How to counter skeptics' statements on Astral Projection?

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it cannot be attributed to metaphysical phenomena.

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Disagree.

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It is an extended use of the brain.

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Well sure, I can agree there. Our brains are involved in the process without question.

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Although what you are describing may be a unique type of experience, this is still lucid dreaming.

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The ones who have had the actual experiences to this level would disagree with your assessment. Funny, how that works.

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Your related beliefs in the supernatural still have no rational basis.

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If by rational you mean that I have no way I can prove this to anyone else, then yes, you're right I suppose. We don't care to prove it, we experience it and we find joy in watching others come to the, "Whoa. Holy fucking SHIT!!!" moments.

Peace.

-K

Learn both (how to LD and how to AP) and decide for yourself! That is the only way you will truly know and after you know other opinions will not matter.

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Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Disagree.

Well sure, I can agree there. Our brains are involved in the process without question.

The ones who have had the actual experiences to this level would disagree with your assessment. Funny, how that works.

If by rational you mean that I have no way I can prove this to anyone else, then yes, you're right I suppose. We don't care to prove it, we experience it and we find joy in watching others come to the, "Whoa. Holy fucking SHIT!!!" moments.

Peace.

-K

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The brain can produce any range of subjective experiences. I don't doubt that you would disagree with me that this is a type of lucid dream; you've obviously had some mind-blowing experiences that exceed the level of your average lucid dream. I would assume that those experiences would have a lot of significance to you. However, no matter how intense the experience is, your mind is capable of producing it. There is no reason to believe that there are supernatural forces at work simply because the profoundness or intensity of the experience. Lucid dreams are known to produce very intense emotions. Some people also regularly use Dream Characters to derive insight and knowledge from their subconscious mind. The mind is completely capable of producing what you are describing.

You're free to believe what you want, but your beliefs are quite simply irrational. Unless, of course, you can provide a viable explanation why you believe in it. Care to contribute one?

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There is no reason to believe that there are supernatural forces at work simply because the profoundness or intensity of the experience.

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It's the "content" of the experience that can't be described or explained that causes the shift in awareness.

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You're free to believe what you want, but your beliefs are quite simply irrational. Unless, of course, you can provide a viable explanation why you believe in it. Care to contribute one?

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"Unfortunately, no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself."

YouTube - Noe Venable - "Juniper" (audio only)

"People will hear they won't know who I am. People will hear and they won't understand. Mama, I've seen them, the others like me. Once I could see it was all I could see."

Our "contributions" here are telling our own stories. We describe what happens to us and the feelings and thoughts experienced while conscious and not in the body. I've listened to hundreds oi stories all from different backgrounds and different religions. If I was to contribute any advice, it would be for anyone interested in this topic to do the same while they explore your own inner world.

I feel like I'm having a conversation with a colorblind man who has never seen red. I can't "prove" Red but it's existence cannot be disputed to those that have seen.

And those of us that HAVE seen red get really, REALLY frustrated when the colorblind tell us it doesn't exist. Rather the argue, though, all we can do is throw our hands in the air and hope that at some point the accusers will give the whole "dream/ap" thing a dedicated, disciplined shot themselves... because really, it's almost impossible for people like me to describe to you what it is I go through without some sort of esoteric experience or understanding on your own part.

Kudos, though, for being dedicated to truth. Even though we take different approaches and believe different things, I don't doubt your integrity. I'm just telling it like it is... from my perspective. ;)

Peace.

-K

ETA: I don't want to downplay the trickiness of topics like this... especially when people are posting threads every other day like, "OMG I think I had a shared dream who on DV here was in it with me!?!?"

Because we're dealing with something that can't be, "proven" (yet...), coupled with billions of (as you like to put it), "irrational" thinkers who all tend to form slightly different opinions on the idea... yeah, what you normally wind up with is one big messy subjective soup of irrational belief. But I think people make a mistake when they throw the baby out with the bathwater just because they see so many irrational minds delving into these ideas. There are ubiquitous gems of wisdom to be found in the world of dreams and they are waiting for anyone who wants to make the effort to find them.

I am not asserting that what you are experiencing does not exist. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm simply going to take your word for it.

