Thread: What happened? Post Your WILD Attempts, Good or Bad, Here

That seemed a good effort, with one glaring (and perhaps surprising, to you) problem among a couple of small tweaks that could be made:

First, the big one:

Originally Posted by EmptyBucket

After about 10 more minutes I find that constantly repeating the mantra seems that it may be keeping me too awake, I decide it would make more sense to let my mind drift on whatever thoughts arise, and when I found myself lost in thought, to reel myself back by reciting the mantra at that point. Although there were times where I didn't have many thoughts to get lost in so I would end up in a sort of meditative like blank mind canvas state. I figured to combat this I would go over my past dreams, which worked fine for a bit but I felt I would always return to that blank space and even check up on how relaxed I felt (which doesn't seem like a good idea to focus on the physical body).

I think you might be working mightily against yourself here.

That "meditative like blank mind canvas state" you sought to avoid is, to me, exactly where you want to be to succeed with WILD. What better slate on which to draw a dream than a blank one? That state is almost a fantasy to me, BTW, because my mind is endlessly producing new, distracting, trains of thought, and ignoring or at least redirecting those trains is a long term issue with me... so yeah, I'm a bit jealous that you have a natural talent that I do not, but aside from that I highly recommend that you embrace that talent rather than fight it with weapons that will surely prevent your WILD transition.

Though it does sound good on paper (as it were), your "reeling yourself back in" technique is sort of like an alcoholic saying "I'll just have a sip or two, and when I start getting drunk I'll stop drinking and be sober again." Allowing yourself to follow your random thoughts -- making them matter, even if you tell yourself they do not -- is a very good way to avoid lucidity. Yes, allowing those thoughts might be a better way to fall asleep, but there is a reason for that, and part of that reason is that they provide a sort of mental salve to dull your mind as your body settles into sleep; dulling your mind, unfortunately, is the last thing you want to do during a WILD dive. Yes, waiting for your body to fall asleep is probably the most difficult aspect of WILD, because you must literally stay awake and fall asleep at the same time. Making it easier to fall asleep by letting your mind fall asleep too is sort of anathema to the process, I think!

In the end, it is better to let those random thoughts flow right by you, just as you would during meditation, and see that blank mind slate as a goal or an asset, and not a problem.

So it seemed I need a thought that would be constant and occupy me- So I imagined climbing a dream ladder endlessly, I focused on this for about 5 minutes.
After that I felt myself thinking about just getting up, gave it about 5 more minutes and got up.

That was probably a good idea, but probably a little too late; you likely were pretty much done with your sleep cycle at that point, so fighting to get back to sleep while also staying aware would have been pretty difficult. As an aside: you did make an interesting choice here, given that such a technique is meant to help you avoid thoughts and develop that blank slate; maybe you were trying to tell yourself something?

Okay, that was the big one, here are some responses to your actual questions:

-Attempt made way too late after initial sleep (8-9 hours)

Probably.

The reason I recommend a WBTB after about 5 hours' sleep is because you are both going back to sleep when REM periods are easily caught and your body is still interested in getting back to sleep so you can complete your sleep cycle. If you do your WBTB well, you are doing your walking about while your body is still in its sleep cycle/thinks it is asleep; after 9 hrs sleep it gets a bit harder to convince your body that it isn't time to wake up yet.

-Sleeping position- maybe I should try my side next time

That's not a bad idea, but keep in mind that the point of lying on your back is to make falling asleep a bit more difficult. In this difficulty lies the magic of WILD: You are basically waiting out your body as it falls asleep, and you should be trying to avoid the things that make falling asleep easier so that your mind doesn't get too comfortable and allows itself to join your body in sleep.

-Focused too much on repeating mantra, the drift and reel technique I employed seemed promising for finding balance

It is possible to focus too much on your mantra, making it the goal of your efforts rather than a LD. From what you described, though, it seemed to me that your mantra was working just fine as a tool to maintain focus, and never became the object of your focus.

-Need to have dreamy thoughts and visualizations prepared perhaps?

Sure, why not? Dreamy thoughts or well-set intention are always a good thing. Visualization is a good thing, if you can manage it, especially later in the dive, as you ride the fence between wake and sleep.

-Was trying to overthink everything and come up with solutions in real time (perhaps this kept me awake)

Probably. WILD works best when your mind is calm and processes are simple. Questioning yourself, changing up techniques midstream, or thinking about the process at all during the process, is never a good idea, because it will help keep your body awake and also may lead you to unconsciously intellectualize about the paradox of staying awake while you fall asleep

-Killed my chance when I got excited by the noise?

Probably not, as you seem to have handled its arrival well.

This is probably not going to help but well, every time I try to WILD, I set my alarm, wake up and the second I lie down to attempt I just get extremely uncomfortable, no itching or dry mouths, simply general uncomfortability, whatever position I lie in its all the same. If any of you have had the same issue and managed to solve it, I do would happy to know how :p (thanks in advantage)

^^ I'm not sure if this will help, but you might consider not using an alarm.

Alarms by their nature tend to, well, alarm you, and that sudden awakening may have caused your body to become fully awake. Once fully awake, your body sees its sleep cycle as ended and may not be interested in going back to sleep (hence the discomfort). If you can manage to do your WBTB after a natural awakening, you might find yourself more comfortable after lying down.

Also, you didn't mention the length of your WBTB, and what you were doing during it, but you might want to make it a bit longer, and keep your thoughts as calm and dreamy as possible. That sounds counter-intuitive, I know, but sometimes a longer WBTB can give you time to gather your lucid -- and sleepy -- state of mind, and going back to bed can be a more natural event.

