Thread: Carlos Castaneda's Art of Dreaming

anybody?

I've read it, other than getting a look into shamanic/sorcorous theology from south/central american practitoners, it served no use for me. I haven't read all of it though. I am waiting untill school starts so I can have something to read in class while I don't feel like listening to the dribble jabber of teachers who fail to teach anything anyway. =D

I also own his book about "seeing" I left it in my car so I don't recall its name, but it goes into detail about how he had originally only found Don Juan (as he called him) due to the fact that this shamanic man had supposedly been an expert on the type of hallucinagenic cactus he was researching.

Originally Posted by Sandform

I also own his book about "seeing" I left it in my car so I don't recall its name, but it goes into detail about how he had originally only found Don Juan (as he called him) due to the fact that this shamanic man had supposedly been an expert on the type of hallucinagenic cactus he was researching.

well that's pretty much the plotline of the series, "seeing" is a factor in all the books. Is it Journey to Ixtlan?

Originally Posted by jamous

well that's pretty much the plotline of the series, "seeing" is a factor in all the books. Is it Journey to Ixtlan?

No its, http://www.amazon.com/Separate-Reali...6549146&sr=8-3 A seperate reality

Originally Posted by Sandform

No its, http://www.amazon.com/Separate-Reali...6549146&sr=8-3 A seperate reality

yes, that's the second in the series, you ought to read the first three and in order. But order isn't necessarily necessary just recommended..

Originally Posted by jamous

I'm currently reading the Art of Dreaming by Castaneda. And I have some questions:
1. Can anybody vouch for the the validity of any of it. Seeing and dreaming? Anybody experience anything like this?
2. Who believes Carlos is a nonfic writer like he says or is a brilliant fantasy writer?
3. Has anybody found any use in the book for "attaining lucidity"? Or anything else pertaining?

1. Seeing is a different type of Vision. Has nothing to do with the physical eyes. It is the way shamans/sorcerers see into the spirit reality that is the realm outside the realm of human perception. It is where the causes of war, famine, disease and prosperity in the human world lie and those that can see into it have great powers knowing how to make it work in their advantage.

Dreaming is also different from just having a Dream. It is a conscious commitment to expand the "shape" and size of your realm of perception in the DreamWorld. Castaneda mentions the 7 gates of dreaming as obstacles to overcome to learn the art of dreaming.

2.It is often debated wether Don Juan is real or not, wether Carlos' journeys were real or not. The thing is; it doesn't matter because the teachings are real and meaningfull nevertheless. Maybe he just chose a fictional way to explain his abstract wisdom of life. When words are hard to find to explain certain abstract things people tend to speak in methaphors that run parallel to reality.

3. The Art of Dreaming describes how shaman expand their realm of perception by conscious dreaming. It's all about lucid dreaming. To consciously overcome the 7 dreamgates and enter an infinite spectrum of realms outside usual human realm of perception.

Well put.
I mean, I'm curious about their technical validity, but in truth, it doesn't make a difference, does it? It's still brilliant and insightful.

Originally Posted by H Savvy

Well put.
I mean, I'm curious about their technical validity, but in truth, it doesn't make a difference, does it? It's still brilliant and insightful.

Well, yes it makes a difference lol... It is still a good read though, as long as you don't believe it word for word...I mean, of course most of the stuff he says probably happened...but as to what he believed happen vs. what actually happened are two very different things =)

Well yeah it is subjective. How can anything written by man not be?
Allthough it is mostly about Castaneda's Experience of Reality, this is the exact point. It's about finding truth in direct experience, not via beliefsystems built by scientists. One of Castaneda's biggest points is that Reality is what you experience, not just a bunch of statistics and physical laws. The western, Scientific view of Reality excloses a humongous part of what Reality really is due to pre-fixed beliefsystems, expectation patterns and pre-assumptions about Reality.