The irrational action here is that you jump to the conclusion that the experience is supernatural. The mind on its own can create an unlimited range of subjective experiences from within a lucid dream. That includes a state of high awareness, or any other state of mind. Any information that you are being revealed in such a state is most likely originating from your subconscious mind. Now, that doesn't take away from the subjective profoundness of the experience, but that doesn't mean it should be automatically attributed to some supernatural phenomenon. That's ridiculous. There is a reason why all of the supernatural claims that have been made in the past have never been found to be true. There simply is no 'supernatural'; only irrational imagination. It is ignorant to believe such things, unless you have a damn good reason. The profoundness of an experience is not an acceptable reason, since the mind can create any type of profound experience.

I have OBE/AP 3 times and from my experience It is very spiritual! Very emotional :). I LD a fair bit and i can feel the difference.

i had this Dream once its had crystals everywhere and some ladys voice in my head- and its always a Lady told me about an ATLANTIS stone.

I went i started to meditate in this room of blue crystals atlantis stones, Celestite and calcite. I then woke up with mega Vibrations surging through me wind passing through my ears, i relaxed saw white light protected my self then the vibrations soothed away and was just a lovely crystalline sounds i then felt my body detach then started circling around my body i opend my eyes and i was in my room as it was :D i started circling further and further away from my body then just shot off into the sky i went through a water gate i could feel the water vapour and coolness i had a purple astral trail behind me i just got way to excited and shot back into my body woke up with a gasp of air feeling very happy sad and just wow i felt like i was reborn and since then iv had 2 more :D

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The irrational action here is that you jump to the conclusion that the experience is supernatural.

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I don't, "know" anything. At least not yet. I'm following a trail and it's been blowing my mind every step of the way. It started with meditation, among other things. So far the trail (the rabbit hole) has proven to be limitless in experience and insight. I've also met others on this path and I feel it's worth believing in because of where it's taken me in life. I am inclined to believe due to my experiences that our consciousness/awareness extends beyond our brains and these physical shells. For me, it's the most rational conclusion. Because others haven't had the experiences I have, I don't expect them to come to the same conclusions as my self.

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There simply is no 'supernatural'; only irrational imagination.

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Actually, you can't prove that any more than I can prove that there is. For all we know we die and see a giant Pink Unicorn, right? xD

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It is ignorant to believe such things, unless you have a damn good reason.

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And I do. My experiences and my observations are my reason.

I am curious as to what you'd think of Robert Monroe's books, among dozens of others I've read on the topic of OBE/AP. Many of these books have re-shaped how I view all of this phenomena. All of them were written by people who experience waaaaay more than I ever have... yet.

Peace.

-K

Wrighty, that's a cool experience, man. Thanks for sharing.

It's a nice idea, but really just a form of dreaming in my experiences. Ive had these OBE or Astral Projection type experiences, they are just different forms of lucid dreaming. If you believe you are leaving your body etc, it is very easy to set up a test and prove it, but no one has been able to. I've had dreams and lucid dreams that have shaken me or changed me, it doesn't mean they took place in the astral plane. Trust me I'd love to believe it is true, but most people trying to sell astral projection are people selling a book or trying to get people to their web page. It's like starting out with a belief that there is a higher dimension in a room that is green, lets call it GreenWorld. I am taught and read that Greenworld is real and it is a place I can enter when I am sleeping and in a higher state of mind. So that day comes when I dream about Greenworld, and it feels so real and of course I believe it because I've been told Greenworld exists and how could it not, I just went there when I went to bed. And you can't argue with me, because I know I went there and it felt so real.

Ah, I didn't see your post earlier, Ketsuyume. I'll respond to that first thing when I get online tomorrow. However, Concusion gets what I'm saying; no matter how profound the experience; no matter how far "down the rabbit hole" you go, and no matter how far you decide to pursue this idea that your experiences are supernatural, there is no reason to believe it is supernatural. Your brain is capable of producing any possible experience, and you have no way of knowing from your subjective experience that the experience is in fact caused by some supernatural phenomenon. It is only reasonable to first assume that it's a lucid dream.

I'll elaborate more tomorrow.

Humans can only see certain colors, a finite slice of an infinite spectrum of light vibrations. There is nothing supernatural about X-rays, Radio waves, etc. even though to describe how there are invisible rays of energy that can pass through matter undetected and remotely deliver a voice sounds supernatural. The so-called 'skeptics' who label recounted experiences as "jumping to conclusions that there has to be a supernatural explanation" are the ones who are defining the experience in a way that they cannot understand or believe in. Yes, we use words like Astral. Don't think of that as supernatural, that word has wrong connotations. Think of light. We can dream of beautiful colors but those are still colors that can be seen by the physical eye. The demarcation is going beyond what is physically possible or what is possible in a dream even if we use dreaming to get there. It is like Jacob's ladder. It is like Jacob's ladder.