Again, I'm not sure if I'm even close with this one, but it's what I got...

Today I tried 3 times to have a WILD. In the first 2 I fall asleep while repeating my mantra, on third one I make affirmation that I'm wilding and passively focus on my vision. I start to repeat the mantra and after several minutes dream images have started to appear, and after another two minutes they become 3d like, but for some reason I couldn't get in the dream. I thought maybe I must stop repeating the mantra and suddenly felt a pull in sensation, which transported me in the dream scene. Immediately started to stabilize the dream by rubbing my hands and touching nearby objects, the touch sensation of the objects was very accurate to my surprise. Just start to walk around and dream fall apart, end up in the void. I try again from there but felt a muscle tension across my body and wake up.

So what happened, why fell apart? Did I try to touch to many things at the same time? Perhaps I had to stay in one place for a longer time, before move on or maybe because I got a little excited.

One more thing I notice, is that before I have been trying to induce hypnagogia images or wait for them to occur(focus on my physical eyes and lids), but in my history I rarely get hypnagogia(colors and shapes) instead I have always getting full dream images/scenes, so it seems reading a tutorials over internet about waiting hypnagogia to occur and ride it to dream world was a mistake on my part.

One more question did you repeat your mantra to the moment you enter the dream or you stop sometime before that?

^^I have what may seem an odd guess at what happened here, but maybe it will help: Perhaps, on that third try, you were never in a dream at all.

One of the bits of noise you might encounter while straddling the fence between wake and sleep is a Dreamlet. Dreamlets aren't really dreams; they are brief flashes of imagery that aren't sourced in your dreaming mind's production facilities, but from somewhere else -- perhaps as simple perceptual backwash meant to fill the void during your transition; to give you something to look at. That sounded better in my head, but suffice it to say that dreamlets, though certainly dream-like in appearance, aren't really dreams, and can be gone as quickly as they appear.

This is why it is a good idea to maintain your mantra, and focus, for a few moments after dream imagery first appears. That way, if you are in a dreamlet, you'll be poised to continue your WILD transition after the dreamlet passes. It is possible, with experience, to work the dreamlet imagery into a full-blown dream, but I suggest you worry about that later (to do so you would basically focus on a piece of the imagery and use it to form a desired dream by making it sort of a guide for your dreaming mind when it finally gets to work).

So: What could have happened here is that you encountered a dreamlet, thought you were dreaming, and stepped away from your WILD to enjoy it; when the dreamlet passed, so did your WILD.

Next time, I suggest that you simply assume you're witnessing a dreamlet, and, rather than allow yourself to be pulled into it, just calmly let it pass (I'm guessing your interest in the imagery did the pulling, and not some external force, BTW). If it doesn't pass, and continues to form into a full-blown dream, that's great; you will still have completed your WILD transition. If it is a dreamlet it does pass and you find yourself back in nothing, you should still, thanks to remaining calm and focused, be able to continue your transition without feeling a need to wake up.

Also:

Originally Posted by StarSeeker

One more thing I notice, is that before I have been trying to induce hypnagogia images or wait for them to occur(focus on my physical eyes and lids), but in my history I rarely get hypnagogia(colors and shapes) instead I have always getting full dream images/scenes, so it seems reading a tutorials over internet about waiting hypnagogia to occur and ride it to dream world was a mistake on my part.

This is what made me think of the dreamlets, because it seems you are prone to have them.

I'm not sure why you would want to induce hypnagogia, and suggest you avoid doing so, because all that would amount to is a distraction from your WILD; so yeah, could be a mistake: Sure, if you regularly experience hypnagogia, you can consider it a passing signpost or use it to form your dreams, but don't try to force it upon yourself... not that you need to, because it looks like you can use dreamlets in the same manner, and they come to you readily.

One more question did you repeat your mantra to the moment you enter the dream or you stop sometime before that?

I suggest repeating it until you are fully confident that you are in a dream; try not to stop before the dream starts because, well, you really don't know when the dream will start, right?

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^I have what may seem an odd guess at what happened here, but maybe it will help: Perhaps, on that third try, you were never in a dream at all.

^^' It was deffintely a full blown 3D dream, I was in a living room, there was a tv on the left, couch+table in front of me and a big window(it was night) It was very solid and textures of the wall,couch and the table were very detailed.Maybe fell apart because of combination of move too soon and touch too many things. Next time I will rub my hands more time before move on, but thanks anyway for the expansive insight.

That you call dreamlets, I call dream images. They move from B&W distorted images to colorful fleeting images to life like scenery images. So from here on I'm gonna use these dreamlets as entry point to the actual dream, I just need to work on the type of the entry. Frankly this wasn't my first WILD, only first induced with method, the others were more spontaneous from naps(like 30-40). Have some VILDs too(like 10), they are more bizzare in nature. I have 3 types of them:

1)If I see a dream object I can try to grab it with my invisible hands^^'. Last time grabbed a bottle of wine and suddenly found myself in a kitchen(maybe it works based on associations)

2)I move like a ghost in the void and can see walking people from above and enter in their heads, and have a real dream body.

3)I call them walking dreams. I imagine a simple dream scene and start walking, if I stop walking the dream fall apart. I can fly or drive a car in these, but the dream logic is not very stable. Doors are very special in this type of VILD, they always lead me to a different places.

