Supernatural Discussion

So I kinda did a bit too offensive topic earlier today, and now I decided to do a more calm one. One of the mods actually told me to do this, so it is weird if this gets locked... But anyway:

So I believe in god. I am a lutherin, and I think, that our ways are quite right. But god is the only "higher" thing, that I belive in. Now, after reading quite a lot of these threads here, I just need the urge to talk about these things. Because for me, it all seems so obvious, that there are no "higher" things. And it seems so obvious, that the things, that are being talked right here, have a scientifical purpose. Like the "magical rocks". It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain (brain = mind). But that the actual effect comes from the placebo effect. It basically means, that when the brain (subconscious) thinks something, it acts like it. So if you´d think, that you have cought the fever, you will provoke a fever (this is actually true). The placebo effect has been widely used in medical science too, for about half of the effect of any drug comes from the placebo effect. So the rock only makes the brain think, that the rock has an effect, and the brain acts like it. For example, if you have a rock, that makes you sleep better, then your brain may, just for this effect, be more alert to melatonin.

And basically, just about all of these "magical" things can be explained with the placebo effect or another simple fact.


And here is the core of this article: When just about all of the stuff here can be explained by science, then why would it not be only, simple science, and nothing "higher"?
Why do you believe, that it is not just science?

Because everyone can have different beliefs of course, also magnets actually have energies <.<
That and hallucinations tends to be the only explanation (apart from lies)

You´ve got a point there.

Thing is science does not account for everything... although we know a lot through science its hardly able to explain a lot of things and things that were "totally impossible" 20 years ago are now accepted by scientists.

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Originally Posted by Nicholars

Thing is science does not account for everything... although we know a lot through science its hardly able to explain a lot of things and things that were "totally impossible" 20 years ago are now accepted by scientists.

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Example?

I think you are pulling random things from your behind, I mean their profession is to test, observe, validate. Those ''things'' you talk about (if there are any) is now accepted probably because scientists tested it, scientist only accept through testing. So they accepted it because they were able to explain it.

All I mean is science cant explain everything for example parallel universes and beyond what we actually presently know about physics and quantum physics, we dont actually KNOW everything eg. the creation of the universe is only made up of theories no one was actually there to prove it (obviously) and i think its a bit of an assumption to say that science at this point can explain a lot of things that have been mentioned in this thread....

Maybe they dont have the apparatus to test these "things" successfully, the human mind far away from being understood as well although a lot is known about it....

As for an example just google for huuman magnetic/energy fields...

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Originally Posted by Nicholars

All I mean is science cant explain everything for example parallel universes and beyond what we actually presently know about physics and quantum physics, we dont actually KNOW everything eg. the creation of the universe is only made up of theories no one was actually there to prove it (obviously) and i think its a bit of an assumption to say that science at this point can explain a lot of things that have been mentioned in this thread....

Maybe they dont have the apparatus to test these "things" successfully, the human mind far away from being understood as well although a lot is known about it....

As for an example just google for huuman magnetic/energy fields...

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I agree, ofc we don`t know everything and only have logical theories on some parts. But Ì don`t understand what you mean by ''just accepted'' by scientists. Scientists don`t just accept things, they need to test to accept. And what was it scientist tought was impossible 20 years ago they now has accpeted?

The explination is magic = science, and science = magic. It's just that we have figured out how some of these things work on a more fundemental level than in the past. A scientist in our time would have for the most part been described as mage/wizard/alchemist in the past and vice verse, its just that we have much much better tools these days so a lot of the explinations seem mundane instead of magical and mysterious. It's possible in the future scientists will have developed much better tools than we have today so they may be able to perfectly explain astral projection, thought forms, and any other thing users of magic/psionics today cannot explain in a scientific fashion, in a mundane manner. That is my opinion anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ghost94

It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain

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*Bashes Ghost94 in the head with a large rock

Magnets affect the human brain, and are in essence just rocks. Many rocks have magnetic properties, it's possible some could have some sort of effect. Certainly radioactive rocks would. Those properties might have been considered magical at one time.

Not that I believe in magical rocks, or even pet rocks, just felt like being a pain.

You believe in God but doubt the ability for anything magical in the world...

Huh?

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Forget what we're told
Before we get too old
Show me a garden that's bursting into life

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

*Bashes Ghost94 in the head with a large rock

Magnets affect the human brain, and are in essence just rocks. Many rocks have magnetic properties, it's possible some could have some sort of effect. Certainly radioactive rocks would. Those properties might have been considered magical at one time.

Not that I believe in magical rocks, or even pet rocks, just felt like being a pain.

