The Hypothetical Nature of OOBEs

I think the out-of-body experience is always real insofar as being an experience that arises in spacial awareness like any other.

The real question is the nature of these experiences and we should always ask ourselves what evidence we have for the postulations we make---whether we take such phenomenon to be indicative of consciousness exiting the human body or merely an autoscopic hallucination generated by the 40Hz of gamma bandwidth of brain activity which Raduga et al call the 'phase state'.

Can OOBEs beget information that could not be known through physical/obvious means? Can we time travel or read people's minds in such state? What about predicting lottery numbers. Precognition? Interesting stuff.

The deck of cards experiment is something I have tried myself years ago after having a few experiences which many would jump the gun and call precognitive and telepathic. But I am a sceptic at heart and I always put to the test that urge in me to want something to be true. In fact I distrust it because the wish to be a superhero is a dream of desire.

The hidden card was randomly selected without being seen by anyone ...

I had an OOBE and did not see the card in the bedroom replica, but came across a woman wearing a crown embracing and kissing an ordinary man in the world beyond my dream abode.

I woke up to find that, in the real world, the hidden card was the queen of hearts.

I'd love to see more people try this at least 20 times to see how many 'hits', or apparent hits, they get, to see how results fly in the face of coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Summerlander

Can OOBEs beget information that could not be known through physical/obvious means? Can we time travel or read people's minds in such state? What about predicting lottery numbers. Precognition? Interesting stuff.

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In my dream sharing group, we've had experiences like this. One time, for instance, I was lucid and visited the other girl in my group. I have never seen her picture, mind you. After the dream, I described what she looked like (thin, long blonde hair, pretty). I kept one small detail to myself, mostly because I thought it was irrelevant, and just the dream acting like a dream. The detail was that her hair shimmered pink a little bit. That morning, she confirmed that she is indeed thin with long blonde hair. She also mentioned that she recently added pink highlights to her hair.

This is just one example of the kinds of "hits" we've gotten. It's been fun to explore it.


I love your experience with the queen card! How awesome!

They are still running experiments on it at hospitals I think, placing a picture in the operating room which only the researcher knows what looks like, and the potential OBE'er/returning patient, think it's cardiac arrest room the easiest to get tangible results so they went with that. Not sure on the results if they finished experiment or not.

Also, the CIA used remote viewing in the past and had a quite high success rate, still using it to this day according to ufologist ex-CIA agent Steven Greer.

Watching video's of NDE's with old aged nurses and doctors recalling stories who have been around the dead and dying so long is quite revealing.

Eonn,

The CIA remote-viewing program, if I am not mistaken, ran in the '60s during the cold war. I think it was Stargate, right?

MoonageDaydream,

Awesome experience! You definitely got a hit with the girl's pink hair. I have had my fair share of experiences like this which made me hypothesise that when we visit people in OOBEs, we might see the content of their minds, i.e. since she obtained pink highlights she perceived this to be her world and you accessed it by tuning into her mental model. OOBE telepathy a la Ingo Swann, as it were. Food for thought! Thank you for sharing!

There was also a seemingly precognitive OOBE I had where I floated above my old address and saw a biker hit my former neighbour's van, which caused him to come out of the house and angrily have a go at the rider while his daughter called the police. I thought it was strange at the time. Then my jaw hit the floor when my wife told me it happened ... two weeks later!

Yes, correct. Not sure the project name, might have been operation paperclip done under the supervision or advice of the majestic 12. Project stargate could have been something else, maybe it was the whole purpose behind sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan to find a working stargate the middle east had uncovered over there at the time, or so the conspiracy goes. Most of the info on it is presented in Steven Greer's new doco "encounters of the fifth kind" worth a watch if you got amazon prime, he says CIA still use it today and you can only assume it's more advanced by now. Especially after all the other experiments like the Montalk project and philedelphia experiment, and rapid advancement in technology. The doco is really interesting because Steven mentions the way they initiate alien contact is through group meditation! the aliens or UFO's only appear if the group generate a combined feeling of love and acceptance, so the beings they encounter are all benevolent as a result of this. Might just be me, but Steven himself looks a bit different than your average person, his mannerisms too, maybe he is an alien himself. Look at his mouth when or if you watch his video, he seems to have no top row of teeth and his smile goes practically from ear to ear.

