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      If Astral Projection is a Lucid Dream so why ...

      Hey I would like to know...

      If Astral Projection is a Lucid Dream so why when I'm relaxed, and concentred on my computer screen I feel sometimes floating or balancing outside my body, but Im not asleep ... ?

      Thanks

      Nature, without nature's source, would not last a moment.
      Your life, like your dreams expresses one thing, and one thing only, your state of consciousness.

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      A feeling of floating outside your body would be more like an out of body-experience than an astral projection. Anyway, to get to your point: there is no way to tell with certainty if astral projection is the same as lucid dreaming. And there is also no telling if out of body-experiences are real or not. Personally, I believe what you are experiencing is just your brain fooling you. It has been known to happen that people often feel things that aren't really there. That is just my opinion though, nobody can judge what it is better than yourself. I hope this helps

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      I'm on who strongly believes that hallucinations is a word that should be banned until humans understand more about the connection between our physical and spiritual aspects. The brain is nothing but a filter, which filters out sensory input based on what we deem as "normal." Anything that happens is real, I don't believe anything can actually happen that isn't "real," because once it happens, it has existed--thus can be subjectively considered "real" by the person experiencing it.

      I think what astralboy experienced is a moment where his brain could not censor an experience of which he felt. Perhaps it could have been some form of ESP, such as bi-location, remote viewing, soul projection, OBE, deep trance, etc.

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      You can have a lucid dream only while you asleep. But you can have OBE during meditation, when you are not asleep, when you alter state of your brain to state in which OBE is possible.

      And nobody can say for sure if OBE/AP exists or not, or if LD=OBE, since it was not proved either way yet. It's best to make your own opinion based on your own experiences.

      *Moved to Beyond dreaming*

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      Member astralboy's Avatar
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      Thanks for your answers.
      But I think more like gab and neo1906 because I think we are much more than just meat (brains)...

      Just one exemple : SCIENCE say that LOVE is just a chemical reaction. I say Wrong.
      YES, brain "interpret" and "create" a chemical reaction for the phisical body because it need to feel it, to understand it, but THE LOVE is too difficult to understand for Us and science now. It's too easy to say its just a chemical reaction... They need to look further.

      The same for "drugs", they say drugs make you hallucinate because of the brain's chemical reaction...
      But maybe drugs make change of the brain, and because of this we can see "other dimensions" and this dimension at the same time ... and they call this simply halluciantion. BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THIS.
      For me the brain is just an Interpreter for the phisical body, not the cause, but just an effect of the spirit.

      I hope my english is understantable lol

      What do you think ?
      And do you feel this sensation too sometimes ? (out of body feelings when you are focused on something)

      Thanks
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      Nature, without nature's source, would not last a moment.
      Your life, like your dreams expresses one thing, and one thing only, your state of consciousness.

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      Quote Originally Posted by astralboy View Post
      Thanks for your answers.
      But I think more like gab and neo1906 because I think we are much more than just meat (brains)...

      Just one exemple : SCIENCE say that LOVE is just a chemical reaction. I say Wrong.
      YES, brain "interpret" and "create" a chemical reaction for the phisical body because it need to feel it, to understand it, but THE LOVE is too difficult to understand for Us and science now. It's too easy to say its just a chemical reaction... They need to look further.

      The same for "drugs", they say drugs make you hallucinate because of the brain's chemical reaction...
      But maybe drugs make change of the brain, and because of this we can see "other dimensions" and this dimension at the same time ... and they call this simply halluciantion. BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THIS.
      For me the brain is just an Interpreter for the phisical body, not the cause, but just an effect of the spirit.

      I hope my english is understantable lol

      What do you think ?
      And do you feel this sensation too sometimes ? (out of body feelings when you are focused on something)

      Thanks
      I wouldn't say that love is just a chemical reaction. I agree that that would be an understatement. Although I would say that it is most likely a combination of all kinds of complicated chemical reactions. But well, I am a really scientific person myself. It doesn't really matter, any opinion or view is fine until one of them has been proven, and conclusive proof is rare, if at all occurring.
      From time to time, I get some kind of out of body-sensation. It's usually while meditating that I feel weightless, or like I am falling. It's quite awesome

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      Quote Originally Posted by astralboy
      The same for "drugs", they say drugs make you hallucinate because of the brain's chemical reaction...
      But maybe drugs make change of the brain, and because of this we can see "other dimensions" and this dimension at the same time ... and they call this simply halluciantion. BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THIS.
      For me the brain is just an Interpreter for the phisical body, not the cause, but just an effect of the spirit.
      There are a few theories on why psychedelics do what they do. The "official" explanation is the increase of serotonin causes hallucinations, but a lot of people who use them think that it turns on certain parts of the brain that usually aren't used and turns off other parts. It's possible that they could both be right.

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      So that feeling of floating is an OBE? Because on occasion I get this feeing that I'm floating out of my seat and everything in the room gets really small as though I were viewing it from afar.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Prancingwolf View Post
      So that feeling of floating is an OBE? Because on occasion I get this feeing that I'm floating out of my seat and everything in the room gets really small as though I were viewing it from afar.
      Floating feeling can be many things. By itself, it doesn't define OBE, I think.