In this infinite spectrum of wavelengths there is an infinite amount of what we cannot experience and call "physical". Physical is a small finite band of vibrations in this ocean. Even among humans who all share the same attributes we have different levels of skills and geniuses and idiots and mediocrity. Think of the animals and what they can experience!

It is possible to AP with or without dreams. Though it does happen much easier from the dream state. There is a difference, and a similarity. The similarity is that your physical body is lying in bed and most likely asleep. And however you describe it can also be describing a dream whether lucid or not. The differences are impossible to put in words, but I will try. It is like a different level of vibration, the word hyperspace comes to mind. Another difference is that there is direct unshakable knowledge that it is not a dream. Just like when you are lucid no dream character can tell you that you are not dreaming, after a true OOBE nobody can tell you that it was just a dream. As lucid dream is to ordinary dreaming astral projecting is to a lucid dream. Can the experience be a creation of the brain? Yes and no. Yes, in that any experience we have takes place in the brain, and No, because it cannot be imagined by one who hasn't experienced it.

Ketsuyume is right, there are different levels of lucid dreaming and dreaming is the rabbit hole. There are high levels of lucid dreaming that can be confused for astral projection by those who haven't experienced astral projection yet. I bet that most of the problems skeptics have with astral projection are these two: the word "Astral" and the concept of consciousness independent of the body. Astral is an archaic word for something that hasn't been understood by science yet. There are waves of light that science doesn't know about either. They assume that we mean something "supernatural" when rather speaking for myself I believe that it is totally withing the realm of Nature and will be explainable someday. Consciousness that exists independently of the body is a taller hurdle to jump, but it happens.

It is called astral projection as opposed to physical projection because one does not go to the physical world. One may start out in the physical world, but it is like trying to keep a bubble from rising to the top of the ocean: it just won't stay down. You cannot roam about the physical world disembodied. At the best, you can roam about what is called "the etheric" plane, but things can be different in the ethereal plane. But even still, this is an olympic endeavor and boring to boot. And all these "planes" smack of supernatural. Don't let the language put you off from understanding. The language will have to do until we use a different language. Think of it as how there is nothing supernatural about X-rays. In fact, all these "planes" exist here and now and are just different wavelengths outside the ability of our tools of observation to detect. But the human mind is a much more efficient tool and organic also, very sensitive. However, it is prone to errors of interpretation. These are dispelled when an authentic astral projection is experienced. Then one is beyond "belief" and "assumption" and one has true first-hand knowledge. One would have to be beyond deluded to mistake an Astral Projection for a lucid dream, even though the delivery is the same.

Insects can see Ultraviolet. Dogs can hear sounds we cannot. Where does reality end and delusion begin? Where some people say it does? What if I could see ultraviolet? Would I be deluded? What if I could confirm it? No, I cannot see ultraviolet that I am aware of. But I am trying to draw attention that there is no line, it is not black and white. It is as if some people arbitrarily (not quite arbitrarily outright, but somewhat still) draw a line and say "beyond this doesn't exist". There is a class of phenomena and abilities that exist on the fringe of what the mass status quo experience. That this cannot be confirmed by science is no surprise, as neither can many that are common to all and we take for granted. So much that we take for granted can be labeled "supernatural" if I used the logic as some here. I don't like that word because people who use that word don't know what it means.

I totally understand that if you believe that the brain is the origin on consciousness that you would think that astral projection is just a dream if you had never astral projected. Because we can experience anything in a dream, we can dream that we have astral projected. We can dream that we have left our body behind and are flying around. I have also done that many many times and thought that I was doing what people called astral projecting, but I knew that it was a dream. Until I began to actually astral project.

We can tune the radio to static and think that we hear voices, or we can tune it to a station and know that we are hearing voices. Waking Nomad is right, it doesn't matter if people don't believe you.

P.S. There is no harm in thinking that it is a kind of Lucid Dream also, even though it defies the definition of lucid dream. A lucid dream is a dream where you know you are dreaming. How can you know that it is not a dream and know that it is? An ordinary dream? It is not that either.
But there is nothing wrong with dreaming of astral projecting or believing that they are the same. Just enjoy the experience without the need to explain it, judge it, define it, etc... Just enjoy dreams and astral voyages.

