Creating a dream guide

A couple of recurring people or figures in my dreams are sometimes associated with lucid dreaming (talk about it, say things like "imagine this being a dream", etc.) - so I guess this makes them dream guides of sort? Other than that, I have little experience with dream guides, especially as a tool for DILD induction.

I decided to make an experiment of it - to try to create an artificial dream guide... I chose a person, not from my waking life, and will try to make that person my dream guide of sorts... Maybe incubate that idea, or try to associate the person with lucid dreaming or just dreaming. :-?

Anyway, I was wondering - have you made the same experiment? Has anyone chose his / her own dream guide? As I said, I don't have experience with this topic, so would love to hear your take on the matter, or how did it went for you (successfully or not, and in what way)? :wink:

I haven't tried anything like this, but it seems interesting! I'd like to read about your results when you have some, and I might even try myself.

I would also be interested in seeing how this goes. Theoretically I think if you associate someone as a LD mentor or guide in general who has a meaningful impact on you then they might pop into your dreams in that same mentor role, but I'm not sure if they would be a proper 'Dream Guide' as such or just your attempt at making one. For example one lucid I had Sivason's avatar came floating towards me and showing me his dream control powers, far superior to mine (long story haha). This was very weird and unexpected but I think because I see him as so knowledgeable about LDing my subconscious decided to throw him in as a guide figure. Whether you can deliberately create a pseudo-guide like that or a full fledged dream guide deliberately, either way, would be pretty cool!

Thank you guys for the interest and motivation! :)
I'll keep this thread updated with my progress... I'm not sure if it counts but I had this tonight, during an early awakening (after ~4.5 hours of sleep) -

I woke up and went to the bathroom to pee and meanwhile to recall the dreams I had. It felt like I just had some, but couldn't recall them. Returning to bed I was starting to do a sort of short mantra WILD (with no WBTB other than the pee break). As I got relaxed and the mantra was in my head at that point (so after the body "numbed out") I decided to try to dream guide idea. So I visualized the figure I chose for it, and imagined it standing in a white room and telling me the mantras instead of me telling them to myself (a loop of - "you'll remember your dreams", "next thing you'll see is a dream", instead "I'll" and "my"). I have to admit that the visualization kinda sucked in quality and it was hard to maintain it, and it felt like if I'll try to keep it up I might wake my body up :P But then something cool happened, and when she said "you'll remember your dreams" for maybe the tenth time or more - I suddenly recalled a huge fragment of a dream - a calendar page with a code written in hidden ink on it. So I focused on that memory and most of that dream floated up (the dream was "epic", quite long, and sci-fi-ish), and I also recalled another dream that followed this one - it was shorter and was the dream from which I woke up.

Of course, because of focusing on recalling as much as possible I had to wake up fully and also decided to record them (both were quite interesting). After that, I tried to repeat this process (kinda WILD with the guide telling me the mantra) - but had no farther results (woke up 2 more times and tried to repeat the process, recalled a total of 6 dreams, no LDs but all relatively detailed, the guide made no appearance on her own).

To be honest, I'm not sure that the guide was what made me recall the dreams. I mean, it happens that some fragment suddenly floats up to the surface... But the timing seemed kinda convincing, plus I got the visual of that page as if she was holding it (in the actual dream, a random woman was holding the page, and I stole a look of it to solve the puzzle before her and the others... long story...)

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Originally Posted by BlairBros

Theoretically I think if you associate someone as a LD mentor or guide in general who has a meaningful impact on you then they might pop into your dreams in that same mentor role, but I'm not sure if they would be a proper 'Dream Guide' as such or just your attempt at making one. For example one lucid I had Sivason's avatar came floating towards me and showing me his dream control powers, far superior to mine (long story haha). This was very weird and unexpected but I think because I see him as so knowledgeable about LDing my subconscious decided to throw him in as a guide figure. Whether you can deliberately create a pseudo-guide like that or a full fledged dream guide deliberately, either way, would be pretty cool!

