The Elusive Hypnagogic State

I have difficulty entering the hypnagogic border world between waking and dreaming. So much so, in fact, that I would not have a conception of what a hypnagogic state or image is at all save for learning about it on dreaming websites like this one. As far as my natural sleep progression is concerned, one moment my mind is wandering like a lost hyperactive little child doing its own thing, and the next I am conked out full-on asleep. I'm not bold enough to suggest I don't go through hypnagogery at all, but if and when I do it is something brief, unimpressive and unremembered.

I have satisfying dreams (often enough at least) and remember them well enough. I'm great at being awake and at being asleep, but I seem to suck almightily at floating in between the two states where hypnagogic imagery occurs. I also might have the record on this board for Longest Time Spent Without a Lucid Dream, so in my neverending detective work to end my mammoth dry spell, the link between my subpar hypnagogic experience and my nonexistant lucid life seems suspect.

For those of you more familiar with the mechanics and intricacies of entering and experience the hypnagogic state... how do you do it? I've tried lots of things: just falling asleep doesn't put me near it, quieting my mind and trying to stay half-aware as my body falls asleep doesn't do it, and even hoisting a body part up to fall down when I come too close to sleep doesn't help me find hypnagogic imagery, even though I can float in that state right before my muscles relax (see: FAILD) I just don't get imagery with it. I've also tried various styles of VILDing, but active visualization usually just keeps me wide awake as long as I do it, and it never leads to anything in the long term. I can visualize being in a situation for an hour, and stop, and be just as I was before I did it.

Don't let yourself be impressed by those who have HI, or tutorials which imply that visualization/Imagery are necessary. They are good for people who already have HI, and useless for the others.

I have absolutely no hypnagogic imagery. Techniques like VILD are for me a waste of time, too. And yet I have many LDs.
Even when doing WILD, I only see blackness. Sometimes I have a few Hypnagogic sounds or tactile sensations. Imagery starts only once I have fully entered the LD.

If you want, you could read this visualization tutorial. I'll just say that I tried this for 2 weeks and it did nothing ;)

First thing is, I have to almost always be laying on my back. Otherwise I will fall asleep to fast. Second is, I will try not to think any words at all. I will just lay there and listen for inner sounds. And watch the shapes in the blackness of my closed eye lids. Once I get relaxed enough, I will start to hear words come into my mind all on there own. I will actualy be hearing them. Sometimes just one word at first, then whole sentences. Sometimes I will hear two people haveing a conversation. sometimes I will just hear really strange sounds, or music. Then I just sit and listen for a while, and I will be able to follow the sounds into a dream scene. Or just flashes of scenes.

I never really consider these Lucid dreams. Just a fun way to get to sleep.
I also notice, my recall seems to be better when I go to sleep this way.

They might be very faint. I rarely have really bright vibrant colours, they are usually dull and slow moving, like a plasma screen-saver. I have a theory about hypnogogic imagery: throughout the day you eyes are constantly adjusting to colours (if you stare at something red for a while, you get a blue after image,) and the eyes are simply sorting themselves out and re-calibrating, creating images in order to do this. This would explain why it only seems to happen while going to bed and going deep, the brain is sure that you aren't going to open your eyes and screw up its re-calibration. Maybe some people have another way of doing this and never see the HI. Just a theory.

I get this aswel. I just hear random words coming into my mind.

Yes I was talking with some people this week and they said that they were not able to create images in their head at will which struck me as odd because I can do it with ease like it's something natural for me. I think that HI plays a part in this as if you can't create images in your head or scenes like replaying a bit in a movie that you saw etc. Than HI becomes very hard.

When I was younger and did not know anything about lucid dreaming, my way of getting to sleep was just by picturing things i my mind. Like a sucession of images. It's weird because when I was younger I would sometimes -especially in nightmares- realize that I was in a dream and wake myself up. It was a natural thing for me I found it really easy to wake up from dreams. There would be a technique to it like blinking or something similar. I never have that ability anymore though. I never realise im in a dream.

Ive experienced this several times, but it's never followed through into a dream

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Originally Posted by Caradon

Once I get relaxed enough, I will start to hear words come into my mind all on there own.

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That is exactly the way to describe it!! haha, ive been trying to word it unsuccesfully, but you hit it dead on. Its so strange how things just come on thier own.

