What the hell was this experience? Help needed...

Even though it happened more than a year ago, literally no day passed without me having thought about it. Today it still bothers me that I don't know the truth and meaning behind this insane experience that was without doubt no ordinary dream. To get to the point, I remember I was in a green field or landscape that looked somewhat heavenly, and all of a sudden something of greater intelligence entered my dream. The only way I can describe this figure is female, childish, and more or less angelic, yet it didn't have any wings. I could've sworn I became lucid or ''aware'' for a brief moment when this angelic figure physically interacted with me by kissing me a few times on the mouth, and I could feel it like it was really happening to me in my waking life. Having had a visitation dream of my mother several months before after she died and my dog 7 years ago, I would describe this experience as a typical visitation dream if only it wasn't for the fact that I have never seen or met this angelic person in my life before. As everything was proceeding like I told, I was very confused and tried to make some sense out of what was going on. But unlike normal dream characters, this one behaved intelligent and didn't speak at all, but only communicated by smiling. It seemed like verbal communication was impossible for both of us, and for some reason I don't remember anything else from the dream besides the things I just wrote. Confusing as it was, it was still a pleasant experience. However, this unknown figure never returned to my dreams ever again despite being in the centre of my thoughts, and not knowing the truth kinda feels like getting hit by a train at full speed...

I never had a true lucid dream before so what do you people think this experience was? A semi-lucid dream, visitation dream, accidental astral projection, or something else?

Sorry about your mom and dog passing. I dont know much about visitations and I have no idea what the purpose was either but maybe the girl made the move to get you lucid or perhaps you were there to be comforted/healed by her in a way since you said she was angelic like.. Do you remember what you were thinking before the dream?

I have met them too. They are not one-dimensional dream characters and they act independently of your intentions. I call them "Number ones" Once when I asked one what it was that is what it told me lol. They are important and I believe they are there to let you know you are progressing. Once I experienced a group of them, they were a "review commitee" reviewing how aware I was becoming. I was not as aware as another dreamer apparently so I was not chosen for what ever they were reviewing me for. I actually stopped having lucid dreams for two years after that. Ask them as many questions as you can, in my experience they are wise, kind and very patient. I think they are real beings, higher forms than we are. That is how they feel to me.

It sounds like you encountered an archetype. That tends to happen at times when your life is turbulent and you need help, so the help comes from inside the unconscious in the form of a personality that seems to be fully formed and have a mind of its own. It might have been an anima figure, though possibly there's an angel archetype - in fact as soon as I wrote that I realized of course there's an angel archetype! Countless people have seen angels.

Here's a very brief article about it: What Are the Jungian Archetypes?

They tacked on the standard disclaimer at the end making it sound like Jung was some kid of nutcase and his ideas have been rejected by modern psychiatry, but the truth is he surpassed Freud and corrected many of Freud's wrongheaded theories which led to a break as you can imagine, and unfortunately modern psychiatry has rejected Jung's work for all the wrong reasons. After looking into it deeply I've come to the conclusion that he's right and it's modern psychiatry that is wrong. But of course opinions vary. I believe the basic reason modern psychiatry rejects him is because he was a visionary (as were all the great individuals who have advanced our understanding), and he understood the mind of the artist, the poet and the introvert, which many therapists etc don't. You have to be one to understand them, and an extravert is generally contemptuous toward the idea that introverts have access to an inner world that they don't. A bit of an oversimplification, but it gets the concept across I hope.

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Originally Posted by DawnEye11

Sorry about your mom and dog passing. I dont know much about visitations and I have no idea what the purpose was either but maybe the girl made the move to get you lucid or perhaps you were there to be comforted/healed by her in a way since you said she was angelic like.. Do you remember what you were thinking before the dream?

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Thanks for the reply. To answer your question, I don't remember anything that day at all. It was just an ordinary day. However, during that period in which it happened I was experiencing a severe dark night of the soul, but it is true that after this dream I started feeling somewhat better. I don't know if it was really an angel, but I described her as ''angelic'' because that was the closest thing she resembled, especially because of the white dress/robe and her pale skin that seemed to ermit a faint light.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

It sounds like you encountered an archetype. That tends to happen at times when your life is turbulent and you need help, so the help comes from inside the unconscious in the form of a personality that seems to be fully formed and have a mind of its own. It might have been an anima figure, though possibly there's an angel archetype - in fact as soon as I wrote that I realized of course there's an angel archetype! Countless people have seen angels.

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Very interesting post, thanks for the reply. I've read about the anima before, but what I have been taught is that the anima or archtype doesn't really have a will of it's own and merely controlled by the subconscious, and it usually only appears when one's feministic and masculine traits are out of balance or something like that (correct me when I'm wrong though).

Archetypes definitely have personalities of their own. Whenever anyone encounters one in a dream or a waking vision they always say it feels fundamentally different from just a dream character and knows things that the dreamer doesn't know. They appear in times of crisis, because the unconscious is attempting to help ease your pain or get you through whatever transition you're going through. Essentially they're there to help you transform in whatever way is necessary.

