Astral Projection and shared dreaming is nonsense

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Originally Posted by Zoth

You know what's the ironic part? You use words like "correlation" and "causation", which are typical of the scientific method. Yes, the very same method you're avoiding to use when displaying your belief in nonphysical realities (which you can't prove in ANY way. Literally.).

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VinceFields usage of correlation and causation was correct, and appropriate. But maybe the one thing that could unite your views is if everybody drop the concept "non-physical".

From my perspective there can be no such thing as "non-physicality"; everything that exists is physical. But whereas some parts of the physical world are generally accepted as physical, other things have so far proven too elusive to fit into the category "physical". Consciousness is one such thing.

It is reasonable to assume that the current level of understanding, of all there is, is quite lacking in many ways, and that the future will bring many more experiences into the realm of the physical - including consciousness, and dreams, and astral projections.

If your current theory of the universe maintains that there are only three dimensions, and that we already know practically everything there is to know, then reconciling dream experiences, and OBE's and physical reality may be impossible. But that does not mean that the universe follows your theory ...

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

VinceFields usage of correlation and causation was correct, and appropriate. But maybe the one thing that could unite your views is if everybody drop the concept "non-physical".

From my perspective there can be no such thing as "non-physicality"; everything that exists is physical. But whereas some parts of the physical world are generally accepted as physical, other things have so far proven too elusive to fit into the category "physical". Consciousness is one such thing.

It is reasonable to assume that the current level of understanding, of all there is, is quite lacking in many ways, and that the future will bring many more experiences into the realm of the physical - including consciousness, and dreams, and astral projections.

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I think the term "nonphysical" is appropriate if by "physical" we are referring to that which is of our current physical dimension, whereas any other dimension of experience beyond this dimension (dream dimensions, astral dimensions, etc) can be considered nonphysical because they take place in realms of experience that are not this physical world. If I have an OBE and I find myself in a heavenly realm conversing with a higher spiritual being, it seems more fitting to say this is a nonphysical experience, as my consciousness is attuned to a dimension that is not the physical world. There is nothing "physical" about the experience aside from the corresponding neurological effects that may be taking place within the brain. During OBEs we are essentially shifting from the physical dimension into dimensions of reality which, from our physical point of view, are necessarily "nonphysical." It seems similar to a fish wanting to label the land and the sky "the ocean."

One point Zoth was making, and which I agree with, is the impossibility of two distinct worlds interacting in any way at all, if they are not both representatives of the same more general category. If the physical world is made out of matter, and the "non-physical" world is made out of something completely different, then those two worlds should not be able to affect each other at all. It is only if there is some common substrate that communication between the two worlds may take place (at least according to my current level of understanding).

I prefer to label the common substrate "the physical universe" or words to similar effect - possibly because I am a physicist and want to be able to cast my interest on all kinds of experiences, without excluding anything a priori.

I do acknowledge that there is a kind of tradition for labelling astral experiences etc. "non-physical", but I also believe that, given enough time, physicists may arrive at a level of knowledge where astral projections and dreams are fully explainable within the laws of physics. These laws of physics will probably not resemble the currently predominating batch all that much, but they will have evolved from these.

I believe it is quite possible that the physical world emerges from the substance of nonphysical reality, and that the energetic substance of the nonphysical interpenetrates the physical, thus allowing the interaction that many experience and label "paranormal." In fact, it seems to be all the same fundamental substance, both the physical and "nonphysical," simply existing at different rates of movement or vibration. Many call this fundamental substance "consciousness," and I wouldn't disagree. My experience and intuition tell me that everything experienced within my consciousness is actually an aspect of my consciousness. Similar to how a molecule of water in the ocean is its own molecule and yet one with the sea, the ocean being the greater system of consciousness and the molecule being our individuated point of consciousness.

I don't believe the laws governing nonphysical reality can ever be accurately defined by the laws that govern the physical because the physical seems to be a subset of the nonphysical and is grossly limited as compared to the greater reality. It's like describing all of the processes of the body only using language that describes the growth of a fingernail.

I agree with your first paragraph, but I don't believe that the "physical" world is a subset of the whole. I rather tend to believe it is an imperfect view of the whole. I.e. there is much more to the "physical" world, than we are generally able to perceive.

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

I agree with your first paragraph, but I don't believe that the "physical" world is a subset of the whole. I rather tend to believe it is an imperfect view of the whole. I.e. there is much more to the "physical" world, than we are generally able to perceive.