What i've tried and has gotten me is also just laying there on my back and thinking of nothing, nothing at all, and if anything comes to my mind even slightly like, "oh its been been a while since i thought of anything" or, "my breathing is loud" i immediatley just say to myself, "its okay" and go on trying to think of nothing. Last night I entered into a sleep paralisis and and LD through this teqnique.

Keep trying dont lose hope! Read people's dream journals to get you inspired. I know that helped me.

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Originally Posted by Dewitback

That is exactly the way to describe it!! haha, ive been trying to word it unsuccesfully, but you hit it dead on. Its so strange how things just come on thier own.

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Yeah It's so fascinating isn't it. Last night I heard somebody crumpling up a piece of paper off to my right. before seeing an image of an animal head on a wall, that started talking!

All HI for me is like a meter. It just lets me know it's almost go time when I'm trying a WILD. In fact when I WILD, I don't picture the scene and what I'm doing and all of that stuff other people do. I just alternate focusing on keeping my mind alert enought to know what phases are going on, and my body relaxed so I'm not tense. Every time I enter the dream I'm in my room. Nothing fancy...no crap i was picturing in my head or anything. I'll get out of bed, and it's go time. Kinda like a FA, but I truly know I'm in the dream.

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Originally Posted by Caradon

Yeah It's so fascinating isn't it. Last night I heard somebody crumpling up a piece of paper off to my right. before seeing an image of an animal head on a wall, that started talking!

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I know exactly what you mean! I get sounds more than anything, but I find it really interesting when I'm not aware of the sound that is going on, but as soon as I become aware of it it disappears!

Slowly it gets to the point where I can be aware of the sounds and continue listening at the same time.

A few nights ago I was trying to wild. I had major ear ringing, but more of a strong continuous bell like sound than the faint mosquito sound. After a while of listening to that... BAM... I was falling slowly down into my mattress. I was conscious that I was listening to a computer playing an Alice in Wonderland cd thing and that I had my eyes closed on my bed . I did a throat blocking rc and sure enough I was dreaming! I got up slowly but unfortunately woke up.

That was my second successful (not totally successful I know) wild attempt and I believe it is because I have discovered that waiting/trying to see pictures doesn't really work for me. Even things like VILD don't. I just have to listen for the sounds :)

(Oh and in dreams I have great vividness and clarity. So even though in my wild attempts I'm not a visual person this doesn't seem to affect the dream once I'm in it)

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Originally Posted by 2Fruits

That was my second successful (not totally successful I know) wild attempt and I believe it is because I have discovered that waiting/trying to see pictures doesn't really work for me. Even things like VILD don't. I just have to listen for the sounds :)

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Yeah, I always focus on listening to the sounds first. Now and then I get images first, but most of the time it's the sounds. Then they will lead into images. The other night for the first time, I was actually able to talk to a voice that I could hear. It was a very strange experience. (I was talking mentally of course) I don't think I have gone quite crazy yet. Well, at least I hope not.:)

http://arginine.spc.org/vaughan/Vaug...gogicState.pdf
The article above I found helpful and interesting.

I've been noticing something after a while of experimenting with HI and WILD... I seem to be able to physically sleep, yet I will be fully aware and conscious. I've been lying down on a couch totally still, feeling like I was trying to sleep, yet those around me would swear I actually was sleeping. They say they would try to rouse me delicately, and I wouldn't wake; they would also declare I was lightly snoring! I was, for all intensive purposes, asleep, yet I was "conscious". So, wouldn't I be dreaming at that point?

The ony explanation I've been able to come to, is that I've been entering deep, Stage-4 Delta sleep very quickly, and that most of my sleep is comprised of it. This makes sense, as it accounts for my lack of HI, and for the general lack of visual quality in my dreams. It also accounts for my time spent attempting WILD, only to have no HI or dreams come. I'll lay there and be relaxed, even asleep. However, no visual or auditory HI comes, yet I'll sometimes experience tactile HI. (vibrations, etc...) No imagery or dreams seem to occur. When I do dream later in the night, it's not with Rapid Eye Movement, and thus involves little "eyesight". Remember, when one looks a direction in a dream, their physical eyes move that direction as well, as evidence of LeBarge's REM experiments to test lucidity.

