Visual, Audio And Movement Wild

i have came up with a WILD that with a simple techinque involving Visual, Audio and Movement you can pass through the transition phase into dream with ease.

Audio is one of the most improtant thing to keep you conscious during this phase all you have to do is have a music without words in your head e.g. house, techno classical music e.t.c. when your creating beethoven moonlight sonate in your head it pretty hard just to fall asleep and it not as boring as counting.

Visual controlling the imagination is the key to hypnogogic images this is done by thinking and questionning with picture this mean when you think about something like fighting you might imagine the matrix and then think why the matrix and then see a big glowing cool sign. basically pick something to think about and then turn of verbal thought and try to express it thought picture like a game of imaginary sharrades but instead of trying to show a thing show the idea and then repeat. the realness or quality of this does not matter the point of this is if you do this their going to be stage where you thought goes random e.g. you think about your little brother when you dont have one. when this happen you will move on to last and easiest stage movement.

movement this is the key to lucid dreaming. when your thought turn random or you begin to see even the faintest of hypnogogic stage then this is the time to imagine you are moving your arms toward the image if you do this and start moving toward object even if you think your moving your body when you touch hypnogogic image will be in the dream.

i have had my 2nd and 3rd and 4th ever WILD using this technique last night the movement part came when i was in hypnogogic phase thinking whether i would go to college when i had the idea to grab object then had a false awakening then i tried it two more times and it worked. the audio and visual part are safe guard for the last step it does not matter if you get them perfect all that matter is you do the last step and you will enter dream.

p.s. beware of false awakening because it very realistic so if you find yourself in bed after technique look out of your window to make sure because in two circumstances i could have become lucid to make it 5 WILD in the mouring. their is no need to wake up at 5oclock it work perfectly find at night as it does in mourning all you need to do is remeber when to start moving so you go into dream.

So you can actually do this when going to sleep?

It sounds pretty easy :P

yes and it is easy all you need to do is move to hypnogogic image when they appear or your thought go random see your sleep paralysed then so all movement will be done in mind so when you succead to move you will be in dream all you need to beawear of is false awakening. just try and stick to all three technique to have the most success in going into dream with the last one your aim.

It sounds really cool. I am gonna try it out man :D

How do you come up with such interesting techniques? This one sounds pretty easy, but I think it would be pretty easy to fall asleep, even if you are playing music. I know I've fallen asleep while playing a kickass song in my head.

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Originally Posted by towarmforacoat

How do you come up with such interesting techniques? This one sounds pretty easy, but I think it would be pretty easy to fall asleep, even if you are playing music. I know I've fallen asleep while playing a kickass song in my head.
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So you are just playing the music in your head or are you actually having music playing in the background?

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Originally Posted by Stiffy

So you are just playing the music in your head or are you actually having music playing in the background? [/b]

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I thought I had made it clear enough, but apparently I didn't. Sorry.
I "imagine" the music.

Nice!
Im guessing this is with WBTB?
uh seems to me im in the hypnagogic state instantly
returning to bed after 5-15 min... or is that not possible?

When going to bed normally after 5-10min or so I have
random thoughts and I hear noises and voices saying
the craziest things.is that hypnagogic stuff?

Why techno without words?

How do you tell when to switch from audio to video, then physical?
Thanks!

its possible . it happened to me last month i had music on while a sleep than in my lucid dream i was able to hear it like a backround .

it is very strange tho.

the audio is just to keep you awake intill hypnogogic images appear or thought turn random.

i should clear up a thing on visualization this is done to loose track of time which is common in picture thinkers and when you are thinking in picture hypnogogic images are more likely to appear and your body will more likely be paralysed and if your thinking about something it easy to spot when thought turn random.
questioning yourself with picture on a subject is mind favourite to see hypnogogic images as you are thinking. no verbal thought is allowed because this is a huge hint that thought have turn random .

when hypnogogic images appear this is when you start to move this will be weird you have to aim of moving your hand to the object like you would grab something in real life. imagine you hands were tied down and you wanted to grab a apple you can imagine moving forward and moving you hands like your actually doing it with practice this will become very easy and more you do it the more it will become like a muscle reflex into your dream.

p.s. i suggest that you try this at night because your more connected with your body this will force your brain to change so it become really easy and it has a knock on effect for all dreams and if done correctly their will be a point at beginning of dream that is very vivid and you are very lucid that can be lost in the mourning. WBTB it a good technique but it can be a problem because the movement you want is like your normal body this is lost when you do this because your very relaxed that is unnatural to movement.

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random thoughts and I hear noises and voices saying
the craziest things.is that hypnagogic stuff[/b]

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yes this is hypnogogic stuff when this occur you should start to moving toward it

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Why techno without words?[/b]

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this is because when thought turn random verbal langauge is a big give away so if your imagining music with word it sometime hard to tell them apart.

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How do you tell when to switch from audio to video, then physical?[/b]

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you start with audio and video and when thought turn random or you see hypnogogic then move toward the source and then grab the thing.

