Thread: What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

Originally Posted by StephL

Goes to show maybe, that it is really not a good idea to wait for HH/HI as indicators..
Delicate territory - figuring out, what state of mind I am in..

Yes, indeed, Stephl, your dream seems very much like you got caught up in the noise, and compounded it by adding a heavy dose of your own intellectual noise!

You are correct, it is never a good idea to wait for HI, but it is also not a good idea to analyze your dream or its progress during the dream -- this will surely lead to difficulties, including your dreaming mind offering up a dream about that progress (your "false not falling asleep").

The calm of WILD includes not only a physical relaxation, but an intellectual one as well. Keep your thoughts focused on the "big picture" of the dream, not its details, and never examine what's going on -- save that for later, if you're so inclined.

Other than that, it seems like an excellent attempt. Hopefully you'll be less lazy and more motivated next time a good WILD moment comes along (I fall prey to that problem regularly, too, BTW)!

Intellectual Noise - I like it!


Edit: Goes on my list for inspirations toward a nick-name change!

Originally Posted by Sageous

l relaxation, but an intellectual one as well. Keep your thoughts focused on the "big picture" of the dream, not its details, and never examine what's going on -- save that for later, if you're so inclined.

Question about this -- when I'm successfully doing what I've called "letting it happen," I've been keeping my mind entirely empty of anything but the mantra: basically I'm in "go to sleep mode" (keep mind relaxed, eyes unfocused, and just let thoughts that arise pass through without engaging them) with the addition of the mantra.

So for WILDing should we keep images, words, both, either of the desired dream in mind along with the mantra? Say my desired dream takes place in a park. Should I think the word "park?" Should I visualise the park, but not too detailed? Both, either, neither? On a constant basis or just at the start?

What I've done the last two times is spent a few minutes doing MILD-like visualisation, including some detail, of the desired dream, then switching to "go to sleep + mantra" with (trying at least) no more visualisation. Just trying to figure out if we're supposed to keep some visualisation or some aspect of the dream in our minds along with the "go to sleep + mantra"?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

So for WILDing should we keep images, words, both, either of the desired dream in mind along with the mantra? Say my desired dream takes place in a park. Should I think the word "park?" Should I visualise the park, but not too detailed? Both, either, neither? On a constant basis or just at the start?

I think it is always best to have an image, or better yet a specific memory, of that park, rather than just a word (though the word doesn't hurt, as long as you hold onto its relevant meaning). Unless you're very good at visualizing, it likely would be best to keep the image or memory simple, just to keep things clear in your mind. A constant basis is ideal, which is why it is a good idea to have your mantra complement your desired dream.

What I've done the last two times is spent a few minutes doing MILD-like visualisation, including some detail, of the desired dream, then switching to "go to sleep + mantra" with (trying at least) no more visualisation. Just trying to figure out if we're supposed to keep some visualisation or some aspect of the dream in our minds along with the "go to sleep + mantra"?

Yes. we're supposed to keep some visualization and/or some aspect of the desired dream in our minds throughout the dive. So if you can incorporate it into your mantra, great. If not then perhaps layering the visualization over your (very sensible) "just go to sleep + mantra" mental stance, it would probably help. It's a lot easier than it sounds, especially if you've spent some time setting your intentions, as it sounds like you do.

I hope that made sense; but I have a feeling it won't matter because in it seems that once again you may have already found your answer within your question!

Originally Posted by Sageous

I hope that made sense; but I have a feeling it won't matter because in it seems that once again you may have already found your answer within your question!

Yes that make sense, and no I really had no clue whether to include the visualization along with the mantra. I stopped the visualization before because I kept succumbing to interacting with the scene and playing out variations and that seemed to be stimulating and preventing sleep. I visualize pretty well I think, and I've noticed that these "night daydreams" tend to be more vivid than "day daydreams" and so the temptation to "play" is pretty strong. But every time I indulge in these variations like this it ends up delaying sleep by quite a bit.

OK back to work then. So the mantra should relate to the dream in some way? Like "park party"? I was previously under the impression that the mantra just just a place to "hang your awareness" and that it need not relate to the content of the desired dream at all...