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      Call it what you will, but dream control methods work exactly the same during an OBE as they do in dreams. As far as I'm concerned, to me that means they're the same thing.
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      Well, if OBE=LD actually depends on how you define OBE. For example, when you DEILD, it can sometimes feel like you roll out of your body. Some people would call that an OBE, but it's just a lucid dream really. However, there have also been people who underwent surgery, and saw everything that happened (and even remembered things the surgeon said and did). That would also be called an OBE, and it is (most likely) not the same as a lucid dream.
      So if OBE=LD not only depends on individual belief, it also depends on how you define 'OBE'

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      The term OBE is so generic. It just means an experience of being out of your body. Some OBE may be magical or mystical, but a dream of being out of body, is still an experience, so it is an OBE.

      I do personally think some events are mystical in nature, but what Cusp says is very true. In the astral realms (be they really or mental) the means of control and motion are the same as skills used in LDing. Either that means AP that I experience is a form of LD, or as I take it, that there is more to LDing than is apperent, and it is related to AP on some basic level.
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      For me our physical reality is an OBE in a sense. Because an OBE means that your awareness is outside your body, but your awareness is never IN the body in the first place!
      It's only directed there. It's qute interesting that the best explanation of our reality that fits the model of physics, is that it's virtual!

      Think of it like a videogame, let's say a super vivid Grand Theft Auto but with more information and rules than just a simple videogame, but our reality works in the same way.

      So if we experienced a world with stable rules and believed what we observed was real, then we would also say that our expeirence in that world is what explains everything around us, and in a sense that is true, it does explain the world you are in by then! But there are different rules when it comes to Grand Theft Auto than if you look at Pacman!

      The same goes for lucid dreaming, there are different rules when it comes to our physical reality than when it comes to dreaming! It basically like switching what "TV-Screen" you are focusing on.

      To divide these games into groups to make it easier to see what reality we talk about, we just call all the realities in a higher frequency than our physical dimension "astral".

      When we talk about OBE we usually talk about the experience of switching our consciousness to a world were the physical reality looks the same, but you are no longer bound to your physical body but you still recieve the same information, sort of like a freelook feature in a game. But an OBE is simple every experience you have! Because you are never in the body in the first place you only direct your awareness to it and because of the ego "subconscious, memories and emotions" we create the illusion of being dependent of the body.

      By experiencing the first kind of association of OBE that I talked about we can prove that our consciousness is more than just a chemical in the brain.

      So what Lucid dreaming and astral projection have in common that makes them "the same" is that they are both induced when you shift your consciousness from this world to another frequency.
      What makes them different is the different definitions and meanings that people assign the terms. But in a sense they are the same because it is very hard to define what is information that's just information of your previous experience and what's new.

      Thanks for reading And here is a fun little video about dimensions: Spirit Science 7 ~ Dimensions - YouTube
      Last edited by MasterMind; 12-09-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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      When I have experienced OBE's what I see around me in the house is really similar to what exists, but that is because it is the reality I experienced every day. Something similar happens around the house, but when I walk away from there, what I see is very different from reality. My conclusion is that during the development of OB E's what is experienced is nothing but random scenes such as those that occur in non-lucid dreams.
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      You're on an Astral Plane when you dream. So it's different states of awareness.
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      I am totally exceptic.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Astralent View Post
      You're on an Astral Plane when you dream. So it's different states of awareness.
      Does anyone think that we project every time we dream we just cannot remember the "leaving" part. I also believe that I am somewhere else when I LD.
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      Hi Astralboy,

      (spyguy, neo1906, gab, woodstock, Prancingwolf, Cusp, sivason, MasterMind, sanctispiritus, Astralent and Zalibar).

      Here is an interesting paragraph on page 132 of Leaving the Body by Scott Rogo. Most of the great projectors of the past were also lucid dreamers. . Many of them even learned the art of astral projection as a by-product of their experiments in dream control.

      Just why this curious relationship exists is not clear. There is good reason to believe that unconscious factors play an important role in the ability to leave the body;

      perhaps learning conscious control of ones unconscious mental processes is a critical factor in the ability to produce OBEs.This theory is supported by the fact that people who try to induce lucid dreaming also produce OBEs quite accidentally.

      As mentioned earlier,

      Sylvan Muldoon, Hugh Callaway, and many others claimed that at least some of their OBEs were induced through the manipulation of lucid dreaming. (...)

      Here is mor on book.

      http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/leaving-body-136732/
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      this is one of those answers that can not be proven to other people right now unfortunately. either the information about astral projection makes sense to you and you agree with it, or you have personal experiences of your own to validate if for yourself. there really is no way for someone else to confirm what happens to you. i personally feel like astral projection is all about getting your own answers and that for me is the most important reason to even study it.
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      hey MasterMind i just got done watching that youtube vid. haven't seen that series yet thanks. lots of good info there.
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      I am glad that you liked it Runeword. Spirituality combined with science shouldn't be viewed in duality, but in unity.