I'm guessing your interest in the imagery did the pulling, and not some external force, BTW.

lol I don't had any interest in that moment, but I was wondering why I was outside the frame and couldn't enter the already formed dream scene.(It's like there was a glass wall between me and scenery) So when stop chanting my mantra, something like external force pull me in.

Also:
This is what made me think of the dreamlets, because it seems you are prone to have them.

Mayble because I'm really good at daydreaming, I daydream all the time^^

I'm not sure why you would want to induce hypnagogia, and suggest you avoid doing so, because all that would amount to is a distraction from your WILD; so yeah, could be a mistake: Sure, if you regularly experience hypnagogia, you can consider it a passing signpost or use it to form your dreams, but don't try to force it upon yourself... not that you need to, because it looks like you can use dreamlets in the same manner, and they come to you readily.

Yeah it seems I was one step ahead of hypnagogia, so what I tried to do was two step back and one foward XD. The only hypnagogia I ever was able to induce was a tunnel of flashing light, like I was passing through a portal of wormhole.

^^ Okay then. I gave it a shot, based on what you gave me in your post; sorry I missed!

One quick thing to consider: the imagery of dreamlets can be every bit as "real" as actual dreams; it is their length and source that makes them dreamlets, and not their quality.

Otherwise, you seem to already have plenty of expertise and experience; I'm not sure why you asked me a question at all

Good luck in your next dive!

Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ Okay then. I gave it a shot, based on what you gave me in your post; sorry I missed!

No problem, at least you point me for what to watch out during transition and where I can go wrong^^

One quick thing to consider: the imagery of dreamlets can be every bit as "real" as actual dreams; it is their length and source that makes them dreamlets, and not their quality.

The way you are explaining it, it sounds like I strike a short Rem episode, my Rem timing is a mess.

Otherwise, you seem to already have plenty of expertise and experience; I'm not sure why you asked me a question at all

One can say that I'm not very confident in my own skills, so I always need a little push to get going.

Good luck in your next dive!

Sure thing
Now that I finaly catch the right TV channel, I only need to fine tune it, if you know what I mean
Everything combined and if I can muster myself to start RC during the day, maybe I will be able to inrease my monthly average from 14 to at least 30(fingers crossed)

p.s. After todays WILD I started to have some freaky auditory halucination while awake, even now while typing this in quiet room I hear a music in the background, it's very creepy :X

Originally Posted by Fly_by_Night

When WILDing Im typically self-aware at the beginning, then I sense 1 or 2 small "dreamlets" or HI images or sounds, very brief, they last 1 second or so. I ignore them, just let them pass and keep thingking, "OK, Im still aware, here we go"....and BAM, before I know what happened, I wake up and realize I had fallen asleep for XYZ time.

This! So much this! I have been scouring the forum looking for tips on "making the dive" or successfully transitioning from this state into a dream without loss of waking consciousness.

The only time I really am able to make the transition is if I manage to DEILD. On those rare occasions it's like the dream is "closer" and more immediate, which makes it easier to get sucked into them and join. The DEILD is the only time I would say I have entered a dream with waking like consciousness.

The WILD continues to elude me...

NEED ADVICE and encouragement.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Okay guys, I know you know this, but I'm going to say it just one more time: You do need to fall asleep in order to have a successful WILD.

I assume you guys are talking about losing waking-life self-awareness while you fall asleep, and that the quick onset of sleep might be preventing you from maintaining that awareness, and that does need to be dealt with. But I highly recommend that, as you look at your own process, you try to separate that need to maintain self-awareness from the process of falling asleep, even if it only helps you come to appreciate your falling asleep "affliction" ... a quick return to sleep really ought to help, and not hurt, and trying to stay physically awake during a WILD dive is simply not a good idea, as doing so runs counter to the whole process.

Hi Sageous, I have read your WILD tutorial. This thread seams to run along the same lines as the problem"s" I have when attempting a WILD so I thought it might be appropriate to ask my question here, I hope thats okay.

Could you say more about what you mean when you talk about separating "waking consciousness" from the need to fall asleep? I think this is what I am struggling with.

Let me try to explain more.

It's like I am trying to "stay awake" and I feel like I have failed the WILD if I "fall asleep". I have heard people talk about entering the dream without loosing consciousness and maybe I have misunderstood this? You say "you do have to fall asleep to have a successful WILD". Can you help me understand more how to separate falling asleep from losing awareness?

My WILD attempts often fail with me feeling like I have missed the opportunity to enter or transition into a dream, then rolling over and quickly falling asleep. It's not like I am to awake to fall asleep which seems to be some peoples problem. Rather, it's like when I am still self-conscious I can't transition, then I fall asleep.

Uhg I feel sure that didn't make sense! Sorry I don't know how to explain it more clearly, I just don't have the right language.

^^ That is a very interesting question, Sangfoot!

It's interesting because you are having a problem with the very heart of successful LD'ing, be it WILD or DILD. Lucidity, which is essentially the presence of your waking-life self-awareness in a dream, is a paradox in itself, because you must be awake while also asleep. Coming to live with this paradox, and understanding that it can exist, is, in my opinion, the root of learning to lucid dream.

More specifically, I don't discuss "separating "waking consciousness" from the need to fall asleep" when I talk about these things, I talk rather about maintaining waking-life consciousness while you body falls asleep. There is no separation, nor can there be; only a sort of cooperation (based mindset, discipline, and practice) that allows your waking-life presence to remain with you while your body falls asleep.