One more question: in visualizing the scene, is static or dynamic preferred? E.g,. the just place, empty of people/movement/sounds, or the place with people, bustling with activity, making noise, etc.? Or is the answer "as much dynamic activity as you can maintain and still fall asleep?" (that time I'm trying to answer my own question ).

Maybe this explains why I had no dream waiting for me last time, assuming I really made it in, in the last bit there before the lucid-feeling moment, I kept my mind completely blank with no visualizations...on the other hand, I think that's what got me relaxed enough to get to sleep, ...., ah, the delicate balancing WILD requires...!!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

OK back to work then. So the mantra should relate to the dream in some way? Like "park party"? I was previously under the impression that the mantra just just a place to "hang your awareness" and that it need not relate to the content of the desired dream at all...

Though a "hang your awareness mantra" is okay, I think it is better that it relates to your dream intentions for that night. I think I said that in the mantra session of the class; if I didn't then I should have.

One more question: in visualizing the scene, is static or dynamic preferred? E.g,. the just place, empty of people/movement/sounds, or the place with people, bustling with activity, making noise, etc.? Or is the answer "as much dynamic activity as you can maintain and still fall asleep?" (that time I'm trying to answer my own question ).

Interesting question. My first response is to keep it simple, which would imply that yes, if it's a place you're visualizing, then it might be best to just imagine the place without filling in any messy or distracting details. But then I got to thinking.

It might actually be a good idea to visualize that park just as you remember it, or just as you plan it to appear in your dream. That would mean it ought to include dynamic details like people, vendors, sounds, etc, because that might be the easiest memory to draw. But I would avoid adding extra dynamism: don't put in activity that you don't remember having been there (or expect to be there), and don't "look" for images or sounds to add in; just let it form as your mind thinks it should. In other words, if the image exists in your mind already filled in with details, it would take just as much effort to remove them as it would to add details that weren't there. But don't get carried away.

Maybe this explains why I had no dream waiting for me last time, assuming I really made it in, in the last bit there before the lucid-feeling moment, I kept my mind completely blank with no visualizations...on the other hand, I think that's what got me relaxed enough to get to sleep, ...., ah, the delicate balancing WILD requires...!!

You could be right about that, and WILD is indeed a balancing act.

Next time!

I think, you are indeed on about the same thing, that I was on about FryingMan - so - great to get to my answers per your questions!
Thanks for that and the answers!

Actually - my thread next door from yesterday is maybe worth a third linkup.. redface.gifcheeky.gif

http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-expe...ml#post2061026

I probably will have to sort my affairs a bit more - like divide our Winter´s Tale thread into Helprin and family Sageous - I should think about a place for my experiences - not to go all over the place with them..
I will give this some thought as well.
But - yeah - see yourself/yourselves - I didn´t manage to WILD, but trying for it worked as an incubation to my first longer DILD since joining up here.
So - bad and good!
goodsigh2.gif

^^ DILD, WILD, or just stumbling in, in the end it doesn't matter how you got lucid, as long as you did! Also, you may have witnessed the fact that WILD attempts have value even when they fail, because they can do a lot to put your head in the right place.

Exactly!!

You know - I like the SSILD guide by Cosmic Iron a lot!
Linked up under "woohoo"..

feathers.gif

^^ And, in my opinion, SSILD is a form of WILD. So if you get to your LD thru SSILD, you've done a WILD.

Yeah - but that is only the one outcome as I understand it.
The other is reaching the LD per DILD after falling asleep after the cycles:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Iron

What happens next

One key characteristic of SSILD is that it is neither a WILD nor DILD technique. It is a hybrid.

As such, it is important to become familiar with all the possible scenarios so you will maximize your chances.


