Thread: What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

About the swallowing thing. When you need to swallow, just do it. Thinking about it only distracts you. Just swallow, and with time you'll get used to swallowing during a WILD dive without even noticing you are, which is a good thing.

And also, about the position thing. You can WILD on your side. I'm a belly sleeper and I get WILDs sleeping on my belly. In fact, if I sleep on my back, I wouldn't be even able to fall asleep, let alone WILDing. Generally it is kinda better to wild on your back bcz I think you'd have less anoyments, but that's for back sleepers. We side and belly sleepers shouldn't usually do that.
The point is to be comfortable.

And about your plans, I can't but notice you're missing the hugest factor even; skills.
WILDing isn't about a recipe for success. Well o/c you need to know your sleep cycles and also know how to perform a wild (we all wild pretty much the same way. We just add a bit of variations individually to suit our sleep and dive, but we all follow the same path; wbtb after a certain hours of sleep you find convenient for you (you only know through experimenting), then staying up a certain while (again, experimentation to figure how much suits you or when you generally feel you're ready to start the WILD), then lay comfortably (everyone varies in how they like to lay down), then start focusing on staying aware and self aware while activating some senses to help push the dream to form (like the best way for me is visualizing the dream and walking in it while trying to pretend moving my legs and walking and sensing it (it's a FILD but with feet+visualization) and with slight mantra using (to keep self aware I mainly use prospective memory cuz it really works well for me. It almost always succeeds in giving me back my self awareness after I have lost it during the transition to the dream. (just to clarify something; you always have to sacrifice some self awareness while going under(aka transitioning into the dream). It's difficult not to bcz that's how the dive is. You gotta not fight it or you won't fall asleep, so you need to lose some awareness. But don't over think this. Just try to be comfortable and focusing on your goal while allowing yourself to drift to sleep). This is why prospective memory works wonders for me; it allows me to allow myself to not cling to too much awareness and just focusing on getting as far as I can, then when I transition, I don't worry if I lost too much awareness, my intention to notice when the dream has formed kicks in, making me lucid. It's easy for me too bcz I am mainly a MILDer, and have trained my prospective memory for more than a year now. Almost 2 years now.)

Now, some people like to count instead of visualizing.
"One, I'm dreaming. Two, I'm dreaming,..."
Some ppl like just visualizing.
Some like sense of touch only (like doing FILD exclusively)

You test to see what works well with you, and keep experimenting, but basically it's still all of us doing the same things; trying to fall asleep while maintaining some self awareness.

I should get back to the main point. Skills:

WILDing is the attempt to sneak in some self awareness while falling asleep instead of allowing none to come with you like we do when we sleep regularly.
It's a weird thing you've never tried before. O/c wanting good conditions during the WILD attempt is a must, and I think you got your conditions figured out (but still you can't tell whether they are the best. Keep experimenting even if you think you know what's your good conditions. Like, what if it's better if you do a long wbtb, like an hour wbtb? You never know unless you experiment. And by experimenting I mean trying and recording the outcomes multiple times. I kinda see that you rely on only a few tries to figure out a condition that suits you. That's bad science.

Anyways, having good conditions is important, but you should be focusing mostly on practicing wild to gain skill. Perfect conditions don't equal success. They only help by letting your skills do their magic properly. They are the paper but not the writing. You need paper to write, but the way to write a book is by writing. Having paper alone doesn't do jack. They only able you to write. In wilding also, the right conditions only help you to be able to dive, but the real magic is you being able to dive.

How to gain skills? Easy, just practice. It is a mental game (did I use the word right? Lol)
Just lay down comfortably, and do the technique you prefer, which is basically a method of falling asleep while maintaining some self awareness.
It's really a no brainer. Seriously, don't over think it. I know you do over think. I do too, but if there is something I know about LDing, whether DILD or WILD, is that you just need to know the basics, then just practice. There is no use in over thinking it. Just experiment to find good conditions for you ( you know, like how long you should wbtb, after how many hours. What RCs work well in your dreams, bla bla bla), then just practice. Don't over think.

Like, I am a mainly a MILDer, and I used to practice WILD like once a week bcz why not? It's fun and neat. I mainly relied on MILD, and look at me now, my perfect technique emerged when I gained enough skill in WILDing and MILDing that it naturally morphed them together to form a way of gaining lucidity which is sustaining enough self awareness through a wild dive, then when the dream forms, if I haven't succeeded in maintaining my self awareness, no problem! My prospective memory remembers my intention, sees the dream has formed, and gives me self awareness. 2 different skills combining. Very neat. I didn't even think much about wild when I did it. I was like "let's visualize!" And so I did. And by just wilding, you gain the skills, don't worry.
And about how I figured out that touch+visualization is a good combo for me? Easy! I just noticed that visualizing my goals and reminding myself slightly every now and then that I'm diving helps maintain my self awareness, and also noticing that my touch sense comes quickly and strongly (it was pretty obvious since when I am visualizing, let's say, kissing, I would start feeling the lips pretty well before auditory or strong sight kicked in.), I started focusing on touch too as well as visualizing, which helps form the dream quicker.

Oh and check out Sageous's class on schemas. It's like a bonus for me, helps me get the touch sense rolling faster when I get a schema opportunity.

Anyways, here my wild/mild morph from last night (I get to wild only on weekends due to school and now I'm very disconnected this past month from LDing due to my finals , but only 3 more weeks to go until I finish my finals! Fight!):

So I did a wbtb after like 5 hours of sleep(I usually go for a 5.5 hour wbtb then early morning wbtb if I still can). I stayed up an hour listening to loud music as usual (lol), then started wilding.
I started visualizing my goal.
I can't remember the environment really bcz I mainly focused on the anime girl I wanted to be with.
So I visualized an anime girl. I 'flipped' through a few different designs until I stopped at a one I like (like what you do while daydreaming).
The visualizations wheren't so strong at first, as usual. And as usual, I emersed myself into this daydream. My PM kept reminding my every now and then about acknowledging I'm wilding, as usual (pm isn't just for the end. It always assists).
So I started kissing her, and after a while I started feeling her lips more and more vividly. The sight started becoming stronger too.
But then I got too excited I kinda woke up a bit.
Then I attempted again but lost my self awareness. But as usual, when the dream formed, my pm noticed and reminded me about my intention to notice when the dream has formed (yeah I forgot to mention, I set that intention before and while I dive. I don't do it like every second while I dive though. Maybe once or twice. Half of the times only right before I start the dive).
But, and sadly as usual, I woke up after a few seconds
I'm working on this problem though.

And also this time I didn't get DEILDs.
Meh.....meeeeeeeehhhh....meeeeeeeeehhhhhhhh
This "waking up after a few seconds" thing is frustrating. I know if I don't worry about it, it would go away. I'm working on that.