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All my dream guides were of a similar variety to which you described in your example. For instance, one of my more reoccurring "guides" is a friend from when I was in mid-to-high school. We always talked about LDing in real life and he was a better dreamer than me, so I guess that this is why we nearly always talk about it whenever he makes a random appearance in my dreams, lucid or not (even though I haven't seen him for years).
Is there any other kind of dream guide, though? I think that all dream guides have their roots in a figure we see as a mentor or a peer of sorts in real life. At least I'm not familiar with a truer kind of dream guide - so I'm not sure what is the "full fledged" kind?

Either way, I'm trying to create a dream guide like this (like that friend from school), but one that is not from my RL - so whenever I'll see that character I'll be at least more suspicious that it's a dream because the character didn't / doesn't / won't have other roles in my life. Also, guides from RL tend to appear randomly and rarely, but maybe an artificial one would have more appearances (so getting the hint will be more likely). Of course it doesn't seem like the most efficient way, but oh well... ;)

^^
I am not 100% on this sort of stuff, but some people believe that you can have a/multiple dream guides who are more spiritual and ... independent I guess than something you create. They sort of already existed and didn't need to be created. It gets a bit murky here with people's different spirituality and beliefs but I think that is generally considered to be a 'full fledged' dream guide, or at least that was the sense in which I was using the term. In practicality though I don't really think there would be too much difference between an artificially created DG and a spontaneous one, however as I said I'm no expert so I can't be certain :).

Ahh, I see what you mean now... Well, I think my user name makes it fairly likely that I'm not a religious person and wouldn't be considered spiritual in the common sense... ;)
But to me this seems to be a matter of interpretation, really. Whether one thinks that a DG is an actual spiritual other-worldly being or simply a mentor figure influenced by RL experience, it isn't like these are two distinct types but rather distinct interpretations of the same phenomenon. That's how it seems at least to me. I mean, one could argue that the being behind the "image" of Sivason in your dream is some sort of a spiritual being as well, just hiding behind a face you'll see as appropriate. Either way, to me a dream guide is a DC that is either more lucid or more in control than your own dream self, sometimes a reoccurring character (both interpretations fit in this definition).

To me the question is, is it possible to make an artificial character that is persistent and that "important" to your subconscious, that it will become a DG? If it's achievable (or more specifically, achievable for me), I agree - I see no reason for it to function any differently from a spontaneous DG. :)

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Originally Posted by Spock

To me the question is, is it possible to make an artificial character that is persistent and that "important" to your subconscious, that it will become a DG?

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Yes and no. I think what you mean is someone who is not obviously a representation of a real person, nor an existing DC who plainly presents themself as a guide. To this, I claim yes. I felt a "no" when you used the word "artificial" but maybe that's just a failing of words. You do have the right idea though, which is to make the character "important."

To make them important, you want to borrow from archetypes, your own values, and memories. An idea becomes "important" when you see how it connects to and supports other ideas. So this isn't "artificial" in the sense of de novo. It's more like a "synthesis" where something new emerges from combining existing things.

My experience is that you will find a DG in the most unlikely place. That is because the role of the guide is to show you new things, not replay existing things. The ideas and archetypes that you start with may morph and evolve. The rote things will fall away, leaving the novel and interesting things to sustain your curiosity.

So, it's okay to go looking for them. Every investigation starts where you are with the limited facts you have. The key, I think, is not to invest too much in what you expect to find. Engage your curiosity in a genuine way and follow the clues rather than coercing them. After you have gained some rapport with the guide, you can ask about them and maybe they will change. Maybe you thought your DG would be Spock but you find Scotty instead. After talking to him, he may become a more nuanced hybrid of many such characters. That is synthesis. In the end, your guide will satisfy what you are looking for, even when you didn't know what it was to begin with.

When I was beginning to lucid dream I had three dreams about a young Russian-like blond girl who grew into a young woman during the 3 dreams. When I woke up I was thinking about using a cell phone in dreams for control but I feared that if I said Siri this girl might appear behind me with that name as my dream guide and then how could I use Siri after that, so just in case I googled "Apps Like Siri" and the top result was like a picture of Kiira Korpi, who I had never heard of before, but she was a dead ringer for the girl I had dreamed of. I mean I was stunned to see her picture pop up in a google search like 3 min after waking from a dream of a girl exactly like her. So after that I imagined that this famous Finnish ice skater should be my dream guide. Each night I would imagine a plan where I would take out my phone when lucid then say "Siri where's Kiira" and if she showed up I would behind the back summon a pair of anti-matter ice skates for her (in a wrapped present box) so that she could skate in the sky (and use the blades to take out any dream menace I might encounter).

