Who is the dreamer when you are not lucid?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VVilliam

I am not asking whether lucid dreaming is real or not. I am being specific to non-lucid dreaming re the OPQ.

---

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreams are a universal human experience that may be described as a state of consciousness characterized by sensory, cognitive, and emotional occurrences during sleep.
Non-lucid Dreams may be characterized by primary consciousness, bizarreness, and cognitive deficits, lacking metacognition.
I can go on, but this is like jumping down a rabbit hole because as much research on neurology or psychology, we are only scratching the surface of how our brain truly works. But, suspect that Non-lucid is real but, real all dreams are hallucinations.. (imo)

Topic moved...

~L


:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lang

Dreams are a universal human experience that may be described as a state of consciousness characterized by sensory, cognitive, and emotional occurrences during sleep.
Non-lucid Dreams may be characterized by primary consciousness, bizarreness, and cognitive deficits, lacking metacognition.
I can go on, but this is like jumping down a rabbit hole because as much research on neurology or psychology, we are only scratching the surface of how our brain truly works. But, suspect that Non-lucid is real but, real all dreams are hallucinations.. (imo)

Topic moved...

~L


:lol:

---

Thanks for moving this thread to the right spot.

My question is open to anyone.

My answer currently is that anything I experience is real, whether it is the experience of lucid dreaming, or just normal dreaming where I have been interacting even that I have snippets of having consciously done so.

Those snippets are real.

What we call "Dreaming" appears to be the way in which one interacts with the vaster aspect of our self - our subconscious "team mates" who are doing things behind the scenes and we can connect with these in many ways as well as dreams... such as lucid dreaming, OBE, NDE, Certain plant ingestion, Chemicals, Theism, Message Boards, Message Generation systems, et al and none are more relevant or any better or different in achieving connection and interaction with the Dream Team than any other. ALL are valid in relation to anyone's subjective reality experience.

Hallucinations? It has not been established that consciousness solely emerges from brains. We do not even know if we exist within a created thing or not let alone be able to make positive claims that we and our experience is only a hallucination we call 'real' because we are experiencing it as such.

Obviously in relation to dreaming of any type, such can be seen [re opinion] through nontheist filters as well as theistic ones.

I am open to either interpretation, but based upon the evidence so far, I am more inclined toward the notion we are experiencing real things, be they in dreamland or wakeland, makes no difference. {also imo}

https://i.imgur.com/9O6k6s5.png

Yeah, facts and speculation have to be divided. We all really looking at uncarted areas HERE.

The heck with it, I'm merging this one with one that is already started in Beyond Lucid dreaming....

Merged.

~L
DV Moderator.
----
Edited : I just notice that I said the same thing again.... Wow..

Just because I have had some non-lucid dreams (Not reality shifting) about viewing different realities at the same time or experiencing of what is like to be a baby again doesn't mean that is readily possible to measure or know if it is real or not. What we do know that we can enjoy the mystery of an Non-lucid how ever it comes. (imo)
And with this I would reality check!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lang

Yeah, facts and speculation have to be divided. We all really looking at uncarted areas HERE.

The heck with it, I'm merging this one with one that is already started in Beyond Lucid dreaming....

Merged.

~L
DV Moderator.

---

Thanks again for merging the topics...I see the topic is nigh on a year old...but scanning the prior posts can see why you decided to merge them.

My interest in dreams and subsequent question about reality come through my engaging with the Message Generating process I have been involved with and sharing on this site for the last six or more months.

There has been quite a bit of mentioning of dreaming re those messages, and I have just published the month of March mention of dreaming - in my Dream Journal blog... https://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/vvi...ch-2022-94859/

As can be seen therein, the overall impression is that these things are happening with or without our conscious awareness, and it is my assumption that those involving themselves in dream-related/alternative experience practices are attempting to understand the true nature of said experiences.

I do think that there is a mutual meeting-ground between those who think consciousness is emergent of brain function and those who think there is more to it than that...

Whatever absurdity is happening around us in dream, we are still real (or at least, as real as "we" can be).

