'NEW' Technique Respawned for 2015!

Ok so a dramatic headline but one which I hope will lead to lots of great ideas for this 'new' idea that I am to experiment to oblivion with.

I am 45 years old and started my quest for lucid dreams in March and have so far had about 25 lucid dreams albeit most low quality / under 30 seconds, i have tried all the methods, obsessed over FILD, WILD, DILD SSILD and all manner of 'ILDs.

I guess I have had the most success with SSILD but something was bugging me all along, through all the 1000's of posts I have read there was something that didn't quite 'fit' with me ... and that was the under promotion of DIELD

Now from what I understand, DEILD when executed properly is a hugely successfully technique with 99% success being quoted by various sources. I even read Michael Radugas book 'The Phase' which is all based on DEILD (he calls it 'indirect techniques') and this led me to believe that DEILD is not only the easiest (under correct conditions) but also the most important!

Important ... why? Well there nothing more frustrating that getting lucid and then having the dream fade / collapse and then having to wait days or weeks for the next one. This is too frustrating. If we were to master DEILD then this problem would be largely eradicated as we could simply 'chain' into the next lucid dream.

So why am i regurgitating what most people already know? Well, i had an experience which led to an idea which according to posts on DV was largely unobtainable due to lack of technology prior 2015 / 2014

As technology moves on more opportunities become available

The experience. A few weeks ago i was asleep on my back (dreaming away non lucid) i must have been snoring because my wife gently tapped me on the chest. i woke very very briefly not moving, keeping eyes closed and immediately tried to sleep again all within 5 seconds. On trying to sleep again, i saw an amazing array of grey swiring shapes in my vision (i rarely get this level of Hypnogogia) but this was magnificent and I knew that i was in the throws of successfully completing a DEILD, I lay still and just as i was about to transition my wife woke me again .. grrr

Anyway, i now understood the power of DEILD but more importantly the ease of which it can be executed if disturbed during a dream and how easy it can be so i spend days reading every single DEILD post on here. I saw the same ideas and opinions expressed again and again and to summarize there were 2 main principles that surfaced

1) Under proper conditions DEILD is the easiest way to enter a lucid dreams
2) There are 3 ways to begin a DEILD as follows

a) You either are already in a lucid dream and prepare as the dream fades. I will not be exploring this at all as im only concerned with getting lucid from a non lucid dream

b) You awake from a normal dream and very very quicklu regain some awareness and keeping still, eyes closed re enter the dream or...

c) You momentarily awake or are disturbed DURING a dream

so that last scenario is what peaked my interest, if only i could wake up IN a dream for a FRACTION of a second then i could just DEILD straight back in! wonderful .. but a problem. How would I do that exactly?

Well i researched and finally found an ideal app for iphone & andriod. Its an amazing alarm that can be set to play any sound, any voice recording but better than that, it can be set to go off at a certain time, sound the alarm for 3 seconds then auto switch off and then replay again in 15 mins time! I then bought ( for £10) an 'ear phone' which is a tiny headphone that sits right in the ear (bluetooth) so its comfy and no wires and started testing it. I went to bed at 11pm, set the alarm to first go off at 5pm for 3 seconds, automatically switch off then go off every 15 mins after that. I recorded my voice for the alarm which says 'keep still, eyes closed, re-enter dream' and set a low volume.

This resulted in me waking up 7 or 8 times during rem and at least 5 of those times was during a dream giving idea conditions for a DEILD, with practise it will become habit to know exactly what to do on these awakenings.

Im not going to post any results until I have tried this for a whilst. The beauty of this technique is that it gives me up to 8 chances each night to DEILD and i only need to get lucid in 1 of those

The reason for this post is that its only really this year and last that these amazing alarm apps are available and highly accessible to everyone now.

I have only found 1 other tutorial where a member actually interrupts their dream to DEILD (He calls it CANWILD and it is almost identical to what I am trying to do but I think he only attempt once per night, however he does claim to have a lucid dream every time he trys) . I know there are 100s of posts where people learn to awaken after a dream but this is no where near as powerful as waking DURING a dream

I would love any feedback from people that already interrupt their dreams to DEILD so that I can perfect the technique

Once I have got this technique working well to 1 lucid dream per night then I will have a way to help all other newbies to get lucid

I hope we can really 'big up' the importance and power of a dream interrupted DEILD

Ezzo

I find this very interesting and may even try it myself. What is the app called specifically?

I have attempted this in the past, but only when I was... on a down time with lding, I might start trying this out again since I am on fire with lding right now. Last time I set silent alarms throughout the night and had my phone in my hand. I only did it last time because I wanted to try for deild since I was being lazy. Now I am just pumped up. Will report back in a couple of weeks if it makes a change. Remember I ld most every night, so results look very eschewed if you don't look at it right. Haha

I use my Alarm DEILD all the time. The app sounds cool, and I should get one like that. I just set a snooze on my phone and have it in my hand so I d not need to move. Works great. I sometimes hit 5 or more LDs in a morning this way.

That app does sound cool indeed - which one is it again? I am presently also working with my self to remind me to lie still watch and enter the next dream - I have done it a couple of times now and it is awesome!!!

Sivason - ur snooze method sounds great and works a treat - could you share more details on this step by step + mindset etc too :happyme:

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Originally Posted by sivason

I use my Alarm DEILD all the time. The app sounds cool, and I should get one like that. I just set a snooze on my phone and have it in my hand so I d not need to move. Works great. I sometimes hit 5 or more LDs in a morning this way.

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Hi Sivason, thanks for posting. I did have a sneaky motive behind PM'ing you and hope you dont mind ;-) When I saw your earlier post which said that you use this DIELD alarm technique I knew you would have a lot of information that could help others, much more so than me as I have only been trying this for a few days with only a DILD to show for it. I have a few questions which I feel all other beginners may start to ask and we would very much appreciate and respectfully ask if you could shine some light on the following questions so that we can all fine tune this technique to our own findings.