In order to lucid dream, you must be asleep, period. Being asleep, though, does not mean being unconscious; that is something else altogether: being unconscious is akin to being under anesthesia, or, say, having been recently clubbed with a baseball bat (or, arguably -- though I don't totally agree, being in NREM early in your sleep cycle -- which is why it's not a good idea to attempt WILD right at bedtime). Consciousness is present throughout the sleep cycle, especially during REM periods; you must be conscious to witness dream imagery, even if you are not self-aware enough to realize the imagery is false. To assume that consciousness does not exist during sleep is not only incorrect, but definitely a real obstacle to successfully becoming lucid -- especially with WILD.

Also, since this paradox of being awake while being asleep is difficult to understand, much less use as a tool, WILD's -- and LD'ing in general -- can indeed be difficult. We are not, after all, naturally designed to be awake while asleep... but the best stuff never comes easy.


Since that all seems a bit unwieldy, so let me try again by directly answering your questions:

Originally Posted by Sangfoot

It's like I am trying to "stay awake" and I feel like I have failed the WILD if I "fall asleep". I have heard people talk about entering the dream without loosing consciousness and maybe I have misunderstood this? You say "you do have to fall asleep to have a successful WILD". Can you help me understand more how to separate falling asleep from losing awareness?

Try not to think of it as "staying awake," and try to ignore the folks who put WILD in those terms. Think of it more of staying self-aware, of maintaining your waking-life presence while your body goes about the business of falling asleep and generating dreams. There is no separation going on, at all... what happens with WILD is more of a joining, in fact: a melding of your waking-life self with the processes it usually misses during sleep.

My WILD attempts often fail with me feeling like I have missed the opportunity to enter or transition into a dream, then rolling over and quickly falling asleep. It's not like I am too awake to fall asleep which seems to be some peoples problem. Rather, it's like when I am still self-conscious I can't transition, then I fall asleep.

I don't know how long your attempts last, but it could be that you're just not waiting long enough for sleep; perhaps giving up a moment too soon. The reason we lie on our backs during WILD attempts is to make it a little harder to fall asleep, which makes it easier to hold onto your self-awareness right up to the moment of transition to sleep, and hopefully long enough to keep it throughout that transition, and your dream.

So the fact that you went right to sleep upon rolling over tells me that you may have been very close to your WILD transition, but just didn't quite give it enough time. In other words, your body was just about to fall asleep, but your waking-life presence lost patience or interest and, well, gave up.

The rollover urge is common to WILD, BTW, and it can be an exercise of real discipline to overcome it. But if you can continue to maintain your focus and presence during that urge (which can indeed manifest as a feeling of failure, as well as discomfort), you might find that your WILD transition is only moments away. Patience, in WILD, is paramount; managing to exercise it right at that moment can be very rewarding.

Sorry I don't know how to explain it more clearly, I just don't have the right language.

Sometimes I wonder if the right language even exists for this stuff...


tl;dr: It's not about separating waking-life consciousness from the sleep process, Sangfoot; WILD is about melding waking-life self-awareness with the sleep process so that you can ride along with your body as it falls asleep and begins to dream. This paradox of staying awake while you fall asleep can be difficult to come to terms with, but once you do, WILD transitions should come much more easily. Also: should you find yourself losing patience and wanting to roll over and go to sleep, convince yourself yo give your dive a few more minutes, as you might be on the threshold of a WILD.

Wow Sageous thank you for your thoughtful response!

Originally Posted by Sageous

It's interesting because you are having a problem with the very heart of successful LD'ing, be it WILD or DILD. Lucidity, which is essentially the presence of your waking-life self-awareness in a dream, is a paradox in itself, because you must be awake while also asleep. Coming to live with this paradox, and understanding that it can exist, is, in my opinion, the root of learning to lucid dream.

Yes, this seems very accurate to me, lines up very well with what I have been experiencing. Today I will definitely be pondering this paradox more.

Where this paradox really shows itself for me is in the dreamlets I have while attempting to WILD. I have noticed a feeling of "coming back" to myself after the one or two second dreamlet is over. As if for that split moment my "waking awareness" went away and was snapping back to itself. I am very familiar with this feeling right now because last night I had maybe ten of these minny dreamlets during my WILD attempt. During the attempt I was of course excited by the appearance of these dreamlets because I felt it meant I was close, even though I know they are noise I am supposed to ignore. But each time they would end I felt defeated as I now know I was running up against this paradox you are talking about. I felt defeated because I have not been thinking about WILD as a blending, a fusion, but I have expected to transition to a dream with my "waking consciousness" FULLY intact, and the snapping back feeling I had after the dreamlet meant my awareness had failed.

Originally Posted by Sageous

In order to lucid dream, you must be asleep, period. Being asleep, though, does not mean being unconscious.

Try not to think of it as "staying awake," and try to ignore the folks who put WILD in those terms. Think of it more of staying self-aware, of maintaining your waking-life presence while your body goes about the business of falling asleep and generating dreams. There is no separation going on, at all... what happens with WILD is more of a joining, in fact: a melding of your waking-life self with the processes it usually misses during sleep.

tl;dr: It's not about separating waking-life consciousness from the sleep process, Sangfoot; WILD is about melding waking-life self-awareness with the sleep process so that you can ride along with your body as it falls asleep and begins to dream. This paradox of staying awake while you fall asleep can be difficult to come to terms with, but once you do, WILD transitions should come much more easily. Also: should you find yourself losing patience and wanting to roll over and go to sleep, convince yourself yo give your dive a few more minutes, as you might be on the threshold of a WILD.

This language and concept discussing this paradox is really helping me a lot.