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Hmmm interesting! The way I am using the term "physical" here is more in line with the standard view of the physical world as that which we are able to perceive with the normal physical senses. But I agree that it is possible that our perceptions of the physical world are perhaps a bit suppressed and that there may be more to the physical dimension of experience than what we know. I generally think in terms of expanding the mind to perceive that which is beyond the physical dimension rather than perceiving aspects of the physical dimension that we may be unaware of, so this is a new way of seeing things for me. Thank you for this, it's not every day that someone introduces me to a way of thinking that makes sense!

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Originally Posted by Barry

There is no possible way shared dreaming or astral projection is possible.

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If this is your personal belief it's perfectly okay, but when you create a thread imposing your truth to people who believe in it makes no sense at all. When something is not proved to be posible or unposible it's a personal belief and that is okay. It's like two kids deciding which imaginary friend is stronger than the other.

You can find people that believe in shared dreaming or astral projection guillable, that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't make it true, it's just an opinion.

My beliefs simply don't cross with yours and yours don't with mine, arguing about it makes no sense at all, unless you've tried to experience it and failed every time, then your opinion would be valid(understandable)

"All my dreams are lucid since long time now"

How could it be possible?
And if ALL your dreams ARE really LD, when the hell do the brain parts - , and type of neurons that are usually almost turned off while non-lucid dreams - take rest?
Hobson and others have showed on there books and studies that some specific parts of the brain, and a specific type of neuron need to be inactive during dreams to prepare the waking life brain, and that is why we are generally not aware of our dreams.
Lucidity is linked to the re-activation of these parts and neurons while we are dreaming.

So if all of your dreams are lucid (that shows a serious brain disorder to me), how can you not have serious attention disorders when you are awake?

Anyway, about AP/AT/OBE, they are all explainable by a dream like production from the brain, because the brain is a hallucination factory and is absolutely able to produce dreams, AP experiences, OBE, False awakening, SP hypnopompic hallucinations, and it even produces 100% hallucinated perception of our waking life every day by transforming bio-electric inputs into 5 vivid senses.
if you add the fact that there is no way you can prove that non physical plans exists, it is hard to reach any conclusion.

These two points do not prove that Astral plans do not exist, but the the theory that the brain is creating these stuffs by an hallucination based process has a point while non physical plans makes no point.
Even the strong feeling that an experience is deep, real and true can be produced by the brain.
I experienced few shorts but strong travels through salvia divinorium few years ago, which is a strong hallucinogen plant, and that strongly modify the brain chemistry for about 5 minutes by producing very strong hallucinations, multidimensional and fractal hallucinated realms, AND a strong feeling that we are living a very REAL, DEEP, TRUE experience, but the truth is that the brain is just working a very different way and that even the way we think that what we are living is true is an hallucination...
This molecule activate the part of the brain that gives us the feeling that what we are living is really true and essential, the same way AP and OBE COULD activate this sens of "WHAT I AM LIVING RIGHT NOW IS 100% REAL" when we are living such a experience.

I have had few OBE/AP and even if I was persuaded that what I was living was really happening, I am part of those that can not make a big difference between LD and AP/OBE because there is no way to prove it AND that there is a simple explanation for that : the brain can produce this kind of hallucinated experience.

How could I conclude more stuffs?
By living thousands of OBE/AP which will all give me a strong feeling that what I am living is a real stuff ? This way I just can build a strong belief that non physical exists, but it will never be the beginning of a proof, neither a solid and good reason to conclude that I am really living stuffs in another reality.
Even if I can bring back verifiable stuffs, remote viewing + dreams could explain that if I am mind open enough to believe in remote viewing.

Another tricky stuff is to say that every dreams bring us in the Astral Plan....
It sounds like an easy way to avoid any physical and simple explanation, to me.
And if you add the "Reality could be a dream," argument, there is no way left to discuss

Sorry for my broken English.

I haven't had the time nor energy to read through the full paragraphs. Apologies but I skimmed to the bottom and noticed you said;
I will respond and read through the full paragraph should the need arise. Anyway:

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Another tricky stuff is to say that every dream is bringing us in the Astral Plan....
It sounds like an easy way to avoid any physical and simple explanation, to me.

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And my generic reaction to this is that this explanation is certainly tricky stuff (people make it tricky) but it's not an easy way out. In fact, dreams are still left unexplained!
You see there is no physical explanation for dreams. Hence lumping the category of dreaming alongside Astral Projection is STILL not any escape or explanation. And there is certainly not a physical one.