      To do that spirtuality need to use the tools of science to improve and science need to use the tools of spirituality to improve.

      And I am so jealous that you haven't watched it yet! I have seen them all o. O However there will be a new video this Monday I think!
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      Quote Originally Posted by neo1906 View Post
      I'm on who strongly believes that hallucinations is a word that should be banned until humans understand more about the connection between our physical and spiritual aspects. The brain is nothing but a filter, which filters out sensory input based on what we deem as "normal." Anything that happens is real, I don't believe anything can actually happen that isn't "real," because once it happens, it has existed--thus can be subjectively considered "real" by the person experiencing it.

      I think what astralboy experienced is a moment where his brain could not censor an experience of which he felt. Perhaps it could have been some form of ESP, such as bi-location, remote viewing, soul projection, OBE, deep trance, etc.

      I strongly agree with the first paragraph of your post. The word hallucination is used to dismiss as unreal something that is obviously real in its own right and might even bear most of the marks of "reality" we associate with the waking world. "Hallucinations" can reportedly include experiences that in many ways seem more real than so-called reality. Clearly no sharp distinction can be drawn between "dream" and "reality" as they causally influence each other; they're different sorts of reality at best. More than that though, claims of shared dreams and dream-like experiences that intersect the "real" world--sometimes in empirically confirmable ways--suggest that "dreams" and "reality" are on a continuum. I incline to think reality consists of dreams and reified dreams.
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      Quote Originally Posted by neo1906 View Post
      I'm on who strongly believes that hallucinations is a word that should be banned until humans understand more about the connection between our physical and spiritual aspects. The brain is nothing but a filter, which filters out sensory input based on what we deem as "normal." Anything that happens is real, I don't believe anything can actually happen that isn't "real," because once it happens, it has existed--thus can be subjectively considered "real" by the person experiencing it.

      I think what astralboy experienced is a moment where his brain could not censor an experience of which he felt. Perhaps it could have been some form of ESP, such as bi-location, remote viewing, soul projection, OBE, deep trance, etc.
      I'd go even farther. I think the word hallucination might even be dangerous, and the words dream and imagination as well. I think the vernacular senses of these terms introduce potentially dangerous ideas about the ethics (or even just the pragmatics) of dreaming. Some people on dreamviews describe engaging in behaviors during their lucids that they'd never approve of during waking reality; that seems very unwise to me.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Astralent View Post
      You're on an Astral Plane when you dream. So it's different states of awareness.
      That's an assumption without any logic on it. What do you consider a state of awareness, and what reasons do you have to define astral projection as an experience that differs from lucid dreaming? So far, there's proof of the last, and none of the first. Besides, this article is made of assumptions, so nothing really that can be discussed objectively. Pardon if I sound offensive, but I don't really get why people have to tie dreaming into supernatural concepts. The mere fact that we would take something we clearly not yet understand, and put concepts and entities which go on support by substance dualism, makes it sound like people love to came up with explanations that make no sense. I'm of opinion that it sure is fun to wonder "why not", but when the why not reaches a point where we weave dreams into astral projection and take the last as a "real experience", just because people choose to believe it so...

      Quote Originally Posted by gab View Post
      And nobody can say for sure if OBE/AP exists or not, or if LD=OBE, since it was not proved either way yet. It's best to make your own opinion based on your own experiences.
      How can you prove negatives? The fact that AP wasn't proven true makes it automatically located in the realm of the unknowable or not true, due lack of back up evidence. Means there's no valid justification to even point at it. And yes, AP is proven false from the very first moment you look into substance dualism 0o

      The OBE discussion seems rather interesting though, I'll be sure to give a good read on the subject in order to keep up with the discussion
      Last edited by zoth00; 01-16-2013 at 11:51 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by nito89 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      You have to face lucid dreams as cooking:
      Stick it in the microwave and hope for the best?
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      Ever heard of the phantom limb effect? i think it's something like that.

      In short. amputees would still feel pain in the body parts that where missing. So for example:
      If you would lay a fake hand on the place the person would lay his or her hand. And hit it with a hammer. The person then would experience pain as if it where his/ her own hand.

      I think OBE and such is something like that because of sleep paralysis your brain is just messing up and placing the feeling of your body elsewhere.

      There is an experiment for this that really works:

      1. Purchase a realistic but fake arm/hand
      - Sit at table with one hand resting on the table, the other beneath the table.
      - Position the fake arm/hand on the table in the corresponding position as though both hands/arms are resting on the table.
      - Have associate tap both real hand that is beneath table and the fake hand in synchrony as you watch the fake hand.
      - Notice how sensations appear to originate from the fake hand/arm.

      2. Carry out the same on naïve associate.
      - Once the effect has been achieved for a while, pull out previously hidden hammer and hit the fake arm/hand.

      Phantom Limb Pain - Ramachandran Method, Mirror Box
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