I have been conceptualizing my waking awareness as what is "me". Perhaps there are other things that are "me" as well though. Like even the strong emotions I have during non lucid dreams feels very much mine, even though there is awareness lacking during the time I experience them. Thinking of my waking awareness as only a part of myself, that needs to re-merge, join, fuse, with everything else that makes up a dream is an interesting way to think about this paradox.

Does it sound like my thinking is on track here? Do you really think that your "waking awareness" can persist beyond "falling asleep" and rejoin with a dream to become lucid?

I'm almost imagining like a cloud of light that represents my waking awareness hovering over my body as I fall asleep, then lingering for a moment even after I am no longer consciously making it to join with the dream me?

I need more time to consider this paradox. You are right, this is the wall that my WILD and even other lucid dreaming efforts have been running up against. How to fall asleep yet remain aware, even "wakingly aware", but also actually fall asleep.

tl;dr: Thank you Sageous! Thank you, this language and idea of this paradox gives me hope that I can progress. I am excited to know myself more, to explore these things that have perhaps always been a part of me but I have never been aware of, this is very fun for me.

Uh-oh, I think I might of left something out...

Originally Posted by Sangfoot

I have been conceptualizing my waking awareness as what is "me". Perhaps there are other things that are "me" as well though. Like even the strong emotions I have during non lucid dreams feels very much mine, even though there is awareness lacking during the time I experience them. Thinking of my waking awareness as only a part of myself, that needs to re-merge, join, fuse, with everything else that makes up a dream is an interesting way to think about this paradox.

That's pretty much it, except this: It's all you, Sangfoot.

Your awareness is you, as is your physical body, as are your emotions, etc. Even the things with which you interact in reality are sort of you. The unification of all those things under one umbrella of presence -- aka, self-awareness -- is essentially what lucidity is. In a sense, your waking-life self-awareness isn't the part of you that is "you," it is simply the result of your coming to understand your presence in reality, and your interaction with it. This ability to perceive all these things as you, combined with the knowledge that "all of you" is also an integral part of reality, is a non-dual perspective.

A non-dual perspective runs in opposition to our default -- dual -- perspective, which basically is one where a separate "you" is experiencing everything -- including parts of your own psyche and physical body -- as something other than, and unattached, to you. Master a non-dual perspective, and that paradox will disappear. Now here comes the fun part, which I'd bet that many here will be able to recite without reading a word:

In dreams, everything is you. The entire dreamworld is, essentially, a perfect fusion of all your bits; indeed, the dreamworld itself is you. To establish a non-dual perspective during the dream is to establish lucidity (not to mention opening some pretty amazing doors, experientially). If you can establish this perspective during your WILD, lucidity is pretty much guaranteed -- provided, of course, you allow your body to fall asleep!

All this is normally "down the road" sort of stuff, but I figured it would be worth adding today.

Does it sound like my thinking is on track here?

Yup!

Do you really think that your "waking awareness" can persist beyond "falling asleep" and rejoin with a dream to become lucid?

I sure hope so, because that is pretty much the definition of WILD if not LD'ing in general!

I'm almost imagining like a cloud of light that represents my waking awareness hovering over my body as I fall asleep, then lingering for a moment even after I am no longer consciously making it to join with the dream me?

Hopefully what I wrote above made sense to you, and now you're thinking that wouldn't be such a good idea...

Originally Posted by Sageous

Your awareness is you, as is your physical body, as are your emotions, etc. Even the things with which you interact in reality are sort of you. The unification of all those things under one umbrella of presence -- aka, self-awareness -- is essentially what lucidity is. In a sense, your waking-life self-awareness isn't the part of you that is "you," it is simply the result of your coming to understand your presence in reality, and your interaction with it. This ability to perceive all these things as you, combined with the knowledge that "all of you" is also an integral part of reality, is a non-dual perspective.

A non-dual perspective runs in opposition to our default -- dual -- perspective, which basically is one where a separate "you" is experiencing everything -- including parts of your own psyche and physical body -- as something other than, and unattached, to you. Master a non-dual perspective, and that paradox will disappear.

My mind is being blown right now.

Let me see if I am understanding you right. In my post I talked about a me "waking awareness" re-joining/fusing with another me "dream non-lucidity/emotions". This as you say could be considered a dual reality perspective. But you are saying

Originally Posted by Sageous

In dreams, everything is you. The entire dreamworld is, essentially, a perfect fusion of all your bits; indeed, the dreamworld itself is you. To establish a non-dual perspective during the dream is to establish lucidity (not to mention opening some pretty amazing doors, experientially). If you can establish this perspective during your WILD, lucidity is pretty much guaranteed -- provided, of course, you allow your body to fall asleep!

I am not sure I can conceptualize what a "me" in waking or dream life is like that doesn't include a "waking self-awareness" that experiences and is "aware" of it. Perhaps that is the paradox, the non-dual perspective, that I have completely failed to consider? How am I aware of that which I am unaware of? Lucidity, huh, indeed. I am seeing a path to "increase" lucidity that seems way beyond goals like; increase dream recall, sleep more, practice RC etc...

This especially

Originally Posted by Sageous

Your awareness is you, as is your physical body, as are your emotions, etc. Even the things with which you interact in reality are sort of you. The unification of all those things under one umbrella of presence -- aka, self-awareness -- is essentially what lucidity is.

Seems to have huge impact even beyond dreaming, which I think is good. I am sure there are aspects of my waking life that are held captive by a dual perspective. Lucidity is far more than being awake while dreaming in this context.

