Thread: What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

Thank you for your answers and advice, Sageous!
I will go about it!
smile.gif

Soo - new "problem" - the effort yesternight didn´t take place - but this last night I tried WILD again.
And I find it went quite well - up to one point always:

I was relaxed, didn´t feel my body any more - at one time it felt as if I was spinning slowly horizontally - more my head seemed to make a left-turn with my upper body. But not a lot - I tried nudging mentally - but bit more, and I would have moved.

Buut - maybe 5 times or so - I started "making something" out of what I saw on the back of my eyelids.
After some time of black - there were black and white and grey clouds swirling about - I could make these take on forms - and with a certain complexity - a real scenery appeared, and got clearer and clearer - each time another one.

But it was so weird - every time I came to see real details full colours and all - there was an almost physical surge to draw me into the scene, which before I had only witnessed "from nowhere" so to speak.
And every time, I just could not let it happen, not on purpose, it was more or less subconscious direct reaction.
I sucked myself back out.
It was really like having a short startle reaction, physical arousal went up only a bit - and like on a gummy-band - I got my consciousness back in my body on my bed.
And had to more or less start all over again.
As said - it was at least 5 times, and I really tried to be prepared for it, and let it happen the next time..
Nope.

Is this how it feels, when it works, as well?
And I just need to let myself get sucked in without excitement?
I couldn´t do away with the excitement - it felt like I was sucked from location to location in in real-life!
Not fear - but a general alarm-situation.
How can I counter that?

It felt as if I just about stopped it off, before a physical sucking feeling would have followed.
How does it feel, when you transit?
Unfortunately I went to bed so late yesterday (daaarts..wink.gif) - that I decided, I should get up to the day, and not turn around and hope for DILD.

Maybe closest to an actual WILD yet? Unfortunately again no LD last night!




I´m on an edit-walk-around through my three classes - NyxCC in Intro and fogelbise in DILD have just received not something specifically written over the day differently - but I almost copy-pasted this time - and why - and - while doing that - ended up to think of saying thank you specifically to the fact, that I have you three wonderful people as direct guides and teachers. I feel very privileged and know what a valuable present you make me with this!
Thank you!

But it was so weird - every time I came to see real details full colours and all - there was an almost physical surge to draw me into the scene, which before I had only witnessed "from nowhere" so to speak.
And every time, I just could not let it happen, not on purpose, it was more or less subconscious direct reaction.
I sucked myself back out.
It was really like having a short startle reaction, physical arousal went up only a bit - and like on a gummy-band - I got my consciousness back in my body on my bed.
And had to more or less start all over again.
As said - it was at least 5 times, and I really tried to be prepared for it, and let it happen the next time..
Nope.

If you figure this out, let me know . I think *this* in particular, letting yourself get sucked in to the dream while still aware without waking yourself up, is the infamous "balancing act" that is WILD. I had exactly the same experience as you, many times, while trying WILDs. I found it even carried over into non-WILD just trying to go to sleep when not WILDing, which led to many poor-sleep nights. After staying away from WILD attempts for a while it eventually wore off.

I think you "just" need to relax more, and I think this only comes with lots of attempts so that these sensations are not so novel any more, and you build up more resolve not to react but to remain passive and "let it happen." But that's just my $0.02.

Your experience as I see it was not so much close to a WILD, Steph, but an actual successful WILD dive...with one small exception.

It seems that you managed to fall asleep while maintaining awareness (the WILD part), but there was no dream "waiting" for you -- in other words, you were in NREM, or delta sleep.

Much of what you describe above sounds remarkably like many of my excursions into delta. So there is a chance that you did everything right, but your body simply wasn't in its REM period yet. Trying to form a dream without the presence of REM can indeed yield the results that you got.

I think that "startle" reaction you kept getting was probably pretty normal too, because your mind was in a truly novel place, and focusing on it might have required too much of the stuff that wakes you up.

How to avoid this? Patience. If you're having trouble finding your dream, or are encountering odd phenomena like you did, simply assure yourself that it will pass and your dream will eventually form (or, perhaps, your dreaming mind will eventually permit you to form a dream). In other words, think of events like this for now* as just more noise, and ignore them. By ignoring them, you should reduce the overreaction you experienced and be able to hold your focus until the dream actually starts.

* Note that I said "for now," above. That's because later, when WILD is second nature to you, you might find delta sleep an interesting condition to explore and enjoy. For now it might be an obstacle, but later it might be something very, very interesting!