1) The app i have can play any sound or music of my choice including voice recordings, so i am spoilt for choice. What would you recommend as an alert and a time length. I have put some examples below that I have been playing about with.

a) My own voice recording saying 'keep still, eyes closed, reenter dream' for 3 seconds
b) Some relaxing music (leona lewis) that fades in and fades out over 5 seconds
c) a general non specific standard noise alarm (beeping) for 3 seconds

Also, I set my alarm for every 15 mins after 7 hours of sleep. What has been happening is that every time the alarm goes off i feel that i was already awake when it went off but i usually remember a dream, maybe its waking me up immediately and it just feels like I was already awake?

and finally :-/ ... would it be wise to try different entry techniques such as FILD or Michael Radugas indirect techniques alongside 'traditional dield' to see what works best over time when using CANWILD?

Sorry to ask so much, i just feel that this is the direction i want to go in from now on as im able to use CANWILD every night and it seems the most logical. Thanks for all your help

Also the app is an alarm clock app for my iphone called alarmclockbud www.alarmclockbud.com

Ezzo

No problem, I would not use a traditional beeping alarm as it wakes you suddenly. I like something loud enugh and intense enough that I will not sleep through it. On i-phone some of the sounds are gentle rising and falling sounds sort of like a harp. Relaxing music would work if it is intense enough that it wakes you at least 50%. The thing with your voice seems like a cool idea, but pair it with a sound that will wake you.

I think you do not need to over complicate the process. Simply wake but do not move, and start repeating in your head, "I am dreaming" while relaxing the mind and not focusing. Stay mentally fluid and not anticipating or seeking images. Just relax and repeat the phrase and drift back into dreaming.

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Originally Posted by sivason

No problem, I would not use a traditional beeping alarm as it wakes you suddenly. I like something loud enugh and intense enough that I will not sleep through it. On i-phone some of the sounds are gentle rising and falling sounds sort of like a harp. Relaxing music would work if it is intense enough that it wakes you at least 50%. The thing with your voice seems like a cool idea, but pair it with a sound that will wake you.

I think you do not need to over complicate the process. Simply wake but do not move, and start repeating in your head, "I am dreaming" while relaxing the mind and not focusing. Stay mentally fluid and not anticipating or seeking images. Just relax and repeat the phrase and drift back into dreaming.

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Thankyou Sivason, i really appreciate your input. The last 3 nights I have been attempting this at 15 min intervals after about 5 hours sleep. I use music which wakes me up immediately, in fact when the alarm goes off its as though i was already awake. I am able to awake without moving but i do not seem to have any dream residue even though Im 6 hours into sleep.

Maybe I do need an alarm that fades in more gently to 'rouse' me from sleep rather that shock me awake.

I have so far had about 12-15 attempts at this (4 nights with 4-5 alarms) but have yet to transition. I have had a few WILDS in the past so I know how too remain still and meditate my way in but nothing so far, i simply try the deild for about 2 mins then quit.

Is this something that maybe takes time to work or do you think im simply not waking from a dream? I guess if the alarm is waking me in NREM then its not going to happen, maybe in should start the alarms about 7 hours into sleep instead?

Many thanks
Ezzo

Nice to see DEILD getting some much-needed attention.

Good luck with it, Ezzolucid!

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Nice to see DEILD getting some much-needed attention.

Good luck with it, Ezzolucid!

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Thanks Sageous, i feel chuffed that both you and Sivason are commenting on my thread :-) Yes for me I dont understand why DEILD by way of interupted REM is not the main 'technique' used. Most people say its the easiest and allows for dream chaining and to me seems the most logical. Ive only been doing this for 5 days but each time my alarm wakens me i do not have any dream residue to build my dield attempt on. Im not sure if im waking up in Nrem or from a dream. Its odd - each time i hear the alarm its as though i was already awake but this cannot be the case, I will however simply plough on until i master this however long it takes.

Hi Sageous - could you share some of your own treasures of experience concerning Deilding for us to mull over?

With gratitude :cheers:

Oh yes :) thanks ezzolucid for the cool thead!

^^ Although the experiences of my DEILD transitions are more mundane than they are treasures, and they definitely don't include the use of alarms*, I'll share what I can.

DEILD is probably the transition I have taken (back) to LD's most often, especially if you include multiple-LD DEILD chains, but the transition for me is very simple: I realize I am waking up, I hold onto/remember the dream from which I am exiting as firmly as possible, and basically wait a moment for my body to briefly awaken and return to sleep (usually just a few seconds), then I rejoin the dream or, more likely, head off for a new adventure.

That's it; no more, no less. At this point, I really don't give my my DEILD's a thought as I work through them these days; they seem to work better that way anyway.

Like I said, pretty mundane. But maybe mundane is the way to go with DEILD: just stay calm, notice that you are waking up, and just as calmly let the transition from sleep to wake to sleep and finally back to your dream just happen without giving it a thought.

Though I am usually doing all this when already lucid, I've found this "technique" works just as well when waking from NLD's, because there is a moment just before waking when I realize I am emerging from a dream and I can find some time to hold off on fully awakening and drift back into another dream, lucid... I have also DEILD'd after opening my eyes many times (I've even been able to take a moment to, say, visit the bathroom or grab a drink of water before returning to the dream), but it would probably be best to get the hang of the process with eyes closed and body still before going there.

I talk a bit more about DEILD in a session dedicated to it in my DVA WILD class, if you're curious; I'm probably a bit more clear there as well.

See? Pretty mundane. But you asked! :sageous:



* Since this thread is about using an alarm to waken you from a NLD, I thought I should mention that I do not use an alarm, ever, for DEILD, and generally don't recommend doing so; they simply wake you up too much because they usually must be fairly, um, alarming, to draw you out of a dream.

That said, though, the things talked about here are most intriguing: If you can find a very gentle alarm coupled with the app described above, an alarm just might work. The only problem is with timing, of course: getting the alarm to go off at the most opportune moment during your dream might be difficult... unless someone throws in a REM detector, I guess!

Hi Sageous and thankyou for your valuable comments. Most of us simple dont recognize when we are waking from a non lucid dream and thats why an alarm is used. Maybe it takes much practise and conditioning to reach a stage where one can actually realize that they are waking from a non lucid dream.