How to counter skeptics' statements? Say "You might be right, who knows?" and go about your business.

Really, the problem is not so much on the idea as it is on the personal attacks on skeptics. Seriously, when you tell someone to consider the possibilities, you are telling them to be skeptic about this spiritual subject, so why is it ok to attack the ones who are less spiritual sided, but it is not ok to attack the ones that are more spiritual sided, I wonder?

For example, mindgames is using the example that you can roam on the physical plane for AP to say that it is easily verifiable and since it has not been, must be fake. Dannon is using the one where you can't roam the physical plane to explain his post, he also stated that it might be something not found yet by science, don't see the problem with that since there is no shoving down anything and leaves it more open, sure more prone to be used as confirmation bias but whatever.

The real problem is it so often happens that it goes from "this might be it, and this is my belief" to "skeptics are just close-minded people who you should not mind nor hear out" which I think is wrong, especially when spiritual people ask for people to be skeptic before saying something is impossible, actually I see that everywhere around BD.

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Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Humans can only see certain colors, a finite slice of an infinite spectrum of light vibrations. There is nothing supernatural about X-rays, Radio waves, etc. even though to describe how there are invisible rays of energy that can pass through matter undetected and remotely deliver a voice sounds supernatural. The so-called 'skeptics' who label recounted experiences as "jumping to conclusions that there has to be a supernatural explanation" are the ones who are defining the experience in a way that they cannot understand or believe in. Yes, we use words like Astral. Don't think of that as supernatural, that word has wrong connotations. Think of light. We can dream of beautiful colors but those are still colors that can be seen by the physical eye. The demarcation is going beyond what is physically possible or what is possible in a dream even if we use dreaming to get there. It is like Jacob's ladder. It is like Jacob's ladder.

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If the "Astral Plane" somehow transcends physical reality or the dreamscape then it is supernatural by definition. And if it doesn't really ascend anything, then it is simply a lucid dream. Pick your poison. If you don't like the fact that it's called supernatural, tough, because that's what it is.

Again, anything is possible in dreams. You cannot experience anything that would not be possible to experience inside of a dream. While you may think that an experience transcends dreams, it most likely merely seems that way. Your mind is perfectly capable of producing an experience that is more "spiritual" than anything you thought possible.

By the way, writing a sentence twice doesn't make it twice as true.

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In this infinite spectrum of wavelengths there is an infinite amount of what we cannot experience and call "physical". Physical is a small finite band of vibrations in this ocean. Even among humans who all share the same attributes we have different levels of skills and geniuses and idiots and mediocrity. Think of the animals and what they can experience!

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Okay, sure, but how does that validate the existence of Astral Projection?

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It is possible to AP with or without dreams. Though it does happen much easier from the dream state. There is a difference, and a similarity. The similarity is that your physical body is lying in bed and most likely asleep. And however you describe it can also be describing a dream whether lucid or not. The differences are impossible to put in words, but I will try. It is like a different level of vibration, the word hyperspace comes to mind. Another difference is that there is direct unshakable knowledge that it is not a dream.

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I don't doubt that people can induce lucid dreams directly from the waking state. I would assume that it is a more honed form of WILD. But yes, it is easier to go on a lucid adventure that seems like an "Astral" experience if you're already dreaming rather than inducing the dream and the experience directly from the waking state. With response to the indescribable feeling, as I have said multiple times before, any such experience can be created by your subconscious. I feel like I'm just going around in circles here trying to explain that to you guys. The "unshakable knowledge that it is not a dream" probably stems from your initial belief in Astral Projection. You are experiencing your subconscious' representation of Astral Projection, and so it is very easy to believe that what you are experiencing is in fact Astral Projection and is not a dream.

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Just like when you are lucid no dream character can tell you that you are not dreaming,

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Untrue.

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after a true OOBE nobody can tell you that it was just a dream. As lucid dream is to ordinary dreaming astral projecting is to a lucid dream. Can the experience be a creation of the brain? Yes and no. Yes, in that any experience we have takes place in the brain, and No, because it cannot be imagined by one who hasn't experienced it.

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What constitutes a true OOBE? One that your subconscious was extremely good at creating and making it seem like it was a true OOBE? There is no way to tell if what you were experiencing was in fact an out of body experience. And you can't go with your gut feeling, since that do not represent truth; it merely represents what you subconsciously believe to be true.