1. Hypnagogia: when we enter a dream consciously, we often encounter various unusual hypnagogic sensations. These include the sensation of falling, floating, seeing lights and images, hearing sharp noises, and many more. In fact, sometimes you may encounter sensations so strange that they are beyond words. When we encounter these sensations, chances are we are already in a dream, or getting really close. SSILD is known to cause hypnagogia during the Cycles (although this effect should NOT be sought after). It's also not uncommon for you to wake up suddenly while being bombarded by intense hypnagogic sensations. When this happens you should not become excited. Be a passive observer and wait for the sensations to amplify. You could also nudge them a little bit mentally, but do not overdo it. As soon as the sensations become clearly identifiable you should be able to perform a successful reality check and get up. Typically the dream will start from your bedroom because subconsciously that's where you expect you will be. You can also stay in bed longer and use visualization to create a dream scene manually. In any event, it is important for you to stay calm when encountering hypnagogia. Do not speak to yourselves or analyze it mentally as doing so can cause the sensations to fade and eventually wake you up.

2. False Awakening: SSILD is known to cause a lot of FAs. Not any FA, but some super-realistic ones! A typical scenario goes like this -- you finished doing SSILD and fell asleep. Then suddenly you wake up. No lucid dreams, perhaps not even a normal dream! Feeling disappointed you get out of the bed... then you wake up again! It was all but a dream! SSILD's ability to frequently create this type of FAs have been well-documented by now. Therefore, you should definitely develop the habit of performing a reality check upon each awakening after doing SSILD, no matter how convinced you are about your not being in a dream. Another possible scenario is that you slip into sleep during a SSILD cycle, and an FA immediately takes over. When this happens you may suddenly feel awake and it seems you are about to suffer insomnia. Some users complained that SSILD was causing them to lose sleep, only later found out they had been doing SSILD cycles in their dreams! Once you learn to catch these FAs your chance of success will be greatly improved.

3. DILD: When you fall asleep from SSILD, you enter your dreams with heightened awareness. As a result, lucid dreams occur. This is called Dream Initiated Lucid Dream (DILD). With heightened awareness, you may be able to spot oddities in dreams and in turn become lucid. It is also very common for spontaneous lucid dreams to occur -- you suddenly become lucid for no apparent reason.

4. Real Awakening: You wake up again after doing SSILD. You do a reality check and this time it is real. Do not despair. You still have chances. Try to stay still, and immediately relax your head, allowing the back of it to sink into the pillow. Then you need to perform a few extra medium-paced SSILD cycles. At this stage it is quite possible for you to encounter strong hypnagogia sensations. If not, just finish the cycles and go to sleep. You will have a much higher chance to succeed this time.

So - I sort of follow the definition of a hybrid technique - and will begin to experiment.

Sorry - I hope this is not intrusive now Sageous?

So I attempted another WILD this morning, did 30 minute WBTB, 5 up out of bed, 25 laying aware on my back. I managed to make it to entering the dream, but my eyes were I guess closed in the dream and everything was black, I thought maybe I should wait until I feel stable.

Eventually I kind of just fell out of the dream without seeing anything but I knew I went lucid because I just know the feeling. Should I just trust myself and open my eyes, or repeat mantra/visualize for a bit longer then open my "dream eyes"?

I've heard people say just imagine that your eyes are already open and it won't be dark, I wish I would've remembered to try that but, eh. Maybe try using other senses to stabilize then open my eyes?

Just a little thing, not sure if you covered it in your class, thanks.

Edit - I also find SSILD cycles to be helpful if done right. If I focus too much into the SSILD cycles, I can't fall asleep.

Originally Posted by StephL

Sorry - I hope this is not intrusive now Sageous?

Not at all! I am quite familiar with Cosmic Iron"s technique, and disagree with very little of it. Indeed, if you look closely, you'll see that SSILD is quite similar to the WILD plan I suggest -- perhaps with one or two more bells and whistles than I would recommend, but still quite similar.

... so,no worries...

Originally Posted by EmptyBucket

So I attempted another WILD this morning, did 30 minute WBTB, 5 up out of bed, 25 laying aware on my back. I managed to make it to entering the dream, but my eyes were I guess closed in the dream and everything was black, I thought maybe I should wait until I feel stable.

Eventually I kind of just fell out of the dream without seeing anything but I knew I went lucid because I just know the feeling. Should I just trust myself and open my eyes, or repeat mantra/visualize for a bit longer then open my "dream eyes"?