Oh and TDHXIII, I know you must be worried about induction. Everyone does at first. At first I was like "oh plz just 1 LD a month would be heaven! C'mon!". Took me 2.5 months to get my first LD, and trust me, I was working HARD to get it.
But now, I get LDs most of the times I try (if I do my long wbtb which I can only do on weekends sob). It's funny bcz I don't feel I did much. What I mean is that I still feel like I'm that newbie from 1.5 years ago, but bcz I practiced, I got good at induction. Really practicing is the main key. This is not math, this is, uhm, playing the piano? Whatever. You improve even if you don't feel you do.
I need to do more MILDs though in the weekdays when I can't do a long wbtb. MILD+20 min wbtb works well, not as much as a long wbtb, but still better than no wbtb.

Oh it's impossible for me to get a LD without wbtb. Lol I'm not that good yet.

WOOOOOW long post! Hope I'm helping though ^_^

^^ Excellent post/synopsis of this whole business, Louai, and well said! I just want to comment on one small but significant point:

Originally Posted by LouaiB

just to clarify something; you always have to sacrifice some self awareness while going under(aka transitioning into the dream)

No, you don't.

It is more than possible to maintain your "full" self-awareness straight through the WILD transition... in fact, I believe that you must maintain it fully, because self-awareness is an all-or-nothing state*[/I]. Assuming it's okay to let your self-awareness lapse a little to facilitate sleep is to me an invitation for it to lapse entirely*-- and, unless you have strong MILD skills in place, there is no guarantee that self-awareness will return after you fall asleep.

I think the better way to approach the WILD process is to do your best to maintain 100% self-awareness throughout the dive. If you lose it and "wake up" in the dream later, that's just fine; indeed, this resultant DILD was likely caused by effort to maintain self-awareness throughout the dive, sort of like a fuel powering expectation/intention and prospective memory (because you are focused on maintaining your waking-life self-awareness). But if you expect to lose your self-awareness (even just some of it, and even if that expectation is an unconscious one) then you likely will, and your reduced effort to maintain self-awareness might not have provided enough of that fuel to bring you to lucidity during the dream... and yes, practicing MILD can refuel your self-awareness during the dream and trigger lucidity, but that is a patch and, honestly, if your MILD work is that successful, why go to the trouble of attempting a WILD at all?

Other than that, Louai, your advice is spot on (especially about body position and developing skills), thank you!

So I suggest, TDHXIII, that you carefully consider everything else Louai had to say but that your best to maintain self-awareness throughout your WILD dive,


*[/I] There really aren't levels of self-awareness, though I notice that the things I say seem to imply there are. Either you are self-aware or not... sort of like pregnancy. Yes, you can have a complete or strong sort of self-awareness that includes full memory access and a rolling understanding of your surroundings and your place in them (9 months pregnant) but that completion is complementary: the self-awareness that enjoys those additions is the same self-awareness that is present without those things (you are just as pregnant in the first month as you are in the last, even though it "shows" much more in the ninth month). So, if you lose some self-awareness during your WILD dive, you may actually be losing all of it...and if you find yourself waking up in the dream later, you definitely lost all of it and did not complete your WILD (though, again, DILD is just fine too, as long as you are lucid somehow!).

Originally Posted by LouaiB

About the swallowing thing. When you need to swallow, just do it. Thinking about it only distracts you. Just swallow, and with time you'll get used to swallowing during a WILD dive without even noticing you are, which is a good thing.

And about your plans, I can't but notice you're missing the hugest factor even; skills.

WILDing is the attempt to sneak in some self awareness while falling asleep instead of allowing none to come with you like we do when we sleep regularly.
It's a weird thing you've never tried before. O/c wanting good conditions during the WILD attempt is a must, and I think you got your conditions figured out (but still you can't tell whether they are the best. Keep experimenting even if you think you know what's your good conditions. Like, what if it's better if you do a long wbtb, like an hour wbtb? You never know unless you experiment. And by experimenting I mean trying and recording the outcomes multiple times. I kinda see that you rely on only a few tries to figure out a condition that suits you. That's bad science.

Anyways, having good conditions is important, but you should be focusing mostly on practicing wild to gain skill. Perfect conditions don't equal success. They only help by letting your skills do their magic properly. They are the paper but not the writing. You need paper to write, but the way to write a book is by writing. Having paper alone doesn't do jack. They only able you to write. In wilding also, the right conditions only help you to be able to dive, but the real magic is you being able to dive.

How to gain skills? Easy, just practice. It is a mental game (did I use the word right? Lol)
Just lay down comfortably, and do the technique you prefer, which is basically a method of falling asleep while maintaining some self awareness.
It's really a no brainer. Seriously, don't over think it. I know you do over think. I do too, but if there is something I know about LDing, whether DILD or WILD, is that you just need to know the basics, then just practice. There is no use in over thinking it. Just experiment to find good conditions for you ( you know, like how long you should wbtb, after how many hours. What RCs work well in your dreams, bla bla bla), then just practice. Don't over think.

Like, I am a mainly a MILDer, and I used to practice WILD like once a week bcz why not? It's fun and neat. I mainly relied on MILD, and look at me now, my perfect technique emerged when I gained enough skill in WILDing and MILDing that it naturally morphed them together to form a way of gaining lucidity which is sustaining enough self awareness through a wild dive, then when the dream forms, if I haven't succeeded in maintaining my self awareness, no problem! My prospective memory remembers my intention, sees the dream has formed, and gives me self awareness. 2 different skills combining. Very neat. I didn't even think much about wild when I did it. I was like "let's visualize!" And so I did. And by just wilding, you gain the skills, don't worry.
And about how I figured out that touch+visualization is a good combo for me? Easy! I just noticed that visualizing my goals and reminding myself slightly every now and then that I'm diving helps maintain my self awareness, and also noticing that my touch sense comes quickly and strongly (it was pretty obvious since when I am visualizing, let's say, kissing, I would start feeling the lips pretty well before auditory or strong sight kicked in.), I started focusing on touch too as well as visualizing, which helps form the dream quicker.

Oh and check out Sageous's class on schemas. It's like a bonus for me, helps me get the touch sense rolling faster when I get a schema opportunity.

Anyways, here my wild/mild morph from last night (I get to wild only on weekends due to school and now I'm very disconnected this past month from LDing due to my finals , but only 3 more weeks to go until I finish my finals! Fight!):

Oh and TDHXIII, I know you must be worried about induction. Everyone does at first. At first I was like "oh plz just 1 LD a month would be heaven! C'mon!". Took me 2.5 months to get my first LD, and trust me, I was working HARD to get it.
But now, I get LDs most of the times I try (if I do my long wbtb which I can only do on weekends sob). It's funny bcz I don't feel I did much. What I mean is that I still feel like I'm that newbie from 1.5 years ago, but bcz I practiced, I got good at induction. Really practicing is the main key. This is not math, this is, uhm, playing the piano? Whatever. You improve even if you don't feel you do.
I need to do more MILDs though in the weekdays when I can't do a long wbtb. MILD+20 min wbtb works well, not as much as a long wbtb, but still better than no wbtb.

