Hey I would like to know...
If Astral Projection is a Lucid Dream so why when I'm relaxed, and concentred on my computer screen I feel sometimes floating or balancing outside my body, but Im not asleep ... ?
Thanks :lol:
Printable View
Hey I would like to know...
If Astral Projection is a Lucid Dream so why when I'm relaxed, and concentred on my computer screen I feel sometimes floating or balancing outside my body, but Im not asleep ... ?
Thanks :lol:
A feeling of floating outside your body would be more like an out of body-experience than an astral projection. Anyway, to get to your point: there is no way to tell with certainty if astral projection is the same as lucid dreaming. And there is also no telling if out of body-experiences are real or not. Personally, I believe what you are experiencing is just your brain fooling you. It has been known to happen that people often feel things that aren't really there. That is just my opinion though, nobody can judge what it is better than yourself. I hope this helps :)
I'm on who strongly believes that hallucinations is a word that should be banned until humans understand more about the connection between our physical and spiritual aspects. The brain is nothing but a filter, which filters out sensory input based on what we deem as "normal." Anything that happens is real, I don't believe anything can actually happen that isn't "real," because once it happens, it has existed--thus can be subjectively considered "real" by the person experiencing it.
I think what astralboy experienced is a moment where his brain could not censor an experience of which he felt. Perhaps it could have been some form of ESP, such as bi-location, remote viewing, soul projection, OBE, deep trance, etc.
You can have a lucid dream only while you asleep. But you can have OBE during meditation, when you are not asleep, when you alter state of your brain to state in which OBE is possible.
And nobody can say for sure if OBE/AP exists or not, or if LD=OBE, since it was not proved either way yet. It's best to make your own opinion based on your own experiences.
*Moved to Beyond dreaming*
Thanks for your answers.
But I think more like gab and neo1906 because I think we are much more than just meat (brains)...
Just one exemple : SCIENCE say that LOVE is just a chemical reaction. I say Wrong.
YES, brain "interpret" and "create" a chemical reaction for the phisical body because it need to feel it, to understand it, but THE LOVE is too difficult to understand for Us and science now. It's too easy to say its just a chemical reaction... They need to look further.
The same for "drugs", they say drugs make you hallucinate because of the brain's chemical reaction...
But maybe drugs make change of the brain, and because of this we can see "other dimensions" and this dimension at the same time ... and they call this simply halluciantion. BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THIS.
For me the brain is just an Interpreter for the phisical body, not the cause, but just an effect of the spirit.
I hope my english is understantable lol
What do you think ?
And do you feel this sensation too sometimes ? (out of body feelings when you are focused on something)
Thanks :)
I wouldn't say that love is just a chemical reaction. I agree that that would be an understatement. Although I would say that it is most likely a combination of all kinds of complicated chemical reactions. But well, I am a really scientific person myself. It doesn't really matter, any opinion or view is fine until one of them has been proven, and conclusive proof is rare, if at all occurring.Quote:
Originally Posted by astralboy
From time to time, I get some kind of out of body-sensation. It's usually while meditating that I feel weightless, or like I am falling. It's quite awesome :)
There are a few theories on why psychedelics do what they do. The "official" explanation is the increase of serotonin causes hallucinations, but a lot of people who use them think that it turns on certain parts of the brain that usually aren't used and turns off other parts. It's possible that they could both be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by astralboy
So that feeling of floating is an OBE? Because on occasion I get this feeing that I'm floating out of my seat and everything in the room gets really small as though I were viewing it from afar.
Floating feeling can be many things. By itself, it doesn't define OBE, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prancingwolf
Call it what you will, but dream control methods work exactly the same during an OBE as they do in dreams. As far as I'm concerned, to me that means they're the same thing.
