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I want to go purchase these books; they seems absolutely fascinating. I do have a question, however, for those who've read them:
Does Constenada ever mention if it's possible for a person to learn seeing, without the aid of "magic mushrooms" and such? If so, I want to. :D
definitely, but uh... you'll probably need some old mexican indian brujo to teach youQuote:
Originally Posted by Richter
In his books he describes a person as having a "dreaming" body and a 'physical' body, or something close to the way i'm describing it.
Your brain defines everything that you comprehend and remember, therefore if you were to have a "dreaming body" that left this demension as he describes, it would be impossible to remember.
But then, I wonder who taught the old mexican-indian brujo, eh?
Another mexican-indian brujo...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Richter
And its started out with "sorcorers of antiquity" hehe. They figured it how to "dream" sortof, and then the dreaming emissary people showed up and gave them knowledge in exchange for something you and I would deem equivalent to your soul or your mind.
I guess Carlos Castaneda's wisdom can only be of practical use to those who are allready familiar with such matters and want to learn more.
Reading only a few brief excerpts from his books I allready gained priceless insight into these matters.
The only lesson this book has of any value (at least to me) is that you should enjoy your life, and endeaver into whatever it is that makes you happy, or I suppose a better term is fulfilled.
I have all the books on my shelf. I've just started re-reading them, last time was over 15 years ago and it's amazing how much more I understand now than the last time I read them.
There is an interesting quote in Tales of Power - the 4th book, regarding learning to control your dreams. It basically says that a part of us does everything possible to sabotage our attempts, and our only hope to succeed is to simply persist long enough until it gives up, and we are successful.
It's obviously impossible when you look at life in the concrete image we have of it. Don't even try to use the "western," scientific logic we're used to to say it is impossible. For anything in these books to be believable it's under the assumption that the world we're used to is NOT concrete, that it is more of a symbol for the true nature of the universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
=) You have your point of view. But honestly, why do you think of the western scientific logic as a bad thing? It is what has provided you with everything that is probably usefull in your life today, aside from your social interaction with others. If something impossible happens, which is more likely, something impossible happened...or your just insane?Quote:
Originally Posted by jamous
I think everyone knows the answer to that question.
I have absolutely no problem with "western" scientific logic; I certainly don't think it's a bad thing. I didn't say it was, I'm just saying, IF you are going to try to understand the world of Castaneda you need to drop your idea that the world we live in is concrete. I haven't. I kind of think the universe is pretty much exactly the way we think it is. But what's to say we can trust the way our minds percieve the world by default? I am very quick to question such ideas as manipulating things with your energy body but reading Castaneda also quickly made me question why not. You really got to read the books to understand why I say that though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
Sorry if I'm being a dick D: haha
you really ought to read the first three books though, they're really good.
Actually, I kinda understand what your saying, when I read the art of dreaming there was a passage...it was something like
(paraphrasing here)
"of course this is the real world, but what you have to understand is that other things exist as well"
Or some shit like that lol. It was basically saying that yes normal logic is real, but abnormal logic is as well.
Unfortunately when I think about it I have to disreguard it as false ideal to me, since in order for something else to exist, it would have to have harmonious rules with the reality that we normally percieve, which the rules of the normal reality would deem that it itself could not be coinciding with another =(.
I have read quite a few of these books and feel they have given me a lot. They have helped me to open my perception, be observent without thowing colourful ideas in. I have not experienced "seeing" as he describes it but i am able to "stop the world". While experimenting with different ideas in the art of dreaming i had some very intense lucid dreams.
But really what i think the dreaming was about, was like a training ground for using energy. Learning how our energy moves in a fluid environment without the constraints of our "reality". So when it came time to move energy in the waking world, we would know how to hold it together or make it stretch or jump.
I think the only way you can really understand these books is to experience it yourself. I've honestly never seen the world the same way since reading them. My perceptions have exploded haha.
What I think is "good" about the western scientific way of thinking is the effective, conclusive and constructive nature of scientific investigation.
It's clearmindedness really makes alot possible.
BUT what I think is "bad" about the western way of rationalising is that it excludes anything that cannot be proved using their current standards, equipment and logic; ALOT of things that we as humans all experience can not be explained or revealed in a lab. And the worst, most narrowminded thing about the "western way of rationalising" is that instead of concluding that these are areas of Reality that need further investigation using an open mind and new means of observing & investigating reality, they simply conclude: " Bullshit" and "subjective" and declare it "not true".
For someone to be able to comprehend what Castaneda's saying they need to let go completely of the western way of rationalising cause appearantly it is incomplete and limited in what it can percieve and reveal.
Not to be a superprick, but in order for somebody to comprehend what Castenada's saying, they need to completely let go of any previous way of rationalization...Quote:
For someone to be able to comprehend what Castaneda's saying they need to let go completely of the western way of rationalising cause appearantly it is incomplete and limited in what it can percieve and reveal
Sorry, I just can't understand anti-western thought. Every culture seems to have had it's enlightened ones, but every culture is also close-minded on some level; African, Eastern, Middle-Eastern, and South American cultures included. but meh... my post was :offtopic:
Yeah but it's safe to say that most openminded perspectives come from spiritual, close to nature-living cultures, while the Scientific, Narrowminded perspective is pretty much the Prerogative of "the West".