Okay, ^^ that was my "official" answer. Now here's a bit more detail (sorry if I repeat some):

Originally Posted by StephL

But it was so weird - every time I came to see real details full colours and all - there was an almost physical surge to draw me into the scene, which before I had only witnessed "from nowhere" so to speak.

This bit was interesting, this surge to draw you into the scene you had created. I can't quite identify what might have happened here -- it was obviously a "you had to be there" moment. But for the dream to give you the impression of drawing you in might imply that something else was going on ... like maybe your unconscious was trying to redirect you from your NREM pause toward the "REM files" in your brain? If it happens again, I suggest you trust your dreaming mind and let it pull you in (of course this will mean defeating that "startle" reaction, but that probably won't be a problem, with practice).

Is this how it feels, when it works, as well?

Not necessarily. This is how it felt when it worked this time. Other times you may feel nothing at all during the transition, or much more HI but in completely other forms. The key is to not worry about how anything feels, and simply maintain focus and patience until you are firmly within your dream.

And I just need to let myself get sucked in without excitement?
I couldn´t do away with the excitement - it felt like I was sucked from location to location in in real-life!
Not fear - but a general alarm-situation.
How can I counter that?

Though I just suggested that you allow yourself to just get sucked in -- and agree that it should be done without distracting excitement -- I really suggest that you just calmly observe that which is trying to suck you in. Stay focused on your dream, on your goals, and let whatever is happening round you happen. There is a chance that this image that wants to "suck you in" is just more HI, or (sort of counter to what I said above) a misdirection to a place you might not want to be, just yet. So observe it, and let it suck you in if there is no avoiding it, but don't pursue it if it doesn't seem like the place you want to go. And above all don't overreact or become fearful -- remember always that all this stuff going on is a part of You, regardless of what it seems, so there is nothing to fear.

I hope all that made some sense... I'm a bit pressed for time right now and not feeling very thorough. I'm sure you'll follow-up, though, if my thoughts seemed to be a bit loopy.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Your experience as I see it was not so much close to a WILD, Steph, but an actual successful WILD dive...with one small exception.

It seems that you managed to fall asleep while maintaining awareness (the WILD part), but there was no dream "waiting" for you -- in other words, you were in NREM, or delta sleep.

Much of what you describe above sounds remarkably like many of my excursions into delta. So there is a chance that you did everything right, but your body simply wasn't in its REM period yet. Trying to form a dream without the presence of REM can indeed yield the results that you got.

I think that "startle" reaction you kept getting was probably pretty normal too, because your mind was in a truly novel place, and focusing on it might have required too much of the stuff that wakes you up.

How to avoid this? Patience. If you're having trouble finding your dream, or are encountering odd phenomena like you did, simply assure yourself that it will pass and your dream will eventually form (or, perhaps, your dreaming mind will eventually permit you to form a dream). In other words, think of events like this for now* as just more noise, and ignore them. By ignoring them, you should reduce the overreaction you experienced and be able to hold your focus until the dream actually starts.

* Note that I said "for now," above. That's because later, when WILD is second nature to you, you might find delta sleep an interesting condition to explore and enjoy. For now it might be an obstacle, but later it might be something very, very interesting!

For some reason - can´t really tell - this sounds as if there might be something to it.
Maybe it was NREM!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Okay, ^^ that was my "official" answer. Now here's a bit more detail (sorry if I repeat some):

This bit was interesting, this surge to draw you into the scene you had created. I can't quite identify what might have happened here -- it was obviously a "you had to be there" moment. But for the dream to give you the impression of drawing you in might imply that something else was going on ... like maybe your unconscious was trying to redirect you from your NREM pause toward the "REM files" in your brain? If it happens again, I suggest you trust your dreaming mind and let it pull you in (of course this will mean defeating that "startle" reaction, but that probably won't be a problem, with practice).

Not necessarily. This is how it felt when it worked this time. Other times you may feel nothing at all during the transition, or much more HI but in completely other forms. The key is to not worry about how anything feels, and simply maintain focus and patience until you are firmly within your dream.