Many lucid experiences cannot simply be imagined, but they can be created very well by the brain when it has access to the raw power available when you are dreaming. Only once you have had an experience first-hand from within a lucid dream as profound and intense as you are describing can you refer to it in memory and wakefully imagine it.

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Ketsuyume is right, there are different levels of lucid dreaming and dreaming is the rabbit hole. There are high levels of lucid dreaming that can be confused for astral projection by those who haven't experienced astral projection yet. I bet that most of the problems skeptics have with astral projection are these two: the word "Astral" and the concept of consciousness independent of the body. Astral is an archaic word for something that hasn't been understood by science yet. There are waves of light that science doesn't know about either.

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My problem with astral projection is that any experience that initially takes place within a lucid dream is most likely a lucid dream. That also applies to the WILDs that many mistake for astral projection. Subjective experiences are merely subjective; they cannot be given any scientific merit since they can easily be created by the mind from within a lucid dream. As for "science" not knowing about certain waves of light, that's a load of bullshit. That's comparable to saying that there are numbers that mathematicians don't know about. We do know the concept of infinity, and we have classified all important types of wavelengths of light. Anything outside of our classification zones are unimportant and we already know that they are simply either more or less energetic depending on which direction of the spectrum you travel.

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They assume that we mean something "supernatural" when rather speaking for myself I believe that it is totally withing the realm of Nature and will be explainable someday.

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Sure, I agree that what you are experiencing is within the realm of nature, too. Lucid dreams are totally within the realm of nature, since they are simply dreams, no matter how profound they may seem to be.

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Consciousness that exists independently of the body is a taller hurdle to jump, but it happens.

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No, it does not "happen".



I would have responded to more of your post, but quite frankly this discussion is just wasting time. You cannot be sure that Astral Projection exists. There is no reason to believe that it does, unless either: you initially believed in it and had an experience that seemed to have been Astral Projection; or you had a profound lucid experience, later learned of what people seem to think is projection onto an astral plane of existence, and then decided that that was what your experience was. You are not projecting onto another plane of existence; you are simply having profound experiences that merely seem to be spiritual.

The only way to counter skeptics' statements that the Astral Plane does not exist is to simply say that you do not know for sure it exists, but that based on your experiences it seems to you as though it does. In this way you are acknowledging that you may be wrong, but you choose to believe in Astral Projection because you had a profound, seemingly supernatural experience.

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Originally Posted by MindGames

If the "Astral Plane" somehow transcends physical reality or the dreamscape then it is supernatural by definition. And if it doesn't really ascend anything, then it is simply a lucid dream. Pick your poison. If you don't like the fact that it's called supernatural, tough, because that's what it is.

Again, anything is possible in dreams. You cannot experience anything that would not be possible to experience inside of a dream. While you may think that an experience transcends dreams, it most likely merely seems that way. Your mind is perfectly capable of producing an experience that is more "spiritual" than anything you thought possible.

By the way, writing a sentence twice doesn't make it twice as true.



Okay, sure, but how does that validate the existence of Astral Projection?



I don't doubt that people can induce lucid dreams directly from the waking state. I would assume that it is a more honed form of WILD. But yes, it is easier to go on a lucid adventure that seems like an "Astral" experience if you're already dreaming rather than inducing the dream and the experience directly from the waking state. With response to the indescribable feeling, as I have said multiple times before, any such experience can be created by your subconscious. I feel like I'm just going around in circles here trying to explain that to you guys. The "unshakable knowledge that it is not a dream" probably stems from your initial belief in Astral Projection. You are experiencing your subconscious' representation of Astral Projection, and so it is very easy to believe that what you are experiencing is in fact Astral Projection and is not a dream.



Untrue.



What constitutes a true OOBE? One that your subconscious was extremely good at creating and making it seem like it was a true OOBE? There is no way to tell if what you were experiencing was in fact an out of body experience. And you can't go with your gut feeling, since that do not represent truth; it merely represents what you subconsciously believe to be true.

Many lucid experiences cannot simply be imagined, but they can be created very well by the brain when it has access to the raw power available when you are dreaming. Only once you have had an experience first-hand from within a lucid dream as profound and intense as you are describing can you refer to it in memory and wakefully imagine it.