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merely controlled by the subconscious

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You do realize that you are also "merely controlled by the subconscious", right? If you take out the word merely and add the words unfathomably powerful in front of subconscious then you're getting there. Consciousness is a new phenomenon that existed only very partially in some of the higher animals before humankind evolved, and like everything else in the mind, its origin is in the unconscious. Your thoughts bubble up from the deep unconscious into conscious awareness. Many people have this mistaken notion that the subconscious is just a small and ineffectual thing when it's more like the ocean and the conscious awareness is like a ship buffeted by it that you exist on. When people have powerful experiences that they label as supernatural or religious it's because they encountered something from the depths of the unconscious, which seems to be coming from "out there somewhere" rather than inside the mind, because people mistake the small corner of the mind that's conscious for the entirety of mind.

Just to add - I see why you would say an archetype only appears when feminine and masculine traits are out of balance. That is one circumstance when it can happen, and developing wholeness does involve balancing them. I think you're talking more specifically about the anima though - that's the female component of the male psyche and is concerned with the balancing of masculine and feminine traits. Other archetypes serve different functions.

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Originally Posted by Morgoth

Thanks for the reply. To answer your question, I don't remember anything that day at all. It was just an ordinary day. However, during that period in which it happened I was experiencing a severe dark night of the soul, but it is true that after this dream I started feeling somewhat better. I don't know if it was really an angel, but I described her as ''angelic'' because that was the closest thing she resembled, especially because of the white dress/robe and her pale skin that seemed to ermit a faint light.

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No problem.: )What do you mean by dark night of the soul? I think I have an idea of what you mean though. Even if it wasn't an angel it seems like the purpose could be comfort after all. About the archetype thing I find it interesting as well. However, I do believe in the existence of other entities besides us In the universe too though. That's not to say that the mind isn't powerful enough to create a smart D.C. either. I want to say more but my battery is going to run out on my phone now.^^"

Hey DawnEye, I basically agree with you. I follow Jung, who said that while his extensive clinical experience has shown that entities can only communicate with us through the psyche, there's no way to know whether those entities are purely generated by the psyche itself or if it's acting as a medium through which they can communicate with us. But most people completely underestimate the power and range of the psyche. You and I exist completely within it after all, if you think about it. As thinking feeling beings I mean. Your consciousness - what you think of as yourself - exists only as a complex web of thoughts and feelings arising from your own mind, which of course is embedded within a physical body. We know there's 'room' for more than one personality within a human mind - for instance some people have multiple personalities.

And the archetypes are exactly that - other beings in a sense that exist within your unconscious mind. That doesn't mean that they're all there fully formed all the time like the gods on Mount Olympus. Only one (or maybe a few? Not sure) at a time can constellate (as it's called) or manifest, and it acts as your 'other' for purposes of dialogue - a balancing factor that communicates with you and tries to share wisdom or to provide a necessary balance to some wrong attitude that you have toward life. But there are templates for many archetypes, and whichever one you need at a given time can come into being for you.

Sorry, I feel kind of weird harping on and on about this stuff all over the board lately, but I'm fascinated by it and discussing it really helps me come to terms and understand it better. Plus I think Jung is a modern genius of discovery in a lineage that includes Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein etc, but that he hasn't been given his due thanks to unfortunate politics within the psychological community. I guess I want to spread the word and get people interested. Plus my interest in lucid dreaming led me to study the unconscious, since it is the source for dreams after all, and Jung is our foremost explorer and explainer of it.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hey DawnEye, I basically agree with you. I follow Jung, who said that while his extensive clinical experience has shown that entities can only communicate with us through the psyche, there's no way to know whether those entities are purely generated by the psyche itself or if it's acting as a medium through which they can communicate with us. But most people completely underestimate the power and range of the psyche. You and I exist completely within it after all, if you think about it. As thinking feeling beings I mean. Your consciousness - what you think of as yourself - exists only as a complex web of thoughts and feelings arising from your own mind, which of course is embedded within a physical body. We know there's 'room' for more than one personality within a human mind - for instance some people have multiple personalities.

And the archetypes are exactly that - other beings in a sense that exist within your unconscious mind. That doesn't mean that they're all there fully formed all the time like the gods on Mount Olympus. Only one (or maybe a few? Not sure) at a time can constellate (as it's called) or manifest, and it acts as your 'other' for purposes of dialogue - a balancing factor that communicates with you and tries to share wisdom or to provide a necessary balance to some wrong attitude that you have toward life. But there are templates for many archetypes, and whichever one you need at a given time can come into being for you.

Sorry, I feel kind of weird harping on and on about this stuff all over the board lately, but I'm fascinated by it and discussing it really helps me come to terms and understand it better. Plus I think Jung is a modern genius of discovery in a lineage that includes Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein etc, but that he hasn't been given his due thanks to unfortunate politics within the psychological community. I guess I want to spread the word and get people interested. Plus my interest in lucid dreaming led me to study the unconscious, since it is the source for dreams after all, and Jung is our foremost explorer and explainer of it.