Though I just suggested that you allow yourself to just get sucked in -- and agree that it should be done without distracting excitement -- I really suggest that you just calmly observe that which is trying to suck you in. Stay focused on your dream, on your goals, and let whatever is happening round you happen. There is a chance that this image that wants to "suck you in" is just more HI, or (sort of counter to what I said above) a misdirection to a place you might not want to be, just yet. So observe it, and let it suck you in if there is no avoiding it, but don't pursue it if it doesn't seem like the place you want to go. And above all don't overreact or become fearful -- remember always that all this stuff going on is a part of You, regardless of what it seems, so there is nothing to fear.

I hope all that made some sense... I'm a bit pressed for time right now and not feeling very thorough. I'm sure you'll follow-up, though, if my thoughts seemed to be a bit loopy.

Thank you!
Okay - so - this might have been HI - which I should have best just watched, and not tried to consciously enter.
Or it was me entering consciously into NREM and being confused, by how different it felt (intuitively something tells me, there is something to that.. )
Or it was dream-possibilities - I wanted very much to be drawn in - they were all quite appealing - only one was a dull-looking forest by night, but I thought - well - I can go from there. Maybe I wanted too much/intensely..?
If it was the latter - dream-chances - maybe something like expressively thinking out to myself "I am there!" could help?

There was no fear - it was really a sort of surprise that startled me physically - not surmountable in that moment psychologically.
This drawing in feeling was initiated by me intentionally. The snapping back was somehow elastic, weird..
Maybe this was too much "action" from my side and not enough "letting it happen" - I could have gone on watching.
Would that maybe have been best for all three scenarios - HI, NREM and dream-onset?
But the scenes were so lively - I thought if I let them pass, I miss out on an entry-point..

Hach - easy it is not.
But something is happening - I make small steps with new experiences - traipsing about the perimeter or something - hopefully one day soon I step over the WILD swell.

Originally Posted by StephL

Or it was dream-possibilities - I wanted very much to be drawn in - they were all quite appealing - only one was a dull-looking forest by night, but I thought - well - I can go from there. Maybe I wanted too much/intensely..?
If it was the latter - dream-chances - maybe something like expressively thinking out to myself "I am there!" could help?

Yes, sometimes wanting too intensely -- call it centering on desire rather than your self, or the dream -- can indeed shake loose the moment. Desire in dreams is a good thing in LD'ing, as long as it is moderated, perhaps held to the subtle realm of expectation and intention (expectation's quiet expression).

This drawing in feeling was initiated by me intentionally. The snapping back was somehow elastic, weird..
Maybe this was too much "action" from my side and not enough "letting it happen" - I could have gone on watching.

Oh. I missed that. That does make it much different, and more familiar to me. That snapping back could very well be a symptom of doing too much at a time when "letting it happen" is critical.

Would that maybe have been best for all three scenarios - HI, NREM and dream-onset?
But the scenes were so lively - I thought if I let them pass, I miss out on an entry-point..

Yes. Just letting your body and brain go about their business (HI, dreamlets, NREM pauses, all that noise) tends to clear the path of least resistance to the actual dream. Yes, that stuff is fascinating, and you will likely be exploring/creating all those tempting entry points one day. But for now let your mind and body do their thing and just patiently observe -- a valid entry point that cannot be missed will come, eventually.

Hach - easy it is not.

The best things never, ever, are.

But something is happening - I make small steps with new experiences - traipsing about the perimeter or something - hopefully one day soon I step over the WILD swell.

It will happen, no doubt. And one day shortly after that you'll wonder how you ever imagined that WILD swell as something so high...

Ah - I planned to write something a bit more in detail for in here - with some questions maybe too - but now I am too tired - had some darting visitors again.

Buut - last night a bit of lucidity after a longer stretch of no success whatsoever - WILD-try initiated DILD again - unfortunately - and my own mistake..
Anyway: Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views - StephL - Dream Journals
Been doing a bit of snowman-efforts..

Edit: And I won quite a bit more than I lost - happy days..

Actually, that was nice work, Steph: remember that it doesn't really matter how you get lucid, as long as you do; so if your failed WILD efforts lead to DILDs, then all the better!

I've been having some luck with "the other WILD", DEILD. I figured the dream I had last night was worth sharing.

I used autosuggestion to wake up from a dream in which I was in a movie studio fixing some wiring. For reasons best known to Jung and God, wires and cables are a reliable dream sign for me. Recognizing it as a good opportunity for a lucid dream, I lay perfectly still, visualized the dream, and went back into it after a minute or two. I decided "heck with these wires, I'm going outside!" So I went to the elevator and pressed ground.