The Silva mind method, also incorporates the same remote viewing technique that was discovered by the CIA all those years ago.

Interesting stuff.

So far, I have seen five UFOs in my lifetime. Me and my wife actually saw one just three days ago.

My wife was outside smoking and spotted a bright white light noiselessly rising from the horizon and flying towards our house and alerted me to this fact. I reckon its altitude was about 1,000ft when it approached us before changing direction. It was eerie!

As I said to my wife that it couldn't possibly be a plane because it didn't make any noise, it began to shine a red and green light as if it knew it was being watched and tried to convince us it was an ordinary aircraft. I wasn't convinced. 'It's traveling too fast to be a plane and its silence seems to defy the laws of physics!' I said to my wife.

We even joked that it could be Santa's sleigh and I whistled and clapped at it. As soon as I did this, it appeared to slow down, turned orange and intensified its luminosity before gradually dwindling. Then it silently glided away from us to our left before changing direction again, down the street, and disappearing as it flew over neighbouring houses.

I wish I had recorded the whole thing but the sighting lasted no more than a minute and we were mesmerised.

Nice, I haven't really seen any my UFO's my self or had encounters, not that I really want to either just find it fascinating and a good topic to do some research on.

I watched a lot of documentaries about crop circles growing up, until eventually I stumbled upon the video where someone captured a crop circle forming on camera. Literally 2 small white orbs of light floating above a field like wisps, and the circles appear beneath within a matter of seconds as they are flying and dancing around over it. Dome of the rock footage is another good one because it was witnessed by multiple people and captured from 3 different angles. There's also the apollo 20 footage showing city on dark side of moon, with recovered alien body from a space-craft but officially apollo 20 never happened. Someone did more research into it, and was able to clarify and verify it as real and wrote a book on it... Apollo 20, the full disclosure was the book title I think.

Interesting you say that UFO you saw did that when you clapped, Steven Greer says similar thing happens in their groups when they ask the UFO from their heart or mind to stop and come back for example.

Interesting observations made by Steven Greer. I guess I know more about Bob Lazar and the UFO propulsion systems you've mentioned previously (where spaceships 'fall' into space) than his whistleblowing.

I'm intrigued about Apollo 20. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that it happened but the powers that be cancelled its officialdom.

Tell me more if you can ...

Yes, I watched Bob Lazar too and everything he says is creditable, they tried to discredit and ridicule him even deleted all his academic records but they later confirmed his academia by visiting the places he studied and finding the physical evidence for it.
He said the craft were powered by Element 151 or something, a very heavy element that has magnetic qualities not found in our solar system. Scientists have now created and discovered this element, and also the following one after it.
I've read a few things about alien crafts, most sources say they are powered or driven by the crew via mental connection, even standing inside it the atmosphere and lighting everything is all managed by collective mental agreement by the crew.
Hence, why all the military interest in bringing in psychics and running remote viewing operations, and other experimentation on understanding how the mind works and what it's breaking point is... project montaulk, philidelphia experiment, etc.
All they needed was, a group of strong psychics and perhaps some tailor designed 'medication' to assist them in being able to operate the craft. On a side note, have you ever look at the icon logo for any bluetooth device? not solid evidence but you get what I'm saying.

Here is that video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpMg...RdTM-Sh7CQY0FA

Here is the book on it:

https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-au/b...9#GOR010999773

I was able to preview a good chunk of the book using google books, lots of good stuff in it.

Apollo 20. The Disclosure by Luca Scantamburlo seems like a gem to me already. The footage is quite compelling for the '70s, mate! It makes perfect sense to run secrets programs on psi phenomena when humans have witnessed demonstrations by alien beings who are, for all intents and purposes, far more advanced.

I really do want to delve into this because I have seen some crazy shit in the skies. The universe is incredibly vast and consciousness appears to be an impossible nut to crack.