With the app i have we can basically programme it very flexibly. Last night I set mine to go off after 7 hours of sleep and then to auto shut off after 10 seconds and then auto repeat every 15 min, the alarm was my own recorded voice telling me 'keep still, eyes closed, reenter dream' - all without me ever needing to touch the phone.

Last night the alarm went off during a vivid dream, it woke me within the first millisecond of the recording and I immediately kept still and started the deild process. Unfortunately after a few minutes nothing happened, i just felt too awake so i lay there for another 20 mins trying to get back to sleep

My dield attempt was my laying there with the mantra 'i am dreaming' whilst trying to drift back to sleep but i stayed awake grrrrr

Can anyone shed some light on why it didnt work? Maybe the alarm was too long at 10 seconds, i dont know? I was certainly in rem when it woke me though.

Im thinking that the key is with the alarm that is used. I am trying various things. I realize that 10 seconds is too long as if im awoken within the first second of the alarm then a 2-3 second alarm would be sufficient. Maybe some soft music that fades in and out may work, i guess its all about experimenting until i get the perfect alarm call for a succesful dield.

Thanks guys
Ezzo

^^ I would agree that your alarm woke you up too much, and mixed in perhaps was your excitement about doing the DEILD,

Outside stimuli -- even your own voice -- have a tendency to activate your body's reticular system, and once activated you are likely going to be fully woken up. This response is instinctual (and still very valuable, given that even the slightest noise can indicate real threats) and very difficult to fight... which is why I don't recommend using alarms for WILD or DEILD (sorry, just came out!).

I would say that the way through this is to do what you are doing (i.e., less alarm time), but here are a few more thoughts:

You might have someone else -- perhaps someone you trust deeply -- make the recording. Sometimes your own voice can be quite strange, especially in the middle of the night, and you might be reacting too strongly to it.

If you're not already doing this, you might set an intention at bedtime and during natural awakenings during the night, that includes, say, an affirmation that you will hear the specific phrase the alarm will use, welcome it, and calmly respond to it by holding onto your dream. It could be that the alarm isn't just waking you up, but causing a bit of excitement because you are thinking something like "Oh yeah, it's time to do the DEILD!" rather than calmly acknowledging the sound and then moving right into the DEILD without giving the moment much thought (that sounded much better in my head; I hope it made some sense!).

Also, a full wake-up from a DEILD attempt doesn't need to be a failure; you could always switch to a WILD attempt, given that you are in the midst of a WBTB, the middle of REM, and very much in the mood to LD. That's off-topic, I know, but in my opinion still a valid suggestion.

Yes thanks Sageous - you mention about the anticipation or excitement that can be a bit too much some times - did you have that at first and if so how long did it take to really ease into the Deild's as you do now with such naturalness?

Yes... reading through your class again feels great - really appreciate your being here :). I love the mundane!

^^ Sure, I was excited -- exhilarated, even -- to the point of distraction early on. I can't specifically remember how long it took the initial rush to wane, but I don't think it was very long; probably a year or two. Oh; is that a long time? ;)

This wasn't for DEILD's though, but for the DILDs and straight WILDs I was doing earlier on; DEILD's came along much later, after I had already gotten used to the moment of lucidity.

Regarding that naturalness you mention: I must point out that I was doing DEILDs (and WILDs, and DILDs) many years before the acronyms and assorted techniques were invented, so it never occurred to me to do a DEILD any other way than the one I described above. DEILDs were simply the transition that occurred at the moment I was waking from a dream and really wanted to return to it. Since I wasn't encumbered by "official" rules or techniques for achieving a DEILD, I tended to simply do what needed to be done without concern for doing it right. The most important thing to me at the time (and now) was the dream, and reaching it while remaining self-aware. I didn't care about whether my eyes were open or closed, or how still I was, or what I was supposed to be thinking about, because those requirements did not exist yet. I will always see that as an advantage, BTW, because it allowed me to focus my self-aware attention on the dream from the get-go, without having to deal with all the techniques.

But none of this has to do with the topic, right?

Hi again. I will chime in a little. What do me and Sageous mean when we say things like do not focus, do not think about it, and so on? How can that be? You want to cultivate a mental state where you are aware of being there (alive/present) but avoid directly stimulating the waking mind more than the lightest touch. To much mental activity promotes waking. There is a fine line where you can be aware but not really thinking in the normal sense. Most people probably experience this for moments as they fall asleep, we have just learned more about how top use that state or promote that delicate state. So avoid any kind of internal monologue outside of the simple mantra and even then do not focus much on that. It takes practice. you are looking to be aware but with minimal thought activity.

Also, I think 7 hours sleep is perfect for me. I do have extreme success with alarms, but have about 30 years experience. The alarm must not jar you awake, so find one that brings you to consciousness with out fully waking you.

I recommend simply practicing being able to fall asleep quickly. Practice relaxing your body and mind. Try your same methods for a few nights with no mantra and no goal of dreaming. Shoot just for being able to wake and fall swiftly into sleep multiple times in a row. I sometimes do 8 cycles of this alarm/snooze DIELD. It is a weird sleep habit that must be practiced.

Good luck!

HI, looks like this thread is gaining a lot of interest :-) Last night after 4 hours into sleep i had a long vivid dream, i then woke up naturally and immediately (almost instinctively) knew to DIELD, I didn't move, kept eyes closed and simply held onto awareness (I had a mantra 'I'm dreaming') which I repeated once or twice. Within about 10 seconds I went direct into a wave of powerful vibrations and felt like I was transitioning but they then stopped and I was awake again. I kept my calm so maybe it was simply the end of my REM. but it seemed real close!

Sageous, you amplify a really important point which is that you was unhindered by 'rules' and the 'right' or 'wrong' way to execute a technique. Humans go wrong in many areas of their lifes due to this 'rule' impositioning. I used to play an excellent poker game for years, i then read a bunch of books, followed their 'rules' and started losing. I then went back to how I used to play before I read the experts books on poker and started winning again; the same is true for lucid dreaming.