Yes, you should have done that, and perhaps should have taken it one step further by remembering that there were no "dream eyes" to open in the first place. Attaching waking-life physical attributes to your dreaming senses always seemed to be a limiting factor to me. If you can avoid it and simply remember to be aware within a dream, you might go farther than if you simply open imaginary eyes.

In other words: yes, you should have trusted yourself, but trust your actual self, and not yet another invented construct (those dream eyes) to maybe possibly help you form a dream. Your "self" will guarantee a dream; your "dream eyes" will only throw up another image that might help -- I suggest that you go with the "will" instead of the "might" every time, if you can.

I've heard people say just imagine that your eyes are already open and it won't be dark, I wish I would've remembered to try that but, eh. Maybe try using other senses to stabilize then open my eyes?

That's a fine suggestion, but, again, it might be better to simply imagine the dream than to attach "eyes" that must be present and functioning to lend light to your dream; that only complicates things.

Look at it this way: when you are dreaming -- even if there's nothing to see -- your perception is functioning just fine, and it needs no eyes to do so. The dream is there for you to experience, and, unlike the waking world, it is a part of you and requires no "seeing" apparatus. This might sound more complicated than just opening a pair of DC eyes, but in the end it is far simpler, because all it requires is a modicum of confidence.

So if it's dark, or there is no dream scene, simply keep yourself calm and await the impending dream. I may have said this before, but I've found that this quiet -- often NREM -- period before the dream can be quite peaceful and refreshing. A little "nothing" now and then can be very nice; try not to sell it short!

Just a little thing, not sure if you covered it in your class, thanks.

I'm pretty sure I didn't, but my class was not about covering everything, just the basic stuff that I felt was necessary to complete WILD dive.

I also find SSILD cycles to be helpful if done right. If I focus too much into the SSILD cycles, I can't fall asleep.

The don't focus so much on the SSILD cycles!

P.S. And yes, EmptyBucket, dream eyes or no I think you can slot this experience into the "successful WILD" column... just try to include a dream next time!

Thanks Sageous - but he actually makes the point very clearly and repeatedly of not taking bells and whistles any serious, not expecting them either, I think!
It is true - there are very many similarities - maybe even more than you expect?

Where the difference lies, in my eyes, is that he does not come at it with real-life-awareness and memory practice while the day.
And that is for sure something very important to you.
Also philosophically - not just for the sake of a priming for LD.
Am I correct with this?

And I want to say - I seriously am so thankful for coming across this forum, and you especially!
That you know, I hope!
smile.gif

And not only you - what a place!!

Originally Posted by StephL

Thanks Sageous - but he actually makes the point very clearly and repeatedly of not taking bells and whistles any serious, not expecting them either, I think!
It is true - there are very many similarities - maybe even more than you expect?

No more than I expect at all.

Since WILD -- holding onto self-awareness as you fall asleep and enter a dream -- is a fairly narrow term, I'm not surprised at all that there are similarities; there should be.

Nor do I care; I am not in a contest here. Just as I didn't go on CosmicIron's forum and tell him what's wrong or different about his instructions when compared to mine, I don't expect him to come here and challenge my method because it is different than his. What I offered is what I offered, nothing more. Remember, the course is called "WILD According to Sageous," and not "The All-Inclusive, Comprehensive, Nothing is Left Out WILD Course," and was never intended to be such. I sincerely hope you, FryingMan, and any others who seem to think I am intentionally leaving things out can understand that.

And all apologies to CosmicIron and his students about the "bells and Whistles comment," that was poorly phrased, in retrospect.

Where the difference lies, in my eyes, is that he does not come at it with real-life-awareness and memory practice while the day.
And that is for sure something very important to you.
Also philosophically - not just for the sake of a priming for LD.
Am I correct with this?

Yes you are.

And in my mind omitting daytime work leaves out a major component not just of WILD, but LD'ing in general. I would not recommend SSILD as the only route to LD'ing, only as a helpful technique (and it is) for people already doing day work, just as I wouldn't recommend ADA as a sole route to lucidity.

I am convinced that consistent, long-term success with lucidity lies in developing the fundamentals, and not in some clever technique. I've said this many, many times, and do not stray from it. Techniques like SSILD are certainly sound, but without any mental prep during the day, I think that success would be limited to the short-term, placebo effect variety. That's fine, and it makes for some quick fun for dreamers and lots of breathless testimonials, but how much is the student really learning?