People's first intuitions might be to rule this out because it seems too wild and crazy, but, what other reasons would top secret units have to keep certain things from the general public, right? Thanks for sharing, brother! I'm further down the rabbit hole ...

That might be Trump's alien hybrid daughter. LOL😁
Joking aside ...

You know the President has been made privy to the existence of an underground Martian base where human astronauts secretly meet with the Galactic Federation, right? This is according to former Israeli space chief Haim Eshed, who retired last year and blew the whistle because he has nothing to lose.

Check the guy out. He is very well respected in Israel. He started out in a British government-sponsored top secret military unit that began just after the Roswell crash and just before the formation of Israel itself. Some members specialised in secret weapons and advanced quantum mechanics. Israeli authorities were comical in the way they addressed his claims as he undoubtedly played a major role in the country's advancement (like a 'father to the nation'); it was, to paraphrase, something along the lines of, 'You may continue to take everything that Eshed said throughout his life seriously up until the point he retired—what he said after that is him "going too far".'

Yes, I heard about him. Many people these days pointing fingers at what they call "the deep state" a covert group far beyond the politicians or the government that's running and ruining the world. The black ops budget is supposedly at least 3 times larger than the countries entire 'known' budget in America, possibly more. If there really is a deep state covert operation like this, then no doubt they have bases on the moon, other planets, underground, regular meetings with aliens onboard their craft or on their home planet, replicators, teleporters, med-beds, etc. I've pretty much heard it all, some go as far as saying many politicians, rich elites, etc. are actually clones, and some clones not a biological replica, transferring consciousness into an unrecognizable clone...

Perhaps they wouldn't even need billions from taxpayers' money to be poured into covert operations of a highly secretive nature if they have aliens providing them with Lazar's elusive UFO Element 115 and technologies whereby the atoms of toxic waste can be rearranged into something productive beyond imagination—like some recycling holy grail akin to the philosopher's stone, where the alchemist figures out how to turn any substance into gold; little did they know back then that in order to produce gold we need high-speed collisions between atoms that not even the power of CERN can provide as gold is generated by the immensity and intensity of supernova explosions in space.

In order to avoid digression on this topic, I wanted to explore the nature of OOBEs further in relation to lucid dreams. What is your take? One may lead to the other and vice versa, or both phenomena might be one and the same, as the 'third eye' witnesses emergent visions in the blank canvas of the mind. People who practice achieving these states have varied interpretations ...

In Lucid Dreaming: The paradox of consciousness during sleep by Celia Green and Charles McCreery, in a chapter about false awakenings and OOBEs, the term 'ecsomatic' was introduced as an alternative to 'out-of-the-body'. 'Parasomatic' is where the percipient possesses a body which differs from the real body however slightly; and 'asomatic' describes an experience where no body is perceived. An asomatic OOBE is reported by Green:

'I went to my room and lay on my bed ... After a while my whole body felt very heavy and sank into the bed. I tried to get up but could not. Then I found I was standing in front of the dressing-table mirror. I looked into it, there was no reflection of me. I touched the mirror to make sure it was there. It was, but I was not, but I could see across the room in the mirror. I was still lying on my bed. This time I became terrified. Frantically I wondered how to get back in! ...I went back to bed, lay with my body.'

The chapter also records a parasomatic experience by J. H. M. Whiteman, where he acquired a good idea of what it is like to be a girl:

'Awareness in separation began with the sight of a tree, about twenty feet away, in a pleasant natural scene. I moved a little nearer, so that the tree was on my left. The freshness of the air and the joy of being in a smaller and acceptable form again made me start dancing, with movements exhilarating in their freedom ... Still affected with the joy in nature, I lay down on the ground, vividly feeling the cool grass with my fingers and the firmness of the earth beneath. I began to be afraid of the mounting excitement, that it would pass beyond my control, and decided to stand up again. As I did so, I noticed vividly how different it was, getting up off the ground in my proper form, from what it would have been in my physical body, on account of the great differences in bodily form, the smaller height, and the proportionately wider hips. In spite of this being, as it were, a strange discovery, the movement was completely natural to me, and wonderfully satisfying in its ease and grace. The memory-impression of what the contrasting movements of my physical body would have been, on the other hand, seemed only an outer illusory and provisional covering to the reality I was expecting.'