Hi Becomingagodo:

This is truly excellent. Do you think your technique can be used for daytime WILDs? The big problem many people have is that they are unable to stay awake long enough for nocturnal WILDs. Instead of using a music audio, another possibility may be to listen to a voice file containing LD suggestions.

good question about daytime WILD it is possible but it will be very hard because you need to hypnogogic images to make it work. you misunderstood the audio bit you dont physically listen to music you imagine listening to music like when you hum a tune in your head when you do this is very difficult to just drop off.

Does this work when first going to bed?
Like you dont have to wake up 6 hours later?

I tried last night, but with verbal thought.
I see what you mean by just observing and not verbally
thinking about the HI, I think that might be where I failed.

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this is because when thought turn random verbal langauge is a big give away so if your imagining music with word it sometime hard to tell them apart.[/b]

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Im not sure what you meant by "a big give away". And what do you mean by "hard to tell them apart"?
By "a big give away" do you mean it keeps you from HI?
Do you mean with wordless music that you cant tell how long you've been thinking it?

The initial post is a little tricky to read, but seems like a really good tecnique. :)

Sorry if english isn't your native language; maybe im just not understanding for some reason.
Anyone who understands this please feel free to explain it to me.

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Does this work when first going to bed?
Like you dont have to wake up 6 hours later?[/b]

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yes it does work when first going to bed and is better if you do this then instead of waking up 6 hours later.

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I tried last night, but with verbal thought.
I see what you mean by just observing and not verbally
thinking about the HI, I think that might be where I failed.[/b]

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the verbal thought issue comes from the fact that it very easy to drop off and miss HI like you did then.

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Im not sure what you meant by "a big give away". And what do you mean by "hard to tell them apart"?By "a big give away" do you mean it keeps you from HI?
Do you mean with wordless music that you cant tell how long you've been thinking it?[/b]

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a big give away is that when going to sleep their a stage just before entering dream where verbal thought get messed up if your thinking verbally you are likely to miss this. it does keep you from HI because the area of brain associated with language switch when near HI. the music is not about that it about keeping you up to HI appear because it not verbal their no giant switch and since your thinking about the music your still conscious of sound.
the main point of this technique is getting to the point of HI and imagine then moving your body i.e. arm to touch this if you do this correctly you will be in the dream if you fail quickly check the room and try again HI will appear very quick and just repeat intill successful.

p.s. when trying this if their trouble getting to HI then listen to wordless music in the dark in bed for 30 minuate and just imagine what the music would look like then when 30 minuate are up just play back the song in your head and start the visualization technique and when HI appear move on to movement technique. also you have to think about visualization and audio i.e. you have to think for this to work.
when i mean visualization i mean like day dreaming with audio so you will not fully fall asleep

for people who do not understand this technique i will three example of me using it

i start by imaging playing beethoven moonlight sonate in my head i then turn of all verbal thought and then i begin to visualize what is genius daydreaming famous people the works of leonardo da vinci i do this by imaging the picture as firework going off and i am controlling them. then because i visualizing and thinking about something time become weird it seem to jump ( it help to not think linear or in a straight line and if you cant remeber what you just did this is a good sign) then after some time a t.v. appear in front of me surrounded by nothing and then i imagine moving my hand toward it and see my arm and now i am in dream that is my bed false awakening occur.

this is in mouring so i just done some basic daydreaming about the subject of what is reality then i see funny mathmatical tiles in front of me then i grab like i would a normal object and i am in the dream and the tiles feel like clay and i can move them fine i then move out of house look around everything very real but then i move to go out and wake up.

when i woke up from last dream i quickly do the above again by loosely daydreaming on movement or what is movement the HI appear very quickly i go to move my hand to touch them and end up in dream.

When I do WBTB I can easily get HI to appear actually. I often fall asleep pretty fast though, so I need something to keep me awake. That could be the music stuff for example.
Anyway though, I tried your technique when going to bed, and I don't remember much. I imagined some piano music and then my thoughts got a bit random. After atleast 3 minuts, I fell into a deep sleep. I am gonna try again tonight :)

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I tried your technique when going to bed, and I don't remember much. I imagined some piano music and then my thoughts got a bit random. After atleast 3 minuts, I fell into a deep sleep.[/b]

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when your thought turn random to avoid falling asleep try to imagine your moving your body e.g. your arm if you do this like you would actully move your arm then two thing might happen you might move your arm in real life or move your arm in a dream when you get to this stage tonight try imagining you are moving your arm in real life 1. it will stop you falling asleep and 2. it will bound to work at some stage so you are in the dream.

p.s. when i mean move your arm i mean like you would move your arm in real if you do this successfully or unsucessfully it will train your mind to enter a dream like you would flex your own muscle. also your sleep paralysed so it more likely you will move in dream.

To be honest, I've been in real sleep paralysis. I've only been in that stage, where you think "I'm paralyzed!" and then you move something and the attempt is spoiled :P

Say, how do I want to do? Should I actually try to do a physical move, or just imaging the feeling of my arm moving? No offence man, but your english is a bit rusty hehe :)

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Say, how do I want to do? Should I actually try to do a physical move, or just imaging the feeling of my arm moving?[/b]

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you just imagine the feeling of arm moving toward something. it very hard to describe the correct way of doing this but if you try it a couple of times it will work.