When the elevator door opened, a little kid boy poked his head in and told me that if I really was lucid, I'd find a paradise on the 7th floor. This interested me, so I pressed the 7 button and went up to the 7th floor. The door opened, and I stepped out into a "paradise"... but it was a phony paradise... like Disneyland... fake tropical plants and streams. But figured I would look around.

I came across a Jacuzzi, and weirdly, Justin Bieber was soaking in the steaming water. Seeing I was now wearing a bathing suit, I joined him. Justin said he had been waiting for me, and wondered what took me so long. I got this to mean that he was criticizing me for not recognizing dream signs more quickly. He said "come on", and we got out, and he led me up a spiral staircase with a shiny railing. He told me to pay attention to the feel of the railing on my palm. I did, and everything went more vivid. I got really excited, and he told me to slow down and take a few deep breaths... which I did.

We arrived at a platform high in the sky. I asked him what we were doing there and he told me he was going to teach me how to fly. He took my hand and we jumped off and flew around with him instructing me to do different things. Then we floated down to a grassy meadow and I said to him, you're not really Justin Bieber, are you? At that point he morphed into DV member Slash 112. This really surprised me, and being grateful for the instruction, I hugged him.

He says, that if we're going to have sex (which wasn't why I hugged him) one of us would have to be a girl. I told him, "I don't want to be a girl." He said, "I don't want to be a girl either, so I guess nobody is having sex." We both laughed, and I woke up in bed.

I was able to go back into a new dream immediately, but I seemed lost in a weird building, with very little dream control, and it was a ho-hum dream. The only exciting thing was there was this fierce explosion of sound, and a bunch of terrified cats ran by me as if their fur was on fire.

Reflecting on it all, I realized that Slash112 was in the dream because I had watched a couple of his videos just before going to bed. And there were other things in the dream that I could see were there as a result of things I had seen or done that day. Justin Bieber was there because I watched a kid on Australia's got Talent sing one of his songs on YouTube, and the judges talked about him. The shiny railing was from a real life building I was recently... and much of the "paradise" was Disneyland.

It seems like during REM there's this big pile of bits and pieces of the last day's memories, and also old scraps of memory that were stirred up by the events of the day. As our attention goes into the pile, we use our mind to form them into plots and patterns... because that's one of the things that the mind does naturally... tries to make everything make sense, even when it doesn't make sense. When lucid, we do that more knowingly, of course. At least it seems that's how LDs work to me.

Seeing more and more of how the LD thing works and the major part expectations play in it all makes me wonder if the supernatural and OBE stuff is all just self-delusion. On the other hand, I've grown very curious about where I go and what I do during NREM. It feels like there are questions there that are hard-wired in, NOT to be asked... if that makes any sense.

I think the area I most need to work on is how to naturally recognise when I'm in a dream. After the fact, it seems so dumb that I didn't catch on sooner. Me thinks that Sageous's "reverse reality check" idea is the key to getting better at that.

N.

Naja - I´d really love to learn WILD, because of it´s controllability - but I guess, every lucid experience adds up to more general understanding and also a feel for aspects, which might later come in handy for WILD.
And this re-entry into the second lucid episode was really a DEILD, I think - the only thing between was waking up shortly and immediately falling asleep into the LD again.
Not WILD, because there was a short loss of consciousness while the transition - but in hindsight - this was something new and cool.
In a way, I had held onto that LD through awaking and falling back asleep.
If that could work for the next time, I snap out - would be great.

Interesting stuff -- especially Justin Bieber as dream guide!

Originally Posted by Nailler

It seems like during REM there's this big pile of bits and pieces of the last day's memories, and also old scraps of memory that were stirred up by the events of the day. As our attention goes into the pile, we use our mind to form them into plots and patterns... because that's one of the things that the mind does naturally... tries to make everything make sense, even when it doesn't make sense. When lucid, we do that more knowingly, of course. At least it seems that's how LDs work to me.

Seeing more and more of how the LD thing works and the major part expectations play in it all makes me wonder if the supernatural and OBE stuff is all just self-delusion. On the other hand, I've grown very curious about where I go and what I do during NREM. It feels like there are questions there that are hard-wired in, NOT to be asked... if that makes any sense.