Well, if OBE=LD actually depends on how you define OBE. For example, when you DEILD, it can sometimes feel like you roll out of your body. Some people would call that an OBE, but it's just a lucid dream really. However, there have also been people who underwent surgery, and saw everything that happened (and even remembered things the surgeon said and did). That would also be called an OBE, and it is (most likely) not the same as a lucid dream.
So if OBE=LD not only depends on individual belief, it also depends on how you define 'OBE'
The term OBE is so generic. It just means an experience of being out of your body. Some OBE may be magical or mystical, but a dream of being out of body, is still an experience, so it is an OBE.
I do personally think some events are mystical in nature, but what Cusp says is very true. In the astral realms (be they really or mental) the means of control and motion are the same as skills used in LDing. Either that means AP that I experience is a form of LD, or as I take it, that there is more to LDing than is apperent, and it is related to AP on some basic level.
For me our physical reality is an OBE in a sense. Because an OBE means that your awareness is outside your body, but your awareness is never IN the body in the first place!
It's only directed there. It's qute interesting that the best explanation of our reality that fits the model of physics, is that it's virtual!
Think of it like a videogame, let's say a super vivid Grand Theft Auto but with more information and rules than just a simple videogame, but our reality works in the same way.
So if we experienced a world with stable rules and believed what we observed was real, then we would also say that our expeirence in that world is what explains everything around us, and in a sense that is true, it does explain the world you are in by then! But there are different rules when it comes to Grand Theft Auto than if you look at Pacman!
The same goes for lucid dreaming, there are different rules when it comes to our physical reality than when it comes to dreaming! It basically like switching what "TV-Screen" you are focusing on.
To divide these games into groups to make it easier to see what reality we talk about, we just call all the realities in a higher frequency than our physical dimension "astral".
When we talk about OBE we usually talk about the experience of switching our consciousness to a world were the physical reality looks the same, but you are no longer bound to your physical body but you still recieve the same information, sort of like a freelook feature in a game. :) But an OBE is simple every experience you have! Because you are never in the body in the first place you only direct your awareness to it and because of the ego "subconscious, memories and emotions" we create the illusion of being dependent of the body.
By experiencing the first kind of association of OBE that I talked about we can prove that our consciousness is more than just a chemical in the brain.
So what Lucid dreaming and astral projection have in common that makes them "the same" is that they are both induced when you shift your consciousness from this world to another frequency.
What makes them different is the different definitions and meanings that people assign the terms. But in a sense they are the same because it is very hard to define what is information that's just information of your previous experience and what's new.
Thanks for reading :) And here is a fun little video about dimensions: Spirit Science 7 ~ Dimensions - YouTube
When I have experienced OBE's what I see around me in the house is really similar to what exists, but that is because it is the reality I experienced every day. Something similar happens around the house, but when I walk away from there, what I see is very different from reality. My conclusion is that during the development of OB E's what is experienced is nothing but random scenes such as those that occur in non-lucid dreams.
You're on an Astral Plane when you dream. So it's different states of awareness.
I am totally exceptic.
Does anyone think that we project every time we dream we just cannot remember the "leaving" part. I also believe that I am somewhere else when I LD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astralent
Hi Astralboy,
(spyguy, neo1906, gab, woodstock, Prancingwolf, Cusp, sivason, MasterMind, sanctispiritus, Astralent and Zalibar).
Here is an interesting paragraph on page 132 of Leaving the Body by Scott Rogo. Most of the great projectors of the past were also lucid dreamers. . Many of them even learned the art of astral projection as a by-product of their experiments in dream control.
Just why this curious relationship exists is not clear. There is good reason to believe that unconscious factors play an important role in the ability to leave the body;
perhaps learning conscious control of ones unconscious mental processes is a critical factor in the ability to produce OBEs.This theory is supported by the fact that people who try to induce lucid dreaming also produce OBEs quite accidentally.
As mentioned earlier,
Sylvan Muldoon, Hugh Callaway, and many others claimed that at least some of their OBEs were induced through the manipulation of lucid dreaming. (...)