It is Celia Green's understanding that both OOBEs and lucid dreams are metachoric experiences, that is, the environment is a complete hallucination—even if it closely mimicks the physical world or appears to be an extension of what's objectively real.

Interestingly, Sylvan Muldoon-inspired Oliver Fox, author of A Record of Out-of-the-Body Experiences, made the claim in the '60s that persistently prolonging the experience of lucid dreaming as much as possible will eventually produce a distinct 'click' in the head, leading to an ecsomatic state which he believed to be a genuine OOBE.

My thoughts on OBE or NDE is that it's same as astral projection, except in most cases of NDE the body has died so the OBE is more out of body than trying to astral project whilst still alive. But essentially, whether we are AP or OBE/NDE, we are going to the other side, the side our conscious self travels to when we 'pass on'. The other side is often described as being extremely vibrant, vivid and beautiful, very dream-like but feeling more real and more like home than waking life. There is a plethora of names used to describe it: astral, ethereal, aether, etheric, energetic, pranic, psionic, psychic, quantum - they basically all describe the same thing - a subtle substance, fabric or field that is very difficult if not impossible to detect in waking life.

As to the mechanics behind it, I'd suggest our energy body is always there on the inside, underlaying/overlapping or interweaving with our physical body. We just never notice it normally, and there are 2 reasons for this:
1.) it's extremely subtle energy - we have to develop the ability to tune in to it consciously. Which is a 2 part process meaning we have to acquire the ability to perceive subtle energies, and also the ability to tune in specifically to our own energy body.
2.) the energy body runs automatically, similar to our subconscious, operating on minimal power - there are ways to power-up your energy body through different practices such as pranayama breathing, tai chi, qi gong, meditation, sleep paralysis, etc. to make it easier in taking manual control over it. When there is more energy running through our energy body, it's easier to detect it, and transition into it.

One might then ask, what is the difference between dreaming and astral projection?
I would argue that, in regular dreams we are projecting into our own personal space or area on the other side, we aren't moving anywhere with the energetic body or using the energetic body to travel and venture out of personally projected space.

I often look at the meaning of words, and try tracing them back to their root origin and meaning, or decipher what is being hidden or contained within the word. Especially with English, just about every word in the English language traces back to a word in latin. For example:
Dream - D-RE-AM - "Death-REbirth-AM"
Emotion - E-motion "Energy in motion"
Energy - sounds like "inner chi"

If we are going to the other side every night we dream, then in a way, we are dying each night and being reborn in the morning. It's also well known that our pineal gland (aka third eye) produces DMT (the spirit molecule) when we are born, when we die, and every night when we dream, which further supports this theory.

Your view is similar to Frank Kepple's; he used to be a member of a site called Astral Pulse. He was quite influential and had taken the Robert Monroe model even further. He had a whole hypothetical treatise for what could be going on—akin to Robert Bruce's.

Essentially, lucid dreaming is personal space; then there are the lower and higher astral planes of existence; then the mental plane; then something else going all the way up to something like the Logos in a mad spiritual hierarchy.

One day, Kepple stopped posting and was rumoured to have died. That prompted folk not just from Pulse but also from Astral Viewers to astral project in order to visit him.

I did what I usually do back then, I entered the phase and wished to see him which landed me on a desert island where I found the man inside a pyramid playing with prisms. He looked happy and looked like a scientist inspecting test tubes with a monocle.

OOBE most of the time is a NREM WILD where you are in a scenario of being out of body. Can you get information there? Yes, but not from the physical place itself, you can can get information only if someone knows what is there. Both OOBE and AP hits are more of a shared dreaming hits.

As for precognitive dreaming there, highly unlikely, but depends how far and how complicated is the guess. If not hard and far, your subconscious mind is smart and fast enough to predict the outcome, giving it has some data to work with.

There's some weird stuff in this thread. I put some relevant comments in a separate 'new conjectures' thread.