Don Juan teaches Carlos that Reality is unpredictable and that the "Realm of perception" of modern man is serverely limited due to these belief systems and pre-assumptions.The only way to determine the Truth about anything is to let scientists talk and try and experience it for yourself. You'll learn that Truth can only be found in Experience, not facts, numbers and scientific knowledge taught to you by others. You'll have to see everything for yourself to be able to determine what is real and what is not.
Don Juan matte is a man who can see into the pure truth about reality.

He can see outside of the realm of human perception as is these days, without the beliefsystems and pre-assumptions, and observes and uses all these spiritual powers that Science is unable to reveal, prove or disprove. Nevertheless are they real and only Sorcerers like Don Juan can use them as powers since he has an open mind and a strong spirit.

Most people in western societies can't even consider there being any truth in Sorcery and magic. That is because of the Beliefsystems and Pre-assumptions and false, limiting Logics they have been learned since they were a child. Some societies hower promote spiritual groth, shamanism and sorcery. Bless those cultures.

I bought the same book a short time ago, because someone on another site recommended it, but haven't read it yet.

I think that Carlos Castenada was something like a pioneer for lucid dreaming because I've read other books that have referred to him, but I am unsure how good his ideas actually are.

If anyone is interested in his entire works on mp3, heres a sight where you can download 16 mp3's each 45 minutes long with his teachings.

http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/

They sort of interesting, but very deep. I've only listened to the first 4 so far.

Casteneda was initially received as non-fiction, but it turned out due to inaccuracies in his book, that he largely made up everything. There was an interesting article that came out last year about Cateneda and the cult-like group he kept around him in his later years.

He was certainly a popular but really eccentric figure. I wouldn't trust any of his stuff as being anything other than the whimsical fictional musings of a colorful personality. Entertaining and thought-provoking: yes. Real: no way.

Originally Posted by jamous

I'm currently reading the Art of Dreaming by Castaneda. And I have some questions:
1. Can anybody vouch for the the validity of any of it. Seeing and dreaming? Anybody experience anything like this?

I read the Castaneda series and first learned to induce lucidity by using his methods. Once I became lucid I was able to fall asleep again in the dream, in the same position I first went to sleep in, and found the second dream to be intensely vivid - far more so than a usual lucid dream. (This technique is in one of his books, I forget which.) I have had some success with some of the other techniques for refocusing awareness in unique ways that are presented throughout his books.

I lean strongly to the non-fiction side of the Castenada argument but have other reservations about his writings. Namely; the overall mood of the nagual's path of knowledge is too somber for me, and without a nagual to help me along I'm sure I wouldn't have the nearly superhuman dedication it seems to demand of it's practitioners.

Not gonna turn this into a debate, you all know how I feel about these things (I feel its all bull lol), but that doesn't mean i'm right, nor does it mean im wrong...personally since I think i'm right i'm going to have to think i'm right. heh.

Originally Posted by SKA

1. Seeing is a different type of Vision. Has nothing to do with the physical eyes. It is the way shamans/sorcerers see into the spirit reality that is the realm outside the realm of human perception. It is where the causes of war, famine, disease and prosperity in the human world lie and those that can see into it have great powers knowing how to make it work in their advantage.

Dreaming is also different from just having a Dream. It is a conscious commitment to expand the "shape" and size of your realm of perception in the DreamWorld. Castaneda mentions the 7 gates of dreaming as obstacles to overcome to learn the art of dreaming.

2.It is often debated wether Don Juan is real or not, wether Carlos' journeys were real or not. The thing is; it doesn't matter because the teachings are real and meaningfull nevertheless. Maybe he just chose a fictional way to explain his abstract wisdom of life. When words are hard to find to explain certain abstract things people tend to speak in methaphors that run parallel to reality.

3. The Art of Dreaming describes how shaman expand their realm of perception by conscious dreaming. It's all about lucid dreaming. To consciously overcome the 7 dreamgates and enter an infinite spectrum of realms outside usual human realm of perception.