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It's alright. : D I think it's great you like building and discussing your knowledge of it. Yeah,there is no way to tell for sure and I was actually thinking of multiple personalities when I read what you wrote too. When I watched a documentary about multiple personalities I recall seeing one awakened at a time too but In dreams I don't see how it would be impossible for more to be awakened if it's related.Since the dreamer would also be presently aware while the archetype is present.It's unfortunate he didn't get the credit he deserved but at least he's not completely forgotten.Your also doing him and his research good by spreading the word. Nonetheless, I wonder how archetypes's would form without the influence of the current society and the world. Would they still be heroes,angels,etc? Would their roles still be constant? In addition, i think it's possible multiple personalities could be a person with false memories too, like you get in dreams. So idk if comparing the two is really right

Hey - DawnEye know you from somewhere?? :cheeky:

(Sorry - couldn't resist!)

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Originally Posted by DawnEye11

I don't see how it would be impossible for more to be awakened if it's related.Since the dreamer would also be presently aware while the archetype is present.

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I just remembered, Jung talked to 2 of them at one point in active imagination, which is the way he used to get in contact with them. It's a lot like a WILD, except he claims he remains awake the whole time and has powerful daydreams. I suspect at least sometimes he slipped into a full WILD.

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Originally Posted by DawnEye11

I wonder how archetypes's would form without the influence of the current society and the world. Would they still be heroes,angels,etc? Would their roles still be constant?

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I think current society affects the way they appear to us, but the basic underlying personality would still be the same. For instance, in Jung's day the archetype for wisdom tended to appear as a wise old man, but these days it seems a lot of people are getting wisdom from young females - I suspect an Anime influence. I think the appearance of the character just spontaneously happens in the dream or the vision or whatever, the same way normal dream characters seem to be spontaneously generated in a dream. The real core of it though is the message or the idea it's there to communicate. The character will take any form that would seem appropriate to you. I know people will cycle through various anima or animus characters for example. They all represent the person's soul - their connection to God or to the deepest innermost Self as Jung termed it, but sometimes it might be represented by a girl you knew years ago, sometimes maybe by - who knows? Maybe an Anime character. An Anime Anima! :cackle: Would be even funnier if it's also an Animal - but then we're getting into Furry territory - just no. Not gonna go there. :shakehead:

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Originally Posted by DawnEye11

In addition, i think it's possible multiple personalities could be a person with false memories too, like you get in dreams. So idk if comparing the two is really right

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Yeah, I don't think it's really the same thing, I just meant it as an illustration that the mind can definitely contain more than one personality at a time. I think it's a lot like if you have a dialogue in your mind with somebody who isn't there, you know? Your mind is able to sort of re-create their personality and supply answers that they might give, that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. It's a way the mind can help balance out your one-sided ideas or attitudes. This is something that happens anyway when you talk to other people, but the mind can do it if there are no other people around to talk with. I suppose this is really in a way what dreams are too - stories your mind creates to help you work things out (sometimes - though at times of course they're pretty random). The mind seems to work primarily through stories and dialogue. So it makes sense that it would supply these more powerful and seemingly intelligent characters when you really need some serious help. That's when the inner Self takes note of your problem and decides it's going to help you out I suppose.

Wow see - having this dialogue with you has helped me work some of my ideas out better already!

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hey - DawnEye know you from somewhere?? :cheeky:

(Sorry - couldn't resist!)



I just remembered, Jung talked to 2 of them at one point in active imagination, which is the way he used to get in contact with them. It's a lot like a WILD, except he claims he remains awake the whole time and has powerful daydreams. I suspect at least sometimes he slipped into a full WILD.




I think current society affects the way they appear to us, but the basic underlying personality would still be the same. For instance, in Jung's day the archetype for wisdom tended to appear as a wise old man, but these days it seems a lot of people are getting wisdom from young females - I suspect an Anime influence. I think the appearance of the character just spontaneously happens in the dream or the vision or whatever, the same way normal dream characters seem to be spontaneously generated in a dream. The real core of it though is the message or the idea it's there to communicate. The character will take any form that would seem appropriate to you. I know people will cycle through various anima or animus characters for example. They all represent the person's soul - their connection to God or to the deepest innermost Self as Jung termed it, but sometimes it might be represented by a girl you knew years ago, sometimes maybe by - who knows? Maybe an Anime character. An Anime Anima! :cackle: Would be even funnier if it's also an Animal - but then we're getting into Furry territory - just no. Not gonna go there. :shakehead:



Yeah, I don't think it's really the same thing, I just meant it as an illustration that the mind can definitely contain more than one personality at a time. I think it's a lot like if you have a dialogue in your mind with somebody who isn't there, you know? Your mind is able to sort of re-create their personality and supply answers that they might give, that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. It's a way the mind can help balance out your one-sided ideas or attitudes. This is something that happens anyway when you talk to other people, but the mind can do it if there are no other people around to talk with. I suppose this is really in a way what dreams are too - stories your mind creates to help you work things out (sometimes - though at times of course they're pretty random). The mind seems to work primarily through stories and dialogue. So it makes sense that it would supply these more powerful and seemingly intelligent characters when you really need some serious help. That's when the inner Self takes note of your problem and decides it's going to help you out I suppose.

Wow see - having this dialogue with you has helped me work some of my ideas out better already!

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XD lol I was slow to get that one but it was funny when I got it.
Oh, it's good that you remembered. Having powerful daydreams while awake.That does remind me of WILD. Not only that but the time I was at a Tulpa forum reading up on it.The people who are forming their tulpa communicate in a similar way,with active imagination.