An example. In ALL of the DEILD guides i have read, they ALL say to visualize the dream that has just been exited ( or a previous dream or simply visualize a dream scenario) This 'rule' is 'needed' to dield successfully. I have had 3 traditional WILDS during naps in the past, in fact my first ever 3 attempts at lucid dreaming were WILDS and they were ALL successful 3 days in a row!!! That was in March of this year, I then discovered DreamViews and started to expand my knowledge of the 'correct' way to WILD, many spoke of visualization so I tried this and couldn't WILD any more. I then went back to my original WILD technique (mind clear with simple mantra) and was successful again

The near-DIELD from last night, again, i ignored all the 'correct' last dream visualization and simply stared at closed eyelids with a mantra and almost transitioned. The point is that 'official rules' do sometimes hinder greatly.

This is why (Sageous) that even your 'off topic' comments can lead to expanding knowledge of the original subject matter so please 'stray off topic' at will :-)

So this is my take on alarms

I believe that with practise waking with alarms and then succesfully DIELDing the brain will learn to awaken natually and DIELD without the need for alarms. Think of the alarm as stabalizers on a bike for want of a better analogy.

Whilst using the alarm to interupt REM sleep i will contuniously work on trying to awaken from each dream naturally keeping still with eyes closed and down the line can fade out the alarm once the former becomes the norm

I really believe in DIELD not only for its ease and high success rate but also because of the whole dream chaining aspect. I also beleive that anyone can become an expert at it given practise and consistency

Ezzo

Great thread, very interesting read, well done!

I will be experimenting with this, but I'm not an expert, only had maybe a dozen LDs, most of them very short. Will try and keep you guys posted.

I personally find the "official" DEILD (visualization) pretty difficult. I might try it out the way Ezzo does (mantra), or FILD or Raduga initial separation thingy.

Just one thing, Raduga says to only try and do his DEILD technique 2-3 days a week. Is this one of those "rules" you were talking about? Or does he have a point that we should consider in DEILDing?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by warlockfire1

Great thread, very interesting read, well done!

I will be experimenting with this, but I'm not an expert, only had maybe a dozen LDs, most of them very short. Will try and keep you guys posted.

I personally find the "official" DEILD (visualization) pretty difficult. I might try it out the way Ezzo does (mantra), or FILD or Raduga initial separation thingy.

Just one thing, Raduga says to only try and do his DEILD technique 2-3 days a week. Is this one of those "rules" you were talking about? Or does he have a point that we should consider in DEILDing?

Thanks.

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Hi, i think that quote is rubbish! Why would doing something less give better results? I have read the book and its a fantastic insight into DIELD but I dont agree with only doing it a few nights per week. As long as we are not sleep deprived then I think we should practise multiple times per night. The more we practise, the better we get and the more of a habit is created.

You see, if we wake up straight away after a dream and keep still then we are in a perfect mind set to DEILD. But we are then told that we should either make movements with our fingers (FILD) as thats the best way or visualize (VILD) as thats the best way or run through indirect cycles (Michael Raduga) as thats the best way or simply relax with a mantra (As Sageous as millions of others do)

So there are many options available and all these techniques simply confuse what should be really simple.

Ive read 'The Phase' and its a great book and 1000's have learnt DIELD using his methods and good luck to them. For me i simply focus of falling right back to sleep but i recite a mantra (stay aware or 'im dreaming) just to keep the conscious mind functioning. FILD methos is exactly the same but uses movement which is similar to Radugas 'hand wiggling' . Also in Radugas cycles is trying to find visuals behind closed eyes which is similar to 'traditional DIELD.

It seems that every method of DIELDing is interconnected

The theory is simple - It dosnt matter what you do as long as you retain a pearl of awareness as you drop back to sleep

I guess that if we get into the correct driving seat for a DIELD then any vehicle will get us there

The one clear thread through ALL DIELD tutorials though is that it is considered the easiest technique and once mastered allows for lucid dreams every night, and the with ability to dream chain throughout

I also found this post on another thread by KingYoshi which really pinpoints exactly what I am trying to do

Using an External Device
Basically, using some sort of alarm to wake yourself up. The key to this is to recognize the alarm sounds as quickly as possible. As soon as you recognize the sound, hopefully before you are fully awake, go right into the DEILD process. If you catch the sound while you are in the dream or waking from the dream, just lay, down, close your eyes, and relax. Basically, use the DEILD Chain process. If you woke up, just use the "Waking from a normal dream" process. You want to use an alarm that doesn't last too long and shuts off automatically. You also don't want to use an alarm that is going to jar you awake. You want it to gradually wake you up. The best alarm would be one that starts off quiet, keeps a consistent sound, and gradually becomes louder and louder. The consistent sound can help you recognize the alarm, especially after several attempts. You will slowly learn to recognize the alarm sooner and sooner. Even to the point that you recognize it while still in the dream. The gradual increase in volume can help ease you awake, so it doesn't startle you awake and hurt your chances.

If you start the DEILD process and the alarm hasn't gone off yet, don't worry. Just pretend it is one of the WILD hallucinations and don't even pay attention to it. Just casually observe everything, the alarm included. Stay calm and continue to fall back to sleep. Its the same concept as falling asleep with the TV on. You can still fall asleep with sound going, just don't focus/lock in on it. Let it be normal background fodder as you carry out your process.

DEILD Closing Tip
DEILD is pretty easy and very basic. You pretty much just lay there relaxed, calm, and fall asleep. DEILD is a specific form of WILD and you should treat the process as such. Just imagine during your DEILD that you are performing a WILD, but you have basically skipped 75% of the early process and you only have to go 25% more to complete it and be successful. Just like a "normal" WILD, you have to fall asleep first and foremost.