Oh it's impossible for me to get a LD without wbtb. Lol I'm not that good yet.

WOOOOOW long post! Hope I'm helping though ^_^

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Excellent post/synopsis of this whole business, Louai, and well said! I just want to comment on one small but significant point:

It is more than possible to maintain your "full" self-awareness straight through the WILD transition... in fact, I believe that you must maintain it fully, because self-awareness is an all-or-nothing state*[/I]. Assuming it's okay to let your self-awareness lapse a little to facilitate sleep is to me an invitation for it to lapse entirely*-- and, unless you have strong MILD skills in place, there is no guarantee that self-awareness will return after you fall asleep.

I think the better way to approach the WILD process is to do your best to maintain 100% self-awareness throughout the dive. If you lose it and "wake up" in the dream later, that's just fine; indeed, this resultant DILD was likely caused by effort to maintain self-awareness throughout the dive, sort of like a fuel powering expectation/intention and prospective memory (because you are focused on maintaining your waking-life self-awareness). But if you expect to lose your self-awareness (even just some of it, and even if that expectation is an unconscious one) then you likely will, and your reduced effort to maintain self-awareness might not have provided enough of that fuel to bring you to lucidity during the dream... and yes, practicing MILD can refuel your self-awareness during the dream and trigger lucidity, but that is a patch and, honestly, if your MILD work is that successful, why go to the trouble of attempting a WILD at all?

Other than that, Louai, your advice is spot on (especially about body position and developing skills), thank you!

So I suggest, TDHXIII, that you carefully consider everything else Louai had to say but that your best to maintain self-awareness throughout your WILD dive,


*[/I] There really aren't levels of self-awareness, though I notice that the things I say seem to imply there are. Either you are self-aware or not... sort of like pregnancy. Yes, you can have a complete or strong sort of self-awareness that includes full memory access and a rolling understanding of your surroundings and your place in them (9 months pregnant) but that completion is complementary: the self-awareness that enjoys those additions is the same self-awareness that is present without those things (you are just as pregnant in the first month as you are in the last, even though it "shows" much more in the ninth month). So, if you lose some self-awareness during your WILD dive, you may actually be losing all of it...and if you find yourself waking up in the dream later, you definitely lost all of it and did not complete your WILD (though, again, DILD is just fine too, as long as you are lucid somehow!).

Swallowing is okay? i seem to be focused a lot on staying still, and that's why i asked. that is probably a mistake though so i'll scrap it and just aim for the normal way i position my body when sleeping, that is on my right.

On conditions, i honestly am still not rock-solid on those. I can't experiment so greatly right now because i'm in the middle of exams week. i'm pretty sure after those finals i'm going to get miles better because when in the holiday i'll be able to choose my sleep pattern according to the technique. and to go through each step and see what works best for that particular task (for example: Wbtb timing and length)

What you said about me not focusing on skill is true indeed. Actually you might have nailed it right there.
The only times i tried the anchoring tech is when i tried doing WILDs. That is a mistake in itself, and i did think about practicing, but it only came to me briefly then i forgot about it. So the conclusion is to just forget about doing WILDs for the moment, and just practice falling asleep normally with the anchor. But the difference inbetween using the anchor on normal sleep and WILD is that for WILD i will slightly modify it to boost my awareness.

The method in question that seems comfortable to me:
Counting from 1 to 5, however i only count for about every 5 seconds (approximately) And right after saying a number, i try to fall asleep with no grip to consciousness. This for me means that i get a reminder every few seconds while still focusing on falling asleep at the same time. Those two mixed in could actually work. This is my first mantra style that i came up with by myself, suiting to my ways of falling asleep. But again, experimentation.

Standard Anchor (for practicing at normal sleep times) : Counting every 10 seconds
Modified Anchor (for the actual WILD) : Counting every 6 seconds

That is an example, and i don't think 5-10 seconds are my sweet-spot for this mantra choice. I'll practice this one in particular and change the numbers and see what comes up when i do.

Now this isn't the only thing worth practicing, but to me the mantra/anchor part seems like the most part that i have absolutely no skill in. It will be worth practicing this to clear it out of the way of my WILD obstacle course.

On self-awareness. I won't give too much worry on it at the moment. If i can get to fall asleep while doing my mantra in the first place then i'll consider it as the next step on experiment, i guess they both serve the same purpose in practical situations though.

I'm not keen on visualizing techs. Mainly because i never saw success while doing them. But on my road of clearing obstacles i surely will stumble accross it and try it out.

I bet there is still more i'm missing out, but i'll take things one-by-one. For now, i need to practice the technique itself to see how to dive properly. I'll go on after the exams to inspect the conditions, because i clearly had the wrong priority when i focused only on the conditions.

And thanks, this is really helping even though the road is all bumpy towards success.

Well, this was fun! I'm not sure what it was. I'm tempted to call it a WILD, but whatever it was I used WILD-like thinking to enter the dream.

I'm doing relaxing breathing, and I get a flash of a scene by water, I try to keep thinking of that to enter a dream there. Then I get an impression that I'm running towards my childhood home's neighbor's garage and I think that I must enter the darkness inside there to enter the dream [I may be dreaming at this point?] I end up "taking off" and "flying" down their back steps in darkness, the sensation of flying continues and I stick with it because this has worked before to get me through void-like situations back into visual dreams. I try to stay relaxed with a calm mind and just to let the dream happen. I feel some sort of sensation throughout my body that I interpret as a very fast transition into full-dream. I then sense the sound of wind and feel it a bit [from the fan in my room?] and then decide I will enter the dream lying in the sand on a windy beach. I get visuals of me lying on the ground but I'm unable to move, I ask passing DCs to "help me up" I ask a few times, they come and help me up and I put both hands on one and am a bit surprised that I don't feel touching them with my hands. We walk a bit forwards to a crowd of people and I start getting touch sensation and I go on with the dream for a minute or so longer (lucid until the end).

Behold my awkward success!!

Take this with a grain of salt, as my memory is quite fuzzy about this. The things i can remember will be written below:

So with my previous post, i stated that i will experiment my anchor method "counting and sleeping"
I went to bed after studying. I was fairly tired but not extreme. So i layed down and started counting. The process was like "Clear your mind.. 1 *after 30~40 seconds* 2..."
So this was the loop i started up with my anchor. I was able to clear my mind a few minutes after starting it and after a while my mind started drifting away and forgetting to count. This was the case until i suddenly rolled to my back for some reason. Right after laying back i had those "i can feel SP very close" moments. Unexpecting THAT, i turned to my right again.
I layed back on my right for a while then i started drifting and imagining things out of the blue, it's like sitting there counting and such then suddenly finding out that i stopped counting and was in some sort of imagination scene. When i snapped back consciousness i continued the usual process.