With those thoughts in mind, one thing you might consider working on is memory, so that you have a tool with which you can wade through all that flotsam and jetsam of day residue during the dream and get to a point where you can lucidly explore the undercurrents over which all that stuff is drifting. For instance, next time a Justin Bieber-type DC appears in your dream, try to remember why he might be there. If you can remember that he is just a bit of day residue, then you might just set him aside, and push on to new depths. In a sense, by being able to remember the residual base for certain images in dreams, you can avoid elevating their importance during the the dream and sending you to places like 7th floor paradises (though that is an excellent image!)... and then move on toward what you might deem important.

I think the area I most need to work on is how to naturally recognize when I'm in a dream. After the fact, it seems so dumb that I didn't catch on sooner. Me thinks that Sageous's "reverse reality check" idea is the key to getting better at that.

Always good to work on that, too, and yes, I think those RRC's might help (as they would with the memory bit, too).

Thanks for sharing, Nailler!

Originally Posted by Sageous

With those thoughts in mind, one thing you might consider working on is memory,

Thanks, Sageous. I think I'm just beginning to appreciate the importance of memory in LDing. Sometimes I wake up experiencing emotions that I know are residual from a dream, but other than a vague idea have no idea what the dream was about.

N.

^^ Working on recall is important, but that's not the memory I'm talking about.

Far more important for LD'ing is remembering during the dream. If you can remember, say, that your true body is right where you left it, asleep in bed, your self awareness will be stronger, and, of course, lucidity will be that much easier. And of course if you can remember your dream goals during the dream, all the better.

Memory, especially short-term but much of long-term as well, is unavailable during a dream, which is a major reason it is so easy to think pretty much anything you are doing in your dream is real (after all, it is being presented to you as real by your dreaming mind, and, since you have no memories to assure you that, say, you cannot have lunch on the moon, you assume that that is perfectly normal). If you were able to make your memory available during a dream, essentially switching it back on, you would go a long way toward both recognizing that you are in a dream and fueling your self-awareness to sustain lucidity.

Tl;dr dream recall is important, but being able to tap memory during the dream is a fundamental to lucidity... and the RRC is indeed an exercise for helping that happen.

Good on the clarification, Sageous.

Most of what I "remember" in dream state, like dream goals, is a product of auto-suggestion... but is that really remembering? I do tend to abandon dream goals because I get curious where the dream is going on its own.

Is it really possible to fully turn on memory of waking life in a dream? What would be the approach, or first step to becoming able to do that?

Remembering my real body is asleep in bed seems counter-intuitive as when I put any attention in that direction I tend to wake up. Or is there a distinction between remembering my real body is asleep in bed and putting actual attention on it?

By the way, for anybody interested... what I've found works really well for auto suggestion is combining a mantra with a really thorough visualization. For example, for DEILD, once I'm relaxed and ready to fall asleep, I combine the mantra "I'll awaken mid-a-dream and remember to remain perfectly still" with simultaneously picturing that happening, how it feels, the recognition of it happening, the fact of remaining still, etc. I can pretty consistently use that approach to induce an LD, but quality of the dream varies greatly. If I choose, I can even wake up at an exact time to the minute using that technique.

Next I'm going to try waking up during "peak REM" for DEILD via auto-suggestion. No idea if that will work, but will be fun to try. I've come to the conclusion that in attempting to induce an LD, where we are relative to peak REM is a key factor. For me, it's like at low REM I have only a light yellow crayon to draw dreams with and at high rem I have all the colors in the rainbow, plus shades of grey.

One more question... To what degree do you think the clarity at which memory fragments are recorded determines how clearly they come together in dream state. In other words, is there a consistent relationship between level of day-to-day awareness and dream clarity? Or to put it yet another way, can a person living a 360p life have 1080p dreams?

N.

Originally Posted by Nailler

Is it really possible to fully turn on memory of waking life in a dream? What would be the approach, or first step to becoming able to do that?

Yes, it's really possible. I say that with anecdotal surety, and with a niggling memory that accessing memory was proven possible (or as proven as can be proven) by folks in LaBerge's camp.

The first approach, sadly (more in a sec), is to remember your sleeping body during the dream. I'm not sure why this works, but it does (I tried a search on LaBerge's site for backup, but searches just don't work for me there). Another good step is to set an intention before sleep to do a simple exercise when lucid that requires memory, like a math problem, or perhaps name some childhood friends. And, in your case especially, if you're good at auto-suggestion, reminding yourself to remember is a good idea as well.

And, of course, there's the other fundamental: master your self-awareness, know who you are in the dream, and remembering becomes much, much easier.