I think this is true regardless of whether or not we are lucid. It's sort of like being sober vs. being drunk. We're still us, but we're a lot smarter when we're sober. ;) In this way, we're a lot more conscious when we're lucid, but we're still a version of us when we're not. I'm always happy when I do something good in a non-lucid dream. I feel like I must be doing really well on a subconscious level. It seems to take forever for newer ways of doing things to ingrain themselves into our brains enough to show up in our non-lucid state.

So I think that WE are real inside a dream, despite a dream being real or not.

Are dreams real in general? I think so. In their own way - although that way may be different than waking life. A better question might be - how real is waking life? I don't know. And how about What is real? What determines what real is?

I think, when we dream, we're experiencing something similar to the after-life. I think that our dream guides can be just as real as any other person in waking life. Also, some dreams are precognitive - and that's real on a different level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hilary

Whatever absurdity is happening around us in dream, we are still real

---

This appears to be the case.

Quote:

---

(or at least, as real as "we" can be).

---

I think this is limited by how we self identify.

Quote:

---

I think this is true regardless of whether or not we are lucid. It's sort of like being sober vs. being drunk. We're still us, but we're a lot smarter when we're sober. ;) In this way, we're a lot more conscious when we're lucid, but we're still a version of us when we're not. I'm always happy when I do something good in a non-lucid dream. I feel like I must be doing really well on a subconscious level. It seems to take forever for newer ways of doing things to ingrain themselves into our brains enough to show up in our non-lucid state.

---

I feel that having snippets of dreams and working with those in my awakened state are enough for me because they are like hints that I am being no different of personality regardless of whether awake or dreaming.

Quote:

---

So I think that WE are real inside a dream, despite a dream being real or not.

---

This perhaps explains the fundamental reality - that we are the real thing and even this universe is no more real than anything else we experience - because it is the experiencer who is always the fundamentally real thing within any and all experience.

Quote:

---

Are dreams real in general? I think so. In their own way - although that way may be different than waking life. A better question might be - how real is waking life? I don't know. And how about What is real? What determines what real is?

---

That which is real is also that which determines what real is.

We call it "consciousness"

Quote:

---

I think, when we dream, we're experiencing something similar to the after-life. I think that our dream guides can be just as real as any other person in waking life. Also, some dreams are precognitive - and that's real on a different level.

---

Yes - what we call 'dreaming' is known to be real through lucid interaction with it.
In that, the next level ["afterlife" as it is referred to] is simply changing ones dominant reality experience...

Lucid Dreaming et al are indicators that whatever the experience - the experience is 'made real' through the real thing which is having the experience - and without consciousness, what experience can be had, let alone be thought of as 'real'?

By the way, I'm glad that you join the discussion, VVilliam. :)
That is why I would keep on writing the non-lucid ones in your DJ. What is even more important is sleep and recording your sleep cycle... Then you would have a better understanding of who you are and why you dream how you dream with all the messed up dream logic out there. Self- reflection is important also understanding yourself as a person.

I think that non-lucid dreams are just as important as Lucid dreams. However, I think it is wise not getting too wrapped up in if a dreams are real or not. (imo)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lang

By the way, I'm glad that you join the discussion, VVilliam. :)

---

Always happy to engage with things which are interesting to me Lang :)

Quote:

---

That is why I would keep on writing the non-lucid ones in your DJ.

---

I work with my comlist-journal the most as it provides me with the best insights, even re the purpose of dreams.

Quote:

---

What is even more important is sleep and recording your sleep cycle... Then you would have a better understanding of who you are and why you dream how you dream with all the messed up dream logic out there. Self- reflection is important also understanding yourself as a person.

---

Again, insight into 'who I am' is obtained through journalizing and using the journal as a device re Generating Messages. Experience [dreams] are more the stage where the expressions of who I am can be externalized.

Quote:

---

I think that non-lucid dreams are just as important as Lucid dreams. However, I think it is wise not getting too wrapped up in if a dreams are real or not. (imo)

---

I am okay with identifying dreams/all manner of alternate experience] as real experience.