Here my memory gets fuzzy as i'm not sure what actually happened:

I seem to have entered SP, based on the loud buzz and the slight noises here and there. I, for some reason decided to roll over with my "dream body" i moved, but i don't remember what happens here.

The juicy parts

I remember suddenly being in a dream floating around near the stairs of my house, i immediately thought if it was a dream and reality checked and it sure was. So my vision was like tunnel vision and very blurry, i shouted "Clarify" a couple of times and it did work for the first 2~3 times then it stopped. I had less tunnel vision after shouting but it was still there.

After that. I remember being in another place in my house, my room to be exact. With full vision but still not clear. i opened the door into the hallway and saw my brother smoking while laying in bed with the lights off (lol). Here i thought of some control techniques but i said leave it for later since my dream was still blurry, and considering this was right when i went to sleep no WBTB involved. It was expected to happen.

The dreams lasted for a minute at most, maybe less. But that's why Sageous keeps saying not to do WILDs right when going to bed.
For this, i'm positive that i intended it to happen. But because my memory is all over the place i don't know what really happened. Either DILD or WILD, not that it matters. So it worked, and my thought process/mindset were like this:

Going to bed, going to sleep. Let's give this anchor a try. I don't care if my body moves, but i'll minimize movements..

I initially used my anchor with 10 second between each number but i found out it wasnt enough to drift away. 30~40 seconds did the magic for me.

The anchor is used like this, as far as i intended to use it like:
Counting from 1 to 10. Between each number i wait until i feel that 40 seconds passed.
In those moments of waiting, i switch all my willpower to sleep normally, no tricks involved.

So in a nutshell it's me cycling between awareness and sleepiness. This worked wonders though, for me at least!
In the end it worked by just doing the anchor and nothing else fancy like spending minutes to relax. I might have overcomplicated things with my past attempts.

I write first intentional success! And i finally get the feeling that it's going to work out easy like this.

.... THAT WAS WILD!

Looks like i have to modify the mantra more. I'll need to experiment on 40, 50 and 60 second wait times. With the phrase "Focus" instead of counting.
Gotta see and check here and there. Ultimately leading to my perfect anchor.

tried the 20 sec between each counting, it's like forever to me, I lost my mind after 3.
I can't imagine myself trying 60 sec, it's like ten times enough for me to loose myself.
In the past I tried this stuff that I invented:

I will use the numbers, but you have to imagine yourself saying the number in you head.
this is an example for a "5" set
use the mantra you like.

1
mantra
1
1,2
1
mantra
1
1,2
1,2,3
1,2
1
mantra
1
1,2
1,2,3
1,2,3,4
1,2,3
1,2
1
mantra
1
1,2
1,2,3
1,2,3,4
1,2,3,4,5
1,2,3,4
1,2,3
1,2
1
mantra
1
1,2
1,2,3
1,2,3,4
1,2,3
1,2
1
mantra
1
1,2
1,2,3
1,2
1
mantra
1
1,2
1
mantra
1
mantra



this is a "5" set.
it means that the max wave amplitude is set to 5

I usually use a "9" set

So it is like counting waves of numbers with increasing amplitudes, from "1" to "9" and then with decreasing amplitudes from "8" to "1"
It takes some time, and forces you to stay focused enough for a certain amount of time while you cross the sleep stages.
it is not as repetitive and monotone as just counting, and it uses your prospective memory cause you have to remember the amplitude of the "wave" your are counting.
for example if you have just finished the wave 4 for the first time, you know that you'll have to count the wave "5" and then the "6" and while you are counting the "6", you have to remember that you'll have to count the "7" wave after you finish the "6". and so on.
if you have reached the maximum wave you wanted to attain, you'll have to count the waves with decreasing amplitudes, wave after wave, until you reach the final "1".
here again you have to remember where exactly you are in the process

the wave "8" takes more time than the wave "3" so:
The mantra you say after each wave comes with a decreasing frequency until you reach the biggest wave and then the frequency increases when you come back to smaller waves.

so you just have to choose the good length of the whole process, and try to reach you goal.
this will keep your attention away from the body and HI noises, and keep you motivated for your WILD process.

the thing is, like SSILD, you will notice that your mind may start to have some bugs, you will forget where you were in the process, or you will forget to do the technique for few seconds.
It means that your are starting to fall asleep.

When it happens, I don't know what is the best thing to do.
Sageous or anyone else have some idea of what is the right thing to do when the "mental bugs" are kicking in?

Originally Posted by Kaan

Sageous or anyone else have some idea of what is the right thing to do when the "mental bugs" are kicking in?

I have one idea, but you probably won't like it: Don't count; just use your mantra.

I'm not sure what the value to a successful WILD these complex counting patterns might present. In fact, it seems like you would spend so much effort maintaining a proper count and rhythm that you might forget about the LD you are working to achieve (I can see thoughts of the dream becoming one of those mental bugs). An anchor is a fine thing, but don't make it so heavy that it holds your mind too firmly in place.

With your focus that tight on the counting patterns, it's a wonder that you even fall asleep! I tried a much simpler counting method (suggested by LaBerge) where I simply started at 100 and counted down, picturing each number written in a beach's sand that would be washed away by gentle ocean waves to make room for the next. I made it to one and back up to 100 almost every time I did this exercise, and eventually realized it was keeping me awake and unfocused on the dream.

I would suggest that you simply repeat your mantra, and fill the time between (or mental space behind, perhaps) each repetition with thoughts of your upcoming dream or state of lucidity.

Also, you might look into your timing as well: I'm not sure what you meant by "...as you cross the sleep stages," especially because it seems that you are not asleep yet when counting, but if you do WILD at an optimum time (after a good WBTB), the only sleep stage you should encounter is a brief bit of NREM, and that can be handled with a mantra, perhaps some visualization/imagining of the upcoming dream, and a little patience. There is no need, and not much sense, to attempting a WILD at bedtime, especially when new to the process.

Hopefully someone else will chime in with the advice you're looking for, Kaan (and TDHXIII), but I really can't think of a good reason to do complex counting exercises during a WILD dive. In WILD, simpler is always better.

Well, thanx for your reply Sageous, indeed I was expecting this kind of "don't do such a complicated stuff" advice .
To make things more clear about what I am thinking about such complicated things:

First of all, it is obvious for me that I won't try any WILD technique at bed time.
Secondly, I am one of those guys that have more issues to stay conscious long enough while falling asleep than to fall asleep.
Maybe because I suffer from ADHD, simple counting anchor are too monotone for me, I loose my focus cause I fall in some kind of hypnotic trance very fast.
I have the same trouble with breathing meditation while falling asleep, or just repeating a mantra, except the mantra I have been talking about for few month :" to stay concentrated" that seams to keep me focused longer than any other anchor I have been using for a while.