Ezzo

Hi Sivason, sorry to keep latching onto your experiences but I have the option to either use either a sound alarm or simply hold the phone and vibrate for a few seconds. As I am going to stick to one or the other for a while, is there any advantage over one or the other? If i use sound, i can have any sound / voice that i choose but will have to wear headphones. If i use a vibrating alarm then i will hold the phone in my hand after 4 hours

Any ideas if sound or vibrate alarm is better than the other in case ive missed something

and many thanks, your helping lots of DIELDers on here :-)
Ezzo

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Originally Posted by ezzolucid

Hi Sivason, sorry to keep latching onto your experiences but I have the option to either use either a sound alarm or simply hold the phone and vibrate for a few seconds. As I am going to stick to one or the other for a while, is there any advantage over one or the other? If i use sound, i can have any sound / voice that i choose but will have to wear headphones. If i use a vibrating alarm then i will hold the phone in my hand after 4 hours

Any ideas if sound or vibrate alarm is better than the other in case ive missed something

and many thanks, your helping lots of DIELDers on here :-)
Ezzo

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Try the sound thing. The only reason I hold my phone is lack of motivation to find a better app. My method works fine for me, but I imagine is distracting and odd, so a sound app would work better for most, even me, if I would just take the time to down load one.

I have been doing this with mild success. It is definitely important to note that it still takes the fundamentals of lding. Without the sleep schedule, it is much harder to retain awareness. Keep working on the fundamentals while finding new techniques to exercise them.

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Originally Posted by Sensei

I have been doing this with mild success. It is definitely important to note that it still takes the fundamentals of lding. Without the sleep schedule, it is much harder to retain awareness. Keep working on the fundamentals while finding new techniques to exercise them.

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Thanks for the comments guys. For the last 10 nights I have been setting the auto snooze for every 15 minutes after 5 hours of sleep, the alarm auto shuts off after 2 seconds and i am able to keep still upon awakening. I then try to deild by simply trying to go back to sleep whilst retaining slight awareness with the use of a mantra 'i am dreaming' I have only had 1 success where my hands started to go numb so i started to FILD and this led to me dreaming about rubbing my hands and i became lucid that way.

With so many attempts each night (8 to 12) Im unsure why i am not having more success. I understand the basics of how to WILD / DEILD and have succesfully WILD in the past

Is this a case of a technique that takes time? Maybe 1 success per week gradually going up over time due to persistent pracise and habit forming or is this something that I am getting fundamentally wrong somehow?

I always wait about 5 hours before the alarm starts to go off. It sounds every 15 mins for 2 seconds then shuts off on its own, I keep still , calm and simply try to reenter the sleep / dream state. I NEVER remember the previous dream upon awakenings and NEVER visualize to try entry. I simply remain still and observe the falling asleep process with a mantra. (im happy for the dream to begin in the bedroom) A lot of tutorials advocate entry in this way if visualization is not someones strong point

I also get to bed at 11pm every night and awaken at 7.30 so i have a steady sleep schedule. I havnt been doing reality checks or ADA / Mindfulness during the day as I cant see how these are helpful for a Deild or Wild (or maybe im wrong?) :-/

All help is very welcome, thank you
Ezzo

Hey there,

Are you still paying enough attention to the dreams itself? It's good that you're focusing on intention and techniques, but make sure you're not solely focusing on them.

Also remember that when you change your sleep habits, especially if you're going to do forced awakenings like you do with alarms, your body needs some time to adjust to the new rhythme. Usually, after some early sucesses, you see a downfall because the body has grown tired due to the rhythme break, which leads to sleeping deeper to recover, and thus having less lucidity and recall because of it. Could be that you're still going through the adjustment period. Might need some time to level itself out.

-Redrivertears-

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Originally Posted by ezzolucid

Thanks for the comments guys. For the last 10 nights I have been setting the auto snooze for every 15 minutes after 5 hours of sleep, the alarm auto shuts off after 2 seconds and i am able to keep still upon awakening. I then try to deild by simply trying to go back to sleep whilst retaining slight awareness with the use of a mantra 'i am dreaming' I have only had 1 success where my hands started to go numb so i started to FILD and this led to me dreaming about rubbing my hands and i became lucid that way.

With so many attempts each night (8 to 12) Im unsure why i am not having more success. I understand the basics of how to WILD / DEILD and have succesfully WILD in the past

Is this a case of a technique that takes time? Maybe 1 success per week gradually going up over time due to persistent pracise and habit forming or is this something that I am getting fundamentally wrong somehow?

I always wait about 5 hours before the alarm starts to go off. It sounds every 15 mins for 2 seconds then shuts off on its own, I keep still , calm and simply try to reenter the sleep / dream state. I NEVER remember the previous dream upon awakenings and NEVER visualize to try entry. I simply remain still and observe the falling asleep process with a mantra. (im happy for the dream to begin in the bedroom) A lot of tutorials advocate entry in this way if visualization is not someones strong point

I also get to bed at 11pm every night and awaken at 7.30 so i have a steady sleep schedule. I havnt been doing reality checks or ADA / Mindfulness during the day as I cant see how these are helpful for a Deild or Wild (or maybe im wrong?) :-/

All help is very welcome, thank you
Ezzo

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Well I think that in retrospect, I try to WILD about 35 times a week and have about 2 a week with the last 3 and a half years of practice. As little as that seems from all of the practice, it would be a lot less if I didn't have the DILDs as well. Knowing the feelings of dreams is going to make it easier to enter.

I recommend working on both. If WILD or DEILD isn't working, then just back away and sleep trying to DILD. Awareness and all of that day work isn't just for incubation, but also for keeping lucidity and remembering goals etc. If you have no practice with awareness, then you are going to have a hard time LDing, even if you get into a WILD, you are cutting yourself short. You will have less WILDs if you don't DILD,and vice versa.
Here is my thread mainly about induction. I link it a lot, but I feel like it has a lot of my favorite ideas and things that I love repeating:
http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...s-secrets.html

I second all of that. You can not skip the daytime work such as awareness. It is just too key to the issue. Cover every base including everything for DILD or you will have less luck with any method.

NEW AUDIO for CANwild

So Ive created a short audio file for my CANwild atempts.

It is 20 seconds long, it fades in very very gently over the first 10 seconds so as to not jolt you awake. Then there is 2 lines of speech (keep still, start dreaming) and I have put a slight reverb sound effect to create a dreamy like speech, this then fades out over several seconds.