Ok,so common personalitys,random forms and they always contain some influence from society. I guess I was thinking about how it would work out as a closed experiment too. That way it'd be easier to tell if there is a collective conscience or info passed on from the past. I recently had a dream with animal/beast type people. Their actually pretty cool but yeah, the dark side of the internet has ruined furries/animals.:laughhard: I agree with much of what you've written so I'm not sure what else to add. Anyways I'm glad our dialogue has helped you sort your ideas. ^w^ Thx for teaching me more about what archetypes are. Even if it reminded of things I learned before I still find it helpful and slightly different. It's also interesting to look at it from a psychological type perspective.

One thing to understand about it - the only time you'll encounter an archetype or any figure from the unconscious psyche is when you're going through some kind of crisis. They don't just hang out all the time to chit-chat, you know? Sort of like the police - when you need them you're glad they're there for you, but normally they don't interfere in your life.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

One thing to understand about it - the only time you'll encounter an archetype or any figure from the unconscious psyche is when you're going through some kind of crisis. They don't just hang out all the time to chit-chat, you know? Sort of like the police - when you need them you're glad they're there for you, but normally they don't interfere in your life.

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I get that part.However, that doesn't mean that Jung didn't have a way of contacting them right?

When he contacted them he was undergoing a huge life crisis. In fact it was just after his big break with Freud and he had no idea what was going to happen - if he was going to become a success on his own or just sink into oblivion. He also wasn't sure if his theories were right or not, but of course his many talks with archetypal characters and other experiences that he detailed in The Red Book convinced him that they were.

There is another way to encounter them, but I hesitate to bring it up because it basically involves voluntarily creating a crisis in your life. It's to undergo what he called Individuation, which means to become consciously aware of the archetypes - or at least the main ones - the shadow, the anima (or animus for a woman) and the Self. Individuation is the ultimate goal of Jungian analysis. I should also add that it's something to be done only in the second half of life - age 40 or over. Younger people can encounter archetypes through crisis or trauma, and that's usually a deeply healing experience - but apparently deliberately trying to invoke them through Individuation is only for the mature.

The way to do it is to develop your conscious awareness of your own faults - projections of your character flaws onto other people, and your denials. Also you develop the opposite traits to the ones you habitually have - if you're typically a masculine man you would get in touch with your feminine side, or vice versa. First you'll begin encountering shadow figures in dreams, and after that anima or animus figures. If you get through that then you'll constellate the Self and encounter it, which is like encountering God almighty in person. But a warning - it can be a lot like the Old Testament God of fire and brimstone and vengeance. I mean ultimately its intentions are positive for you, but it's just that archetypes are uncompromising. They're the crisis team you know, so no nonsense - they're there to get the job done. They're not always cruel or frightening, but they can become that way very quickly.

I think of it as being like a video game where you first tackle the shadow level and at the end you have to beat the boss then you progress to the anima level etc.

None of this is pleasant. Most people are incapable of admitting their own projections and denials to begin with. And the dreams are generally reported as being nightmarish, though not all of them. Jung's active imagination sessions were terrible - he kept experiencing things that had him weeping openly and sobbing in horror. Often they took place in what seemed to be hell, with swarming black snakes all over the walls etc. He kept doing it though because he knew well that his own patients had gone through months or sometimes years of hellish scenarios like this but eventually been cured, and the ones who lost their nerve didn't get cured. But not all the dreams were so bleak - many of them were filled with bliss and beauty, So I suppose it's like a mix of heaven and hell. And that makes sense to me - it's no easy task to transform yourself, it would require going through hell and revisiting it many times in the process. And when there's some progress there would be blissful dreams.

Aw, poor Jung...Creating a crisis doesn't sound like a good idea for the young or older crowd though. Mainly cause of stress or nightmares that could come with it. Knowing that his patients went through all that is kind of sad but it's good there were good dreams and those who were cured.Hrmm...I don't really get how this is suppose to transform them though. In what way do they transform? Do they become mentally strong to overcome obstacles in WL? Also, have you tried individuation?

Well of course his patients were seeing him because they suffered from psychological issues. So when I say they transformed I mean they were cured of those issues. A psychoanalyst has to talk patients through some harrowing stuff - make them face things about themselves that they've never admitted and never wanted to admit. So it's a hellish experience. And really, attempting individuation is the same thing as seeing a shrink. If you try it on your own, you're being the shrink as well as the patient. Generally people who see a depth psychologist (that's what Jung's branch of therapy is called) end up individuating, if the therapy is successful.

I don't know if he was seeing a therapist himself when he underwent all this. I know therapists usually do have therapists of their own, because as they say, a broken doctor can't fix anyone (or something along those lines, I forget exactly how it goes). I don't remember him mentioning a therapist, though he probably did have one.

It's recommended anybody who wants to try to individuate should be seeing a therapist due to the danger of suffering a neurosis or a psychosis. This is stuff that Jung discovered in his practice and then when he was in crisis he decided to try doing it himself, partly so he would be able to experience what his own patients went through, so he could better understand the process and adjust his theories. But basically he had no choice - he was already having a nervous breakdown - he just decided to try to create his own self therapy based on his theories, and it worked.