Bottom line: If you think SSILD is the way for you to do WILD, that's just fine, do that. WILD is WILD, after all. I simply recommend that you also do waking-life mental prep to get your mind in the right place for WILD, however you attempt it. That is really what my class is about.


I think this will be the last time I defend my work here; that was not my plan for this forum, and definitely not my plan for this thread. I hope you guys don't mind.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sadly, it [sleep] can be the highest hurdle of them all sometimes. All I can say is keep experimenting and changing up your patterns and schedules, and eventually you'll find your sweat spot (or, more likely, finally condition both your body and anxious nerves into accepting the notion of a return to sleep, and WILD).

Interesting that this situation still continues after the WILD attempt marathon of 1.5 weeks ago: waking after around 5-6 hours of sleep, and I can't seem to make it all the way back in to sleep after that. I can fairly reliably and reasonably quickly get to the first relaxing stages where time seems to pass faster than it seems, where I get (sometimes a lot) of HI/HH, but right at the "drop" into sleep or just before it I catch myself and come back to alertness. Happened again just this morning in a late morning nap attempt: I even felt the little "falling" sensation that probably would have been the descent into REM, but that woke me up.

It's not like I'm staring with wide open eyes super wired with racing thoughts, tossing and turning -- I do a reasonable job (can use improvement I'm sure) of entering the calm, relaxed phase, trying (but not trying to try, at least I'm trying not to try to try !!!!!!!) just to "let it happen." I hold a position past the point of the desire to roll over, until I'm really uncomfortable and if I don't change the position the discomfort will keep me up. I can generally hold a single position at least 30 minutes before needing to move. On my back I think I can hold it longer but I snore on my back and that wakes both me and my wife up so on-the-back is limited to when I have the bed alone.

There's some tension or attention turned on and I don't know yet where it is. Maybe this is a good thing, and perhaps my oscillations between "fall asleep too fast" and "can't fall totally asleep" mean I'm slowly converging on just the amount of awareness that will allow the transition, and maybe that means I'll start making that transition with awareness and that will mean LDs! That would be nice.

Maybe it'll just take time to perfect that conditioning...

^^ Yes, this definitely seems like something that will take time and experimentation, perhaps to the point where you convince, through intention and repetition perhaps, your mind and body to finally agree that it's okay to go back to sleep. Because of this these next thoughts are likely academic, but here they are anyway:

Have you tried DEILD? Probably, I guess. But if you haven't, doing DEILD right when you wake from a dream in the morning -- while you are still half asleep -- might bypass the whole getting back to sleep problem. Yes, it is true that DEILD is a whole 'nother timing issue in itself, but it might be a possible new direction in which to go.

Now for the bit you don't want to hear:

I'm not sure if I said this before, but your body might be telling you that it's time to focus on DILD rather than WILD. Not that I'm calling you old, but as you age your body does require less sleep. Perhaps this inability to do what was relatively easy earlier in life is simply a reflection not of some error in focus or timing, but in physiology. I could be wrong, but it might be worth considering if only to have a tangible hook on which to hang this nagging problem?

All in all, though, it seems you're going to have your answers shortly, whatever they may be. I do admire your persistence!

I have tried DEILD a few times upon exit from LDs: eyes closed, body didn't move, but didn't make it back in. Once from a ND where I recognized that I'd woken up, still had eyes closed, and still had not moved, but I was really uncomfortable and nature was calling quite urgently so didn't make it back in. So just a few times, really. Upping the DEILD attempts at the cost of recall was something I wasn't willing to do before but I may start doing that from time to time, so it's a good suggestion!

Re: physiology: I sure hope not! The data I think *may* indicate otherwise: why could I wake up 3-5 times per night and recall/journal, about 3 months ago, even after 9-10 hours of sleep sometimes with no trouble going back to sleep, at the start of LD training, but when I started doing SSILD and/or MILD before returning to sleep, or trying WILDs, the sleep issues all of a sudden started? Especially WILDs: before I ever tried a WILD I never "watched" myself falling asleep. I think I've developed a bad habit of "catching" myself from falling asleep to make sure I'm aware during the transition. This leads me to believe it's mental from the stimulation that doing these techs / approaches require, or from conscious or subconscious excitement about expecting LDs. It may be that physiology is hovering there right between the barrier of the difference between simply going back to bed and doing tech's requiring mental activity, which would be very depressing, since even DILD is affected.