The whole thing is recorded on top of Bliss coded sound

Please feel free to download, comment and criticize, thanks guy

http://goo.gl/TttGKH

Ezzo

^^ That's great, and good luck with it, but I hope you had time to check out the three posts that preceded yours, as they really point to the core of success with any route to LD'ing, including DEILD: if you aren't developing the fundamentals, the best techniques available may fail. If your mind is not prepared to LD, they very likely will not come, and when they do they will not last very long.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That's great, and good luck with it, but I hope you had time to check out the three posts that preceded yours, as they really point to the core of success with any route to LD'ing, including DEILD: if you aren't developing the fundamentals, the best techniques available may fail. If your mind is not prepared to LD, they very likely will not come, and when they do they will not last very long.

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Hi Sageous, yes i still practise daily meditation and reality checks, I also write my dreams each day so hopefully this will all gel together with practise.

^^ That too is all good, but remember also that you ought to have a good grasp on the fundamentals of LD'ing, which I personally consider to be self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention. If you aren't doing things during the day to increase the quality of these things, the best techniques in the world might still fail you.

That's all we were trying to say, I think. If you are already working with the fundamentals, that's great; but I just wanted to be clear, in case others reading this assume that DEILD will work simply by doing the technique and ignoring the more tedious efforts to get your head in the right place for LD'ing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ That too is all good, but remember also that you ought to have a good grasp on the fundamentals of LD'ing, which I personally consider to be self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention. If you aren't doing things during the day to increase the quality of these things, the best techniques in the world might still fail you.

That's all we were trying to say, I think. If you are already working with the fundamentals, that's great; but I just wanted to be clear, in case others reading this assume that DEILD will work simply by doing the technique and ignoring the more tedious efforts to get your head in the right place for LD'ing.

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Thanks Sageous. I have read your fundementals guide many times over the past months and totally agree that self awareness is key to lucid dreaming. With so much information it is sometimes difficult to 'choose' what to do during the day to increase self awareness.

I appreciate that different things work for different people but even so, can you please critisize my daily routine in case i am doing something fundamentally wrong.

Each 30 mins (approx) I perform a reality check like this ... I slow / pause what im doing and ask myself 'is this a dream?' I really try to imagine that this could be a dream. I then ask myself who i am with, what i am doing and what i was doing previously. I dont give myself long drawn out answers, i simply visualize the answers instead. I then spend a few minutes looking for anything around me that could indicate that im dreaming such as anything illogical in my environment. I then finish with a nose plug. I also spend 30 minutes in the afternoon doing breath meditation.

This all lasts for about 5 minutes each time.

I do think that this thread does indeed need input on the fundamentals so that those reading will not think that just the technique alone is enough.

Can I improve on that reality check above or would you consider it sufficient, and thanks for all the input from everybody

Ezzo

^^ I'm glad that you've checked out my fundamentals thread, Ezzo (though honestly I already had a feeling that you Had! ;)).

Your RC routine sounds like a good one -- as long as it hasn't become too routine, of course, and still has your interest and sincerity when you're doing them. Hopefully your meditation includes things like contemplating upcoming dreams, practicing a form helpful to LD'ing (like Vipassana), or perhaps opening yourself to a dreamlike feeling; but even if it doesn't, meditation is always a good tool for getting your mind in the right place.

About the only other things I can think of right now are things you very likely are already doing as well:

You ought to be spending time during the day thinking about your upcoming LD and DEILD attempt; thinking about what you'll be doing, where you'll be going, etc. These thoughts might help to build up a place in your mind that is ready to work with your conscious processes during the DEILD, to establish an expectation to DEILD, and to hold onto the dream after you do.

Also, while falling asleep for the first time on the night of your DEILD attempt, you should be sure to set an intention that sounds something like "I will remember my dream when the alarm sounds, and I will return to that dream right away," possibly stated more specifically to your plans.

People are often worried about forming habits when it comes to lds, saying things like "don't let it get too routine" etc. I recommend changing it up after a while so that the habit that you are developing is the habit of raising awareness. Habits aren't bad, but it is easy to develop a bad habit. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ I'm glad that you've checked out my fundamentals thread, Ezzo (though honestly I already had a feeling that you Had! ;)).

Your RC routine sounds like a good one -- as long as it hasn't become too routine, of course, and still has your interest and sincerity when you're doing them. Hopefully your meditation includes things like contemplating upcoming dreams, practicing a form helpful to LD'ing (like Vipassana), or perhaps opening yourself to a dreamlike feeling; but even if it doesn't, meditation is always a good tool for getting your mind in the right place.

About the only other things I can think of right now are things you very likely are already doing as well:

You ought to be spending time during the day thinking about your upcoming LD and DEILD attempt; thinking about what you'll be doing, where you'll be going, etc. These thoughts might help to build up a place in your mind that is ready to work with your conscious processes during the DEILD, to establish an expectation to DEILD, and to hold onto the dream after you do.

Also, while falling asleep for the first time on the night of your DEILD attempt, you should be sure to set an intention that sounds something like "I will remember my dream when the alarm sounds, and I will return to that dream right away," possibly stated more specifically to your plans.

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Thanks again for all the great advice. Ive been looking to spice up my seated meditation. Is vipassani a good method for lucid dreaming? If so, why is this more beneficial over, say, breathif meditation?

Thanks
Ezzo

Hey,
I have tried this Alarm-DEILD (CANwild sounds weird, sorry) for 10 days, so about 70 attempts, none of which were successful. I used the 2 second auto-snooze with the default beep sound. The during the first few days I adjusted the volume, and I think it was good because half the time I feel asleep too quickly. I wasn't doing any RCs during the day, or meditation. I have had a dozen lucids before using SSILD in a month and a half, without doing RCs during the day, ever since Cosmic Iron said they were pointless. I thought this Alarm-DEILD would give me more success, I think I'll stick to SSILD and start doing RCs after reading the GREAT links you guys have posted. This technique sounded too good to be true ;(
Actually, I'm gonna give this 3 more days, but I'll be doing Raduga's indirect techniques just to see if it's just the transition into the dream that's not working for me (apparently the indirect techniques have a very high success rate).
Will post back soon.
Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by warlockfire1

Hey,
I have tried this Alarm-DEILD (CANwild sounds weird, sorry) for 10 days, so about 70 attempts, none of which were successful. I used the 2 second auto-snooze with the default beep sound. The during the first few days I adjusted the volume, and I think it was good because half the time I feel asleep too quickly. I wasn't doing any RCs during the day, or meditation. I have had a dozen lucids before using SSILD in a month and a half, without doing RCs during the day, ever since Cosmic Iron said they were pointless. I thought this Alarm-DEILD would give me more success, I think I'll stick to SSILD and start doing RCs after reading the GREAT links you guys have posted. This technique sounded too good to be true ;(
Actually, I'm gonna give this 3 more days, but I'll be doing Raduga's indirect techniques just to see if it's just the transition into the dream that's not working for me (apparently the indirect techniques have a very high success rate).
Will post back soon.
Thanks.