I come back to the question how do I become aware of what I am not aware of? And perhaps that is already being answered by many of the guides and techniques taught to increase lucidity. I am very curious though, what comes to your mind with that question?

Also... do you believe that pursuing lines of thinking like this will help me experience more and better lucid dreams? Please tell me where my thinking is wrong! This is so helpful!

Originally Posted by Sageous

Your awareness is you, as is your physical body, as are your emotions, etc. Even the things with which you interact in reality are sort of you. The unification of all those things under one umbrella of presence -- aka, self-awareness -- is essentially what lucidity is. In a sense, your waking-life self-awareness isn't the part of you that is "you," it is simply the result of your coming to understand your presence in reality, and your interaction with it.

I have been pondering this non-dual idea. It is like a unifying idea bringing together many seemingly separate ideas on emotions, self-hood, identity, reality etc.. It seems significant and I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly, is there a book or something lol?

I want to record them here because it is you Sageous that has sparked them, but it seems like this thread might not be the best place for this type of discussion.

I have been practicing Hukif's gravity RC for several days now, and one thing I am finding is that I am just not as "Lucid" in waking life as I assumed I was. I often don't understand my presence in reality, and my interaction with it. In fact I notice mechanisms like avoidance, day dreaming etc.. I have in place that work against this type of lucid understanding and awareness.

Here is what I really want to clarify. I really like the idea of lucid dreaming being me gaining an awareness of my presence and interaction in "dream reality", that which is me and always has been "me". Even the idea that there are dream senses that are different than waking body sensations. Dream control becomes not my domination or assertion, but more of an exploration of what is already me, my presence is this "dream reality".

Does this sound right? I guess I don't mean right like RIGHT, but more like have I accurately understood what you were trying to say?

You seem to be on the right track here, Sangfoot, but here are a few responses/clarifications that I hope will help:

Originally Posted by Sangfoot

I am not sure I can conceptualize what a "me" in waking or dream life is like that doesn't include a "waking self-awareness" that experiences and is "aware" of it. Perhaps that is the paradox, the non-dual perspective, that I have completely failed to consider? How am I aware of that which I am unaware of? Lucidity, huh, indeed. I am seeing a path to "increase" lucidity that seems way beyond goals like; increase dream recall, sleep more, practice RC etc...

Developing a non-dual perspective, learning to know that it's all you, and that self-awareness is the result of that knowledge and not a separate entity floating around your psyche, is a very difficult process, because it runs so counter to our natural way of seeing. It can take a lifetime to develop (though lucid dreaming can help speed things up), so don't worry too much if you're having trouble conceptualizing it right now. In fact, I wouldn't worry too much about conceptualizing it at all; instead, just open yourself to the notion that in dreams, everything is you -- the scenery, the DC's, the plot, DC "you," the whole universe -- learn to remember that during your dream, and lucidity will not be a problem.

I come back to the question how do I become aware of what I am not aware of? And perhaps that is already being answered by many of the guides and techniques taught to increase lucidity. I am very curious though, what comes to your mind with that question?

I don't think you need to be too concerned with being aware of what you are not aware of; just being fully aware of that which you are already aware should take up most of your time!

Try not to build too much complication into a non-dual perspective; though it is remarkably difficult to consistently achieve and maintain, the concept itself is, in my opinion, pretty simple, especially with regard to dreaming: it's all you. In waking-life, where it obviously isn't all you, things can seem more complicated but, when you are able to become comfortable with the notion that everything in your local reality effects you, just as you have an effect on it, the non-dual perspective still remains pretty simple.

Also, be wary of feeling a need to actually be aware of everything at all times, a la ADA, because all that will do is cloud your day with way too much unnecessary activity and lead you even further from a non-dual perspective, and proper lucidity [You can see more about my opinion about ADA here, if you're curious]. Instead, learn to focus on your overall presence in a moment and... oh hell, I'm starting to sound like that guy from the Matrix... to get what I'm saying here, just (re)read the instruction for the RRC exercise I posted in session 1 of my WILD class; it pretty much covers what I'm suggesting.

Also... do you believe that pursuing lines of thinking like this will help me experience more and better lucid dreams?

Yup!

Originally Posted by Sangfoot

I have been pondering this non-dual idea. It is like a unifying idea bringing together many seemingly separate ideas on emotions, self-hood, identity, reality etc.. It seems significant and I want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly, is there a book or something lol?

Again, try not to over-complicate this; the concept is simple, not complex. A non-dual perspective doesn't unify anything, or bring together "many seemingly separate ideas on emotions, self-hood, identity, reality etc.." Indeed, it isn't even an idea, just a point of view -- a pretty big "just," sure, and a point of view with literally no point, but still "just." All those ideas, emotions, etc., still exist on their own, as does reality and your physical being; a non-dual perspective simply allows you to better understand how they all fit together to make up "You," and define your relationship with, well, everything... and again, this perspective is most useful in dreams where "everything" is your creation, and a reflection of you.

There has been lots written about a non-dual perspective, I'm sure, as the concept goes back many centuries. I can't think of a book that addresses it well off-hand, but I do think it is nicely discussed in The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep, which you might want to read anyway. Otherwise, a quick search of "non-dual perspective," or "rigpa" should yield lots of interesting stuff (hopefully some of it lines up with what I'm saying here!). Also, I think Sivason's DVA Dream Yoga Class delves into this stuff as well.

I want to record them here because it is you Sageous that has sparked them, but it seems like this thread might not be the best place for this type of discussion.