Remembering my real body is asleep in bed seems counter-intuitive as when I put any attention in that direction I tend to wake up. Or is there a distinction between remembering my real body is asleep in bed and putting actual attention on it?

There is definitely a distinction, I think. When you are remembering your sleeping body, you are doing so in the context of the dream and not in a physical manner. In other words, you intellectually remember that this body you are in right now isn't your physical body, and that you are asleep somewhere. The last thing you want to do is reach out with your senses looking for your physical body, as this could end the dream very quickly (especially if you do your LD'ing very late in the sleep cycle).

Next I'm going to try waking up during "peak REM" for DEILD via auto-suggestion. No idea if that will work, but will be fun to try. I've come to the conclusion that in attempting to induce an LD, where we are relative to peak REM is a key factor. For me, it's like at low REM I have only a light yellow crayon to draw dreams with and at high rem I have all the colors in the rainbow, plus shades of grey.

That sounds like a good thing to try, but I'm not sure your dreaming mind "knows" when peak REM occurs. Also, I think that, once lucid, you have a capacity to create your own peaks:

One more question... To what degree do you think the clarity at which memory fragments are recorded determines how clearly they come together in dream state. In other words, is there a consistent relationship between level of day-to-day awareness and dream clarity? Or to put it yet another way, can a person living a 360p life have 1080p dreams?

Sadly, in normal dreams (NLD's), I'm pretty sure those fragments will appear in the dream as they did in waking-life, if not even less clear...sucks, but likely true. However, that's just the snippets of day residue themselves.

Your dreaming mind is fully capable of creating anything you imagine, including 1080p clarity. If you can build clarity into your intentions or auto-suggestions, or when lucid pause for a moment and gather a strong feeling or desire for clarity (please don't shout "Clarity Now!" or some such, as this just makes your dreaming mind snigger at you), you might see some brighter detail in your dreams. Remember also that people tend to remember -- or rather recall from long-term memory -- events in much more detail than actually happened; especially the important or exciting stuff, so your mind might already be primed to add a little something to your dream images.

Originally Posted by Sageous

That sounds like a good thing to try, but I'm not sure your dreaming mind "knows" when peak REM occurs.

I tried this and became lucid in an incredibly clear and detailed dream environment. The problem was that it was just before I would normally awaken. No time for anything.

N.

Just a short update - last two nights I had a short and low-lucidity DILD each - without WILD-try incubation.

This I find great - them coming on their own finally - buut:
The contrast is immense!

With the WILD-associated ones - I had almost complete daytime memory access - like last month the tasks, and also why I wanted to do them and actually all and everything, I remembered actively + spontaneous stuff also, but less.
Not the same as the background constant context matching and full spontaneous access like in real waking life, though.
Also - control was better by miles - and length.

So - planned are one tonight and one the night after that again - see how far I get with that..

Sageous,

Hadn't had much luck with WILDS in the past, but decided to try again last night and it went very well. I think it was easier because of how much I've learned with the DEILDs of late. For example, I learned how to let go and fall into a dream rather than trying to force one.

One question:
Most of the DEILDs I've experienced have been fairly vivid, but last night's WILD was more "real." Is that typical, or just the way it worked out? Having almost no experience with WILDs I have no basis for comparison.

Thanks,
N.

^^ In my opnion, that's just the way it worked out. Lucidity -- however you get there -- does not equal vividness. Once lucid, you can certainly use your awareness to help vividness (or, rather, use your awareness to pay more attention to details and thus make them appear more vivid -- not that there is much difference, perception-wise). But your waking-life self-awareness is already present in the dream once you can do these things, and how you got there is firmly in your past. Once you're lucid, in my opinion, it no longer matters how you got there. Dream quality is a here & now event, sourced on the level of participation of your unconscious, your self-awareness, maybe your sleeping body's physical state, and not much else.

I seem to be in an extreme minority with this opinion, BTW, as more and more people are coming to believe that lucidity equals vividness. Often I wish that they had called it "waking dreaming," or some such, instead of lucid dreaming.

That rant aside, keep in mind that a DEILD is a WILD, so your state of awareness should be about the same in either, which also makes the WILD's extra realness not a product of how you got there...in my opinion

What you write re: "lucid" versus "vivid" makes sense, Sageous.

I had overlooked that DEILD is a form of WILD.

I think I'll work on controlling dream vividness.

N.