So, I really don't think that "not having" HI is the problem... I think it's a general inability to enter REM easily, the creator of HI. I've met a lot of people with this problem, and these are generally the ones that state that they never dream and they've never had a lucid. Of course, every once in a while they actually will have REM, and this is where their few vivid dreams take place. This describes myself perfectly. It isjust a theory however. If I am correct, I have very little knowledge on how to correct it. I've looked online on how to extend REM, but most of the information is directed at shortening REM, as it seems to cure depression in many. What I do know is this:

I) REM is healthy sleep that comes from not being too tired.
II) NREM, deep sleep, usually takes REM's place if exhausted or stressed.
III) REM happens later in the night for most.
IV) REM is subject to the rebound effect.
V) One can dream in both NREM and REM.
VI) REM can be trained to occur almost exclusively with polyphasic sleep.

Everybody's body is different. I think those that experience intense HI are those that enter REM right after falling asleep. So, if you want to have HI, I suppose one must figure out a way to enter REM quicker.

I'm defintely about the HI's for some reason. I guess it has just been the way that works for me; although sound first may not apply due to the music I listen to before I sleep. I usually play some ambient while drifting off so the visuals are the first thing I notice. I hear thoughts and voices etc., it's just not in my main focus. I try to think mine as just like remembering a memory (something that has taken place in my life) in my mind. Sometimes I'll create a scene in my head and I'm walking and looking down at me feet as I walk. When I look up I've entered the dream and become fully immersed in my dream world.

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Originally Posted by Caradon

Once I get relaxed enough, I will start to hear words come into my mind all on there own. I will actualy be hearing them. Sometimes just one word at first, then whole sentences. Sometimes I will hear two people haveing a conversation. sometimes I will just hear really strange sounds, or music. Then I just sit and listen for a while, and I will be able to follow the sounds into a dream scene. Or just flashes of scenes

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you see, i get very frequent hypnagogic hallucinations.

i find that even though the most common experience is to hear sounds, this has never happened to me.

i feel that because i am a light sleeper, i am always drifting in and out of sleep, and have recently within the past month been able to control this a lot better.

i have become a member of this forum just so i could get views on these type of things from other users....

now i find that occasionally when i open my eyes as i am drifting into a sleep, i will see vivid unrelated images across my ceiling, on my bed and on my wall.

the most memorable visions i have recently had are as follows:

watching my phone actually slide across my bed

seeing a figure sitting in a chair in the corner of the room

a large industrial power switch on my wall :?

the cartoon/game character Mario driving past my ceiling on a tricycle

my wall forming into blue diamonds and then into a swirling grey carpet.


i am very interested in what other people have experienced visually - so please do not hesitate to share your visions with me so i know i am not mental!!!

i am a 17 year old male and have not suffered from any other sleep related disorders in the past...

thanks

I get a lot of visuals as well. Sometimes I get the visuals before the sounds.
The last couple of weeks, I have been getting more visuals than sounds.
It just kind of depends on the way I focus my mind, as I am falling asleep.
I'm always really fascinated by the sounds I hear, so normally I try to focus on hearing
them first.

welcome to the forum!

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Originally Posted by Spamtek

I have difficulty entering the hypnagogic border world between waking and dreaming. So much so, in fact, that I would not have a conception of what a hypnagogic state or image is at all save for learning about it on dreaming websites like this one. As far as my natural sleep progression is concerned, one moment my mind is wandering like a lost hyperactive little child doing its own thing, and the next I am conked out full-on asleep. I'm not bold enough to suggest I don't go through hypnagogery at all, but if and when I do it is something brief, unimpressive and unremembered.

I have satisfying dreams (often enough at least) and remember them well enough. I'm great at being awake and at being asleep, but I seem to suck almightily at floating in between the two states where hypnagogic imagery occurs. I also might have the record on this board for Longest Time Spent Without a Lucid Dream, so in my neverending detective work to end my mammoth dry spell, the link between my subpar hypnagogic experience and my nonexistant lucid life seems suspect.

For those of you more familiar with the mechanics and intricacies of entering and experience the hypnagogic state... how do you do it? I've tried lots of things: just falling asleep doesn't put me near it, quieting my mind and trying to stay half-aware as my body falls asleep doesn't do it, and even hoisting a body part up to fall down when I come too close to sleep doesn't help me find hypnagogic imagery, even though I can float in that state right before my muscles relax (see: FAILD) I just don't get imagery with it. I've also tried various styles of VILDing, but active visualization usually just keeps me wide awake as long as I do it, and it never leads to anything in the long term. I can visualize being in a situation for an hour, and stop, and be just as I was before I did it.