Besides, there is an existence proof of someone a tad older than I am (you?) who WILD and DILD away every night .

And don't you have a self-described shaky relationship with sleep? How do *you* deal with it, other than melatonin? Have you adjusted your LD schedule in a way that you found works?

Just curious: if I can't get back to sleep after the 5 hour waking, how does focusing on WILD help vs. DILD? Getting back to sleep is crucial in either case I think, isn't it? Aren't all the great REMs there waiting from the 6-8 hours of the cycle...? My own answer is that putting off emphasis on WILDs will help me to forget to watch myself while falling asleep. But I'd like to know if you had a different point in mind....

And today: slept about 6 hours [no wakings during night, I practically passed out, 3 hours at the gym last night], got up, did stuff around the house, nothing too stimulating, still felt tired a couple hours later and had the house to myself, and *almost* fell asleep (got too the "fall", and something went off: HERE IT IS!). I've taken naps before not that long ago where I successfully dreamt some more.

I just feel it in my bones: it is my mind that is not quite right for sleeping, it's not a body thing -- there is some background tension/attention that I'm not relaxing, something is sitting there ready to pounce when the sleep transition starts: HERE IT COMES! GET READY!. That's my story for now and I'm sticking to it But I am interested in the questions above, thanks!

I will add that I'm still perhaps adjusting to LD life in the city. When I started out in LD training, I was on vacation in the country, I got to bed at the same time every night, nights were black with no external lights, absolutely silent outside, sleeping in a room by myself in a bed by myself, basically zero distractions, tons of fresh air and sunlight.

In the city the street noise is terrible, street lights blast into the windows, sleep in bed with wife who sometimes moves/snores/makes noise/gets up sometimes (like we all do), and I have yet to get to bed at the same time two nights in a row it seems. And I work a desk job. At least now I'm getting regular exercise and I think it's helping. I'm certainly losing weight and have a more positive outlook on life so it's helping at least in that way .

First of all - I will read your whole guide once more.
And very sorry..

flowers.gif

Originally Posted by Sageous

No more than I expect at all.

Since WILD -- holding onto self-awareness as you fall asleep and enter a dream -- is a fairly narrow term, I'm not surprised at all that there are similarities; there should be.

Nor do I care; I am not in a contest here. Just as I didn't go on CosmicIron's forum and tell him what's wrong or different about his instructions when compared to mine, I don't expect him to come here and challenge my method because it is different than his. What I offered is what I offered, nothing more. Remember, the course is called "WILD According to Sageous," and not "The All-Inclusive, Comprehensive, Nothing is Left Out WILD Course," and was never intended to be such. I sincerely hope you, FryingMan, and any others who seem to think I am intentionally leaving things out can understand that.

And all apologies to CosmicIron and his students about the "bells and Whistles comment," that was poorly phrased, in retrospect.

I am really sorry to have upset you - and I can fully understand it.

But thank you for reacting and explaining - I do understand a lot of things much better now.

And it doesn´t make sense to ponder similarities, when the difference is that huge and eminent.
Somehow I couldn´t feel myself into you there - like how would I react in such a case.
I was blind in a way.

Originally Posted by Sageous

...

And in my mind omitting daytime work leaves out a major component not just of WILD, but LD'ing in general. I would not recommend SSILD as the only route to LD'ing, only as a helpful technique (and it is) for people already doing day work, just as I wouldn't recommend ADA as a sole route to lucidity.Where the difference lies, in my eyes, is that he does not come at it with real-life-awareness and memory practice while the day.

Actually - you know, why I want to work on awareness and memory definitively anyway?
Because while I am awake - it makes me more happy.
I notice more of the world and might come to understand more of my interaction with it.