So few years ago, I had this idea of more complicated counting process that keep my pre-frontal cortex active (and my attention) much more than with a repetitive anchor or a too simple counting process.

When louaiB said "just to clarify something; you always have to sacrifice some self awareness while going under(aka transitioning into the dream)"

you answered "No, you don't.

It is more than possible to maintain your "full" self-awareness straight through the WILD transition... in fact, I believe that you must maintain it fully, because self-awareness is an all-or-nothing state"

This upgraded counting process I imagined works pretty well for maintaining my full self-awareness longer than simpler anchors (except the "to stay concentrated" mantra, that's why I'm thinking about mixing it with the counting stuff").
It also helps me to remember that I am trying to WILD.
but the the closer I am to the cycles that contain much REM, the harder it becomes for me to keep my consciousness more than few seconds.
It's like if the N-REM barriers that are more likely to be followed by REM were also the harder ones: I can stay focused on the stage 1 and 2 during few minutes after a WBTB that occured after 4,5hs of sleep (and that last 30-60min), but when I try it after a later WBTB, it's like the stages 1 and 2 have become more able to dissolve my mind, and I can't stay focused more than few seconds. (and when this doesn't happen, the opposite thing happens: I can't fall back to sleep).
So, this special counting does allow me to stay focused more than few seconds, but the mental bug is likely to come.
As I am loosing my ability to stay focused and even conscious when it arrives, my question is more about "what to do when I am on this point?"
I guess that when it happens, it is time to switch to another kind of anchor, or something to help me to stay conscious until the REM is really kicking in.
The question is what?
If I do nothing, at this point, I just lost consciousness and my chance to WILD become close to zero.

^^ Understood, and well said. So, where were we?

Originally Posted by Kaan

As I am losing my ability to stay focused and even conscious when it arrives, my question is more about "what to do when I am on this point?"
I guess that when it happens, it is time to switch to another kind of anchor, or something to help me to stay conscious until the REM is really kicking in.
The question is what?
If I do nothing, at this point, I just lost consciousness and my chance to WILD become close to zero.

I'm not sure I have an answer or a particular technique to solve this, but I do have a couple of suggestions:

First, it might be a good idea to tell yourself that there are no "NREM barriers," because there aren't. There is just NREM, and its occurrence will be very brief if you do your WBTB after more than 5hrs sleep (generally). I don't remember right now where the term came from, but I think it was because a dreamer was having a hard time dealing with NREM and simply decided there must be barriers. Try to consider that these barriers are merely a bit of "down time" through which you must pass before your dream starts. If you have in your head that a barrier exists, it will exist, and NREM will become a real barrier to your lucidity when it did not need to be. (I'm not interested in arguing this here BTW; if you disagree and are sure these barriers exist, that's fine; just ignore my suggestion).

Next, since you are so close to your dream when these "barriers" and "bugs" occur, it might be a good idea to make forming your dream your new anchor. Try visualizing where you want to be, or simply think deeply about it if you are not a fan of visualizing. This would serve to both fill your mind during NREM transitions ( perhaps even shorten their passage) and help override or put those bugs to good use, as HI or other distractions can be used to help form your dreams.

That's all I got for now; sorry if it wasn't enough -- you are asking a fairly tough question.

Good luck!

thank you Sageous. that what I was planing to do indeed: to focus in the dream formation, by visualizing or imagining some movements, or sensations.

I can ignore the idea of N-REM barriers, I just have to find a way to stay conscious during the sleep stages that could bring me to the REM.
this is where I am loosing myself for now.

I will now post here my next attempts (especially the nights I won't use Galantamine)

This morning, I tried several times, once after about 4hs of sleep, with a WBTB, another in the early morning, without WBTB.

-the first one, my WBTB lasted about 45 min, I read a book, then tried to count (normal counting) with a 20 seconds intervals between each count , but finally lost consciousness very quickly.
This very slow counting is very not for me !

-the second one, after about 7 pr 8 hours of sleep I tried the mantra "to stay concentrated" but because there was no WBTB I lost consciousness after few seconds.

This night, once again I naturally woke up after about 4.5h of sleep with the feeling that I can't sleep anymore.
Just before that I woke up at the end of each cycle with vivid dream memories.

My WBTB lasted something like an hour.
I tried the special counting technique I explain HERE, went from the wave 1 to the wave 9 and then back from the 8 to something like the 6 or 5 and lost consciousness.

The same thing happened when I woke up later (without WBTB this time), but I wasn't able to do it very long.
I was only able to do the waves fro 1 to 5 and ... black out.

hours passed by very fast between each micro awakening.
At the last moments of my sleep I tried to visualize dream scenes, but without any success, I didn't have any REM sleep anymore.

I missed the REM periods, and during the main attempt, the counting stuff became impossible to do after some periods, but it came pretty suddenly and I forgot to switch to the visualization when I noticed the first bug (that was the only one before the black out).

What I do during the WBTB was once again the worst thing to do: surfing on the net with my phone.
I have trouble to prevent me from doing this, and I know that, but with this feeling that I can't sleep anymore for a while when I wake up after 4.5h of sleep, it's like the need to feed my brain with data becomes stronger than me.
Have to fix it.

This is frustrating, but I am also very exited with this "every night" try... even if I would easily WILD with the help of Galantamine, I know that I am in a leaning process by trying it naturally, and that's what makes things interesting.

For the next tries I'm thinking about cutting the lenght of my counting process and alternate it with mantra only sequences.
for example

1)-doing the counting process with max wave set to 5
-then doing the mantra 5 times each time I have inhaled
-feeling my body and noticing if any bug occurred.

2)-doing the counting process with max wave set to 4
-doing the mantra 4 times
-feeling my body (and bug report)

3)-doing the counting process with max wave set to 3
-doing the mantra 3 times
-feeling my body

repeating the step 3 until I notice any bug
then switching to the dream construction attempts.

Quite a similar experience, once again. However, very interesting.

These few days i've been lazying about when it comes to my mantra, mainly because i got my sleep pattern all mixed up due to exams. This day is my 2nd serious attempt with this mantra.
The same as the last time, i did this as an experiment when going to bed at first, with my memory of what happened mixed up. I began discovering the reason why it works in the first place.

I went to bed at 12 night time. Same style of laying down. I started doing my "40 second wait" mantra. Shortly after doing it (roughly 1 minute?) I started losing it and thinking about random things. It all ended in me probably losing consciousness.

The good part?
Again, i got my awareness back during SP, got in 2 lucids.
One of the dreams was my most vivid lucid ever. I had almost clear vision!

I don't know why my dreams were short. Again i'll put it as "i did it when going to sleep without WBTB" excuse.
I didn't try control, but that's not the issue in hand right now.