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To be honest, I've been in real sleep paralysis. I've only been in that stage, where you think "I'm paralyzed!" and then you move something and the attempt is spoiled[/b]

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it does not matter if your actually paralyzed you just need to be neer the stage of HI. the attempt is never spoiled if you move physically unless you start using verbal thought like damn i failed e.t.c. if you physically move your hand just put your hand down focus on imaging music playing and possible on imaging moving your hand then just start again it will take about 2 minuate to get back to HI so you can make another attempt.

p.s. when i tried my attempt at this last night i failed twice because i actually lifted my hand up. however i did succead then but five minuate later a big flash happen and i lost lucidity i was going around the dream as usual but then i had a false awakening where i gained back most lucidity however their was a giant bird in front me that was so scary i just froze for 5 minaute then i started throwing stuff at it. soon it disappear but then was replaced by doctor who plastic men and everything was coming alive at the end i ran down stairs and woke up this was my second only nightmare of my life im pretty sure i would have become lucid if i was not scared witless.

lol its always a post like this i read before i try and lucid dream... just puts you off ay lol

Okay, I tried again tonight, but I didn't really manage to get into any state and no HI whatsoever.

During the WBTB I fell asleep before I even tried xD

the problem might be to do with relaxation of body you dont focus on your body or you will mess this up also you dont think verbally or your mess it up and also dont worry getting to a state of HI you just have to wait to your thought turn random then imagine moving toward that.

p.s. when i mean thought go random it when someone talking in your head and you start to believe if you move then it will wake you up but if you quickly carry on you willl be neer HI and if thought turn random repeat again Marvo you proberly failed this because your inabillity to move.

I have been in that state actually, where I think I imagine a friend, and it's almost like an HI, but I can clearly hear his voice, like if he was in the actual room. Sometimes that sort of HS is scary. First I thought I was skizo and stuff, but I recognized it was HS pretty fast. The funnny thing is, that the voices are saying stuff that my mind makes up. A few times I've almost had an HI of one of my friends too. I'll keep trying man :)

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I have been in that state actually, where I think I imagine a friend, and it's almost like an HI, but I can clearly hear his voice, like if he was in the actual room. Sometimes that sort of HS is scary[/b]

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before you fall asleep you body goes throught this if you use no verbal thought you can easily pick this out and when this occur all you have to do is try and move toward it by moving your hand to where the voices are coming from if you do this you will get strong HI where you can imagine moving your hand toward the objects.

Yeah, that Hypnogagic stage sometimes weirds me out.
I can see and hear people saying things the never said,
and they sound and look EXACTLY how they do in real life.

So with my attempts (WILD too) so far, actually its sometimes hard for me to remember what
I do, but my usual downfall is I hardly ever loose touch with my body; that is,
I ALWAYS know that if I try moving my arm, it will move physically.

I guess I should just imaging the music more? I just usually have trouble dropping
out right after the mild HI, as I go to sleep pretty quick. I hope the music thing helps
keep me awake till I get totally immersed in the HI to do the object grab.

These direct entry techniques are really weird in how you lose track of time.
Its such a weird feeling being totally unaware of time passing.
anyone have that happen?

I tried again last evening, and I think I did some good process. Despite that I didn't fall asleep, I got pretty fast into a very very relaxed state. I believe that if I keep doing this, I will eventually succeed :)

Also, I think I got some very extremely low HIs.

How long do you imagine the music?
I don't know when to stop imagining the music,
and to start the visual or picture thinking stage.

What exactly does the thinking in pictures stage do?
Is it possible to move straight from imagining music to
HI? (such as seeing a someone you know talk and hearing it
I do notice this stage when going to bed normally.)
It seems thats what happens to me, and I have no idea how
to work in the thinking in pictures.

And then once you see some HI picture, and or hear sound,
you move your arm like you would in real life?

Wow I can't imagine what that would feel like. I always am sure I'll move
my arm in real life.

well if you want HI to appear easily just imagine moving your hand straight when you go to sleep and just imagine music then HI will appear like your watching t.v. and if you carry on it will turn 3D and then your hand will appear in the HI and you will be in the dream.
just concentrate on pretending or imagining moving your hand when you go to sleep and you will see HI very easily and lightly imagine music.

Ahh I see, you didn't really point that out in the first posts ;)

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Ahh I see, you didn't really point that out in the first posts[/b]

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yes but only found out today how to produce HI very quickly their only now need for music and movement.
p.s. when you do the movement visualization just lay in bed from the start of going to sleep and imagine that you are moving your arms and then HI will appear and just carry on with visualization of moving arm however try to make imagine hand grab HI. also forget your normal body do not concentrate on this i.e. dont relax yourself your body will relax naturally when you do this method. very improtant when HI appear just concentrate on touching it and movement which you should increase dont just abandon technique when HI appear this will make you fail it.

Hmm I tried moving my like I would in real life last night,
but whenever I see the HI, then decide to move my arm,
I get this 'woosh' :P feeling kinda like coming out of water,
then im too aware, and I move in real life.