My problem with astral projection is that any experience that initially takes place within a lucid dream is most likely a lucid dream. That also applies to the WILDs that many mistake for astral projection. Subjective experiences are merely subjective; they cannot be given any scientific merit since they can easily be created by the mind from within a lucid dream. As for "science" not knowing about certain waves of light, that's a load of bullshit. That's comparable to saying that there are numbers that mathematicians don't know about. We do know the concept of infinity, and we have classified all important types of wavelengths of light. Anything outside of our classification zones are unimportant and we already know that they are simply either more or less energetic depending on which direction of the spectrum you travel.



Sure, I agree that what you are experiencing is within the realm of nature, too. Lucid dreams are totally within the realm of nature, since they are simply dreams, no matter how profound they may seem to be.



No, it does not "happen".



I would have responded to more of your post, but quite frankly this discussion is just wasting time. You cannot be sure that Astral Projection exists. There is no reason to believe that it does, unless either: you initially believed in it and had an experience that seemed to have been Astral Projection; or you had a profound lucid experience, later learned of what people seem to think is projection onto an astral plane of existence, and then decided that that was what your experience was. You are not projecting onto another plane of existence; you are simply having profound experiences that merely seem to be spiritual.

The only way to counter skeptics' statements that the Astral Plane does not exist is to simply say that you do not know for sure it exists, but that based on your experiences it seems to you as though it does. In this way you are acknowledging that you may be wrong, but you choose to believe in Astral Projection because you had a profound, seemingly supernatural experience.

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This waking life that we take for granted also could be a lucid dream created by the mind, and you can give no evidence otherwise. But we take for granted that it is a "real" "physical plane" experience. If someone were to try to tell you that you are dreaming right now, you would not believe it. You "know" that you are awake and not dreaming. Of course your brain is capable of also creating this representation based on your subconscious ideas of what the "physical plane" is like. You said that one cannot be sure that astral projection exists, then I say to you that you cannot be sure that the physical plane exists. It is the same logic.

Supernatural doesn't mean immaterial, it means beyond the laws of nature. There are plenty of immaterial things which are not supernatural.

This is the sort of debate that I have seen many a time in Beyond Dreaming and the Inner Sanctum, and all over, really. It's always the same: you have the side that chooses to believe their personal, subjective experiences when it comes to unusual or "supernatural" events, and the side that chooses to believe established logic and science. I've yet to see one side ever change the other one's mind. I personally, try to seek a middle ground. Obviously logic and reason have their uses, I never would have gotten through school without them, but I pay attention to my personal experiences too, and the experiences of others. I've never had a single experience of my own that I would really call "paranormal" however, which makes me all the more fascinated by others' stories. It's something that I seek but have yet to find. Heck, I don't even have the time or ability to lucid dream very often.

Anyway, I can tell I'm starting to ramble. My point is, neither side is really infallible. Personal experience can be wrong or misguided, yes. Science can, as well. And I won't even start talking about possible conspiracies in the world, who the hell knows, but it could impact people's belief in science. Trying to be neutral to both sides makes it really hard for me to truly believe in anything, and I feel some sorrow from that, but that's how I'm wired. I keep an open-mind to every possibility I can.

I won't lie, though... eventually I will probably swing over to the paranormal side of things. In the presence of things that have no reason for me to believe or disbelieve them, I opt for the ones that sound like fun. And I dunno about you, but all the Astral and Shared dreaming stuff sounds like lots of fun. Even if I end up deluded in the end, I'll still be a productive member of society, so who cares? :D

It is a very widespread debate, but I don't think that it is about belief as much as it is about perception. I don't choose to believe in things and I don't think that skeptics choose to believe in things either. It is a matter of perception. When one perceives something and the other says that they are hallucinating, while the other person perceives something else and the first person says that they are close-minded. It is easy to judge someone else's perception as delusion or close minded when they don't see the way you do. Very often, we are perceiving the same things in two different ways, but not always. We cannot ultimately say that one perception is inherently wrong if we also are perceiving the same thing.

But I think that in this case of lucid dream vs. astral projection is tricky, because not everyone experiences astral projection. Of course all phenomena is illusory and devoid of any inherent meaning, so anything and everything is a creation of the mind, BUT that is in an absolute sense that is not pragmatic. In a relative sense we need to define certain things as real and others as fantasy for ourselves. Where do we draw the line? That line is drawn in different places by different perceptions. What is important is not where we disagree, because the line will always be on the fringe. What is important is what we agree on that is in the center away from the line at the edge of reality. The center is where we all can agree on what is real. The closer you get to the edge the more different everyone's perception will be.