What i get from all this?
Apparently with the "40 second wait" mantra. I was able to drift off, and somehow regain awareness later on. This can be because during the process, i had a very solid intention on being aware. This could mean this is a way to mix DILD/WILD/MILD? Having a random and intentional lucid dream, followed by sudden awareness even though i don't do awareness exercises at all.

I remember Reality checking at one point.

Interesting thing that happened to me:
I just awakened after a dream ended, i remember some of it. A group of students gathered in front of my house, and i was with them. There was a short girl oddly similar to "Hinami" from an anime called tokyo ghoul. She had a corvette that one teacher at my school drives. She got in the driver seat. I was sitting on the ground with my friend, and i was wearing a lab coat for some reason. I waved at her and asked her "are you the one from my house" as in if she is one of my family members. I don't know why i asked this question, may be some form of small awareness that made me want to check. She said yes anyways. As the dream moved on, i remember them wanting to take a group picture so we kind of lined up. As the picture was being taken, i heard a line from the game devil may cry 3 as he was preparing to take the picture. It lined up with "Jackpot!" the same time the phone took the picture. Shortly after that the dream ended.

Here, i woke up and instantly knew a dream had ended. I was thinking of DEILD but i opened my eyes and i thought the chance was gone.

I may eventually experiment with this anchor on some people to see if this one can work for others. The only change when someone else tries it is the mantra of their choice and the wait times to be shortened or lengthened depending on them.

Ah, i really should immediately try WBTB with this once i go on the holiday a few days from now.

Originally Posted by TDHXIII

What i get from all this?Apparently with the "40 second wait" mantra. I was able to drift off, and somehow regain awareness later on. This can be because during the process, i had a very solid intention on being aware. This could mean this is a way to mix DILD/WILD/MILD? Having a random and intentional lucid dream, followed by sudden awareness even though i don't do awareness exercises at all.

From what you describe this actually sounds like you were using MILD techniques to induce a DILD. You might want to look into MILD, if you haven't already. Given the similarities of your process to MILD's, there could be something there for you.

You might keep in mind as well that WILD and DILD are not techniques, but descriptions of the transition to lucidity; you really cannot mix them, because WILD and DILD are two very different things. You can certainly fail at a WILD attempt and later have a DILD as a result of your efforts to WILD, but that isn't really mixing them. Also, MILD is the only actual technique of the three, and you can certainly apply aspects of it to DILD or WILD.

Here, i woke up and instantly knew a dream had ended. I was thinking of DEILD but i opened my eyes and i thought the chance was gone.

It's not as easy, but DEILD's are still possible after you open your eyes...it couldn't hurt to try, right?

Ah, i really should immediately try WBTB with this once i go on the holiday a few days from now.

That would be a very good idea.

Sry for the self awareness part. It wasn't bcz of something you said, but I might have mixed it up with regular awareness.
Thnx for correcting me, I really feel bad if I spread wrong info.

On a side note, when we transition into a dream, it starts to form and so on. At this stage we start losing awareness of our bodies and surroundings which allows us to sink into the dream. Is that what's meant by "losing awareness in performing wild?" I hope I'm not being too vague. This does seem like a too general of a question I guess?

Anyways, I've tried proper wilds like 2-3 more nights since my last post, and they where completely terrible lol.
I didn't get any deep into the dive. I just couldn't focus. I'm just very very stressed bcz of my career choice and my finals, and I messed up my sleep schedule, which I'm fixing right now by staying up all night so I can sleep tonight at 8 pm a usual (it's 8:25AM now), then wake up 6AM next morning and bam! Plus I miss waking up early. I like that but I also like nighttime, which is why I love wbtbs so much too!
I'm a person who actually enjoys and looks forward to his long wbtbs
So, wild failure lately, but I have 100% right to blame my finals lol I've been doing this for more than a year I can tell by now what's causing a dry spell most of the time, especially wild dryspells.

Also TDHXIII, I like how you're working on figuring out how to get a proper balance between the interval of repeating a mantra then waiting a while, then repeating the mantra then waiting a while and so on, but you gotta remember that a wilder should allow himself to 'sense' when it's time to remind himself about him diving. There's no stiff timeline really. It's like waves. You can't really get a single measurement for them. Again, like a surfer learns by practice to surf the waves, you will too. Well estimating roughly this as a little guide might help I guess, but again, what I said. Also this part is also like surfing in a sense that you get your balance right through practice. Math isn't really how you get to the balance.

I'm just saying this bcz I want you to allow yourself to experiment and just surf, cuz that's mainly how you gain the skills. It's kinda like try and experiment and go with the wild flows and you'll get the hang of it with enough mileage. Again it's not as technical as you think it is. Just to be clear it does have some technicalities like timing the wbtb and amount of supplement if you use them and so on, but mainly it's just you, in the water, getting the feels and hang for it. You can't learn swimming without allowing yourself to learn by just throwing yourself into the water (I guess this is a good analogy?? Lol)

Originally Posted by Sageous

From what you describe this actually sounds like you were using MILD techniques to induce a DILD. You might want to look into MILD, if you haven't already. Given the similarities of your process to MILD's, there could be something there for you.

You might keep in mind as well that WILD and DILD are not techniques, but descriptions of the transition to lucidity; you really cannot mix them, because WILD and DILD are two very different things. You can certainly fail at a WILD attempt and later have a DILD as a result of your efforts to WILD, but that isn't really mixing them. Also, MILD is the only actual technique of the three, and you can certainly apply aspects of it to DILD or WILD.

It's interesting because i never really tried MILD before, but i got the sense of this being similar. It might be that with enough adjusting to the mantra wait times and with WBTB i might be able to make this a WILD instead of a MILD. The thing is that i always drifted away while doing this, sometimes i drift away into sleep and sometimes i get my consciousness back later. I initially wanted to do WILDs but accidentally started performing what seems to be MILDs. I'm not sure if this anchor can be manipulated to make the attempt a WILD instead. That is because of all the times i did this, none were WBTB. That could be the real reason why i lose my consciousness while doing this, drifting into the first stages of sleep right away..

Originally Posted by LouaiB

Also TDHXIII, I like how you're working on figuring out how to get a proper balance between the interval of repeating a mantra then waiting a while, then repeating the mantra then waiting a while and so on, but you gotta remember that a wilder should allow himself to 'sense' when it's time to remind himself about him diving. There's no stiff timeline really. It's like waves. You can't really get a single measurement for them. Again, like a surfer learns by practice to surf the waves, you will too. Well estimating roughly this as a little guide might help I guess, but again, what I said. Also this part is also like surfing in a sense that you get your balance right through practice. Math isn't really how you get to the balance.