Yeah that changes the whole approach. Maybe for new readers
you might consider revising the initial post.

Pardon my touble understanding your sentence structure,
but this is the way I see it:
Imagine music in the back of your head, while imagining
moving your hand forward. when HI comes, your hand will appear
in 2d, then 3d, with the progression of the HI.

thats what I get from your last post, but where does the 2nd stage come in?
Is the 2nd stage only turning off verbal thought?

With each post, you seem that your excluding stage 2 even more.

that because i have changed my idea to make it possible their is no 2nd stage you turn of verbal thought at the beginning all you have to do is imagine playing music and moving your arm. also try to only imagine not move physically it has to feel like normal movement but if you imagine moving from the beginning then theirs no problem. you have to start this straight away when going to sleep.

Ahh, thanks for clearing it up. I was getting confused between the
two different ideas.

So you imagine the music and imagine moving your arm.
The music will keep you awake until the HI is 3D and you
can move your arm in it. Correct?

And I suppose that imagining moving your arm from the start
will keep you from pulling yourself out of HI? Seems right because
I was like (without verbal thought) 'oh, Im getting HI. Ill try moving my arm.'
Then all of a sudden, no more HI. I'm guessing imagining from
the start will be like 'oh, HI. woah, theres my arm.'

lol thats weird.. thinking without words.

This time for sure! :P

yes that is correct eggbert however when HI comes you have to increase level of imaging of movement kind off like speed it up and really imagine grabbing HI because when HI appear it best if you have more control of movement of dream body so really imagine

Okay man, that sounds really cool. I will keep trying. Let's work this stuff out and ask an admin to make a locked stickey in the tutorial section. This stuff seems to work. I guess.

Goodnight for now though :P

it worked again last night i imagine when i went to bed that i was moving my hand and listening to music when them HI appeared i could physically touch it and move it around.

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Okay man, that sounds really cool. I will keep trying. Let's work this stuff out and ask an admin to make a locked stickey in the tutorial section. This stuff seems to work. I guess.[/b]

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i think the technique failing because of lack of imaging movement of arms when going to bed. or it could be because of imaging music poorly. you are right for waiting to ask admin to make a stickey in the tutorial section it will be good if two people could do this method reliabily because i not that good at explaining stuff clearly. im sure you will get it because this has only work good the day i first write this and today and only because yesterday i found the thing i was missing.

p.s. i had my fifth lucid dream using this technique i was imaging hannible opera song however when i passed transition HI into dream i found my self in a prison like the one in silence of the lamb but more claustrophobic it was so sad that purposly lost lucidity which i did not regain in the other dream i had. althought in the mourning i had better lucid dream.

lol good to see it actually works.
I need to find a good electronic or classical song without words, though.
I've been trying this every night since reading about it, and I'll get it eventually!:)
Its really hard to imagine the music, and imagine moving your arm. I usually start forgetting one or the other. It might help to get some really catchy music.
I guess ill grab an mp3 of the moonlight sonate and see how that one works.

I see how imagining moving your arm makes HI, sorta. Its like I'll imagine moving
my arm, then i'll see my arm against a black background, then a scene will appear
behind it.
What songs have worked for you?
Do you imagine moving your whole arm? or just your hand? swinging? waving? does it matter?

Hopefully i'll have more luck tonight!

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Do you imagine moving your whole arm? or just your hand? swinging? waving? does it matter?[/b]

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it best to imagine whole arm moving in front of you it doesnt really matter what action you do with hand it just need to be constantly moving or you will fail the technique.

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What songs have worked for you?[/b]

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imagining the musics is not that important then imaging movement however if you most know moonlight, vide cor meum http://stuff.ubersite.com/1139438794857940...0Cor%20Meum.mp3 and motzart K459

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Its really hard to imagine the music, and imagine moving your arm. I usually start forgetting one or the other. [/b]

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it may seem hard but it will get easier it just practice imaging moving body which comes easy to me because i am very good at drawing and painting and being good at chess helps to. you could practice imagining moving object before you go to sleep. it helps to do this straight when going to bed quickly lay down intill comfortable then do this and remeber dont try to relax your body or mind just go straight to the method. if you keep on imaging movement then sooner or later HI will appear which you can touch. if their time in this method your not imaging yourself moving your arms you have failed.

p.s. maybe your imaging differently from me i when mean imagine your touching something i dont mean visuallize your hand in front of you touching it i mean more of the feeling of movement you have to feel like your moving your hands e.g. touch your screen or another object i dont want you to visualize yor hand and the action it take i want it so you can actually feel the act of movement. i should have describe it better but the imaging i want is not of visualizing your arm and it moving it more of the feeling of moving your like how you would move your arm in real life you dont imagine a picture of your arm doing the action to move you just move this is what you have to try and recreate. also you dont have to picture arm or hand if you do it correctly it will come during HI.

Sorry to jump in late here...but I'm interested in what was said on page one.

You said this technique can be performed from the beginning of your nighttime sleep, not towards the end. Wouldn't this be a less-desireable phase to enter? I mean, since you are not in REM, wouldn't the vividness be less and possibilities much shorter?