But even tho I persisted in this for months Kiira has never showed up again. Candice Swanepol has turned up on her own a few times, and I have managed to summon Erin Heartherton a few times too, but Kiira has been MIA for like over a year now :)

You can also spend time visualizing this character during meditation, as well as using hypnosis to "meet" them during the waking state. You might also "meet" a different character who will work out better. The unconscious mind will have its say, regardless.

sisyphus, yes I agree - synthetic would be a better term than artificial, since the DG is still based on the same principles. That's exactly what I'm trying to do to make her important. But unfortunately I can't let my subconscious lead completely, because the whole experiment centers around building the DG on [some of] my own terms - for example, not to be a person that I once knew.

cooleymd, that's a very interesting experience! I had experienced before hearing a word for the first time [as far as I could remember!] in a dream to later learn it's real, but never met someone to later learn they exist. Just goes to show, at least in my opinion, who much of the world our brain filters out. Some of it finds its way back to us. Also goes to show how stubborn the subconscious is! ;)

ThreeCat, I'm actually trying meditation for it (or at least my version of meditation, which is probably nowhere near perfected). I'm not sure I understand your second suggestion of "meeting" them during the waking state - could you elaborate on it?

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Originally Posted by Spock

sisyphus, yes I agree - synthetic would be a better term than artificial, since the DG is still based on the same principles. That's exactly what I'm trying to do to make her important. But unfortunately I can't let my subconscious lead completely, because the whole experiment centers around building the DG on [some of] my own terms - for example, not to be a person that I once knew.

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Yes, I think we agree. Let me mull another analogy. It's a trial-and-error process. Or a binary search. This happens both in waking and dreaming. You experiment in the dreaming, and then reflect in waking. Maybe Prototype A wasn't the best fit. Tweak a few things. Peel a layer off the onion. Or maybe it makes sense to you to add rather than subtract. Then try again with Prototype B. The dreaming part is interacting with the character, or even just seeing and describing them. The waking part is comparing the feelings from the dream experience against your values. To use an imprecise term, you iteratively "gut check" your choices. And if there is a disconnect on the emotional level, then shift to a rational and/or creative mode of thinking to explore how to resolve the mismatch. I think that's along the lines of what ThreeCat was saying about meeting them in waking.

I liked cooley's experience too, so I will share mine.

I first tried to assign Yoda as my DG. Perfectly suited archetype, right? But that fizzled because my dreams aren't very fantastical, so I shifted to something more realistic: Obi-wan Kenobi. But still, too fantasy. I peeled away the character and tried the broader archetype of The Mentor, an old man with a beard. But that still didn't sit well with me, and that's when I started thinking about my values. My most prominent value is Self-Reliance. So the idea of a mentor just didn't jive with me. I prefer to do things on my own.

So next, I experimented with more abstract things as a DG. Like The Narrator as a movie-like voiceover. Or The Prophetic Book that contains all the wisdom of life. But those didn't seem to fit either. So, I reconsidered my values and settled on the notion that I greatly value Compassion too. I wanted my dreams to be about people and relationships, so these abstractions seemed to distant.

I finally settled on the entirety of dreaming as my guide, in the same what that the concept of Science or Nature can be a compelling guide. The metaphor that I settled on was that my dreams are The Theater. And that really resonated with my values. The Theater is a concept, an environment, a practice, and a form of entertainment. It is abstract but it is also very much about humanity and relationships and drama. So that is my dream guide.

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creative mode of thinking to explore how to resolve the mismatch.