Singularity, it is interesting that you bring up dream sharing. Dream sharing seems to be an even rarer phenomena than astral projection. Dream sharing is a kind of astral projection rather that 'dream' sharing, it is like an astral projection into a dream. It is rarer because it takes much more skill and two people with a strong emotional bond and skills are required. But dream sharing can be confirmed very easily.
Also, it is important to differentiate between dream sharing and dreaming that you are dream sharing. In dreaming that you are dream sharing you are not lucid because you think the other person is real and not a creation of your mind. Actual dream sharing is different. There are many times when one dreams of someone else and then asks the other person the next day about his/her dreams and there is no confirmation. That is dreaming of dream sharing. Real dream sharing has the same feeling of reality that a valid astral projection does. And it is easily confirmed every time.

What mindgames is saying about how any experience can be a creation of the brain is a good point, and logically very sound, however it reminds me of when making love to a woman and you ask her if she has cummed and she responds "I think so". This shows that not only did she not reach an orgasm, she has never had an orgasm and does not know what one is first hand. She might believe she had an orgasm, but we know that she hasn't.

Yes, of course perception is what is really important here. It is true that people don't generally consciously decide to believe something else. They form beliefs around what they experience and perceive, which is turn is influenced by their beliefs. It can be a vicious cycle in the most extreme cases, but generally is an acceptable, if flawed, feedback loop that gets us through the day. People pay more attention to what they deem more important, and why shouldn't they? Being able to tune out the noise is what kept us alive when hunting as cavemen. Or, something like that. For our own sanity, it is important to tune some things out. The only time it's a problem is when it comes to subjective experiences, where our own mind can create what we believe exists. It has potential to throw a wrench into the works, for sure.

Keep in mind that I'm, well, partially talking out of my ass here, because I've never had experiences one would classify as paranormal. But I have always figured that if I did have such an experience, I would just have to rely on my intuition to tell me whether it was "real" or not. Sometimes though, I figure you just have to take a gamble, and you don't know if you're right or not. I'm still not committed to any particular beliefs, but the more stories I hear from a close, RL friend of mine, the more fascinated I become. It's the sort of stuff I want to believe, despite not having any experience in the matter.

Heh, I'm fond of telling him that I'm the crazy one, because his own perceptions give him a reason to believe what he does. I, on the other hand, consider believing it without perceiving it myself. That goes a bit beyond trusting one's own experiences. :D

I'd love to believe in Astral Projection, and wish for it to be true, but based on experiences and similar OBE Astral Projection experiences, I have reflected and come to the conclusion it is likely intense lucid dreaming, because they do take many forms and the intensity varies. In regards to Singularity comments about choosing to believe the more fun stuff because it doesn't hurt anyone, and I agree, its fun to dream (no pun intended) about the possibilities. However if people teach other people false things as if they were true, how does that help anyone? I am open to the possibility of Astral Projection if it was somehow proven to be true, but it hasn't been and most people who believe in it, go around acting as if it is true, and leave no open possibility that it's not, nor do they mention it, so in a way they are harming by not being subjective at all and teaching falsehoods. That matters if you really looking for eternal truth and answers. So that is my only beef. I am all for exploring Astral Projection and finding out if its true and hearing about peoples experiences, I am just against the way some people deliver their beliefs as fact.

Well you should try it. If you are open to seeing if it is true you need to apply yourself like people apply themselves to learning lucid dreaming.

I'll read all of this a bit later.

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Supernatural doesn't mean immaterial, it means beyond the laws of nature.

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Beyond the laws as we understand them... currently. I simply believe our "laws" are more malleable than we once supposed, but I don't believe it's possible to break laws. Scientific laws break down to math and math is one of several universal truths. I believe sooner or later we'll come to understand everything we don't.

Here's the best way to sum up my position on this:

I have yet to read a book or meet a person who is actively engaged in a disciplined mind training process, who explores other worldly realms consciously, and believes it ALL to be a subjective product of their mind. I've read PLENTY of things from people who have dabbled in lucid dreaming or perhaps meditate on a semi-frequent basis, but for those who have dedicated their lives to understanding this phenomena, something changes as you follow the Yellow Brick Road.

What *I* would be interested in is the individual who meditates daily, alters his state of mind for hours on end, has nonstop out of body experiences that have gone beyond what most people label, "lucid dreaming" and then still concludes it's all a product of his mind.

In fact, I would be genuinely curious to hear what this person has to say, because I've read several books and listened to hundreds of stories and I don't think I've ever come across someone like that.