Just curious about how well the "beginning" phase of sleep would work with this instead of the end.

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You said this technique can be performed from the beginning of your nighttime sleep, not towards the end. Wouldn't this be a less-desireable phase to enter? I mean, since you are not in REM, wouldn't the vividness be less and possibilities much shorter?[/b]

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see your going on a myth i can get the article to prove it from a medical and psychology website that you only dream in REM phase.

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Just curious about how well the "beginning" phase of sleep would work with this instead of the end.[/b]

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it basically the same vividness in dream is the same at night then mourning the only reason i do it at night instead of mourning is that you want the most of dreams.

I think I get the basic idea.. Just imagine, keep moving and just concentrate how it feels.
I was getting some tingling sensations in my arm last night, but I dont think I concentrated on the feeling enough.

What does being good at chess have to do with this? :huh2:

although it was an abnormally hot day here and I was too hot,
which gave me trouble sleeping regularly. :undecided:

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I think I get the basic idea.. Just imagine, keep moving and just concentrate how it feels.
I was getting some tingling sensations in my arm last night, but I dont think I concentrated on the feeling enough.[/b]

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dont pay any attension to your body this will make you fail. make sure your consciously in control of your imaginary body. if it feels like you are really moving your arms and you are consciously in control of them it will work. also you have to distance yourself from your real body by only concentrating on imaging movement of arms if you notice your real body your doing it wrong. see your real body should not exsist for you to pass into dream you have dissociated your body from dream body once you done that you natural body relaxes and goes to sleep and the HI appears where just have to feel yourself physically grab it by moving like you would do in real life.

p.s. when you get tingling sensation this is a good sign but you have to concentrate more on imaginary movement then on physical body if you do this then HI is just neer and then dream. also this happen to me two night ago if you imagine moving and feel your arm moving and forget body then it will work.

In reference to your earlier response; I didn't think REM promoting the most vivid, longest dreams was a myth...?

I understand that you CAN do it from the beginning stages of sleep, I'm just asking - if you had your choice, wouldn't the "better" experiences come from an awakening in the early hours into REM and doing this method if you possibly can?

If you can achieve vivid lengthy dreams with this method from the early initial sleep states, I'm not calling you a liar. I'd actually be much happier to have it work this way. I just thought that science has proved otherwise with the whole REM phase we all tend to know about. I thought true vivid dreams could actually only occur in this stage of sleep.

So again, mainy confused about the comparing of these two time period's dreams while using the methods described here.

I'm going to try right now on my dinner nap.

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I understand that you CAN do it from the beginning stages of sleep, I'm just asking - if you had your choice, wouldn't the "better" experiences come from an awakening in the early hours into REM and doing this method if you possibly can?[/b]

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it depend what you mean better all my vivid dream occur when going to sleep at night. plus the technique your describing is the lazy man method their no real advantage if just put in the same amount of effort at night and the right technique ti become lucid.

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If you can achieve vivid lengthy dreams with this method from the early initial sleep states, I'm not calling you a liar. I'd actually be much happier to have it work this way. I just thought that science has proved otherwise with the whole REM phase we all tend to know about. I thought true vivid dreams could actually only occur in this stage of sleep.[/b]

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no science has not proven you dont dream in NREM stages in dream their was a experiment that look for NREM brainwaves woke them up and they could remeber. their is a forgetting mechanism of your brain that if dont think it very hard to remeber something it like looking at this piece of writing you have seen it but if you dont read this you will forget well with normal memory you will. lucid dreaming comes form your front of brain and dreaming comes from back their no fuction that i know that stop you having conscious thought when dreaming.

Nice writeup! I use something similar to this technique. If anyone is having trouble with the "movement" part, try something that you have a lot of practise with. Established neural pathways make movement easier (muscle memory), and I'd be willing to bet that they make imagining movement easier too. I do a lot of martial arts so that works well for me. Playing an instrument, dancing, anything you're good at doing will be easier to imagine.

I also find that when you're imagining movement and you get to a stage that you can start to feel it, exaggerated movements help more than subtle. So, if you're imagining playing guitar and start to feel it get realer - it's probably time to start bashing it into stuff or waving it around violently =D. Stuff like slapping yourself in the face a lot works sometimes too. The more sensation you can get the better.

Anyway, hope I've been helpful

-spoon

just a question: How detailed does the HI have to be before u move toward it? I only ever see splotches of color or waves of color. should i try moving toward those? cause those start to appeare within 10 min of me wilding.

Well another failure.
I've never had a real LD so its no big surprise.

So I got in bed imagined the moonlight sonata, and moving my arm up
and down. Many times i'd start to feel tingly, and concentrate on my body.
I think this is from previously trying WILD, where concentrating on your body is the main goal. I would notice feeling tingly, then I get that odd feeling like coming out of water, and the HI's gone.