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Yep. It's possible to interact with your projections during waking state. Visualize your DG, ask questions: how can I best bring you into the dream? See what they say. My advice would be to let the unconscious process choose the guide, however. It will be more organic. The ego usually wants things to be a certain way, but it may not be most helpful to you in the end. Shamanic journey (probably, not much experience ) and guided hypnosis stronger way to do this. Go the bottom of the temple, open the door: who is behind it? That kind of thing. Make your creative mind (the unconscious, truly creative part) part of the process, and consider the suggestions it makes.

sisyphus,
Yoda as a DG - yes, pretty straight forward ;)
Well, I do agree that a dream guide in the general sense would be something more abstract - since it's a representation of your subconscious. But why does the form that it uses to represent itself can't be changed? In my experience with dream guides, my subconscious uses more than one representation. What I'm trying to say, maybe poorly, is that even when we talk about the less abstract from of DG, the "not full fledged form" in BlairBros' terminology - it is still there to represent the "full fledged" / most abstract DG - our subconscious mind. So it makes sense that you can keep developing the representation into something more abstract with time. But in the end of the day, whether it's Yoda, Sivason, or Nature itself - it's still just a representation for the same thing. As you've said - it's a synthesis based on old elements. I'm just asking whether it's possible to assign a specific representation for the phenomenon, rather to just let it be represented fairy [pseudo-]randomly - and it seems that, based on your experience, the answer is at least partially 'yes'.

ThreeCat,
Hmmm, my imagination is good and all, but not that good to give my 'visualized characters' their own freedom of thought, like DCs have... I think that they will just say what I would visualize them to say (on a conscious level) - so I can't possibly get a "honest response". That would require a much deeper state than I can reach in waking.
About your advice to let it be organic - it's not that I disagree, but rather the whole point of my "experiment" is to see if it can be done the opposite way - not organically, but synthetically. A response to the question "can one swim against the current?" can't be "it's better to swim with it".

I have a character I have created and drawn many times and am building a personality for. She's meant to be a thought form (some call them tulpas), and I really want to meet her in a lucid dream. I have been trying for ages.
Just last night I felt that she was there and she interacted with the environment a little bit, but it was like she was invisible, and never says anything either.
I'm not sure what to do to improve this.

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the whole point of my "experiment" is to see if it can be done the opposite way - not organically, but synthetically.

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ah a physicist :)

i want to approach the whole dreamguide theme also. i dont feel creative enough to visualize or form me an appearance. i also dont have specific goals i want to discuss or get from my DG (dont know how important it is to have a real aim with it but on the other hand i started lucid dreaming in a similar way with no specific goal and nevertheless i enjoy it so much that i continue doing it and get some motivation again and again).
in my opinion it is possible to form a DG or atleast a DC similar like insideout is doing it. drawing it imagine and visualize it a lot during waking, daydreaming about it and setting strong intention. this approach might be successfull after some time when you really really want it. question is if sheer curiosity is enough to accomplish this task. what you also could do is call for a DG during a lucid and when someone appear you could ask him or her why she´s not looking like your image you want to. maybe they change or maybe they have a good argument to look different that you might accept and take their image to detail it further?

i think it is important to treat it the long run and make it the number one goal for at least some weeks and everytime getting lucid calling out for a dreamguide and be openminded to it. same like recall your subc. will notice your interest and importance in this subject and will give you better and better results with it plus your expectation and experience will grow and develop with it too.

my opinion...

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Originally Posted by Spock

Well, I do agree that a dream guide in the general sense would be something more abstract - since it's a representation of your subconscious. But why does the form that it uses to represent itself can't be changed? In my experience with dream guides, my subconscious uses more than one representation.

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Yes. Maybe I put too much emphasis on the abstraction. "The Theater" is my metaphor, but it plays out in diverse yet clearly identifiable examples. For example, any time a DC says something ironic or comical that makes me laugh, that's a tip-off that I'm in a parable and I should pay attention to symbolism for the guide's message. I also have a gang of recurring characters ("The Players") who, within the metaphor, are the actors that participate in the theater. When any of them appears, I know the guide is at work. It is most clear when a DG appears as a consistent character. But it may be something more subtle: a wink, a gesture, a trope. Something that recalls the rapport with the guide and clues you in.