But honestly, I'm quite amused by this circular debate because there is always one consistent thing about it: Those that can't accept the idea that we might be more than our bodies have not made any dedicated, disciplined effort to understand and experience what it is we are. It doesn't take a belief in the metaphysical to at least accept that you are more than your waking consciousness. Your dreams prove this.

What I would LIKE to see is a healthy debate between skeptics who lucid dream/AP super consciously and believers who lucid dream/AP super consciously, but it will never happen because if we were to train the skeptics for the job they would all wind up becoming believers before they were anywhere close to level of mental exploration the most disciplined of minds have achieved. ;)

If that upsets and skeptics then I double dog dare them to step it up and make this a life dedication. :D I would love to have a conversation with you on the other side... after you've come back. There is a lot of esoteric stuff that can't really be discussed, only experienced and understood by someone else who has experienced it.

But ya know, we'll just be here happily encouraging those that want to give it a shot for themselves. That's all we really can do. ;)

Peace and all that.

-K

Ok, hopefully this won't go unnoticed again, despite believers disliking me.
Lets see, ketsuyume, I'm a LDing dedicated person, started practicing at age 5, so most of my life has been with this. Have had some deep experiences, like being a planet, being one with the universe, not-existing, having no body, being someone else, death and a bunch of others, even so I have no reason to believe any of these were AP or the like, so I don't.
I will say this again too, when you ask someone to take the chance at exploring, you are asking them to be skeptic, to not rule out the possibility. You guys keep being insulting at skeptics and don't even realize it, you ask for people to not be close-minded, to be skeptic, yet say that skeptics are not up for a challenge. For me, it seems that the ones who refuse to think outside the box are the believers (Well, in this thread only), beause you clearly show being closed to the opinion of anyone who disagrees and quickly disregard it as someone who has no experience or just can't understand/refuses to, why?

EDIT: Actually, I have a feeling you guys will disregard my experineces since I disagree with you...

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you clearly show being closed to the opinion of anyone who disagrees and quickly disregard it as someone who has no experience or just can't understand/refuses to, why?

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Just for the record, I was a Mormon for 22 years then an atheist for several years longer before arriving where I am today. I understand the frustration, very much so, about individuals who appear to be closed minded. I've had the world I've known all my life ripped open and shattered right in front of me on more than one occasion.

I don't disregard... new opinions or things I've never heard before. These same ideas that challenge my views I've hashed hundreds of times on my quest for truth, so sorry if I've come across as condescending. Like you all, I've carefully found my way to my current belief system through a great deal of thought and experience.

From my perspective it is simply unfathomable to disregard the connection between dreams/OBE/AP, life/death, and the metaphysical. This is due to my experience. I don't call anyone else irrational, only inexperienced. You're free to call me irrational if you'd like; it doesn't really bother me... but I wish I could call everyone, "experienced." It would make this debate easier.

I am curious, Hukif, how you perceive your thousands of lucid dreams. Are you a natural dreamer or have you developed a dedicated routine, and for what purpose?

-K

Well, as I said in a post before, the problem is when people go all "Skeptics are close minded, you should explore all possibilities" because skeptic means being in doubt, I don't see why anyone would insult someone, then tell others to be like that someone.

I don't really call anyone illogical, everyone must have their own reasons to reach the conclusioins they have, but that is no reason to insult each-other or ignore anyone who disagrees with you, right?

And for the lucids, dedication since I was 5, just that. Not a natural since I had to work my butt off to get lucids, and still have to work hard on it, but I like them, I can learn a lot from dreams and have fun at the same time. There are two things that motivate me to LD, one is to fight, the other one is to experience and learn things different from the waking world. Like being one with the universe, quite the trippy experience. Or not-existing, one I don't think can be explained.

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Or not-existing, one I don't think can be explained.

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Yeah. Experiences like that can add up over time and really change your perspective on life.

I remain a skeptic on many issues still, like... exactly... specifically what happens when I die, I have no idea.

However I admit, more than anything else I've ever experienced in life, my dreams/OBE's/AP's have convinced me that we are more than just these physical shells. It's also convinced me there is much, much to be learned about ourselves and our higher Selves via the exploration of these realms. My dedication level isn't anywhere near where I'd like it to be right now, but I'm confident that I've only scratched the surface of the Rabbit Hole.

Either way, the journey is an exciting one.

-K