I'm not sure if this was the right thing to do, but when the HI came (not too vivid) I began to slap all the random things that I saw. I sorta felt and imagined the feeling and sound; Like there was some of that concrete/marble stuff they have on historic buildings, I gave it a slap and I was half imagining and half feeling as well as hearing the distinct sound. I then realised the HI wasn't too vivid, and I wasn't sure if I was supposed to be touching the HI yet, but then I woke up 5hrs later just then realizing I fell asleep.

Was I on the right course? Slapping the things seemed like the wrong thing to do at the time, for some odd reason.

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Originally Posted by becomingagodo

it depend what you mean better all my vivid dream occur when going to sleep at night. plus the technique your describing is the lazy man method their no real advantage if just put in the same amount of effort at night and the right technique ti become lucid.

no science has not proven you dont dream in NREM stages in dream their was a experiment that look for NREM brainwaves woke them up and they could remeber. their is a forgetting mechanism of your brain that if dont think it very hard to remeber something it like looking at this piece of writing you have seen it but if you dont read this you will forget well with normal memory you will. lucid dreaming comes form your front of brain and dreaming comes from back their no fuction that i know that stop you having conscious thought when dreaming.
[/b]

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Sorry to jump in again after a question but, maybe you're not understanding me completely...so I'll ask this a very simple way.

Now we know that during our REM beta wave period, longest continued dreams are realized. Correct?

And (I thought) we also knew that, even though we may not remember them completely, the stages of sleep towards the beginning permit shorter dream periods. Correct?

So in conclusion I pose my question:

If a lucid is entered in the short periods of NREM, couldn't it be assumed that the dream would have much limited length?

With this limited dream length, couldn't it also be assumed lucidity will be lost in the NREM period?

If the same method is used to enter lucidity during REM, couldn't it be assumed the lucid dream(s) will have a continuance of longer than the dreams entered during the NREM?

Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just trying to gather info on a seemingly apparent descrepancy in my mind. I'd like to know the answer to this, since you are saying you do have vivid dreams in the early NREM periods. I'm still doing a lot of reading, but if you can get 30-45 minute dreams in your early NREM periods, I am dumbfounded; as this throws what I have been taught to believe around here in the garbage.

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Well another failure.
I've never had a real LD so its no big surprise.

So I got in bed imagined the moonlight sonata, and moving my arm up
and down. Many times i'd start to feel tingly, and concentrate on my body.
I think this is from previously trying WILD, where concentrating on your body is the main goal. I would notice feeling tingly, then I get that odd feeling like coming out of water, and the HI's gone.

I'm not sure if this was the right thing to do, but when the HI came (not too vivid) I began to slap all the random things that I saw. I sorta felt and imagined the feeling and sound; Like there was some of that concrete/marble stuff they have on historic buildings, I gave it a slap and I was half imagining and half feeling as well as hearing the distinct sound. I then realised the HI wasn't too vivid, and I wasn't sure if I was supposed to be touching the HI yet, but then I woke up 5hrs later just then realizing I fell asleep.

Was I on the right course? Slapping the things seemed like the wrong thing to do at the time, for some odd reason.[/b]

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you are on the right course however dont slap it to extreme instead try to touch it or just move your hand toward it. dont care about vividness of HI if you keep moving and touching it soon it will become realer. when HI appear just touch it straight away. try to remeber that when HI appear all you need to do is imagine the feeling of movement and then trying to touch it dont worry about vivids just imagine moving toward any object that you see.

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Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just trying to gather info on a seemingly apparent descrepancy in my mind. I'd like to know the answer to this, since you are saying you do have vivid dreams in the early NREM periods. I'm still doing a lot of reading, but if you can get 30-45 minute dreams in your early NREM periods, I am dumbfounded; as this throws what I have been taught to believe around here in the garbage.[/b]

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dont worry but yes we do have early vivid dreams and they are continueous throught the night it just a myth like we have a subconscious mind.

So why movement, and not just feeling or slapping things?
Slapping the concrete seemed more natural, and it also has sound.

Have you tried without imagining any music at all?
I usually end up only imagining the music for like a minute.

How long do you usually imagine the music?
How long till you get HI?
I get HI within a few minutes, and asleep in about 5-10 minutes.
For my HI, usually I start with hearing something; and last night
I heard It while sitting up in bed with my eyes partially open!

I think it would be helpful to trade our sleep specs. hehe

I seem to keep falling asleep, however, this night I got into a very weird state. Suddenly I just got such a 'feeling' like I was flying. I tried to stay in it, and I think I was in it for 1 minute. It was very weird, though I didn't see any HI.

I'll keep trying :)

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So why movement, and not just feeling or slapping things?
Slapping the concrete seemed more natural, and it also has sound.

Have you tried without imagining any music at all?
I usually end up only imagining the music for like a minute.

How long do you usually imagine the music?
How long till you get HI?
I get HI within a few minutes, and asleep in about 5-10 minutes.
For my HI, usually I start with hearing something; and last night
I heard It while sitting up in bed with my eyes partially open!

I think it would be helpful to trade our sleep specs. hehe[/b]

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i have tried it without music if you fall asleep usally then you should use it. well i imagine music all thorught it from the beginning of going to sleep. i get HI about that long. slapping something seem to violate and hard to control with your body that why.