Also you mentioned simple explanation. It occurs to me that maybe the phenomenon that was recently coined as Astral Projection simply has no simple explanations.

" In fact, dreams are still left unexplained! "

I think it would be more correct to say that "dreams are note completly explained".
It makes a big difference.
The production of dream, the structure, the neurological aspect, the fact that the dream is created by the brain are studied.
It is absolutely not like if scientists don't know anything about dreams. they know many things and have several solid theories.
But the fact that the dream is created by the brain have been proved for a long time now.

The two big theories I retain are the cholinergic and the Dopaminergic theories.
Cholinergic theory demonstrated that REM sleep was corelated with the Cholinergic activation.
Dopaminergic theory demonstrated that Dreams are correlated with the cortex and dopaminergic activation.

It is not like Astral theories that are ONLY based on hypothesis, with nothing more than Subjective experiences .
as even the feeling of living a really true thing can be hallucinated by the activation of certain functions of the brain, It's like Astral plans theories are indeed based on nothing solid...
Only belief.

That doesn't prove that AP doesn't exists, but BRAIN VS AP is no like a balanced question, to me

"as even the feeling of living a really true thing can be hallucinated by the activation of certain functions of the brain, It's like Astral plans theories are indeed based on nothing solid..."

Even the feeling of traveling through multi-dimensional gateways of 5-dimensional universes? Can the brain produce it?

I don't believe that the brain produces anything. It only processes and filters.

"even the feeling of living a really true thing can be hallucinated by the activation of certain functions of the brain"

There are so many configurations in which a brain can be while the "inhabitant of that brain" is off in hyperspace. For example; REM sleep. Non-rem sleep dreams. Epilespy (high brain activity) and Death (no brain activity) ALL correlate with virtual realities.

"Even the feeling of traveling through multi-dimensional gateways of 5-dimensional universes? Can the brain produce it?"

I guess it can, because if it can't , you just can't remember it and understand it when you wake up;
Don't underestimate the power of the brain to produce complex subjective experiences.

books about how the brain works are really Loud !!
if the brain was a simple filter and process engine, the thousands of functions established by the very detailed studies on the brain would be mistakes.
it is non sens to me

I mean, it is as simple belief vs hundreds of searchers studying the brain for decades.
if the brain was only a filter processing data (from where?) during dreams, the dreams wouldn't be so correlated to our waking life, and psychological stuffs.
Brain creates the dream, there is no scientific doubt about it, and since it can create dreams, it can create every experience that is dreamlike or real like.
It can do it easily.

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Originally Posted by Kaan

if the brain was only a filter processing data (from where?) during dreams, the dreams wouldn't be so correlated to our waking life, and psychological stuffs.
Brain creates the dream, there is no scientific doubt about it, and since it can create dreams, it can create every experience that is dreamlike or real like.
It can do it easily.

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What if everything is filtered through the brain - dreams and daily experiences alike ... and it all comes from some other place. Some of it goes through in one way, becoming day-experiences, and the rest goes through in another way, becoming night-experiences. Then the measurements done on the day-experiences would be irrelevant for the night-experiences - no matter how many researchers were devoting their time to it - and vice versa. And neither would give the true picture ...

It may be true that there are no "dream scientists" who doubt that dreams are created by the brain. But this only testifies to their closed-mindedness. Because absolutely not a single one of them can prove that dreams are created by the brain! For all we know, dreams may be created by a computer on a distant planet and sent here by technological means beyond our understanding, and implemented into our brains. We shure wouldn't know.

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Originally Posted by Kaan

books about how the brain works are really Loud !!
if the brain was a simple filter and process engine, the thousands of functions established by the very detailed studies on the brain would be mistakes.
it is non sens to me

I mean, it is as simple belief vs hundreds of searchers studying the brain for decades.
if the brain was only a filter processing data (from where?) during dreams, the dreams wouldn't be so correlated to our waking life, and psychological stuffs.

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You are right Kaan. It is my belief vs hundreds of researchers if not 10 times more. It not always easy. At this point I am rejecting any theory of the brain. Including and especially the two theories that you mention.
I will not push this belief on anything but I do think that my 'way' is the only way to really make break-throughs in neuroscience. Simply because rejecting the status quo is a neccesite to actually produce ideas that are novel because they are coming from an completely new angle. :) Just like to share this thought with you :)

Kaan. The brain houses all the 5 senses. Everything points to these 5 senses being intrinsically linked to it's brain function. Everything that I know points to the brain 'reacting' to what comes in to the senses. Hence, my statement that the brain is not producing anything. It is not producing sunlight, audiowaves etc.