I'm highlighting the dangers because I don't want anybody foolishly trying this without understanding what they're getting into. Apparently some people don't have nearly as bad an experience - but there's no way to tell how it's going to be until you get in there.

Yes, I have been working toward individuation. No, I don't have a therapist - I plan to try this on my own and take my chances. My strategy has been to read as much as I can about it - I have a massive stack of books on my dining room table about it. I'm going for a complete immersion in the material - just saturate myself in it until I completely absorb it. I find this a very satisfying and usually effective way to learn things, as long as it's not something technical.

Here's the stack of books:
Attachment 9802
Click the thumbnail to see it bigger.
The ones standing upright on the side are the ones I've already finished.

I'm keeping a journal where I write every day - often quite extensively, about myself. Examining my behavior and my attitudes, remembering what seem to be important events from early life, and of course writing down and analyzing my dreams. I seem to be making good progress, though I have nothing to judge it against - I don't know anyone who's done this. But I do keep digging deeper into my own faults and making discoveries in my self-analysis.

I have encountered several shadow figures in my dreams and more recently a few anima figures. So far it's all been pretty light, even funny sometimes. Only the most recent shadow dream has been more serious. That one was intense - I was in a dark room that was unfamiliar to me and there was somebody sitting across the table form me that I couldn't see clearly at all - I could hardly even tell if anyone was there. I reached out and touched where i thought his hand was just to see if there was even anybody there and there was indeed a hand. As soon as I touched it I had a flash of intuition that it was something like Loki - but not the Loki from the Thor movies a much darker more malevolent version and very demonic. I had a stab of fear and woke up. I suspect after this point the dreams start to get more serious. Not all my dreams feature these archetypes though, and I think the earlier ones were not really archetypes but more like I was just dreaming about encountering archetypes, you know?

And yes, I have ulterior motives for doing this. It isn't just a self improvement scheme for me. I have some issues, as most people do, and I feel like I need to solve them to what extent I can. So it's a case of - I either heal myself or my life is going to suck because of these issues, so I'm willing to take the chance.

Oh, and I can't afford a psychoanalyst. But a stack of books I can afford - especially bought used through Amazon. :cheeky:

The thing about a psychosis - it's like an intense storm. It hits hard but it's over pretty quick. Usually a week or so I believe. But the problem is - when you're under it's spell, you might do something really stupid. So it's a sort of calculated risk. If I feel like it's getting dangerous I'll probably stop, though it's hard to say in advance exactly what I'll do. I suspect a lot of people start this, get some ways in, and then just drop it.

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Originally Posted by DawnEye11

No problem.: )What do you mean by dark night of the soul? I think I have an idea of what you mean though. Even if it wasn't an angel it seems like the purpose could be comfort after all. About the archetype thing I find it interesting as well. However, I do believe in the existence of other entities besides us In the universe too though. That's not to say that the mind isn't powerful enough to create a smart D.C. either. I want to say more but my battery is going to run out on my phone now.^^"

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Sorry for the late reply, I've been very busy recently. What I mean with dark night of the soul, let's just say it is a complicated type of depression but I don't like using that word. Also, I agree that there may be entities and spiritual beings due to the fact I've dealt with some odd stuff. I think what I saw was possibly an archtype or perhaps a spirit posing as an archtype although I'm not exactly sure. But hey I don't need to know literally everything because each answer will only raise more questions, lol.

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Originally Posted by Morgoth

Sorry for the late reply, I've been very busy recently. What I mean with dark night of the soul, let's just say it is a complicated type of depression but I don't like using that word. Also, I agree that there may be entities and spiritual beings due to the fact I've dealt with some odd stuff. I think what I saw was possibly an archtype or perhaps a spirit posing as an archtype although I'm not exactly sure. But hey I don't need to know literally everything because each answer will only raise more questions, lol.

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Its okay. Dark night of the soul does sound better. I know there are others who do the same too. Glad to know you feel the same about it. Haha true. XD

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Well of course his patients were seeing him because they suffered from psychological issues. So when I say they transformed I mean they were cured of those issues. A psychoanalyst has to talk patients through some harrowing stuff - make them face things about themselves that they've never admitted and never wanted to admit. So it's a hellish experience. And really, attempting individuation is the same thing as seeing a shrink. If you try it on your own, you're being the shrink as well as the patient. Generally people who see a depth psychologist (that's what Jung's branch of therapy is called) end up individuating, if the therapy is successful.

I don't know if he was seeing a therapist himself when he underwent all this. I know therapists usually do have therapists of their own, because as they say, a broken doctor can't fix anyone (or something along those lines, I forget exactly how it goes). I don't remember him mentioning a therapist, though he probably did have one.

It's recommended anybody who wants to try to individuate should be seeing a therapist due to the danger of suffering a neurosis or a psychosis. This is stuff that Jung discovered in his practice and then when he was in crisis he decided to try doing it himself, partly so he would be able to experience what his own patients went through, so he could better understand the process and adjust his theories. But basically he had no choice - he was already having a nervous breakdown - he just decided to try to create his own self therapy based on his theories, and it worked.

I'm highlighting the dangers because I don't want anybody foolishly trying this without understanding what they're getting into. Apparently some people don't have nearly as bad an experience - but there's no way to tell how it's going to be until you get in there.