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I seem to keep falling asleep, however, this night I got into a very weird state. Suddenly I just got such a 'feeling' like I was flying. I tried to stay in it, and I think I was in it for 1 minute. It was very weird, though I didn't see any HI.

I'll keep trying [/b]

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yes i have been in a state like this when doing the method but instead of flying i was falling if you start imagining moving with it or against the sensation of movement i will stabillize. if you getting this it mean you were very close to entering dream.

Ya, its really hard not to fall asleep. I don't even notice.
Next thing I know its morning. I've been trying this every night
and I will keep doing it! Right as I lay down to go to sleep, I see
random objects, and so I touch them and I try to keep concentrated
but whenever I concentrate on the HI I can't remeber to imagine the
music, and fall asleep.
I'm going to find a nice long catchy classical or techno song.
What other songs do you use becomingagodo? your link didnt work...

if you are having such a hard time imagining music in HI just try the technique without it. also remeber to imagine moving your arms before you see the HI also dont try on concentrate on HI hard just concentrate on moving your arms to touch HI.

if you are still having trouble lucid dreaming i have made the technique more easy. you can imagine music but this is not improtant anymore you should only imagine yourself floating forward into HI. you should start the feeling of floating forward when you begin sleeping and when HI appear you should feel yourself floating toward it into you can touch it and then try to ground yourself in dream by putting your feet on the ground and then touch object with your arms if this does not work repeat again. soon it will work and you would be in dream.

I think that might be hard to to imagine as I havn't ever floated...
But I'll give it a try!!

My HI never appears far off.. It always seems i'm right there next to it.
Is it like your floating towards a picture of HI,
or is it like your in an HI scene, and your just floating around?
hehe I know this is really hard to explain.:content:

What about imagining stomping your foot? Its a well known feeling, and
easier to imaging than floating or waving your arm, as I walk more than
float or wave my arm...

I tried last night imagining floating around my house, while imagining music,
but I coudn't get to sleep doing that.

Could you please make a rewrite of the guide because of all the
changes to the technique you made.
I am not very sure how to do this now.

My main questions:

Music:
Imagine it? yes? no?
How long do you imagine it?
How do you tell when to stop?

Movement:
Floating: Do you imagine yourself doing something like
floating around your house? or do you imagine an object
surrounded by black and floating towards it?
Waving Arm: Do you imagine what it would feel like
to move your arm, or do you actually do what you would
to physically move your arm?
Touching object:
For my HI, usually I half see black, and half see an image.
I can manipulate these images pretty easily, but I think that keeps
me awake. Do you imagine touching something right from the start?
Or do you wait untill the HI is really thick and then touch?
How do you tell when to touch the HI?


Thanks! Theres no sense trying if i'm not doing it right :wink:

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I tried last night imagining floating around my house, while imagining music,
but I coudn't get to sleep doing that.[/b]

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i had the same problem last night

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Could you please make a rewrite of the guide because of all the
changes to the technique you made.
I am not very sure how to do this now.[/b]

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i will do another post with the title the new visual,audio and movement WILD aftert i solve on problem and make it fool proof.my computer broke so it might take a few days. just stick to a method of this technique that gives you most reward untill i write new post. i think i know what going wrong so just wait.

Hi Eggbert, Becomingagodo:

It seems that there is some confusion regarding HI. When you close your eyes in a dark room, you "see" all kinda images resulting from spontaneous retinal discharges. On top of that, you see imagined images. These are not HI. These images can usually be controlled so that you see only what you want to visualize or imagine.

In contrast, genuine HI is spontaneous. You see your regular imagined images, then suddenly something totally unexpected, like a fragment of a dream, momentarily appears. This is HI, actual dream images resulting from the brain momentarily going to sleep. Typically, genuine HI is brighter and more vivid than imagined images.

Eggbert, floating around the house seems to be an good idea. The other thing is simply to patiently observe your regular non-HI images and wait for them to change into genuine HI. Another possibility is VILD, where you visualize yourself in a "dream room" (see tutorial). Becomigagodo's comment that HI is about to appear when thought processes break up is an excellent insight. This is the problem, however, that one tends to drift into the fragmented thoughts and fall asleep unconsciously, rapidly passing through SP and HI into a regular dream. This is an interesting thread and the technique is similar to what I have been working on for several months (without success).

Thanks for the info
Usually right when I lay down to go to sleep,
I see random images, and hear people say random things.
I assume this is HI? I can also imagine floating around my house
but its a little less vivid than the random images, and I cant fall asleep
while making 'fake' HI... So I think i'll try just staying awake by the music,
and when the real random HI gets vivid i'll try to touch it.

hows the technique coming? Any new discoveries?

I done it alot of times now, and I don't seem to get anything out of it. It brings me into a trance, but concentrating on my breath is a better way to get into trance. For me atleast. I'm gonna do some experimenting, like getting up in the night and do the technique. Let's see :)

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Originally Posted by becomingagodo

good question about daytime WILD it is possible but it will be very hard because you need to hypnogogic images to make it work. you misunderstood the audio bit you dont physically listen to music you imagine listening to music like when you hum a tune in your head when you do this is very difficult to just drop off.
[/b]

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I don't see why this should be a trouble at all, you can get HI ay daytime as easily as night, depending on how tired you are.