I just read the SSILD thread. Have you read it, Sageous?

To me it looks more like an exercise for setting up a WILD or DILD than a new technique.

Your thoughts on it

.

^^ Yes, I've read its OP, and a few of the posts... I can't remember if I commented on it there. But I do agree with your observation: SSILD does seem to be a good technique when performing a WILD (or DILD too, I suppose).

A small aside that I may have mentioned before: A lot of confusion, or perhaps a commonly held misunderstanding at this point, has arisen over the years about WILD and DILD. They actually are not techniques, but descriptions of how one transitions into lucidity, or, rather, WILD and DILD could be seen as states of mind. The only tradtional "ILD" that is actually a technique is MILD. SSILD, like MILD, is a specific technique meant to induce WILD's.

I think I got really close to doing a successful WILD last night.

After about 5 hours of sleep, I woke up and tried it. I got past the hearing the sounds part, and I started to feel my body vibrating like it does sometimes when I meditate for a long time. I've never experienced that before when doing my usual method of WILD, so I thought it was pretty cool. I saw random shapes and let my mind turn them into dream-movies. The movies slowly became more vivid the longer I watched them. I would gradually meld with them until, before I realized it, I was in them. But then I would always realize that I was in the dream, get excited, and wake up. It feels like my earliest lucid dream experiences all over again

I think I repeated this process about 4 times before I decided I would just become lucid the old-fashioned DILD way. I love this method and I look forward to trying it again tonight!

Just a couple quick questions - Is it absolutely necessary that I get up for around 30 minutes with the WBTB WILD? and if so, what does staying up for that long do exactly to make the WILD have a higher chance of success?

^^ Sounds like a nice try, Anotherdreamer! Replace that excitement with patient calm next time, and you might find yourself staying in the dream...

Originally Posted by anotherdreamer

Just a couple quick questions - Is it absolutely necessary that I get up for around 30 minutes with the WBTB WILD? and if so, what does staying up for that long do exactly to make the WILD have a higher chance of success?

Nothing is ever absolutely necessary in WILD. Indeed, if you do DEILD's, you can avoid WBTB's completely while having a WILD. However, if you are not doing a DEILD, a WBTB of less than 90 minutes but more than 10 minutes is very helpful in getting your mind in the right place for your WILD attempt.

What does WBTB do? Well, first, the process insures that you actually wake up. Since WILD's are best attempted after several hours of sleep, you need to physically wake up, gather yourself, and then attempt your WILD. Staying in bed after waking from, say, five hours of sleep makes physically staying awake long enough to attempt a WILD problematic: your body is more interested in just going back to sleep than it is in allowing you to hold still and maintain waking-life self-awareness for a while.

Also, when you wake (the first "W" of WBTB), you likely have just left a REM cycle, and the next cycle might be a few minutes or more away. So even if you manage to stay in bed and stay awake long enough to do a WILD, you might be doing one between REM periods, making it all the more difficult to hold onto your self-awareness while the next REM period cycles in... the action of getting up for a little while might get you closer to that next REM period.

And, WBTB allows you time to gather your thoughts coherently, to prepare for the WILD in terms of reviewing goals, setting intentions, building expectations, preparing a mantra, and basically getting your mind in just the right place for the upcoming WILD.

Finally, this isn't very technical, but I've found that doing a WBTB makes the WILD you're about to do a little more important; in a sense, by waking up and sitting around for an hour thinking about nothing but your upcoming WILD, you are elevating the WILD above the horizon of the rest of the stuff your brain might be doing at the time.

So there are a few decent reasons to include WBTB in your WILD attempt, I think; it is a sound and proven technique, and you ought to consider including it in your WILD attempts. If you choose not to do so, then DEILD may be the thing for you. However, if you do DEILDs, you miss all the bells and whistles you were enjoying, along with that "pretty cool" sensation of turning shapes into "dream movies," and dream movies into the dream (which to me is just fine, because as exciting as this stuff is, it can also be just so much distracting noise, pulling you further from the dream). But you get to do a WILD without the rigor-moral of WBTB. For what it's worth, DEILD is my usual choice for WILD as well, mostly for that reason (though I'm also a fan of chaining dreams, for which DEILD is an excellent tool).

So the WBTB part is almost like a ceremony where you strengthen your belief and your intention in what is about to happen. That's awesome, I like that a lot. I'll definitely try this WBTB ceremony tonight.

Thank you for the very thorough answers