Here is mor on book.
http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/leaving-body-136732/
this is one of those answers that can not be proven to other people right now unfortunately. either the information about astral projection makes sense to you and you agree with it, or you have personal experiences of your own to validate if for yourself. there really is no way for someone else to confirm what happens to you. i personally feel like astral projection is all about getting your own answers and that for me is the most important reason to even study it.
hey MasterMind i just got done watching that youtube vid. haven't seen that series yet thanks. lots of good info there.
I am glad that you liked it Runeword. :) Spirituality combined with science shouldn't be viewed in duality, but in unity.
To do that spirtuality need to use the tools of science to improve and science need to use the tools of spirituality to improve. ;)
And I am so jealous that you haven't watched it yet! I have seen them all o. O However there will be a new video this Monday I think! :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by neo1906
I strongly agree with the first paragraph of your post. The word hallucination is used to dismiss as unreal something that is obviously real in its own right and might even bear most of the marks of "reality" we associate with the waking world. "Hallucinations" can reportedly include experiences that in many ways seem more real than so-called reality. Clearly no sharp distinction can be drawn between "dream" and "reality" as they causally influence each other; they're different sorts of reality at best. More than that though, claims of shared dreams and dream-like experiences that intersect the "real" world--sometimes in empirically confirmable ways--suggest that "dreams" and "reality" are on a continuum. I incline to think reality consists of dreams and reified dreams.
I'd go even farther. I think the word hallucination might even be dangerous, and the words dream and imagination as well. I think the vernacular senses of these terms introduce potentially dangerous ideas about the ethics (or even just the pragmatics) of dreaming. Some people on dreamviews describe engaging in behaviors during their lucids that they'd never approve of during waking reality; that seems very unwise to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by neo1906
That's an assumption without any logic on it. What do you consider a state of awareness, and what reasons do you have to define astral projection as an experience that differs from lucid dreaming? So far, there's proof of the last, and none of the first. Besides, this article is made of assumptions, so nothing really that can be discussed objectively. Pardon if I sound offensive, but I don't really get why people have to tie dreaming into supernatural concepts. The mere fact that we would take something we clearly not yet understand, and put concepts and entities which go on support by substance dualism, makes it sound like people love to came up with explanations that make no sense. I'm of opinion that it sure is fun to wonder "why not", but when the why not reaches a point where we weave dreams into astral projection and take the last as a "real experience", just because people choose to believe it so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Astralent
How can you prove negatives? The fact that AP wasn't proven true makes it automatically located in the realm of the unknowable or not true, due lack of back up evidence. Means there's no valid justification to even point at it. And yes, AP is proven false from the very first moment you look into substance dualism 0oQuote:
Originally Posted by gab
The OBE discussion seems rather interesting though, I'll be sure to give a good read on the subject in order to keep up with the discussion :)
Ever heard of the phantom limb effect? i think it's something like that.
In short. amputees would still feel pain in the body parts that where missing. So for example:
If you would lay a fake hand on the place the person would lay his or her hand. And hit it with a hammer. The person then would experience pain as if it where his/ her own hand.
I think OBE and such is something like that because of sleep paralysis your brain is just messing up and placing the feeling of your body elsewhere.
There is an experiment for this that really works:
1. Purchase a realistic but fake arm/hand
- Sit at table with one hand resting on the table, the other beneath the table.
- Position the fake arm/hand on the table in the corresponding position as though both hands/arms are resting on the table.
- Have associate tap both real hand that is beneath table and the fake hand in synchrony as you watch the fake hand.
- Notice how sensations appear to originate from the fake hand/arm.
2. Carry out the same on naïve associate.
- Once the effect has been achieved for a while, pull out previously hidden hammer and hit the fake arm/hand.
Phantom Limb Pain - Ramachandran Method, Mirror Box
Here's my problem. And I hate to by a whinny baby about my problems to complete strangers especially when it is about something that is so personal, but I do not know where else to turn to, and was really hoping someone, ANYONE could please shed some light and give me the answers that I seek.