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My sincere advice to you:
1) Don't try to do it. Your very desire to get into that state is what obstructs you
2) Meditate until Concentrate is strong enough. And entering this state should come naturally.

I am not Enlightened, but this is what I think through my own experience, as I have entered that in-between state quite often.

Cheers :)

has anybody been scared by a hypnogogic experience?

at the time i cant move any part of my body without real effort - rolling over is mainly all i do when i want it to end.

but i recently had one a few days ago in which my blinds came towards me as though there was something behind them

i felt like they were going to swallow me or something and i couldnt move and it was the first time i got scared by a hallucination, as all the other times i have been too tired to think about it.:|

I usually don't get HI either, save for a few light patterns. (Though once I did see a yellow butterfly flying through my eyes.) I do hear voices every now and then, but they just wake me up a bit more. Also, every time I start to slip into SP, my heart starts racing like crazy and it always snaps me out of it.

I don't really know how to fix this, but my guess is that you have to let it happen naturally.

I've had a few WILD's and have still never had any HI. I actually do fall asleep for a very short amount of time between asleep and LDing, but I fall straight into an LD, instead of going from normal dream to LD.

Don't expect any HI, it's not necessary for all. Try watching the funny patterns behind your eyelids, it's a good way to fall asleep and keep your concentration there.

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Originally Posted by Glorfindel_III

Try watching the funny patterns behind your eyelids, it's a good way to fall asleep and keep your concentration there.

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Omg, this is just going to be so funny! Ahahaha! Omg! Damn! Okay, here it comes:
Those funny patterns behind your eyelids........... are HI!!!!! :P

Hey there,

I think he means the patterns of dark and light when you close your eyes, which are definately not hypnagogic imagery (in fact if I remember correctly they have to do with the afterburn of light on your retinal sensors, or something to that effect :)). Not the same as hypnagogic images at all though.

-Redrivertears-

Do what ever you do before bed.. (Like reading a book, having a cigarett, etcetera.)
Then, ...

Once melatonin has flooded your brain, and all serotonin is converted, and the light no longer stimulate the retina, and you feel really sleepy:

Go to bed, always clean your teeths first if you got that habit. ;)

Then close you eyes. Find a comfortable position. Relax.. I recommend Deep breathing, so the body/blood is saturated with oxygen to some extent.

Feel your body..

Now.. 'It is' dark in the room. All you can see is the back of your eye lids? (Then you would have done somewhat what I do.) A blur? (If not describe what you see, or how you do not see?)

BTW: I listen to music, if that might be relevant.

As I let the thoughts wander, the images might appear out of the blur.. Some blury, some clear..

Some times, I see glimpses, like a old woman walking down a stair.

Some times, I see friends, in a friends room. People looking like they are aware that I am "waking up"/'falling asleep'. I am maybe even in the same position as I "had" in bed. Being "frosen" in the air above the floor, or maybe standing in some veird positin on the floor, Feeling the body in bed, loosing sense of it. Slowly "regaining" sense of my "dream body" .. In the given "dreamscape" ..

Some times, I sit in a sofa, sourounded by "old dear" freinds. (I do that a lot.)
On a small "fictional" planet. (There are many many many (!) planets like that, almost same size, but differently "themed", yet all with a "familiar" lay out. Kind of like if you built a house of the native material, many different places on earth, only using basically the same blueprint.)

Anyways. As I lie in bed, I think to my self: for eksample "Can you hear what I am saying?"
Where the freinds reply, not by words, but by waving their hands, or if I see clearly e.g. noding their heads.. (Like the thought I do not utter in bed, are uttered elsewhere..)

The more I loose sense of my "primary body", the more I can do, and the less appearing as "images" it becomes..

I babbel now, but if it is not interesting poeople can stop reading, and if not; reply to it in Personal-Message ...

I got the same bed as I got here, in many other "regular dreamscapes".. (Like the planets.)
So I can lie down and all, and then know/feel my body asleep in all the beds, all over where ever 'all of this' is..
Then chose to wake up in the scenario of the first "images" that appear.
I am in training, and these places always seem to be places of learning.. Like the scapes, are being integrated.. With "the most regular one"..

bla bla vla..