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Well 10 days isn't very long. Especially if you have no experience other than this. Are you still practicing the fundamentals?

I feel like falling asleep too quickly usually is because of a bad sleep schedule. When I am on a good sleep schedule, I am never really "tired" throughout the day or night.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ezzolucid

Thanks again for all the great advice. Ive been looking to spice up my seated meditation. Is vipassani a good method for lucid dreaming? If so, why is this more beneficial over, say, breathif meditation?

Thanks
Ezzo

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I personally recommend Vipassana yoga/meditation, because its focus seems to be mainly on calmly centering your mind on your presence in the moment, including (through observation) your presence and participation in reality. This is an excellent state of mind to establish for LD'ing because it ties right into the experience of lucidity (and dreaming in general), perhaps giving you a leg up in both appreciating your presence in the dream, and helping with dream control as well: when lucid you are experiencing a potentially pure here & now moment within a "reality" with which you are not only interacting, but is actually all "You;" I think Vipassana yoga is a good practice to help prepare you to comfortably note your presence in that interaction, and to acknowledge that the dream is all you... in other words, it seems to hit just the right buttons for lucidity without taking you to places that might not be very helpful.

Most Vipassana meditations generally use breathing as well, so it won't be too alien for you, though its practice works just as well -- if not better -- while not seated.

For me, the trouble with breath meditation on its own is that the focus tends to be on using your attention to breathing to relax you, to basically empty your mind of everything except the action of that breathing. This is great for settling your mind, clearing it of unwanted thoughts, and getting you to a peaceful place consciously, and I certainly have no problem with that. However, lucidity depends on your thoughts: dreaming is thought, and anything you can do to elevate thoughts related to your dream, or the actual state of dreaming (as Vipassana does) will be most helpful; pushing those thoughts aside, and getting good at pushing those thoughts aside, might prove a deterrent to successful lucidity.

Also, on a more practical note: breath meditation tends to keep you awake, so it is not the best thing to do, say, during a WILD/DEILD attempt -- I know you don't do this, but thought it worth mentioning.


tl;dr: The experience of Vipassana meditation tends to line up nicely with the experience of LD'ing, while straight breath meditation tends to take a step away from the experience of LD'ing.

Ezzo, i have had 66% success (at least 1 LD per night attempt) with alarm deild, even better when coupled with wbtb. I used the same settings as you.
I think this approach has great promise specially If coupled with REM detection.
I stoped using it because it was annoying for me and sometimes my family, but this is sth that can be improved and i am sure someone will make a nice device.

Besides and more importantly i am now putting all my energy to increase my awareness and perception of reality, which i think adresses the problem of both day and night lucidity at its root.

That is to say, i think DEILD is the best technique for most people but not the ultimate solution for the spiritually mistically inclined lucid dreamer, which probably aims for an integration of day and night consciousness

Yeah I've tried this technique before. I use an android app called "Alarm Clock Xtreme". Does same thing. I set it to set off every like 10 min after a wbtb, only playing for 5-10s. But, me being me, a complete alien to you guys :chuckle:, I never actually wake up!! Dubstep! I'll have to put dubstep now when I try it again tonight!! Finally I just figured out the solution right now in the spot while typing this!! xD

Thank you for this post ezzolucid! I was already giving DEILD a go for a while before reading your post and I got discouraged with the method, but your enthusiasm is contagious :loveyou:

Can anyone recommend an iOS alarm besides alarm clock bud? I've used it before and I'm not really satisfied with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emnition

Thank you for this post ezzolucid! I was already giving DEILD a go for a while before reading your post and I got discouraged with the method, but your enthusiasm is contagious :loveyou:

Can anyone recommend an iOS alarm besides alarm clock bud? I've used it before and I'm not really satisfied with it.

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Why are you not satisfied with alarm clockbud? It is extremely flexible.

If it may be helpful for someone, or just for the sake of the dicussion i used an android app and set it to beep every 15 or 30 min, after usually 5 hours of sleep, for 3-5 seconds. I choosed a particular ringtone, and stick to it.
When combining these settings with long WBTBs, and i mean no less than 4 hours wbtb sorry, which i could manage on weekends and holidays, i achieved success in 2/3 attempts. But it demanded a rigorous sleep schedule, which i could manage during the experiment days. Without wbtb, my success rate is maybe 30-40 percent.
The alarm will sporadically ring in the middle of the Rem phase and if you are still drowsy and can fall asleep you can attempt a Deild. Upon hearing the alaram, I usually immediately feel the residue of the dream body and try to stimulate it by moving dream body parts and gettiing out of bed. Then usually i just fly through the window of my room lol

@vagaltone Is having a steady sleep schedule THAT important?? It's hard for me to do that now.

Also you're motivating me so much to try to succeed at this technique lol
My only problem is that I need a noisy alarm and my family hates that (small apartment). But now to think of it, I do my wbtb after i get back from college, which is before anyone arrives home (I sleep for like 6 hours then wake up to go to college). I guess this should work out, and also if i stick to it, my sleep schedule would work out.

Now all i need to do is decide between an NCS track or a noisia one. Hmmmm.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LouaiB

@vagaltone Is having a steady sleep schedule THAT important?? It's hard for me to do that now.