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Well, ofc something like a magnet might have just a little effect, and radiation could kill you, but that is beside the point.

I've been on the forums a bit but only recently heard about 'dream sharing' or dreamwalkers/nightstalkers. I guess the proposed mechanism for it is something like telepathy.

It's my opinion that anything like this is completely impossible. I think that people might believe it's happened, but the much more likely explanation is that they have just had a very realistic dream character, and Occam's razor would tell us that this is the explanation to accept.

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Originally Posted by Nicholars

Thing is science does not account for everything... although we know a lot through science its hardly able to explain a lot of things and things that were "totally impossible" 20 years ago are now accepted by scientists.

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You're correct that science doesn't account for everything, and yes, there have been some surprising discoveries, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things we can categorically rule out. Scientists know an awful lot about a lot of different fields now. Neurologists can tell you without a doubt that there is no such thing as telepathy/telekinesis etc., and therefore no such thing as dream sharing.

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Originally Posted by Nicholars

As for an example just google for huuman magnetic/energy fields...

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Someone mentioned something about the different 'energies' that could be what enables this sort of thing. Well there are only 4 different types of forces in the universe, and we know about all of them. We know that there aren't any others, and we can measure all the ones that exist, so this doesn't leave any room to explain an 'energy' that could enable something like this, like two minds communicating while dreaming.

So I guess in summary, while dream sharing would be totally awesome, it's just not a real phenomenon. At least we have lucid dreaming, that's good enough for me.

Science can't even explain gravity next to a 3 word explanation of "bending of space-time". How do you suppose science will explain dreamsharing? Lol you're at a dead end there for sure.

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Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Science can't even explain gravity next to a 3 word explanation of "bending of space-time". How do you suppose science will explain dreamsharing? Lol you're at a dead end there for sure.

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Well firstly gravity can be explained a great deal more than that. And there's also a fair bit of evidence for gravity.

Check out Occam's razor on wikipedia. It basically states "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best."

Anyone can tell that gravity exists. We get pulled toward the Earth, and the Earth orbits the sun. Perhaps it is all just a dream, or an elaborate deception? Well Occam's razor would tell us to just accept that gravity exists.

For dream sharing to work, there would need to be some way for people to communicate, right? There must be some link between their minds.

But we know all the forces that exist in the universe. If this link existed we could measure it. But it doesn't. And we can't.

It sounds like you don't understand how science works. If science didn't have good explanation of gravity, then it wouldn't be a well established theory. Science can explain exactly how gravity acts upon objects.

Ok Mr Scientist, please feel free to explain exactly how gravity acts upon objects. (except for the 3 word explanation of "bending of space-time").

ChaybaChayba,

Firstly, I'm not an expert in the field.

From what I've read gravity is explained by the general theory of relativity. This is some pretty complicated stuff, and I think it would take you or I a long time good deal of reading to understand it.

The thing is though, this is 'good' science. And that means peer reviewed science. So even if neither of us understand it. Each scientist who has made contributions to this theory has had their work reviewed by their peers, i.e. other qualified scientists, to ensure that it's correct, and there are no mistakes. If their work doesn't stand up to review, it doesn't get accepted, and this is how we can have confidence in what scientists say.

Also, scientists will tell you how confident they are in their theories. If there is a new theory for something that is being investigated, then they won't be too sure about it yet, they well tell you. That theory might then get thrown out. But after a long time, and lots of reviewing, they can be very confident in a theory, like they are with general relativity.

The knowledge we have of the universe from these theories does explain gravity. It also provides a huge amount of evidence against things like telepathy or dream sharing.

jatoo

I can tell your not an expert.

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But we know all the forces that exist in the universe. If this link existed we could measure it. But it doesn't. And we can't.

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Hahaha. We know all the forces that exist in the universe. So you've been from one end to the other to confirm your suspicions???

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The knowledge we have of the universe from these theories does explain gravity. It also provides a huge amount of evidence against things like telepathy or dream sharing.

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Source, or bullshit.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

I can tell your not an expert.

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You start your post with a personal attack. That doesn't really help your argument. This is ad hominem and it's a logical fallacy. Whether or not I'm an expert doesn't change the validity of what I am saying, as I'm not the one who researched it. I don't suppose you are an expert in these fields either, and you are arguing your side like I am arguing mine, which makes the attack hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Hahaha. We know all the forces that exist in the universe. So you've been from one end to the other to confirm your suspicions???