But like we said in the LUCI thread - I do not think, that SSILD has much on offer when it comes to dream-control.
I will do my best in daytime work - no question

Originally Posted by Sageous

I am convinced that consistent, long-term success with lucidity lies in developing the fundamentals, and not in some clever technique. I've said this many, many times, and do not stray from it. Techniques like SSILD are certainly sound, but without any mental prep during the day, I think that success would be limited to the short-term, placebo effect variety. That's fine, and it makes for some quick fun for dreamers and lots of breathless testimonials, but how much is the student really learning?

Really thank you for your guide with it´s depths and farther reaching style.

I suppose, that the SSILD technique with the cycles might be a bit like we imagined LUCI to effect LDing.
a) probably works to get you there
b) won´t lead you into it any further - there you have to go and search for mental-prep work on your own then - come here for example..

Why I came up with it was really about the cycle thing - and it sounds like a good small range technique for that exact short time window.
We have been wondering about this and you gave the main advice to try out for yourself what works.

So - I will try if these cycles work for me - and but re-read your guide as well - esp. the Mantra section.
I sort of know, mantras work already - but I can´t get one together somehow..

Originally Posted by Sageous

Bottom line: If you think SSILD is the way for you to do WILD, that's just fine, do that. WILD is WILD, after all. I simply recommend that you also do waking-life mental prep to get your mind in the right place for WILD, however you attempt it. That is really what my class is about.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I think this will be the last time I defend my work here; that was not my plan for this forum, and definitely not my plan for this thread. I hope you guys don't mind.

Uuups - that sounds as if this has a history to it..
It is crap, that I have caused bad feelings - but - you know - I find to defend one´s work is maybe the best method to be understood.
So do not say that you won´t explain yourself any more, please!

Because - yeah - because this might help someone reading it, understand you and your method better.
And that´s what we are here for in the end.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Re: physiology: I sure hope not! The data I think *may* indicate otherwise: why could I wake up 3-5 times per night and recall/journal, about 3 months ago, even after 9-10 hours of sleep sometimes with no trouble going back to sleep, at the start of LD training, but when I started doing SSILD and/or MILD before returning to sleep, or trying WILDs, the sleep issues all of a sudden started? Especially WILDs: before I ever tried a WILD I never "watched" myself falling asleep. I think I've developed a bad habit of "catching" myself from falling asleep to make sure I'm aware during the transition. This leads me to believe it's mental from the stimulation that doing these techs / approaches require, or from conscious or subconscious excitement about expecting LDs. It may be that physiology is hovering there right between the barrier of the difference between simply going back to bed and doing tech's requiring mental activity, which would be very depressing, since even DILD is affected.

Well. Given that info, then I guess it's still on you! Though physiology might still have a hand in it, it does sound like that "catching yourself" thing may be more of an issue... which is a good thing, I guess, because soving the problem is still in your hands.

Keep in mind that physiological stuff isn't always gradual; some changes can come quickly.

Besides, there is an existence proof of someone a tad older than I am (you?) who WILD and DILD away every night .

True. But WILD's are a lot harder for me than they used to be for other physiological reasons, and I was required take a couple of extra steps to compensate for changes my body's foisted upon me. DILD's, BTW, are unaffected, and likely would not be too hampered by a shortened sleep cycle (more in a sec).

And don't you have a self-described shaky relationship with sleep? How do *you* deal with it, other than melatonin? Have you adjusted your LD schedule in a way that you found works?

Other than melatonin, I shifted my sleep schedule before WILD attempts, to the point where I go to bed at about 3am and get up before 8am. I also consigned myself a long time ago to the fact that it was going to take me at least an hour to get back to sleep after lying down post WBTB... that was a difficult thing to finally accept, but once I did, I found it easy to maintain enough patience to hold still for an hour or more.

Beyond that I do only one other thing: on the occasional day, maybe one in five, where I know that I either won't get back to sleep or that my mind is just not in the right place, I simply opt to postpone the WILD attempt.

Just curious: if I can't get back to sleep after the 5 hour waking, how does focusing on WILD help vs. DILD? Getting back to sleep is crucial in either case I think, isn't it? Aren't all the great REMs there waiting from the 6-8 hours of the cycle...? My own answer is that putting off emphasis on WILDs will help me to forget to watch myself while falling asleep. But I'd like to know if you had a different point in mind....