Yes, I have been working toward individuation. No, I don't have a therapist - I plan to try this on my own and take my chances. My strategy has been to read as much as I can about it - I have a massive stack of books on my dining room table about it. I'm going for a complete immersion in the material - just saturate myself in it until I completely absorb it. I find this a very satisfying and usually effective way to learn things, as long as it's not something technical.

Here's the stack of books:
Attachment 9802
Click the thumbnail to see it bigger.
The ones standing upright on the side are the ones I've already finished.

I'm keeping a journal where I write every day - often quite extensively, about myself. Examining my behavior and my attitudes, remembering what seem to be important events from early life, and of course writing down and analyzing my dreams. I seem to be making good progress, though I have nothing to judge it against - I don't know anyone who's done this. But I do keep digging deeper into my own faults and making discoveries in my self-analysis.

I have encountered several shadow figures in my dreams and more recently a few anima figures. So far it's all been pretty light, even funny sometimes. Only the most recent shadow dream has been more serious. That one was intense - I was in a dark room that was unfamiliar to me and there was somebody sitting across the table form me that I couldn't see clearly at all - I could hardly even tell if anyone was there. I reached out and touched where i thought his hand was just to see if there was even anybody there and there was indeed a hand. As soon as I touched it I had a flash of intuition that it was something like Loki - but not the Loki from the Thor movies a much darker more malevolent version and very demonic. I had a stab of fear and woke up. I suspect after this point the dreams start to get more serious. Not all my dreams feature these archetypes though, and I think the earlier ones were not really archetypes but more like I was just dreaming about encountering archetypes, you know?

And yes, I have ulterior motives for doing this. It isn't just a self improvement scheme for me. I have some issues, as most people do, and I feel like I need to solve them to what extent I can. So it's a case of - I either heal myself or my life is going to suck because of these issues, so I'm willing to take the chance.

Oh, and I can't afford a psychoanalyst. But a stack of books I can afford - especially bought used through Amazon. :cheeky:

The thing about a psychosis - it's like an intense storm. It hits hard but it's over pretty quick. Usually a week or so I believe. But the problem is - when you're under it's spell, you might do something really stupid. So it's a sort of calculated risk. If I feel like it's getting dangerous I'll probably stop, though it's hard to say in advance exactly what I'll do. I suspect a lot of people start this, get some ways in, and then just drop it.

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Ohh, for some reason I thought he was just experimenting his ideas. Not that he was actually their psychologist or therapist . I wonder what kind of problems they had to have to experience psychosis cause of it. It is risky even if it last a week. As long as you stop in time you'll be good I hope. But I'm still unsure as to what could start it.

wow. Those are a lot of books.Looks like you read eight already. No wonder you know so much about it. Sounds like your doing great on your own so far too.

Yeah,you could encounter fakes. A Loki demon is scary but it could also be fun if you overcome it.
I figured you'd be doing it for a good reason cause of the warning.

Thinking about it more, I've had problems with anxiety and depression too. Growing up I would use my dreams to try and become a stronger person that could overcome the fears and stay calm as well. I couldn't afford a psychologist either but I did manage to see one for three sessions before I stopped. Now I can say I'm a lot better than I was back than. What helped was knowing I wasn't the only one going through it, a change of lifestyle, facing whatever came my way in a calm manner, writing/talking about my experience and etc.It was really bad back than that I would get chest pain, heachaches focused at a point of my head at times, palpitations, at one time I had a bad panic attack that left a numb/strange feeling on my forehead that lasted like a month/maybe two months and just thinking about what I was going through I remember feeling like I wasn't going to make it in life. However, I'm thankful there was actually a bright side because even after things are calm you become scared of a relapse. I don't know how it would turn out if I tried individuation but i wouldn't be surprised if I came across these archetypes through out my experience. There's a few ones I recall that could possibly be but there's one that sticks out the most.Im thinking of the times that don't involve my dream guides though. Even if they could be considered some type of archetype at specific instances.

Apparently what could cause a psychosis or a neurosis is if you have some kind of complex going into this and don't manage to solve it enough before encountering the Self. I know I do have a complex or a cluster of closely related ones, but a big part of what I'm doing with the self-analysis is to try to dissolve it/them. This is done through bringing conscious awareness to your faults, which I already mentioned. Each time you come to a new level of understanding about things that you used to deny and project onto other people, it increases your conscious awareness of yourself and reduces the size and power of your shadow. So really it's sort of a race to see if I can reduce my shadow enough before the Self constellates.

Individuation really is just a fancy word for growing up. Or rather for reaching a new level of maturity that's more appropriate for your age. After reaching adulthood you sort of stop naturally leveling up every few years and you have to start doing it deliberately. Actually it will still happen by itself sometimes, probably through the agency of an archetype or 2 showing up in dreams, though most people aren't aware that's what's happening. The only real difference is that when you learn all this Jungian stuff you know the names of the archetypes and what they do.They still function for everybody, but most people have no idea they exist. So this stack of books is like an owner's manual for the mind in case you want to go under the hood and do some tinkering.

The method Jung created is just a deliberate way to make it happen that works well for creative, introverted people who have a close connection with their inner world, and with dreams.