A atheist friend of mine has basically proven to me (without even trying hard at all) that there is no afterlife, that once we die, that is it.
I of course after months of research and stress can not live with the thought of never existing after I die in any conscious way.
I found out about, a challenge made by someone who would give over a million dollars to anyone who could please just prove once and for all in a controlled setting that this OBE or AP belief is real to the point where at least ONE person can claim the money. So far to this day, nothing. NO proof, and no claims.
I heard all the boo hoo excuses of how it is bad karma money, or how money is not important, and blah blah blah.
Then damn it do for free and give the money away to charity.
I do not understand what to believe anymore. Can someone please use reason and logic to help me. Because as far as I am concerned, there is no point of living, I am very depressed with this realization, and I know it is not anyone job to make me feel better. But I can not understand how if there are so many people who make the claims that they can make, but yet no one wants the money? Or at least to prove it is real?
Please someone help me with this. Thank you.
Signed,
Sincerely MR.depressed, and afraid of the infinite end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwfjdraw
LOL Relax! No one can prove you that afterlife don't exist!
Even science is silent about it!
Of course no one proved (scientifically) that afterlife exist. It is something that is beyond our actual science and their tools.
Atheist means that he doesn't believe in god. But it remains a belief.
No one know nothing about God, not even if he exists or not. We as humans don't know that. We have only beliefs.
One can believe that god exist and the other can believe that he do not exist! But no one KNOW for sure.
It is the same with the afterlife.
But there is your experience, like the yoga of dreams, dream yoga.
There is buddhist monks who practice it and so many other people in the world that experience everyday the "afterlife".
But talking about it is meaningless, because it is just reading. And some will say you that I'm wrong.
That is why it is important to have your own experience. And once you have it no one can contradict what you have experienced.
I, myself have a conviction that I'm a soul, a conscioussness. I have a temporal body... The thing that thinks is notmy brain. The brain recieve it.
I can read whatever you want that contradict, you can tell me wathever you want but nothing can contradict that experiences.
That is why buddhist monks are not interested if science or others confirmation. They have that inner knowlege.
Once you have your experience there is nothing more needed.
Well, wwfjdrawQuote:
Originally Posted by wwfjdraw
I think the problem is that we people (in 2014) have a very limited way of thinking. That's not our fault. The words are not yet available to discuss the "real" truth, yet.
So
The conclusions we come to cannot be correct.
Concerning truth (live after death) without the words (concepts) to communicate what we mean to each other... That's the rub.
I will give you an example.
Example:
You do not exist (!!! Wat!!!)
Because
We are *one being* in billions of individual bodies. That "one being" is the only intelligence in the universe. And that "one being" lives in "one moment" through-out the entire timeline from the BigBang to Absolute Zero (the end of time and space)
Now wwfjdraw
Any experiments to prove the afterlife not based on that (mind boggling) truth, will fall flat on its face.
I GIVE $1000 TRILLIONS TO PEOPLE WHO CAN PROVE THAT WE ARE ONLY MEAT... Or that consciousness die with the body. :)
It is easy to say I will give you money if you prove me that afetrlife exits...
There is no way to prove it. It is beyond physical, it is beyond actual scientific tools. They don't even understand atoms completly!
They know so little... But there is your experience which is priceless.
If you are really interested go talk with real experts of the mind... Buddhist monks.
Scientist can only observe the brain that's it! Searching the consciousness in the brain is like searching actors in the TV.
I just wish I could have someone who is a master of this stuff be able to come to my house while I am sleeping, and yank me out of my f-ing body and just prove it to me once and for all. If this is a thing about permission, believe me you have my permission. If this is about, money, believe me if I experienced this and no longer had to fear death, then you can bet your bottom cent that I would happily and gladly pay anything short of putting me out on the streets for this gift.Quote:
Originally Posted by astralboy
Does anyone know if this is possible? Or does anyone know where I can find experts like this? In the meantime so not to seem lazy and disrespectful, I am trying and failing continuously to do everything I can on my end.