DILD should be less affected by this problem because you do not have to do a WBTB to enjoy one. Indeed, if do your waking-life activities (RC's, RRC's) during the day, and MILD exercises the night before, and still do your journaling during brief nighttime awakenings, DILD's ought to be fairly achievable. They're more accidental than WILD's are, sure, but at least you'll be getting lucid.

And today: slept about 6 hours [no wakings during night, I practically passed out, 3 hours at the gym last night], got up, did stuff around the house, nothing too stimulating, still felt tired a couple hours later and had the house to myself, and *almost* fell asleep (got too the "fall", and something went off: HERE IT IS!). I've taken naps before not that long ago where I successfully dreamt some more.

I just feel it in my bones: it is my mind that is not quite right for sleeping, it's not a body thing -- there is some background tension/attention that I'm not relaxing, something is sitting there ready to pounce when the sleep transition starts: HERE IT COMES! GET READY!. That's my story for now and I'm sticking to it But I am interested in the questions above, thanks!

Yep, it probably is all in your head. I have a feeling that if you keep working at it, the more experience you get with timing and blocking that urge to catch yourself, the easier simply falling to sleep will become. In other words, time will be your ally.

I will add that I'm still perhaps adjusting to LD life in the city. When I started out in LD training, I was on vacation in the country, I got to bed at the same time every night, nights were black with no external lights, absolutely silent outside, sleeping in a room by myself in a bed by myself, basically zero distractions, tons of fresh air and sunlight.

That is a much better environment for LD'ing, I think...

In the city the street noise is terrible, street lights blast into the windows, sleep in bed with wife who sometimes moves/snores/makes noise/gets up sometimes (like we all do), and I have yet to get to bed at the same time two nights in a row it seems. And I work a desk job. At least now I'm getting regular exercise and I think it's helping. I'm certainly losing weight and have a more positive outlook on life so it's helping at least in that way

Yeah, city, family, and work schedules can definitely get in the way; but they're just hurdles, not permanent barriers (ie, get thicker curtains, or a sleep mask; invest in a white noise machine to cancel out city noises; maybe find a room of your own for WILD attempts -- I've done each of these myself, and more, because sometimes you gotta); jump the hurdles one at a time, with patience, and you might see some success, even in the city.

(Hello, all! I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm doing this wrong.)

A bit of background: I was in to lucid dreaming a couple of years ago, but apart from spontaneously becoming lucid during nightmares , I never had much success. I started reading about it again recently and am determined to have a lucid dream. I have worked reality checks into my day and started journaling my dreams. I have very good recall and can remember at least 2 or 3 dreams most days; last week there was a morning that I recalled 9 dreams. The few lucid dreams I have had thus far were very short because I either lost lucidity or woke up.

So that brings me to last night. I had planned to attempt a WILD and went to bed early, setting a gentle alarm for 6 hours later. I had an intention set. 5 hours after I went to sleep, I realized that I was awake and just lying there, so I decided to take the opportunity and do my WILD early. I was really tired but mentally aware; I think I had been awake for at least 10 minutes. I got a drink of water, wrapped a black headband around my eyes (like a sleep mask. I didn't have one, but I got a real one today.) I progressively tensed and released all of my muscles until I was deeply relaxed, then began to visualize myself walking on a beach. For a while, I just felt numb. Then my eyelids started twitching rapidly. I tried to ignore it, but it was extremely difficult. After a couple of minutes, the twitching went away. I did a couple of RCs and realized quickly that I was still awake. Frustrated, I started over in a more comfortable position with a different visualization. Again, I got to the point of eyes twitching but just could not ignore it and lost my progress. At that point, I figured that I would be best off trying again a different night and went back to sleep. There was a very loud storm going on, so maybe that was keeping me awake, but I've tried WILDing once before and experienced the same problem with the eye movements.

So, my question is this: what can I do to get past this stage? I'm going to try again tonight with a proper sleep mask, so hopefully that will be helpful. Aside from that, is there anything I can do that will help me ignore it?

Thanks in advance. :)