VILD,MILD etc). Essentially is a "Dream hack", it's like the mind back door. If one fall asleep while repeating her, it will tend to produce multiple FA with sudden awareness. You can test it if you want, here is the mantra: repeat "I'm getting heavy and sinking/falling." while imagine the sinking/falling sensation from WILD, you must link the mantra with the sensation. This technique is a hybrid, producing both WILD and DILD, Its beta name is "The Lucid Kick"^^

^^ That sounds like a good plan, StarSeeker. Attaching a mantra to an established hypnagogia technique (falling through your bed, or, as I think LaBerge suggested in EWOLD, rolling out of it) seems like a good idea, since it might get your mind set to better "fall" when the time comes, especially during FA's. Of course, me being me, I have just one small suggestion:

You might want to consider shortening your mantra, "I'm getting heavy and sinking/falling," to something more easy to repeat, like "I'm heavy," or maybe "My bed is a cloud," just so it stays with you longer. If the meaning of your mantra is solid (and in your case it obviously is), then even just one word, maybe "Sink," is enough to keep the entire concept/motion at the front of your mind... Just a thought, of course, good luck with developing your Lucid Kick!


As long as I'm here:

Originally Posted by StarSeeker

I thought we both reach the same idea, but I was wrong after all. You use the word "Dive" with meaning behind the same way one Anime use it, "Sword of Art Online"(i know you are not big fan of anime^^). They say "Full Dive" in Virtual World with special device similar to Inception.

Actually, I'm a longtime fan of anime, going back to Ghost in the Shell and even Starblazers and Robotech. I even saw the first season of SAO, though couldn't get interested in the rest (though I very much liked that its themes so clearly mirrored lucid dreaming). I'm not much of a fan of Inception, though, because so much of it was just plain wrong. And, finally, I think we are both working on the same surface, if not in the same spot...

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That sounds like a good plan, StarSeeker. Attaching a mantra to an established hypnagogia technique (falling through your bed, or, as I think LaBerge suggested in EWOLD, rolling out of it) seems like a good idea, since it might get your mind set to better "fall" when the time comes, especially during FA's. Of course, me being me, I have just one small suggestion:

You might want to consider shortening your mantra, "I'm getting heavy and sinking/falling," to something more easy to repeat, like "I'm heavy," or maybe "My bed is a cloud," just so it stays with you longer. If the meaning of your mantra is solid (and in your case it obviously is), then even just one word, maybe "Sink," is enough to keep the entire concept/motion at the front of your mind... Just a thought, of course, good luck with developing your Lucid Kick!

All your point are taken into consideration and recorded into my research book, thank you. That Sinking/falling I'm talking about are little different than a ordinary hypnagogia technique and there is a science behind it. Do you know what hypnic jerk is?

Hypnic jerks are phenomenon most of us have experienced at least a few times, often when very tired or exhausted. As we lay down to sleep, a part of the brain called the reticular formation sends a signal down the spine that causes muscles to relax, and we quickly fall into a deep slumber – only to be suddenly awoken with a jump and slight muscle twitch – often immediately preceded by a brief sensation of falling. They are a common and generally harmless experience, occurring in all sexes and ages to about 70% of the population.

So with that mantra attached with sensation of falling/sinking I want to recreate a fake hypnic jerk, that on theory must activate after you fall asleep, but instead of jerking you wide awake, to trigger a FA with awareness aka lucid kick.

What has this got to do with our relationship with trees? Well, hypnic jerks have been explained as an ancient reflex to the relaxation of muscles during the onset of sleep for tree dwelling primates – the brain essentially misinterprets the sudden relaxation as a sign that the sleeping primate is falling out of a tree and so causes the muscles to quickly react and to awaken. The hypnic jerk reflex is likely to have had selective value by having the sleeper readjust their sleeping position in a nest or on a branch, in order to assure that a fall did not occur.

So if you try the Lucid Kick technique, during the mantra repetition you can feel a slight muscle twitch, sadly I'm still in process of ajusting. The bomb must not blow up while you are planting it, does it now^^

Actually, I'm a longtime fan of anime, going back to Ghost in the Shell and even Starblazers and Robotech. I even saw the first season of SAO, though couldn't get interested in the rest (though I very much liked that its themes so clearly mirrored lucid dreaming). I'm not much of a fan of Inception, though, because so much of it was just plain wrong. And, finally, I think we are both working on the same surface, if not in the same spot...

Honestly for the first time I'm glad to be wrong. I feel you much closer now, being an otaku myself. I already watched more than hundreds of anime. I watched Ghost in the shell long time ago, it was a little hard and dark for my taste though. I see that you like more mecha anime and for SAO next seasons were made more for fun and PvP battles. That said the last season was pretty good, exploiting the idea of recreating the human soul with help of AI, playing God again.

Inception can be wrong for most of the stuff, but at least show the general idea and had a positive outcome for these forums. If somebody can make such a machine, shared dreaming will become the next craze^^

Last I like your idea about the boat in the ocean, but instead of diving in it why don't you try to sink in the ocean, you can use a bit of visualization, if you like to float on your back in the water, letting yourself sink gently.

I can give you a little tip that maybe you didn't think of yet. Why didn't try to reverse that metaphor of yours "Welcome to the reversed world". Instead of floating on top of the water, you can imagine that you are already in the water and floating on the reversed surface, sinking and falling through the sky into the space aka your SuperConsciousness much larger ocean than the unconsciousness. Heck you even can use a simple training technique, if you have a house. Sit outside on a chair comfortably and look up as much as you can, imagine that you are not looking up but down instead, after a while you gonna feel like your consciousness being pulled out.^_~