Posting here is fine, though a new thread in the Attaining Lucidity forum might raise the conversation's profile a bit. Be warned, though, that this is not a popular subject here, because it includes no clever techniques that offer instant lucidity, and promises only hard work that could go on for years; those are not hings most folks want to hear about these days!

Here is what I really want to clarify. I really like the idea of lucid dreaming being me gaining an awareness of my presence and interaction in "dream reality", that which is me and always has been "me". Even the idea that there are dream senses that are different than waking body sensations. Dream control becomes not my domination or assertion, but more of an exploration of what is already me, my presence is this "dream reality".

Does this sound right? I guess I don't mean right like RIGHT, but more like have I accurately understood what you were trying to say?

That seems pretty right to me; good luck with it!

Originally Posted by Sageous

I wouldn't worry too much about conceptualizing it at all; instead, just open yourself to the notion that in dreams, everything is you

Originally Posted by Sageous

I don't think you need to be too concerned with being aware of what you are not aware of; just being fully aware of that which you are already aware should take up most of your time!

Haha yes I really appreciate this. Yesterday I really dived into the deep end. This seems like a much better short term goal to improve my dream lucidity than the nebulous ponderings I was in yesterday.

In my original post I remember feeling very confused and frustrated around the idea of "transitioning" into a WILD. I don't feel that frustration anymore because my "perspective", "just my point of view" has changed.

I will look at your session 1 WILD tutorial again and read through that discussion on ADA.

Thank you Sageous for taking the time to respond to me and explain all this to me! I think it will be very helpful!

Hi Sageous
Last night I woke up from a dream, I remained still and tried to remember the last scene of the dream. I couldn't but I could remember some older scenes from the same dream including someone's face. So I started imagining that. I think I could see it after a while it wasn't just an imagination. But I also could here my own voice commenting on it "why would I want to go to her?" and then my mom's voice saying "why not? she is good." And it wasn't weird for me to hear these voices (which indicates maybe I had low awareness at the moment?) and I was also thinking "my awareness is not the same as my waking awareness." then I popped out and immediately tried to imagine a mirror. I think I saw it. But I don't remember completely, anyway soon I woke up fully.
It was my second attempt. I don't know how close I was? What should have I done differently?
[I could DILD before. But I had low dream-control and low awareness in my DILDs. So I decided to shift to WILD and I am new here ]
Thanks for your amazing tutorial

^^ All in all that seemed like a nice DEILD attempt... pretty darn close!

I think the only thing that may have gone wrong here is that your mostly successful DEILD transition lapsed into a non-lucid dream before you could do anything about it. This happens a lot when attempting to DEILD while emerging from a NLD (which I assume is what you were doing).

Though there isn't much you can do about this, one thing you can do is remain positive: I assume that your thinking that "my awareness is not the same as my waking awareness" was an analysis of what was actually going on. Instead of thinking like this, try making a positive observation, like "Hey, I'm still here," and use that positive feeling to encourage your presence in the dream to increase: starting out with a negative thought will only allow the NLD a stronger foothold, thus pushing your waking-life self-awareness further from the dream. Also, since your dream has already restarted, the DEILD is (mostly) complete, try an exercise you might do to amp up your presence after a DILD, like remembering your sleeping body or doing a RC. Another thing you could do after you wake up (or, better, while you are waking up) from this near miss you might stay calm, keep your eyes closed, and try again, because you never know.

So: nice work, good luck on the next try, and welcome to Dreamviews!

Thank you very much,
Your suggestoin and the self-awareness exercises actually helped me to have a very good DILD. I had it a few nights ago. The only problem was that it was long and after it I couldn't remember some parts vividly. I want to remember my LDs as good as my waking memories. I want them to feel real (though they feel real during the LD, because of my blurry memory after waking up they don't feel that real.). So I think I should improve my dream memory? I write down my dreams... What else can I do? For example, for me, remembering my thoughts are easier than the scenes. It's like I may even remember the whole story, but it's not like waking memories...
And last night I had a DEILD, this time after a DILD, so I was LD. I was jumping from a very high building and floating in air, it was a bit frightening so I woke up (or maybe it was a FA, how can I know? those times are always blurry in my mind so I don't know if it was FA or real awakening). I could bring back the image of my falling and pop in to dream but soon (like after a few seconds) I popped out again and this time I woke up (maybe I should have tried again). What can I do to make them long?
I had a WILD attempt too. I was still for half an hour I think. My body was completely relax. My mind was not wandering, it was focused. Images would come and go (like very short dreams). But nothing happened. I haven't found the right time for my WILDs. Is it because of that? I didn't completely understand how I can find the correct time.
Too many questions, sorry

Nice work, Noah9!

That is a lot of questions, but I'll take a shot at answering them, if briefly:

Originally Posted by noah9

Thank you very much,
Your suggestoin and the self-awareness exercises actually helped me to have a very good DILD. I had it a few nights ago. The only problem was that it was long and after it I couldn't remember some parts vividly. I want to remember my LDs as good as my waking memories. I want them to feel real (though they feel real during the LD, because of my blurry memory after waking up they don't feel that real.). So I think I should improve my dream memory? I write down my dreams... What else can I do? For example, for me, remembering my thoughts are easier than the scenes. It's like I may even remember the whole story, but it's not like waking memories...

First, be careful not to expect too much from your memory; for instance, pick a moment -- say, 4:00pm yesterday -- and try to remember it in the same way you wish to remember your LD's... you might be surprised. If you're not, here are a couple of suggestions:

Write your dream down immediately, even if that writing is a couple of notes about highlights of the dream, written in the dark (you can write everything you can remember about the dream later).