I'm just saying this bcz I want you to allow yourself to experiment and just surf, cuz that's mainly how you gain the skills. It's kinda like try and experiment and go with the wild flows and you'll get the hang of it with enough mileage. Again it's not as technical as you think it is. Just to be clear it does have some technicalities like timing the wbtb and amount of supplement if you use them and so on, but mainly it's just you, in the water, getting the feels and hang for it. You can't learn swimming without allowing yourself to learn by just throwing yourself into the water (I guess this is a good analogy?? Lol)

I kind of get what you mean, to dynamically choose how i would use the anchor instead of a static one.. This takes a while though, i need a good number of successful attempts until i can get the "feel" for this anchor.

Originally Posted by LouaiB

On a side note, when we transition into a dream, it starts to form and so on. At this stage we start losing awareness of our bodies and surroundings which allows us to sink into the dream. Is that what's meant by "losing awareness in performing wild?" I hope I'm not being too vague. This does seem like a too general of a question I guess?

That is pretty vague, so here's a vague answer:

I suppose that could be what someone means by losing awareness during WILD. That would be "normal" awareness, though, rather than self-awareness, which of course in WILD you shouldn't concern yourself with anyway... But I personally would still disagree because, sure, during WILD you may be losing touch with your body because physical receptors are getting shut off, but your natural awareness is still working just fine, as a tool of your self-awareness. In other words, you are still able to be well aware of something, though it might not be your physical body; if you were not aware, then you would not be noticing all that HI, for instance.

Anyways, I've tried proper wilds like 2-3 more nights since my last post, and they where completely terrible lol. I didn't get any deep into the dive. I just couldn't focus. I'm just very very stressed bcz of my career choice and my finals, and I messed up my sleep schedule, which I'm fixing right now by staying up all night so I can sleep tonight at 8 pm a usual (it's 8:25AM now), then wake up 6AM next morning and bam! Plus I miss waking up early. I like that but I also like nighttime, which is why I love wbtbs so much too!
I'm a person who actually enjoys and looks forward to his long wbtbs
So, wild failure lately, but I have 100% right to blame my finals lol I've been doing this for more than a year I can tell by now what's causing a dry spell most of the time, especially wild dryspells.

I think the lesson here is that sometimes it's just a good idea to skip attempting a WILD altogether, and put it off for when your sleep schedule and mental state allow it.

Originally Posted by Sageous

That is pretty vague, so here's a vague answer:

I suppose that could be what someone means by losing awareness during WILD. That would be "normal" awareness, though, rather than self-awareness, which of course in WILD you shouldn't concern yourself with anyway... But I personally would still disagree because, sure, during WILD you may be losing touch with your body because physical receptors are getting shut off, but your natural awareness is still working just fine, as a tool of your self-awareness. In other words, you are still able to be well aware of something, though it might not be your physical body; if you were not aware, then you would not be noticing all that HI, for instance.



I think the lesson here is that sometimes it's just a good idea to skip attempting a WILD altogether, and put it off for when your sleep schedule and mental state allow it.

I understand what you mean, but there has been a question that has been haunting me for a long time. Why do we forget our usual falling-asleep period? Do we lose consciousness at that time? Memory? Why doesn't this happen though when we are wilding? Is it bcz maintaining self awareness 'preserves' our brainwave frequencies or whatever? Do I need to know this anyways??
This seems to be more neurology really I guess or whatever. I worry too much

Yeah I guess I won't be trying to LD these couple weeks until I finish my finals.
But on the bright side, I'm still awake! It's 6:15 PM now. I stayed up all this time and my sleep schedule will be fixed tonight!
Also this is especially good bcz a messed up sleep schedule ruins me. I would feel depressed all the time. I follow healthy diets and exercise every day at least an hour (I haven't broken that in like a year. I just do it bcz I have to since I must be walking around when listening to music and I must listen to music). All these combine for a better life and I heard it is highly beneficial for LDing too!
These would be nice tips for TDHXIII since diet and overall health plays a big part in LDing. Well I don't know if he already does them or not but meh....

@TDHXIII not just successes help you gain skills and reach the proper balances, but failures do too. Now this is not just some hippy philosophy, it's true. Must be exciting knowing that you just have to practice to get better at wild. When I started, this idea excited me a lot, gaining mileage and results will follow. I'm the type of person who doesn't mind time, but worries about if it's possible to achieve it or not, even if it took 20 years. I mean I do that with all my hobbies really, mainly art and music making. So yeah, be excited and motivated, and don't get frustrated bcz it takes time, and you WILL surely arrive if you stick to it.
There's a saying which goes :"A rocket doesn't fly you to space, a thousand rockets do" which basically means that you gotta push and expect failure and frustration, but be sure it's just part of how we learn and eventually reach our goals. You want to do your share of failures, as much as they are, bcz every failure is a success in the sense that it gets you a step further. So yeah....... Lol why is this always turning into a motivational speech. I'm just trying to help as much as I can.
So yeah, get back in the water! Keep swimming!

Originally Posted by LouaiB

I understand what you mean, but there has been a question that has been haunting me for a long time. Why do we forget our usual falling-asleep period? Do we lose consciousness at that time? Memory?
This seems to be more neurology really I guess or whatever. I worry too much

You are correct Louai, you might just worry too much! But to ease the haunting a bit:

We actually do not forget our usual falling asleep period (aka, when we're not attempting a WILD), because we were never there to witness it in the first place.

I don't remember the specific mechanisms involved, but suffice it to say that we are physiologically not meant to be conscious during the transition to sleep. I would imagine this came about pretty early on, evolutionarily, because wary cavemen (or more likely their distant predecessors) would be unwilling to fall asleep on their own, knowing that doing so might get them eaten. So basically consciousness is supposed to be absent during the transition to sleep. In other words, WILD is an unnatural activity, that defies the natural rules of sleep (as is LD'ing in general).

Why doesn't this happen though when we are wilding? Is it bcz maintaining self awareness 'preserves' our brainwave frequencies or whatever? Do I need to know this anyways??

The greatest difficulty with WILD is that it does happen to us while we are falling asleep, and we must develop strong skills to counter the natural process and stay conscious while our body falls asleep. And yes, maintaining our waking-life self-awareness throughout the dive is indeed how we do it, though it probably doesn't have anything to do with brainwaves, because brainwaves are the product of mental activity, and not its progenitor. Perhaps something physiological is being effected by the presence of our consciousness during WILD, but I'm not sure that that something is actually changing things in the brain to keep us aware, or else we would not experience things like HI or other falling asleep sensations.

Finally, no, as far as successfully completing WILD's is concerned you do not need to know these things anyway.


I just noticed that, except for the brainwaves bit, you seemed to have already answered all your questions correctly in your post -- all the more reason to not let the concept bother you!