As I've posted previously, I make a distinction between astral projection and OBE. Astral projection is audial and visual, but also very strongly tactile. It is like a projection of the capacity to feel and sense. OBE is more like a projection of conscious perspective. They're closely related, presumably, but for me the experiences are very different.

I think that UFOs do not travel to the earth across space. I think they're a technology from another world, or conceivably from a future of our world, which involves principles we don't understand but associate with psychism. Personally I don't like what I feel from them, and prefer to leave them alone.

I think that almost all 'deep state' conspiracy stuff is BS. For several years I worked in a building which according to what I read on the internet houses all kinds of bizarre stuff. I think it's only plausible to people who don't understand how these organizations really work. There's a lot of wrong in the world, but it's mostly pedestrian stuff like spinelessness and careerism. Conspiracies, such as exist, are mostly informal open collusions between people to protect their economic interests, not secret societies with secret plans. A typical government agency is a lot like the DMV, and the DMV is not like in Men in Black. So yeah, I believe in psychic phenomena, including UFO's, but there's a lot of disinformation out there, and most of it is coming from conspiracy theorists.

Thanks for your input, guys! I'm definitely checking out the 'new conjectures' thread. New ideas are always welcome!

I use specific terminology here. OBE applies to ANY experience where you feel as if you are not inside your body, while astral implies the experience of leaving the physical world and "journeying" in a much harder to understand environment.

I used to have many many lucid experiences that involved walking around my environment (house or such) with the belief it was an honest OBE. Oddly when I would task myself with finding my body and looking directly at it, I would instantly awaken just as my eyes reached the spot I should find the body. I have no idea what to make of that. I never had a single bit of evidence to make me feel it was a real thing. No knowledge of things around me came up and in hind sight nothing about it was any different than what could be created in a standard LD.

So, no personal experience in the many dozen OBE that would make me think I actual left my body. Now remote viewing on the other hand is easy. Maybe not considering perhaps you need to have studied some sort of yoga and other factors, but when that is behind you, it is honestly very easy. So lets say in an OBE someone can successfully describe the color and shape of an object hidden in a box in another room, I would say that same thing is not very complex while awake. Obviously a remote viewer is not literally leaving their body to do the viewing, so a person who does it via the dream route could be doing no more than the same sort of remote viewing.

Hypothetical nature:
1) lucid dream about familiar surroundings
2) standard remote viewing that the person does unconsciously in a dream state
3) extension of the energy body in a manner similar to a feeler or whisker that has limited ability to perceive something outside the body, but not honestly the consciousness traveling around like a ghost

In my experience, looking for the sleeping body often leads to an undesired awakening, what we used to call a 'foul' in Michael Raduga's School of Out-of-body Travel. The theory within the school is that thinking of the sleeping body increases the risk of immediately returning to its perspective, thereby leaving the phase.

My experience seemed to confirm this and I only ever saw my body, uncovered, a couple of times—looking very mannequin-like. I soon lost interest and only from time to time glance back to almost always find an empty bed, occasionally seeing raised covers.

I pretty much agree with your observations, sivason, as we both can confirm that such experiences do happen, and can be seen as revelatory or psychic—very much open to interpretation.

I might not believe in some interpretations, but would not go out of my way to say, with certainty, that they are completely impossible. For instance, I have no means to justify a belief in healing other people through lucid dreaming, but when a friend's little boy was very ill with neuroblastoma—and his chances of survival were not good—I was willing to try anything. I entered the phase, as I do, and translocated to my friend's house to see the boy, looking ill. Sure, it was a replica of his abode, but I didn't care and proceeded to remove the boy's tumours with my bare hands. He's been on remission ever since ...

Whether it worked as a result of my experience, or solely the fact that he received chemotherapy from London's GOSH—or a combination of both—I don't know for sure. But what really matters in the end is that he is still okay today.

Call me a hypocrite, if you must, but, how could I not try remote healing? Who am I to claim to know, with certainty, that this or that doesn't exist? I barely understand 5% of the visible universe. If there was ever a time to stop being a doubting Thomas ...