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I'm not really sure why you are laughing. This is a known fact. There are four and only four fundamental forces in the universe:

1. The gravitational force
2. The electromagnetic force
3. The strong nuclear force
4. The weak nuclear force

I quote you below as asking for sources. Well for this one you can see Physics for Scientists and Engineers by Paul A. Tipler fourth edition page 91, or any similar physics text book. Or just check out Wikipedia.

The fact that there are only four fundamental forces is not debated at all by anyone, it's universally accepted.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Source, or bullshit.

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I think what you were requesting a source for was my assertion that there is a huge amount of evidence against telepathy and dream sharing.

Well this is a pretty general statement. I don't know of any scientific literature specifically addressing telepathy, but there's probably some around somewhere.

What I had in mind really was the following couple of points. Seeing as we know all the forces that exist in the universe, we would be able measure any wave or energy coming from someones brain that would enable something like this. Nothing like this has been measured, and before you ask for a source for that, let me just say this. The claim here would be that such forces do exist. The null hypothesis would be that they do not. So for the claim to be accepted, evidence needs to be provided to support it, and not the other way around. I'll leave it up to you to find a source for your claim if you like.

My next point was mainly that neurologists will tell you that such things are impossible. I'll quote a blog entry by Dr Steven Novella, an assistant professor of neurology at Yale:

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There is no proposed mechanism for ESP that amounts to a reductionist model based upon established physics or biology. No one has even established any physical features to ESP - meaning that it displays consistent characteristics, such as decreasing with distance, or being blocked by dense substances, or anything. There has been zero progress in zeroing in on what ESP might be as a physical phenomenon.

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The rest of the blog entry can be found here if you are interested.

And my final point would be this - extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence. Claiming that people could communicate telepathically is a very extraordinary claim, and because of this, the responsibility isn't for opponents to disprove it, it is for proponents to provide evidence to support it.

jatoo

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Originally Posted by jatoo

You start your post with a personal attack. That doesn't really help your argument. This is ad hominem and it's a logical fallacy. Whether or not I'm an expert doesn't change the validity of what I am saying, as I'm not the one who researched it. I don't suppose you are an expert in these fields either, and you are arguing your side like I am arguing mine, which makes the attack hypocritical.



I'm not really sure why you are laughing. This is a known fact. There are four and only four fundamental forces in the universe:

1. The gravitational force
2. The electromagnetic force
3. The strong nuclear force
4. The weak nuclear force

I quote you below as asking for sources. Well for this one you can see Physics for Scientists and Engineers by Paul A. Tipler fourth edition page 91, or any similar physics text book. Or just check out Wikipedia.

The fact that there are only four fundamental forces is not debated at all by anyone, it's universally accepted.



I think what you were requesting a source for was my assertion that there is a huge amount of evidence against telepathy and dream sharing.

Well this is a pretty general statement. I don't know of any scientific literature specifically addressing telepathy, but there's probably some around somewhere.

What I had in mind really was the following couple of points. Seeing as we know all the forces that exist in the universe, we would be able measure any wave or energy coming from someones brain that would enable something like this. Nothing like this has been measured, and before you ask for a source for that, let me just say this. The claim here would be that such forces do exist. The null hypothesis would be that they do not. So for the claim to be accepted, evidence needs to be provided to support it, and not the other way around. I'll leave it up to you to find a source for your claim if you like.

My next point was mainly that neurologists will tell you that such things are impossible. I'll quote a blog entry by Dr Steven Novella, an assistant professor of neurology at Yale:



The rest of the blog entry can be found here if you are interested.

And my final point would be this - extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence. Claiming that people could communicate telepathically is a very extraordinary claim, and because of this, the responsibility isn't for opponents to disprove it, it is for proponents to provide evidence to support it.

jatoo

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Not really an attack... more of a sarcastic jab, you said you weren't an expert first. I was asserting your claim.

So you've been billions of miles from earth to make sure their isn't any other kind of forces at work in the universe? I guess facts are different for me and you.

We don't know all the forces that exist in the world, we are an immature race that thinks it knows everything when it really knows next to nothing. We barely have control of the always changing technology that we have, if you think we understand and are able to pick up everything you are quite wrong.

I really don't care what it says on someones blog.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

So you've been billions of miles from earth to make sure their isn't any other kind of forces at work in the universe? I guess facts are different for me and you.

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You keep asking that. Oddly enough, I haven't. It's really beside the point though. This is something which is known by physicists from the research they have done. It is widely agreed upon by physicists throughout the world. If you are willing to dismiss the vast body of scientific knowledge which has come from years of research by hundreds of highly qualified experts, and just go by what you reckon then there really is no reasoning with you and it's pointless debating anything with you at all.