*sigh* haha
thank you, but I've read 4 or 5 of his books and know what seeing and dreaming are. Great explanation though, for those on this page who don't know. You just aren't answering my question (if you were trying and not just expanding). My question is: have you experienced anything that might vouch for the validity of his or don Juan's version of dreaming or the concept of "seeing" *in italics*?

His books are masterpieces in their own right, whether they be fantasy or truth. I would say they are even greater creations if they are just fantasy. But if they aren't, which I doubt, I want to know if anybody has had an experience that might suggest the possibility.

And again, I know what the book is about (but good summary!). It just doesn't seem to be of much use so far as a guide to learning how to lucid dream. Though I know it isn't about the attaining lucidity as much as what to do once there and how to LD at deeper levels.

but definitely thanks for the response, or expansion rather... hope you can answer my questions, though I don't think many can answer the first 2

Originally Posted by little nemo

I read the Castaneda series and first learned to induce lucidity by using his methods. Once I became lucid I was able to fall asleep again in the dream, in the same position I first went to sleep in, and found the second dream to be intensely vivid - far more so than a usual lucid dream. (This technique is in one of his books, I forget which.) I have had some success with some of the other techniques for refocusing awareness in unique ways that are presented throughout his books.

I lean strongly to the non-fiction side of the Castenada argument but have other reservations about his writings. Namely; the overall mood of the nagual's path of knowledge is too somber for me, and without a nagual to help me along I'm sure I wouldn't have the nearly superhuman dedication it seems to demand of it's practitioners.

little Nemo, I know exactly where you're coming from on the mood of it all. Too dark for me. I would be scared to live in a world where you have to forget your family and friends in your personal history and kill your children to reconstruct your soul (book 5). It's all pretty fucked and heartless, I think. Though SO many of the life lessons in the books are SO relevant, probably even the darker ones. I read the first 5 and slowly went from wanting to be a man of knowledge, and hating not having connections to the/a nagual to guide me, to seeing it more as a strange cult-esque operation about worshiping "the nagual" and seeing even your children as enemies. I love the books though, and will continue to read more. You just have to stay open-minded I guess.

And, wow, you learned to LD through these books? And you achieved the advanced gaits of dreaming? That's awesome! What methods did you use to actually achieve a lucid dream?

Actually I finally found Carlos Castaneda books. A friend of mine got them from his dad and I have allready read small bits in The Teachings of Don Juan.

However I have heard that it is a must to read all Castaneda's books in order to understand anything at all. Can anyone suggest me in what order I should read Castaneda's numerous books?

Originally Posted by SKA

Actually I finally found Carlos Castaneda books. A friend of mine got them from his dad and I have allready read small bits in The Teachings of Don Juan.

However I have heard that it is a must to read all Castaneda's books in order to understand anything at all. Can anyone suggest me in what order I should read Castaneda's numerous books?

read the first 3 in order for sure. And, though I have only read 1 and a half of them after that, I guess I would suggest to continue to read them in order. The first three are the only ones I would say are "must-reads."

Or save yourself the trouble and just pretend you read them =P.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Or save yourself the trouble and just pretend you read them =P.

have you read them?

Originally Posted by jamous

have you read them?

Only the art of dreaming (I'm still reading the other one...a seperate reality)

And I was only kidding. If you want to read it be my guest lol.

Oh and to your Question regarding "seeing" yeah I have experienced strange ways of seeing and when I read up on an excerpt of Castaneda's book mentioning "seeing" I recognised exactly what I experienced.

The way you see in dreaming is nothing like your physical vision, yet you really see it. I have had many Psychedelic experiences, most on magic mushrooms, 3 on DMT-bearing Yopo seeds and 3 on LSD and specifically in those experiences I have wakefully experienced "seeing" without the use of my eyes. I would see visions of spirits, intricate patterns and colored planes while my eyes where opened, closed or somewhere in between yet it was very unlike anything I had seen with my actual physical eyes.