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Originally Posted by Spock

Hmmm, my imagination is good and all, but not that good to give my 'visualized characters' their own freedom of thought, like DCs have... I think that they will just say what I would visualize them to say (on a conscious level) - so I can't possibly get a "honest response". That would require a much deeper state than I can reach in waking.

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I relate to this as well. I think the most powerful tool here is to ask questions. (Not just in dreams, but in life. I digress.) Ask a DC an open-ended question, especially one that is deliberately vague. For example: "Can you show me the way?" Or: "What happens next?" These are the kinds of questions that provoke your unconscious to find something that is both new and meaningful. The result may be silly or cryptic. You might not understand it in the moment of the dream. But in recall and reflection, you might see it differently, setting up further exploration in future dreams.

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Originally Posted by RelaxAndDream

ah a physicist :)

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Is it that obvious? XD

Thank you both for the advice!
I really focused on this goal for the last couple of days, but other than that had less time to practice than usual... So still no lucid success with the guide.
But the guide's form I chose appeared in the night of the 19th in a long non-lucid. I was very detailed and had many characters, mainly based in the Daredevil universe (inspired by watching the new season) - so most Daredevil characters were there as well as my family members, and Richard Castle for some weird reason (probably a play of associations on Frank Castle). Apart from him, the dream guide was the only DC that is not related to that universe or my circles - so this makes me think that what I'm doing must be slowly working...
And this night (20th) I'm pretty sure I remember a fragment with the synthetic DG too - but I had like 7 other full dreams to recall so I can't recall more about her appearance there... Maybe my memory is just playing tricks on me this case...

Are you familiar at all with the idea of servitors? An intentionally created dream guide sounds like a type of servitor. You might want to look up more information about servitors and how to create them.

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Originally Posted by Spock

Ahh, I see what you mean now... Well, I think my user name makes it fairly likely that I'm not a religious person and wouldn't be considered spiritual in the common sense... ;)
But to me this seems to be a matter of interpretation, really. Whether one thinks that a DG is an actual spiritual other-worldly being or simply a mentor figure influenced by RL experience, it isn't like these are two distinct types but rather distinct interpretations of the same phenomenon. That's how it seems at least to me. I mean, one could argue that the being behind the "image" of Sivason in your dream is some sort of a spiritual being as well, just hiding behind a face you'll see as appropriate. Either way, to me a dream guide is a DC that is either more lucid or more in control than your own dream self, sometimes a reoccurring character (both interpretations fit in this definition).

To me the question is, is it possible to make an artificial character that is persistent and that "important" to your subconscious, that it will become a DG? If it's achievable (or more specifically, achievable for me), I agree - I see no reason for it to function any differently from a spontaneous DG. :)

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You're right that it's a matter of interpretation, for me I call them spirit guides. I belive we have more than one of them, and they act on certain life issues. They can communicate in many ways I.E dreaming.this is an interesting topic!

An update:
Two days ago I did the dream guide TOTM and asked my DG to show up. It was in the form of a large talking python, and we had a very interesting conversation. I asked him to show up next time as the DG I wanted to appear - we'll see if it works...

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Originally Posted by Intet

Are you familiar at all with the idea of servitors?

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No, from googling the term online it sounds like a servant of some sort... Is this it?
A dream guide would fill the role of a mentor, so I'm sure if it's it... And couldn't find more info online.

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Originally Posted by Spock

No, from googling the term online it sounds like a servant of some sort... Is this it?
A dream guide would fill the role of a mentor, so I'm sure if it's it... And couldn't find more info online.

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"Servitor" is a term from occultism that refers to an entity created to fulfill a specific task. There's a lot of debate among occultists about what exactly they are -- whether they're spirits with independent existence or just parts of magicians' minds -- but the practices that involve them are the same either way. When one creates a servitor, one typically gives it a task, a name, an appearance, and a personality (but not too much of a personality) in some sort of ritual. For example, I've made a dream recall servitor who looks like a little man sitting on a cloud and writing in a notebook and who pays close attention to detail. What exactly the servitor creation ritual involves can vary widely depending on what you want the servitor to do and what you think will work best for you, but what's most important is setting your intention in a clear and memorable way. You'll want to include elements in your ritual that have symbolic significance related to your intention and make the ritual feel like a significant act.