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"Even the feeling of traveling through multi-dimensional gateways of 5-dimensional universes? Can the brain produce it?"

I guess it can, because if it can't , you just can't remember it and understand it when you wake up;

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you mean just like the dreams we can't remember nor understand when we wake up? :tonguewiggle:

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Originally Posted by Kaan

"All my dreams are lucid since long time now"

How could it be possible?
And if ALL your dreams ARE really LD, when the hell do the brain parts - , and type of neurons that are usually almost turned off while non-lucid dreams - take rest?
Hobson and others have showed on there books and studies that some specific parts of the brain, and a specific type of neuron need to be inactive during dreams to prepare the waking life brain, and that is why we are generally not aware of our dreams.
Lucidity is linked to the re-activation of these parts and neurons while we are dreaming.

So if all of your dreams are lucid (that shows a serious brain disorder to me), how can you not have serious attention disorders when you are awake?
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Hi, I found this explanation I wrote some time ago to another person. http://i.imgur.com/wd8JmKC.jpg

Its not like my day and night is connected and I never go unconscious. Even if I intend to recall the whole night, its not one long dream. Maximum what I can get is "nrem dream -> loosing consciousness -> appearing in my first rem -> loosing consciousness -> appearing in my next rem -> loosing consciousness - appearing in next rem.. (amount of rem dreams depends how long I am sleeping, usually 4-5) -> morning dreams are usually full of wake ups, short dreams with short wake ups. But I am usually not intending to recall everything, because it is not the most enjoyable thing to do. Most of my nights are full of micro wake ups, I can't even call them wake ups, briefly getting closer to waking state to apply some different logic if needed or when escaping the dream, etc..

So there is time to clean up the memory and it happens between every REM dream, at that time I am unconscious, those are blackouts. However after I just felt asleep, after my n-rem dream, I sometimes can stay conscious for a while and observe the process of going into that blackout. Just fading to absolute darkness, no vision, no sounds, feels like no senses at all.

I gain lucidity every time I enter a dream, I can feel the dream, because it feels different. Also some time ago I tried to quit lucid dreaming, but couldn't, so developed a tricky way to act as an observer, but still even in that case I always know I can intrude into that dream.

Let me know if you want to know more :)

Hmm...who to believe? The thousands of respected Scientists, or some wacky theory by a couple of users on a lucid dream forum? Oh...but your open minded while the thousands of respected scientists are close minded! :cackle:

There's a difference between being open minded, and just simply believing everything you hear without an ounce of proof.

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Originally Posted by Barry

Hmm...who to believe?

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How about not believing anyone, but awaiting that you yourself can settle the matter through your own observations, understanding, and reasoning skills ...?

I agree Voldmer. That is the right statement to make.. Simply appealing to authority because "scientists" have said it. Or because people who frequent a forum have said it. Is both giving power away and letting someone else do your thinking.

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Originally Posted by Voldmer

How about not believing anyone, but awaiting that you yourself can settle the matter through your own observations, understanding, and reasoning skills ...?

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The problem is that in the Dream world, and everything related to the brain, or to any subjective experience, observation is not a good tool to build accurate conclusion, cause the brain is a very very very tricky thing.

Like I said, event the pure conviction that an OBE or whatever is really happening "somewhere else" can be something produced by some brain function.
So if you can not trust what you subjectively observe, neither the feeling of authenticity, and that this is all you have to judge, you can't honestly go further and you must admit that you are just walking on a hypothesis and belief ground.
This belief could be right, as it could be wrong.
Reasoning with limited but known and proved facts is more accurate than dealing with hypothetic ideas, that are not necessary to bring an explanation of the AP/OBE phenomenon when the power of the brain simply does.

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I agree Voldmer. That is the right statement to make.. Simply appealing to authority because "scientists" have said it. Or because people who frequent a forum have said it. Is both giving power away and letting someone else do your thinking.

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How is it 'appealing to authority' by believing in what numerous respected scientists have stated? They have done numerous experiments to come up with there conclusions, not simply based on subjective feelings.

If 100 mechanics tell me my car is broken, I'm not going to bother to check for myself.

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Originally Posted by Barry

How is it 'appealing to authority' by believing in what numerous respected scientists have stated?

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Name one....

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They have done numerous experiments to come up with there conclusions, not simply based on subjective feelings.

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Which experiments? What kind of experiments are we talking about here.

or are you just making these scientists and experiments from the figments of the imagination?