I can see HI in like 5 mins if i close my eyes ( even if I'm not tired )


I don't see a big diffrence in this technique to ordinary WILD, to enter a dream from WILD is the same thing you actually gotta imagine yourself moving, try to interact with the HI / dreamscapes you see. That's the whole point. This is more of how-to-get-into-a-dream-from-transition-phase. Tutorial more than a " new " WILD technique in my opinion.

I think I will try this tonight.

I may be a little bit of topic but I have a question about the HI. I took an afternoon nap to WILD today. I saw my usual HI that I see when I fall asleep. I am sure this is genuine HI because the images that I see are quite shocking most of the time.

This time to got into HI but then I think they turned into short dreams with sound and vididness I would forget myself at this point as if I was sound asleep. It would last 5 - 10 seconds and then I would remember what I was doing and it would fade I would be more alert.

Am I falling asleep and waking up or is that HI? If that is HI then I never had the chance to move into it because I forgot myself. Also, during all of this I never felt like I was in SP just had a little numbness in my hands and arms. Can you help me straighten this out?

Also, another thing that bothers me is, I get very concious of my mouth. I feel like I need to swallow spit all the time. I try to ignore it but then my mouth feels too full of spit and I think I will choke if I dont swallow. Then after awhile I will get dry mouth. I dont know if any of you notice that but I hate it.

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Originally Posted by sc00by

I don't see why this should be a trouble at all, you can get HI ay daytime as easily as night, depending on how tired you are.

I can see HI in like 5 mins if i close my eyes ( even if I'm not tired )
I don't see a big diffrence in this technique to ordinary WILD, to enter a dream from WILD is the same thing you actually gotta imagine yourself moving, try to interact with the HI / dreamscapes you see. That's the whole point. This is more of how-to-get-into-a-dream-from-transition-phase. Tutorial more than a " new " WILD technique in my opinion.
[/b]

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Except in the day-time it's alot harder to fall asleep and start dreaming.

I do something similar, except I attempt to start HI through memories or fantasies - that way my mind can't drift easily, so I won't be focused on the physical world around me. Eventually my brain takes over and plays the HI for me, and that really lets my mind drift and have SP kick in.

What we really want here is a WILD without WBTB... how do you do it? Does it work?

I tried it last night, but it didn't work... I kept mentally humming Fur Elise, thinking about my grand-grandmother's house in pictures (which was anyway amazing, I had no idea I could remember so many details) and I kept imagining that I was reaching out my hand. But nothing happened. I got bored after about an hour and I rolled on the other side. I think my problem is that I'm not relaxed enough... Any suggestions (except for the 61 point relaxation technique... the picture is too complicated for my poor little over-worked brain...) ?

I fail this WILD but I got 2 DILDs from it and then a non-lucid lucid dream. Wierd. My problem last night was I got uncomfortable on my back so I rolled to my side. I was out in 30secs.

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Originally Posted by Xanous

I think I will try this tonight.

I may be a little bit of topic but I have a question about the HI. I took an afternoon nap to WILD today. I saw my usual HI that I see when I fall asleep. I am sure this is genuine HI because the images that I see are quite shocking most of the time.

This time to got into HI but then I think they turned into short dreams with sound and vididness I would forget myself at this point as if I was sound asleep. It would last 5 - 10 seconds and then I would remember what I was doing and it would fade I would be more alert.

Am I falling asleep and waking up or is that HI? If that is HI then I never had the chance to move into it because I forgot myself. Also, during all of this I never felt like I was in SP just had a little numbness in my hands and arms. Can you help me straighten this out?

Also, another thing that bothers me is, I get very concious of my mouth. I feel like I need to swallow spit all the time. I try to ignore it but then my mouth feels too full of spit and I think I will choke if I dont swallow. Then after awhile I will get dry mouth. I dont know if any of you notice that but I hate it.
[/b]

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Hey, I think your problem is you tried an afternoon WILD. Those are much, much harder to pull off then WBTB, Ive personally never pulled off an afternoon WILD because... well I just cannot fall asleep while taking a nap. I can get very close like you described, I might even start seeing through my eyelids, but the problem is I'll never reach sleep paralysis, or start dreaming. I have an issue with "jolting" while napping. My HI will get very vivid, and my entire will just shudder when I think I am actually there (again because of the lack of sleep paralysis, I actually try to act out a movement during the HI, and my body ends of shuddering snapping me out of it). You should really try WBTB. A little numbness is not sleep paralysis, it's just your body's muscles getting very relaxed. And about your mouth, I've never had a problem with it, the best advice I could give is just try to forget about it. You are to focused on your own body and physical world around you. This could prevent you from reaching sleep paralysis while trying WBTB. Your throat swallowing spit is a natural reaction, and will happen on its own. If you do get overcome with the urge, just swallow the spit and continue, you'll pickup where you left off very soon anyway. It's also much worse lingering on the issue then actually comitting it and moving on in this case.