And by "west" I don't per sé mean the Geographical west, but the Western Cultures and the many nations that live by it.
there cannot be both. For sure. Because western science just simply won't allow for new age/shamanism and whatnot. I sort of think if Castaneda's world is real then it can only be seen and experienced by sorcerers. In which case Westerners like me and you can live in the world we live in and Sorcerers can live in a less concrete reality in the clouds. Who knows, I don't think we really are disagreeing with eachother or anythingQuote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
Thank you! That's what I want to here! You really can't get alot of the books without having experience with SOMETHING to give them some sort of credibility for you. That's why I want to know if anybody has. Annnyway, you "stopped the world"? Describe that!Quote:
Originally Posted by someweirdsin
Well Carlos Castaneda was a Westener and a Naïve one too, but he managed to learn alot of this second reality because he had an open mind and was willing to. :)
I'm about to start reading The teachings of Don Juan. It's currently lying around a friend of mine's house who's started in another book of Castaneda: Journey to Ixtlan.
Now if any Dreamer here has read Castaneda's books and has extracted some usefull practical information on Dreaming that may be of good use to other Dreamers around here: Please share tid bits that might be usefull for us here. :) If need be Scan and post a page, perhaps marking the part you think might be usefull to some of us and wish to share.
Thanx in advance.
1. you're right, you do, but you pretty much are dropping it all when you drop western scientific thoughtQuote:
Originally Posted by Richter
2. I am mostly a westerner (and mostly an agnostic atheist), but I wouldn't say anybody is really being "anti-western thought" here.. Or at least I'm not.
I think the heart of the matter is that Western thought just tends to be closed-minded in that there are just certain things that, to a typical westerner, are regarded as being strictly impossible, like ESP or telepathy. So if you go for the Western way it's just logical that Carlos Castaneda's world is impossible and absurd. But, I think the logic might be more implanted than instinctive. I like to think anything is possible, but to truly appreciate much of Castaneda's work you have to either be super open-minded or have had an experience that showed you that something that the West says is obviously impossible is possible, blowing the whole issue open for you (which I hope happens to me, but until then I'm pretty skeptical of the whole thing).Quote:
Originally Posted by SKA
Agreed.
I second that. In my life time from early childhood I've been experiencing things that SO completely contradict Reality as it has been taught to me by "western rationalism". Seeing Shadowfigures. Black and White human like spirits, feeling sensations that are so unlike any of the emotions known to psychology and feeling unseen precenses.
Also a Magic Mushroom experience is the kind of experience that shows you that you aren't even REMOTELY close to knowing what reality really is. It actually makes you experience things that completely contradict or absolutely disprove Reality as had been taught to you by western rationalism that you're actually forced to comPLETELY reconsider Reality. Experiences like ESP, Telepathy, Moving into an all overseeing, all understanding perspective, the felt presence of "spirits" within much more than just living organisms and a strange, nonmaterial interconnection between litterally everything.
It shows the true presence of the hidden reality behind the scenes of our usual realms of perception: The mere physical reality. It sure makes you reconsider reality and forces you to draw new conclusions about Reality and most importantly: To withdraw your previous conclusions about Reality.
I'm not sure if it was Socrates, Plato or another wiseman who was on to this too and said:
"The only True wisdom is to know you know nothing"
I definitely know what you mean with the mushrooms. There was a point on my first shroom trip where I could not even comprehend the concept of "people" (which I was thinking of more as heads) or even other beings at all. I sat against a fence and was so crushed and in such despair after the realization that my reality was so delicate. I didn't know whether to cry or kill myself so I puked. I literally thought I had died and gone to hell at one point I was so miserable. hahaha bad trip I guess! Sorry I went into that, but it definitely made me question the conceteness of my reality.
Personally I think you need to seek some psychological help if you are seeing things that aren't there... But that much I can let slide on the terms of what I can "for sure" say, however if you think that a mushroom trip has any sort of ability to make you "see" anything. Omg when you are in a drug state of mind you aren't "thinking more clearly" your thinking less clearly...but the things you think about you think are amazing because even the most idiotic stuff you
could come up with sounds important when you are on drugs that make your focus drop, and dont say they don't make your focus drop, because they do.
Btw no problem with drugs here, Me gusta drugs =D
Things that YOU don't recognise being there? ;) Millions of people all around the world experience and percieve millions of things everyday that scientific, rational thought cannot explain; Maybe we need to conclude that Science can't reveal everything and that a huge part of reality is unexplained and unknown to most of mankiind due to this narrow vision of what we believe CAN exist and what Can't. Alot of people get declared psychologically confused and insane while they are really not, simply because we are unwilling to believe and recognise this second part to Reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandform
But this is exactly what Castaneda's books are all about :) Have you read any of em Sandform?