That picture was from like a month and a half ago - I've read a few more since then, but the stacks have grown a bit more too. The reason I want so many books is because I know this is the kind of stuff I'll gradually forget over time, and so I plan to read it all in installments with a month or 2 off in between, so as my mind begins to forget the details I can read a few more books and immerse myself in that world again, bring it all back to awareness. That way I'll learn it well I hope. Plus I suspect when I'm reading about it is when I'm having the powerful dreams and bringing up the archetypes. It works like lucidity in that way - as you spend more time reading about it that's when it starts to happen.

Morgoth, sorry I've completely derailed your thread!! If you want I'll ask a moderator to clip out the irrelevant parts and transfer them to a new thread.

I wrote more but posted after you posted. XD

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Apparently what could cause a psychosis or a neurosis is if you have some kind of complex going into this and don't manage to solve it enough before encountering the Self. I know I do have a complex or a cluster of closely related ones, but a big part of what I'm doing with the self-analysis is to try to dissolve it/them. This is done through bringing conscious awareness to your faults, which I already mentioned. Each time you come to a new level of understanding about things that you used to deny and project onto other people, it increases your conscious awareness of yourself and reduces the size and power of your shadow. So really it's sort of a race to see if I can reduce my shadow enough before the Self constellates.

Individuation really is just a fancy word for growing up. Or rather for reaching a new level of maturity that's more appropriate for your age. After reaching adulthood you sort of stop naturally leveling up every few years and you have to start doing it deliberately. Actually it will still happen by itself sometimes, probably through the agency of an archetype or 2 showing up in dreams, though most people aren't aware that's what's happening. The only real difference is that when you learn all this Jungian stuff you know the names of the archetypes and what they do.They still function for everybody, but most people have no idea they exist. So this stack of books is like an owner's manual for the mind in case you want to go under the hood and do some tinkering.

The method Jung created is just a deliberate way to make it happen that works well for creative, introverted people who have a close connection with their inner world, and with dreams.

That picture was from like a month and a half ago - I've read a few more since then, but the stacks have grown a bit more too. The reason I want so many books is because I know this is the kind of stuff I'll gradually forget over time, and so I plan to read it all in installments with a month or 2 off in between, so as my mind begins to forget the details I can read a few more books and immerse myself in that world again, bring it all back to awareness. That way I'll learn it well I hope. Plus I suspect when I'm reading about it is when I'm having the powerful dreams and bringing up the archetypes. It works like lucidity in that way - as you spend more time reading about it that's when it starts to happen.

Morgoth, sorry I've completely derailed your thread!! If you want I'll ask a moderator to clip out the irrelevant parts and transfer them to a new thread.

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The way you talk about it now, doesn't make it sound as bad as it did in your other post. :chuckle: But still this thing about shadow and self is a little confusing. Reaching a new level of maturity...Is that why the patients saw Jung?Mhm, Memory does fade over time. I do the same with books ive read before. I like to see if there is something i haven't noticed too. Anyways i hope you encounter the archetypes and make the transformation you want to achieve. Also, im sorry, i keep asking questions. I didn't think Morgoth would mind but yeah, the thread was not made for this.
>. <

I'm glad you keep asking questions - thank you for that! It gives me the chance to get this all out of my system, and maybe then I can stop talking about it on all the other threads I respond to :chuckle:.

Jung's patients saw him for the reason anybody decides to go see a shrink - because they were having psychological issues and needed help solving them. But in a way you can boil that down to just having an immature way of dealing with things. What I mean is - if a person is projecting their own issues onto other people or onto their life situation ("Its not my fault - it's all HER!!" or "My life just sucks! There's nothing I can do about it!") - that's really an immature reaction and you won't get any better as long as you keep thinking that way. The crux of psychoanalysis - at least a big part of it - is about making people see how they are the source of their own problems. Not the only source - it's never that simple, but let me put it like this:

If you think of your problems as being completely caused by other people or by situations that are beyond your control, then there's not a thing you can do to solve them and why would you even try? You'll just keep blaming and hating. But to some extent anyway, everybody is partially responsible for what happens to them - it's their attitude that needs to be fixed. That's the only part they have any control over after all, right? So the analyst's job is basically to get them to see that and start to adopt a more mature attitude that says "Well ok, part of this is really my fault, and knowing that now I can do something about it."

So in that sense, all this dissolving your shadow by integrating your projections and denials is simply a way of taking a more mature attitude to life. Saying "No - it's all HIS fault!" is pretty immature really, right? But saying "Ok, I can see I'm partially in the wrong. I'll see what a change in my own attitude might do" is much more mature. We all retain some immature attitudes and for long periods of time that might not cause too big of a problem, but at some point it can get out of hand and that's when we need help. In fact I've heard a psychologist say that usually people go to an analyst with problems that aren't really psychological, they're just problems in how to deal with life and they need help figuring it out. Unfortunately that's something schools really don't prepare us for.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I'm glad you keep asking questions - thank you for that! It gives me the chance to get this all out of my system, and maybe then I can stop talking about it on all the other threads I respond to :chuckle:.