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Originally Posted by Kaan

The problem is that in the Dream world, and everything related to the brain, or to any subjective experience, observation is not a good tool to build accurate conclusion, cause the brain is a very very very tricky thing.

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It sure is! And we use it to conduct scientific experiments, and create scientific theories. Truly worrying!

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Originally Posted by Kaan

Like I said, event the pure conviction that an OBE or whatever is really happening "somewhere else" can be something produced by some brain function.
So if you can not trust what you subjectively observe, neither the feeling of authenticity, and that this is all you have to judge, you can't honestly go further and you must admit that you are just walking on a hypothesis and belief ground.
This belief could be right, as it could be wrong.

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We are in complete agreement. And you can replace the "is really happening" in the above statement with "is really not happening", and it would still be equally true.

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Originally Posted by Kaan

Reasoning with limited but known and proved facts is more accurate than dealing with hypothetic ideas, that are not necessary to bring an explanation of the AP/OBE phenomenon when the power of the brain simply does.

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That is theoretically true. But show me a known or proven fact, and I shall demonstrate to you, why it is in fact just a belief - or based on a belief.

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Originally Posted by Barry

How is it 'appealing to authority' by believing in what numerous respected scientists have stated? They have done numerous experiments to come up with there conclusions, not simply based on subjective feelings.

If 100 mechanics tell me my car is broken, I'm not going to bother to check for myself.

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Your example doesn't apply and make no sense in this thread. What people are doing with astral projection, shared dreaming and lucid dreaming is experimenting with their conciousness, and there's no clear definition from where conciousness comes from. They will probably figure out from where it comes and that could even help us more with lucid dreaming and shared dreaming too.

Do we really need to understand how consciousness is built from the brain, neither if it is built from the brain nor what it is to statue if AP is something happening in a so called non physical plan, or if it is an hallucinated experience like dream are ?
I don't think so.
The question is :
-Is the brain able to elaborate such an hallucinated experience ? Yes it does, AP/OBE are not harder to produce than any (other) dream/lucid dream
-Is there any serious and rigorous way to prove that Astral plan or whatever exists ? No (so far)

So we are stuck

-in one hand we have some kind of experiences (AS/OBE) that have plenty in common with dreams but that some people believe or even claim that it happens in some parallel non physical realities, but without any way of having a proof of it, but their subjective conviction.

-In the other hand, we have a brain that is absolutely able to produces hallucinated perceptions and experiences like AP/OBE since it does it nearly 24/7 when we are awake (from exogenous inputs) or when we dream (from endogenous inputs).

Occam's razor makes me chose the 2nd theory.

A good article some of you should read:

Astral Projection & Out-of-Body Experiences: A Trip to Nowhere

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The simplest and best explanation for out-of-body experiences is that the person is merely fantasizing and dreaming. Because there is no scientific evidence that the soul exists — or for that matter that consciousness can exist outside of the brain — the premise behind astral projection is rejected by scientists.
Practitioners of astral travel insist that it must be real because it seems so vivid, and because some of the experiences are similar, even for people from different cultures. But it's not surprising that many people who try astral projection have similar experiences — after all, that's what the term "guided imagery" is: when an authority (such as a psychologist or astral travel teacher) tells a person what they should expect from the experience. The power of suggestion can be powerful, and a person who is told they will encounter an alien or godlike entity who imparts cosmic wisdom is likely to imagine exactly that.

One strong piece of evidence that the "travel" takes place in the mind is that those who return from out-of-body experiences can't give verifiable details or information about the places they've been or what they've seen.
According to researcher Susan Blackmore, author of "Beyond the Body: An Investigation of Out-of-the-Body Experiences," people who experience astral travel "have been found to score higher on measures of hypnotizability and, in several surveys, on measures of absorption, [a] measure of a person's ability to pay complete attention to something and to become immersed in it, even if it is not real, like a film, play, or imagined event." Out-of-body experiencers are more imaginative, suggestible, and fantasy-prone than average
Though astral projection practitioners are convinced their experiences are real and not merely dreams or fantasies,their evidence is all anecdotal — just as a person who takes peyote or LSD may be truly convinced that they interacted with God, dead people, or angels while in their altered state. It is not a coincidence that drug users refer to a psychedelic experience as a "trip."
Astral projection is an entertaining and harmless pastime that can seem profound, and in some cases even life-changing. But there's no evidence that out-of-body-experiences happen outside the body instead of inside the brain.

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