How did your friend convince you? It is hard to imagine what proof he offered.
We watched stuff on youtube showing Bill Maher and another atheist talking about how NDEs and everything is just hallucinations that once your dead, your dead. The Randi challange, the stuff on youtube showing taps and ghost hunters and fakes, the fact that Steven Hawking who is believes that once your dead, that is it, and you would think that someone who is in a chair like him with a mind like his, has tried it all in regards to trying to OBE rather than not.Quote:
Originally Posted by sivason
Also many more articles upon articles upon articles that just make it seem impossible to believe unless I finally experience it myself.
Hawking and others being the most brilliant people in the world say it with so much certainty.
Even though they have not died themselves to know any better, it still bothers me.
Especially when this is coming from the most brilliant minds known to man.
It sounds to me like a hard sale to convert you to his religion. Atheists may be angry to be called a religion, but the people I have interacted with, exibit every sign of following a religion. And this includes a hard sale form of attempting to convert people.
It is not my task to teach you about God, but I will spend a couple minutes addressing you. Why do you need to see something that can not be explained to feel like something powerful and amazing is happening? I will give you an example. If the one time you choose to watch a handful of dice be tossed, and all of them come up one, well that can be explained. Say 12 dice, well then roughly once every say 2,000,000 it is logical for it to come up all ones. Logically the one time you looked was simply that 2 millionth time. Right? Isn't that clear? Freak no! No, if the one time I look, 12 dice come up ones, it is a freaking miracle. Now look at something as simple as a fruit tree. The chances of a random cloud of hydrogen, become a cherry tree has to be way less than 2 million to one. So why not accept it as a miracle? Take a serious look around, and see how perfectly the universe has become. Contemplate everything you know about water. If it was any different, then life would probably not work. So hydrogen can become oxygen in the heart of a star. Then it happens to form a chemical when combined with more hydrogen, that is the most wonderfully perfect chemical for life anyone could dream of. Because we can understand how it ends up happening, it is the amazing construct, that we analyze with science that should give you faith (science should enhance faith, not remove it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwfjdraw
You don't understand. A projection in the physical dimension is very difficult. And even when you do it you percieve much more than with your physical eyes.
You can see the place, your room for exemple, but in the same time you see its past, its future, and all the probabilities possible. It is even possible that you don't see matter as matter but only energy. People who ask that prof are totaly ignorant about what matter is.
I wish I could have someone who master this too to prove me that I'm meat and that my conscioussness is mortal,
that there is nothing after the death of the body :D I never find that person... And there is no man in this world who know for sure that there is nothing after.
You see it depends what you want to see. The people who don't believe in it search things that goes with their beliefs. They will only read the things that contradict afterlife. The people who believe find proofs every day of the afterlife.
But if you want to just have an astral projection, lucid dream, out of body experience you don't have to search a "master".
There is WILD techniques. Or Deild. The technique is the same for everyone. But what you do with it and your comprehension of your experiences will prove much thing to you. It is a bad idea to ask people to do things for you. Be your master. Let your experiences be your teacher.
What Wild Techniques?.
WILD = wake induced lucid dreaming... Its just a dream.
Now OBE is something different. I had for example yesterday three OBE in about 1.5 hour. I don't use imagination at all. I use relaxation of body(second nature after nearly 30 years of autogenic training) and concentration on being(existence) only. When the concentration and relaxation is right then separation is possible. I feel it like there is second body permeating physical one. I usualy don't wait to spontaneous separation, because waiting leads me into thoughtless meditation with closed senses. As I feel second body I simply start to roll out of body, or sit up, or float up... Rolling is for me simplest and most effective method going out.