You don't need to travel "billions of miles" to know things about the universe. There's an awful lot scientists can work out from right here on earth.

Fact's are different for me and you? What about you and what is scientific consensus?

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

We don't know all the forces that exist in the world, we are an immature race that thinks it knows everything when it really knows next to nothing. We barely have control of the always changing technology that we have, if you think we understand and are able to pick up everything you are quite wrong.

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The forces present in the universe don't depend on what technology we have. That is an irrelevant point.

You don't seem to understand what science is. We know some things but there are many things that we don't. Scientists don't pretend to know anything they don't. They tell you what they don't know. That is what science is all about, researching the things we don't know. I don't think we understand everything, in fact I know that we don't. No one would argue against that, it's an obvious point.

There are some thing however, that we are sure of. Scientists can build up their body of knowledge, and know some things to great degree of certainty. We know without a doubt that force is equal to mass times acceleration for example (unless you are travelling at a speed close the speed of light). Someone who disagreed with that point would not be taken seriously.

The fact that only four forces exist in the universe is not as commonly known as Newton's second law of motion, so people don't realise how ridiculous it is to disagree with it. Which is fair enough, I wouldn't expect everyone to know it. But once you find it out, then it IS silly to dismiss it or refute it.

Go read a physics text book. If you still don't believe it then you are disagreeing with the consensus of years of research by experts and there is absolutely no reasoning with you.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

I really don't care what it says on someones blog.

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You asked for a source. That's not just "someones blog". It belongs to someone who is a doctor of medicine and an expert in neurology. There's your source.

jatoo

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Originally Posted by jatoo

You keep asking that. Oddly enough, I haven't. It's really beside the point though. This is something which is known by physicists from the research they have done. It is widely agreed upon by physicists throughout the world. If you are willing to dismiss the vast body of scientific knowledge which has come from years of research by hundreds of highly qualified experts, and just go by what you reckon then there really is no reasoning with you and it's pointless debating anything with you at all.

You don't need to travel "billions of miles" to know things about the universe. There's an awful lot scientists can work out from right here on earth.

Fact's are different for me and you? What about you and what is scientific consensus?

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It's known by physicists from the research they have done. Keyword in that sentence being HAVE DONE. Not research that hasn't been conducted yet.

I'm sure before the understanding of nuclear energy, everyone basically agreed the only forms of energy are the ones they are aware of. That's my point, theirs always more to discover. Just because that is what is known now doesn't mean that is all their is. Science thrives on finding the unknown, yet you do a disservice by claiming their could not be any potential forms of energy because it hasn't been discovered.

Years of researching can yield a lot and yield nothing, how many years have we been searching for a true cure to cancer? It's an infantile race syndrome to honestly think we truly understand all the building blocks and complexities of a neverending, constantly expanding universe that could someday stretch to far and bungee back where whence it came. The universe has been around for years a human could only imagine, to think we, after our short tenor of life to "UNDERSTAND" everything is maniacal. Time to rip down the chains, tear off the manacles that hold us back and just accept that in our search for everything we really know nothing.

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The forces present in the universe don't depend on what technology we have. That is an irrelevant point.

You don't seem to understand what science is. We know some things but there are many things that we don't. Scientists don't pretend to know anything they don't. They tell you what they don't know. That is what science is all about, researching the things we don't know. I don't think we understand everything, in fact I know that we don't. No one would argue against that, it's an obvious point.

There are some thing however, that we are sure of. Scientists can build up their body of knowledge, and know some things to great degree of certainty. We know without a doubt that force is equal to mass times acceleration for example (unless you are travelling at a speed close the speed of light). Someone who disagreed with that point would not be taken seriously.

The fact that only four forces exist in the universe is not as commonly known as Newton's second law of motion, so people don't realise how ridiculous it is to disagree with it. Which is fair enough, I wouldn't expect everyone to know it. But once you find it out, then it IS silly to dismiss it or refute it.

Go read a physics text book. If you still don't believe it then you are disagreeing with the consensus of years of research by experts and there is absolutely no reasoning with you.

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The forces present in the universe don't depend on what technology we have. But our ability to perceive and understand it is exponentially affected by our progress. Hundreds of years ago, half of our knowledge of how the world works would be viewed as insanity. Radio waves, Electricity, etc.. Seismic waves, or punishment from god?

"You don't seem to understand what science is." I've been told that only on these forums by so called science experts. What exactly did I say that showed you I don't understand science?