I know that is what Castaneda is talking about. It is the same way we "see" our dreams and things we imagine. ESP some call it. Extra Sensory Perception, perceptions that are beyond the physical senses.

I haven't fully read the book yet, which i intend to do as soon as I get my hands on all of his books I wanna read. The excerpts about "seeing" and "dreaming" fascinated me and stirred up my memory about things I've seen without the use of my eyes. So that is why I would say Carlos is right about "seeing". I haven't read his full books yet so I can't say anything for the techniques and means of "seeing" and "dreaming" yet. I know that "seeing" is very real nevertheless.

Originally Posted by SKA

Oh and to your Question regarding "seeing" yeah I have experienced strange ways of seeing and when I read up on an excerpt of Castaneda's book mentioning "seeing" I recognised exactly what I experienced.

The way you see in dreaming is nothing like your physical vision, yet you really see it. I have had many Psychedelic experiences, most on magic mushrooms, 3 on DMT-bearing Yopo seeds and 3 on LSD and specifically in those experiences I have wakefully experienced "seeing" without the use of my eyes. I would see visions of spirits, intricate patterns and colored planes while my eyes where opened, closed or somewhere in between yet it was very unlike anything I had seen with my actual physical eyes.

I know that is what Castaneda is talking about. It is the same way we "see" our dreams and things we imagine. ESP some call it. Extra Sensory Perception, perceptions that are beyond the physical senses.

I haven't fully read the book yet, which i intend to do as soon as I get my hands on all of his books I wanna read. The excerpts about "seeing" and "dreaming" fascinated me and stirred up my memory about things I've seen without the use of my eyes. So that is why I would say Carlos is right about "seeing". I haven't read his full books yet so I can't say anything for the techniques and means of "seeing" and "dreaming" yet. I know that "seeing" is very real nevertheless.

I think seeing is seeing the true nature of things through your physical eyes and ears etc. As if hallucinating. I think dreaming is having a dream in that environment. Regular dreaming is just in your headwhile you're asleep, dreaming is dreaming, also while asleep, in the real world environment but while seeing, seeing is dreaming while awake. Or at least that's how Castaneda conveys it.

I personally think dreaming is dreaming and seeing is tricking yourself into dreaming while awake. If the books are based on anything of that nature, assuming the books are fiction. Who knows? That's actually something that frustrates me about the books, and what led me to post this post, that it's too far-fetched if you haven't had experience with seeing the true nature of things and dreaming in a real world environment.

It should be impossible for you to even remember these "dreaming" and "seeing" if it were real.

First, it occurs outside of your head, where you can not have stimuli to your brain.

Second, even if you could have stimuli to your brain, your brain would not possible be able to process the information. evidence of this is proven by the fact that the only reason monkeys are incapable of speach is a certain muscle in the tungue being gone, when they gave these monkeys muscles by using a surgery, the monkeys still couldn't talk, because they didn't have brain to muscle connection. I don't even want to get into sign language with monkeys lol I'm not exactly sure how they learn, but I guess they can if they do.

So in order for seeing or dreaming to happen, it has to be a total and complete hallucination. Therefore your right, it is "tricking" yourself if any of the events actually occured.

Originally Posted by Sandform

It should be impossible for you to even remember these "dreaming" and "seeing" if it were real.

First, it occurs outside of your head, where you can not have stimuli to your brain.

Second, even if you could have stimuli to your brain, your brain would not possible be able to process the information. evidence of this is proven by the fact that the only reason monkeys are incapable of speach is a certain muscle in the tungue being gone, when they gave these monkeys muscles by using a surgery, the monkeys still couldn't talk, because they didn't have brain to muscle connection. I don't even want to get into sign language with monkeys lol I'm not exactly sure how they learn, but I guess they can if they do.

So in order for seeing or dreaming to happen, it has to be a total and complete hallucination. Therefore your right, it is "tricking" yourself if any of the events actually occured.

I really don't know what you're talking about. Are you saying that it isn't possible to percieve the true essence of everything? What do you mean it occurs outside your head?