Jung's patients saw him for the reason anybody decides to go see a shrink - because they were having psychological issues and needed help solving them. But in a way you can boil that down to just having an immature way of dealing with things. What I mean is - if a person is projecting their own issues onto other people or onto their life situation ("Its not my fault - it's all HER!!" or "My life just sucks! There's nothing I can do about it!") - that's really an immature reaction and you won't get any better as long as you keep thinking that way. The crux of psychoanalysis - at least a big part of it - is about making people see how they are the source of their own problems. Not the only source - it's never that simple, but let me put it like this:

If you think of your problems as being completely caused by other people or by situations that are beyond your control, then there's not a thing you can do to solve them and why would you even try? You'll just keep blaming and hating. But to some extent anyway, everybody is partially responsible for what happens to them - it's their attitude that needs to be fixed. That's the only part they have any control over after all, right? So the analyst's job is basically to get them to see that and start to adopt a more mature attitude that says "Well ok, part of this is really my fault, and knowing that now I can do something about it."

So in that sense, all this dissolving your shadow by integrating your projections and denials is simply a way of taking a more mature attitude to life. Saying "No - it's all HIS fault!" is pretty immature really, right? But saying "Ok, I can see I'm partially in the wrong. I'll see what a change in my own attitude might do" is much more mature. We all retain some immature attitudes and for long periods of time that might not cause too big of a problem, but at some point it can get out of hand and that's when we need help. In fact I've heard a psychologist say that usually people go to an analyst with problems that aren't really psychological, they're just problems in how to deal with life and they need help figuring it out. Unfortunately that's something schools really don't prepare us for.

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Your welcome than. ^^ I suppose I don't feel like the word immature fits certain situations though. Sometimes it's a traumatic event or an outside source that makes people feel like they can't do anything even when they can or in some cases...people are forced to stay vulnerable. However, in order to heal they do need to have security, realize that it's possible for things to get better for them if they take action and don't give up. I get what your saying for the most part though. I also feel like saying "immature" doesn't sit well because it's like saying you have a low state of mind because of how you feel. When really we should be accepting how we feel than doing something to change or make things better for ourselves. If an old man cries because his wife died and sees a psychologist is he immature? I'm not writing this to offend you, I know you didn't mean to offend anyone either but maybe It did make me feel a bit hurt.But I guess you were talking about it with a less serious example in mind so sorry for being sensitive. I could have misunderstood while thinking about some of the other things patients go through.

Oh, you're absolutely right!! My bad, I didn't mean that immaturity is the cause of every psychological problem. But it is the primary cause of the Shadow related ones. The Shadow is that part of the unconscious where we push down those things about ourselves that we don't want to own up to, that we deny, project or repress. When a shadow figure shows up in your dreams it's a personification of your unconscious Shadow, so those dreams are referring specifically to your projections, denials and repressions, and this is why you deal with them specifically the way I've been talking about. Yes, there are definitely other psychological problems - I just went a little tunnel vision on this one subject - sorry. :doh:

Also, I'm guessing a well trained psychoanalyst or therapist wouldn't start off by calling their clients immature - I was just cutting through the PC and calling it that for convenience's sake.

I also shouldn't just say "immaturity" - that does sound mean spirited, doesn't it? A better way to say it is that we must advance to the next level of conscious awareness. Become consciously aware of the poor attitudes we might have and not be aware of. Really this is a different way of saying we must strive for that next level of maturity. Because maturity is not an all-or-nothing proposition, it's a sliding scale and nobody is ever completely mature. There's no such thing. It's more that we just need to become mature enough (consciously aware enough) to handle whatever life is throwing at us. We all could keep advancing to new levels if we tried and keep getting better, though it's only necessary when we begin to have problems we can't handle.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Oh, you're absolutely right!! My bad, I didn't mean that immaturity is the cause of every psychological problem. But it is the primary cause of the Shadow related ones. The Shadow is that part of the unconscious where we push down those things about ourselves that we don't want to own up to, that we deny, project or repress. When a shadow figure shows up in your dreams it's a personification of your unconscious Shadow, so those dreams are referring specifically to your projections, denials and repressions, and this is why you deal with them specifically the way I've been talking about. Yes, there are definitely other psychological problems - I just went a little tunnel vision on this one subject - sorry. :doh:

Also, I'm guessing a well trained psychoanalyst or therapist wouldn't start off by calling their clients immature - I was just cutting through the PC and calling it that for convenience's sake.

I also shouldn't just say "immaturity" - that does sound mean spirited, doesn't it? A better way to say it is that we must advance to the next level of conscious awareness. Become consciously aware of the poor attitudes we might have and not be aware of. Really this is a different way of saying we must strive for that next level of maturity. Because maturity is not an all-or-nothing proposition, it's a sliding scale and nobody is ever completely mature. There's no such thing. It's more that we just need to become mature enough (consciously aware enough) to handle whatever life is throwing at us. We all could keep advancing to new levels if we tried and keep getting better, though it's only necessary when we begin to have problems we can't handle.

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It's okay.Its not mean if the word fits the situation, I just didn't think it applied to all. Thanks for explaining what you meant. I agree, that we need to be mature enough to survive.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Morgoth, sorry I've completely derailed your thread!! If you want I'll ask a moderator to clip out the irrelevant parts and transfer them to a new thread.

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Dude don't worry about that, it's fine.