Also you're motivating me so much to try to succeed at this technique lol
My only problem is that I need a noisy alarm and my family hates that (small apartment). But now to think of it, I do my wbtb after i get back from college, which is before anyone arrives home (I sleep for like 6 hours then wake up to go to college). I guess this should work out, and also if i stick to it, my sleep schedule would work out.

Now all i need to do is decide between an NCS track or a noisia one. Hmmmm.....

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I think it was important, but i havent tried a normal hectic sleep schedule so..but i noticed that if i was tired i needed to ajust the alarm, either to be more lousy or longer. So i figured that if i could sleep with the same level of sleepiness everyday, i could keep my alarm settings stable and fine tune it much better. Otherwise it may be more difficult to find the sweet spot because one is always changing some variables lol.

But yeah, i think you have a good opportunity to try during an afternoon nap. Good luck

Hey ezzo, I've been reading all the posts on this thread, and this method seems very interesting to me. I definitely have to try it out. But, I was just wondering one thing. Why do you set your alarm to go off every 15 minutes after 7 hours of waiting?

Like I know sleep cycles go by 90 minute intervals with REM cycles at the end of each interval, the length of the REM cycle getting longer as the night progresses. But why would you want an alarm to keep going off every 15 minutes? It seems to me that you let the alarm go off after 7 hours, and you try the DEILD, if it fails you go to sleep normally and have to wait another 90 minutes for the next REM cycle. Am I missing something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fatalcubez

Hey ezzo, I've been reading all the posts on this thread, and this method seems very interesting to me. I definitely have to try it out. But, I was just wondering one thing. Why do you set your alarm to go off every 15 minutes after 7 hours of waiting?

Like I know sleep cycles go by 90 minute intervals with REM cycles at the end of each interval, the length of the REM cycle getting longer as the night progresses. But why would you want an alarm to keep going off every 15 minutes? It seems to me that you let the alarm go off after 7 hours, and you try the DEILD, if it fails you go to sleep normally and have to wait another 90 minutes for the next REM cycle. Am I missing something?

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When you interrupt a rem cycle, it will restart again (and extend) as soon as you go back to sleep.

Also, i feel that if you interrupt a dream / REM sleep and get everything 'just right' then any technique will get you into the dream. As VigaTone says, he feels for residue of a dream body and tries to stimulate a limb and this helps him to 'roll out' of his body. Some others visualize the last dream and some simply lie there retaining awareness with a mantra.

It dont matter what vehicle you use as long as you complete the journey

For me I have an elaborate set up which took a whilst to figure out which is this:

I have an Apple watch (iWatch) and it vibrates onto the wrist when my iPhone rings. So i downloaded an app that automatically rings my phone at set intervals (i choose each 20 mins after about 6 hours of sleep). I wear my iwatch to bed and it vibrates without any sound several times during REM

I also programmed my iphone to go to answerphone after 20 rings so this means that not only does it vibrate but it switches off automatically - quality! :-)

Ezzo

Ezzo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I personally recommend Vipassana yoga/meditation, because its focus seems to be mainly on calmly centering your mind on your presence in the moment, including (through observation) your presence and participation in reality. This is an excellent state of mind to establish for LD'ing because it ties right into the experience of lucidity (and dreaming in general), perhaps giving you a leg up in both appreciating your presence in the dream, and helping with dream control as well: when lucid you are experiencing a potentially pure here & now moment within a "reality" with which you are not only interacting, but is actually all "You;" I think Vipassana yoga is a good practice to help prepare you to comfortably note your presence in that interaction, and to acknowledge that the dream is all you... in other words, it seems to hit just the right buttons for lucidity without taking you to places that might not be very helpful.

Most Vipassana meditations generally use breathing as well, so it won't be too alien for you, though its practice works just as well -- if not better -- while not seated.

For me, the trouble with breath meditation on its own is that the focus tends to be on using your attention to breathing to relax you, to basically empty your mind of everything except the action of that breathing. This is great for settling your mind, clearing it of unwanted thoughts, and getting you to a peaceful place consciously, and I certainly have no problem with that. However, lucidity depends on your thoughts: dreaming is thought, and anything you can do to elevate thoughts related to your dream, or the actual state of dreaming (as Vipassana does) will be most helpful; pushing those thoughts aside, and getting good at pushing those thoughts aside, might prove a deterrent to successful lucidity.

Also, on a more practical note: breath meditation tends to keep you awake, so it is not the best thing to do, say, during a WILD/DEILD attempt -- I know you don't do this, but thought it worth mentioning.


tl;dr: The experience of Vipassana meditation tends to line up nicely with the experience of LD'ing, while straight breath meditation tends to take a step away from the experience of LD'ing.

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As I see it: the purpose of Samatha (focus meditation, on e.g. the breathe) meditation is to build the ability to focus attention. I'd say it is a prerequisite to vipassana, which I like to summarize as "focused attention on awareness." When one can not yet focus the mind effectively on something simple like the breath, trying to focus on something as complex as awareness will be much harder or ineffective.

Also, breath meditation is a great way to start a session and then move on to vipassana once your mind is settled :).

So I think both are useful. Samatha as a lead-in to Vipassana, and samatha also as a great way to combat insomnia, and get your WILD attempts started. In neither approach is one supposed to fall asleep, so some adaptation for LD practice is needed to tip the balance towards relaxation, say in a WILD dive.

It seems that a WILD or DEILD attempt is simply a meditation session close to REM with the intention of falling asleep. I always WILD and DEILD by simply focusing on my mantra (stay aware, stay aware). I never bother with visualizing a scene as im happy to start the dream from my 'dream bedroom'

I bought a book 'Mindfullness in plain English' which is all about Vipassana but uses breath concentration to ease into the awareness / mindfulness practise.


Ezzo

^^ Thanks for the reminder of that book. I have it but never really started it. And yes, WILD/DEILD are basically meditation where you allow yourself to fall asleep.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ezzolucid

Why are you not satisfied with alarm clockbud? It is extremely flexible.

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I have to admit it's been a while since I've used it, so I'm not exactly sure anymore. But I recall having some struggles with it. I'm gonna give it a second chance though, who knows :)