After you've done your initial recording, lie back down and take a few minutes to think about what you dreamed, focusing particularly on the imagery (maybe, in your case, using your well-remembered thoughts to reform that imagery while it's still willing to reform). Hopefully the act of immediately writing down the dream will help you more easily grab those moments.

Don't worry too much about the quality of those memories -- yet. As your practice of writing down what you can of your dream immediately and then thinking about it afterward rewires your brain a bit, you should find that your recall will improve.

If you're already doing these things, here is another exercise that might help: At bedtime, take a moment to remember as much as you can, in detail, about what you did all day, starting with bedtime and working back to the moment you awoke in the morning. This can take some time and initially be harder than you'd think but, I've found, if you can develop a routine of doing this every night, you should find your memory improving after a few weeks (unfortunately you must keep up the practice after it starts working, because you brain will want to return to its default setting of discarding most of a day's activities pretty quickly).

Aside from that I got nothin' right now, except maybe to add this tired cliché: keep at it all, and be patient, with experience your memory will improve.

And last night I had a DEILD, this time after a DILD, so I was LD. I was jumping from a very high building and floating in air, it was a bit frightening so I woke up (or maybe it was a FA, how can I know? those times are always blurry in my mind so I don't know if it was FA or real awakening). I could bring back the image of my falling and pop in to dream but soon (like after a few seconds) I popped out again and this time I woke up (maybe I should have tried again). What can I do to make them long?

I'm guessing that you did wake up, but in truth you needn't be concerned, since a DEILD from a FA works just as well as one from truly waking up. Lucidity is lucidity, regardless of its source, right?

The one problem with DEILD (and classic WILD's for that matter) is that they occur very close to the the waking state so, especially after a full sleep cycle, your body might be too far into the wake-up process to avoid quickly waking up... at first, anyway. With practice, your body should finally succumb to your mind's desire and stay asleep a bit longer. Also, if you're not doing so already, be sure to close your curtains to keep morning sunlight out, because light is the enemy of sleep.

And yes, trying again is a very good idea. Chaining DEILDs is a good way to work around the wake-up process. A bunch of short LD's may not be as good as one long LD, but it's certainly better than no LD at all! Also, when you try chaining, always focus on the dream from which you originally woke, rather than the short bit you just had. This seems to help maintain the content more easily.

I had a WILD attempt too. I was still for half an hour I think. My body was completely relax. My mind was not wandering, it was focused. Images would come and go (like very short dreams). But nothing happened. I haven't found the right time for my WILDs. Is it because of that? I didn't completely understand how I can find the correct time.

That does sound like a timing issue to me, though the first few WILD attempts are rarely successful, because it takes a little time to get your mind and body to work together in your quest to get them to run counter to the normal going to sleep process.

Finding your optimal time for WBTB and attempting a WILD is, unfortunately, a fairly personal quest, because we are all different. Be patient, your specific WILD window will show itself eventually. That said, I would suggest as a starting point a minimum of five hours' sleep followed by a WTB of at least 15 minutes and no more than 45 (I sure hope that matches my instruction I listed so many years ago in the timing section!).

All that said, that was an excellent try; keep it up!

Thank you verrryyy much for all your guidance.
You are right, my waking memory is not so vivid as well
Wow, your suggestions are great. I will try them and hopefully come back here with success.

I'm not sure if I managed to WILD or if I just dreamt that I did.

I tried to WILD around 5-6am (after 4-5 hours of sleep) but gave up after an hour and then didn't get back to sleep for another 2 hours. Then, around 8:30, my alarm went off and I kept snoozing it and I actually started going to sleep between alarms. Finally I turned off the alarm. I stayed in bed to go to sleep again, and as I lay there I was vaguely aware I wanted to fall asleep and have an LD, but I can't remember exactly what I was thinking or expecting at the time. At one point I heard a sudden loud buzzing in my ears for a second, wondered if it was what I'd read you could experience in a WILD, then figured I had probably imagined it. I tried to move my finger gently, to check if I was awake in my bed or else unable to move because I'd gone to sleep, but I could feel my finger moving a tiny bit under my blankets. Within (what felt like) about 10 or 15 seconds, I could see an image before me, and I looked at it and willed things in it to move and change (because I recalled reading something about trying to imagine/create a scene to go into), which they did. I waited another few seconds, and then I tried to move into the image, and I could walk and realised I was in the dream. I believed I had just achieved WILD.

But later after waking up and thinking about it, I don't know that I was really awake to start with; I could have dreamt the whole thing, right? I feel as though I didn't lose consciousness at all, but perhaps I did, and then dreamt I was awake, and went to sleep?
Does what I experienced sound like WILD, or just made up in my head?

^^ Yes, that does sound like a successful WILD to me; well sort of successful, I suppose.

I think your confusion might lie in the fact that your attempt occurred before you had a chance to fully gather your waking-life self-awareness. So, though you did indeed cause a WILD, you may have been unable to fully appreciate your presence in the transition, and the dream.

That, in a nutshell, is the reason for doing WBTB's. Next time you awaken and feel that desire to LD, get up. Force yourself to resist the urge to stay in bed and walk around a little bit, if only for a few minutes, just to clear your head enough (but not too much!) to gather enough self-awareness to successfully appreciate your WILD transition and the the LD that follows.

Also, since you already seem pretty good at this, I suggest that you take the DVA WILD class to which this attached; it might help you to hone your skills mores easily.