Originally Posted by LouaiB

@TDHXIII not just successes help you gain skills and reach the proper balances, but failures do too. Now this is not just some hippy philosophy, it's true. Must be exciting knowing that you just have to practice to get better at wild. When I started, this idea excited me a lot, gaining mileage and results will follow. I'm the type of person who doesn't mind time, but worries about if it's possible to achieve it or not, even if it took 20 years. I mean I do that with all my hobbies really, mainly art and music making. So yeah, be excited and motivated, and don't get frustrated bcz it takes time, and you WILL surely arrive if you stick to it.
There's a saying which goes :"A rocket doesn't fly you to space, a thousand rockets do" which basically means that you gotta push and expect failure and frustration, but be sure it's just part of how we learn and eventually reach our goals. You want to do your share of failures, as much as they are, bcz every failure is a success in the sense that it gets you a step further. So yeah....... Lol why is this always turning into a motivational speech. I'm just trying to help as much as I can.
So yeah, get back in the water! Keep swimming!

Well i'm mainly getting closer to the thing. Due to the way i'm doing it these last few days, i'm getting into a situation of slowly losing grip on consciousness while doing my anchor.
This is a good sign because i still have a chance to make my awareness stick back up each time it goes low. This way i'll be able to witness the process fully, without going into a blank space until the dream forms up. It only needs more practice, i need to figure out the process so that i can add a few tweaks here and there that will make me boost my awareness every time it starts dropping.

This night, because I had got some sleep debt under my hand, I decided to use my Rem-Dreamer with a setting (TWC medium) that sends 7 series of increasing clue when it detects REM, each clue consisting of a growing amount of led flashs , with 30 second with nothing between each series, and the two last series contain beeping sounds.
The aim is to wake me up few minutes after each time I enter in rem sleep.
The fact that I don't notice the flashing only series before the beeping sounds wake me up is a kind of guarantee that I am indeed in REM sleep.
Obviously my goal was to try a WILD each time the mask wakes me up, as soon as I have pushed the RC buttons that simultaneously stops the series and add 10 minutes of stand bye (30 min if I press the button 3 times in a row, for example)

The point is that each time I was awoken by the mask, I felt back to sleep about 5 seconds after having pushed the button, each time I did it, I wasn't able to practice any anchor and eventually just lost consciousness.

The mask has goes off 11 times during the night, I must have been awoken between 5 and 11 times by this process.
I practiced two WBTB:
-the first one after 3 hours of sleep, I leaved the bed and went in another room, went back to bed after 30 min, putting the mask on my head and turning it ON with some stand bye delay.
-the second one happened after about 7hours of sleep, when I toke some drugs for the headache I had been suffering from, and when I was to the point of returning to the the sofa, my girlfriend appeared from nowhere (which scared the hell out of me) because she was on the point of preparing herself for going at work, and so climbed the stairway and returned to the bedroom with the mask on my head still scanning for REM sleep.
the final awakening was after 11hrs of sleep.

Each time the mask woke me up, I remembered a fresh dream, so this works pretty well for artificially wake me up from the beginning of a dream, and I was successful to quickly fall back to sleep (which is a good point for WILD) , the only issue is that I loose consciousness two quickly if I just press the button to temporally turn the mask off.

I know that a way to exploit this to WILD/DEILD musts exist, but I have to find the good timing and protocol to make it happen.

^^ Wow; that's a lot of work, Kaan! I imagine that somewhere along the line you will see some fruit borne, especially if you are seeing 11 hours' sleep in your effort. I know you will also include the fundamentals in your process, but I figured just for the record I should mention that the mask and careful timing are only helpful if your mind is prepared to be lucid.

Also:

Originally Posted by Kaan

The fact that I don't notice the flashing only series before the beeping sounds wake me up is a kind of guarantee that I am indeed in REM sleep.

I'm not so sure about that. I would think that when in NREM you would be even less likely to notice the flashes, because they (the flashes) have no way to incorporate themselves into your dream perception. For instance, in the dream you don't actually see a flash, but something that "fits" in your dream scene, like a sunrise, car headlights, a lighthouse or perhaps everything just gets brighter; that will not happen in NREM. Also, if you are actually seeing the flashes themselves, there is a chance that you are at the end of your REM cycle because you are close enough to wakefulness to properly recognize outside stimuli.

On that note, do you do any exercises to teach your mind to be ready for the lights, like doing an RC every time you see a bright or unusual light?

I know that a way to exploit this to WILD/DEILD musts exist, but I have to find the good timing and protocol to make it happen.

I think you will.

thank you sageous.
It is possible that some of the 11 times my R-D went off last night were not followed by any awakening, and, you are right, among the times It did wake me up, some of these times could have been triggered while I were on N-REM sleep.

REM detection is not perfect on these devices, it wasn't 20 years ago when I used my NovaDreamer, and it is still not nowaday, with both of my 2 REM-Dreamers, but I managed to set the Eye movement sensitivity to one of it's minimums to avoid too much false REM detections.
The criteria I also use to decide if it woke me of from REM or not is the fresh memory of a DREAM, and if I also have an erection, I'm quite sure there is some REM left to try a WILD.

You are also right about the incorporation of the clues on the dream scenario, and I know what kind of work I 'd need to do to train myself to recognize a clue within the dream (police, fire, night club, and so on) but I do not want to spend time on DILD purpose anymore, I am all dedicated to the WILD/DEILD game.

I have been LDing for more than 30 years now, and I am done with DILD techniques.
It's like my brain has become a expert to keep my dreams Non lucid if I try to hack it with a DILD approach.
So now I want to learn the WILD stuff, and when I use a LD device, it is mostly to wake me up at some special moments, like at the beginning of a Dream.

For My WILD quest, I'm very motivated, and like you said, mistakes, failures are ways of improving, maybe even more than successes.
I think I will alternate between classical techniques to attain a WILD, like following your class, and more complicated ways of achieving this transition state.
After all, I think the most important thing is to be conscious from the few seconds before the REM window is opening, until you are indeed in the dream.
It works when you are conscious during all the stages from N-REM1 to REM, and it also work when you find yourself conscious just when you are to the point of entering the REM stage.
My "lucky" WILD I have been having by accident, without even trying to WILD, where so easy!
I just have to make it happen when I want to.

Originally Posted by Kaan

I have been LDing for more than 30 years now, and I am done with DILD techniques.
It's like my brain has become a expert to keep my dreams Non lucid if I try to hack it with a DILD approach.
So now I want to learn the WILD stuff, and when I use a LD device, it is mostly to wake me up at some special moments, like at the beginning of a Dream.

Ah, I see! I apparently wasn't paying attention. In that context, then, your plan makes a lot more sense to me, and I think it might just work, especially for DEILD... I hope you'll let us know if you come to a "sweet spot" with your machine... or perhaps learn that you might not need one with classic WILD/DILD practice! Very good idea building your "regular" WILD/DEILD skills as well, as having them in hand is always a good plan.