Discovering the unknown through the scientific method, is the most basic way to put it. Science is a very broad subject that can encompass many different things.. I understand science is in the search for what is unknown, not simply understand something and assume that is all their is to it. Which is why theories are very often invalidated, updated, or completely overhauled..

You said I don't understand science and then basically re-iterate what I just said.

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The fact that only four forces exist in the universe is not as commonly known as Newton's second law of motion, so people don't realise how ridiculous it is to disagree with it. Which is fair enough, I wouldn't expect everyone to know it. But once you find it out, then it IS silly to dismiss it or refute it.

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That is your opinion on the matter, I on the other hand find it silly to assume that the theory on physics is completely infallible and to contain everything relating to the subject matter.

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Go read a physics text book. If you still don't believe it then you are disagreeing with the consensus of years of research by experts and there is absolutely no reasoning with you.

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I guess I'll have to disagree with the consensus of years of research by experts. Or then again maybe I just leave wiggle room for error and updating.. Though their theory is quite good and full of some useful information, I highly doubt they truly understand everything even the energies that have been discovered.G et a time machine going, go back a hundred years and try telling everyone about Nuclear/atomic energy. And you can stop reasoning with me, doesn't bother me either way.

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Fact's are different for me and you? What about you and what is scientific consensus?

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Facts are not just something written in a book and researched by multiple people. People are corrupt, I'll trust my instincts.

Fact, I just stood up.
I don't need to run any experiment to prove to myself that I really did just that. To me that is fact.

If you need others to prove something to you, so be it. I'll trust myself. (I'll leave the scientific discoveries to people who find themselves on that path of life.)

Newtons laws in my opinion are lacking, they forget to take into account something pushing back on you the opposite direction.













I am everything, I am nothing.


BRAINBUSTER!!!! TIME!!!

Does Newtons second law of motion, still exist in a black hole?
Discuss.

P.S. I've dipped my head into many a subject, philosophical, mathematical, scientifical(I love inventing new words) and then my favorite language. I consider myself to be highly intelligent, regardless of your opinion on my knowledge or understanding of any subject. I am always open to change and new ideas, I despise tradition for the sake of a collective idea. I understand and read about science while constantly dismantling what is said and looking for alternate possibilities. I could be called a skeptic, I could be called a believer.

Has anyone of you ever heard of Schrödingers cat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

The thought here might be a bit difficult to understand, so I give an easier example:

I have a cat, a steel box where I can't see inside as soon as I shut it and a highly radioactive material.
If I put the cat into the box, then the radioactive material and then close the box. As I open the box again after some time, the cat is dead. When do you think did the cat die? As soon as the box was closed? Sometime while the box was shut? I say the cat died just as I opened the box. Prove me wrong

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Originally Posted by ShadowmanX

Has anyone of you ever heard of Schr&#246;dingers cat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr&#37;C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

The thought here might be a bit difficult to understand, so I give an easier example:

I have a cat, a steel box where I can't see inside as soon as I shut it and a highly radioactive material.
If I put the cat into the box, then the radioactive material and then close the box. As I open the box again after some time, the cat is dead. When do you think did the cat die? As soon as the box was closed? Sometime while the box was shut? I say the cat died just as I opened the box. Prove me wrong

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That's not how it's done and that's not the point of the Schr&#246;dinger's cat thought experiment. Re-red the link you posted.

By the way, why are you still around here liar? :)




DeathCell, you're not making any sense.

That there are 4 fundamental forces is a fact, because they explain every interaction between matter.

You're saying that on other parts of the universe there may exist other forces, but that's completely irrelevant because there's no humans there to perform the supposed supernatural abilities.

If you want to stupidly assume the laws of physics vary across space, fine. But the fact is that everywhere man has been, no new forces or unexplainable interactions have been observed/detected.

To quote Sagan: "What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we'd like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence, rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

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Originally Posted by jatoo

You keep asking that. Oddly enough, I haven't. It's really beside the point though. This is something which is known by physicists from the research they have done. It is widely agreed upon by physicists throughout the world. If you are willing to dismiss the vast body of scientific knowledge which has come from years of research by hundreds of highly qualified experts, and just go by what you reckon then there really is no reasoning with you and it's pointless debating anything with you at all.

You don't need to travel "billions of miles" to know things about the universe. There's an awful lot scientists can work out from right here on earth.

Fact's are different for me and you? What about you and what is scientific consensus?



The forces present in the universe don't depend on what technology we have. That is an irrelevant point.

You don't seem to understand what science is. We know some things but there are many things that we don't. Scientists don't pretend to know anything they don't. They tell you what they don't know. That is what science is all about, researching the things we don't know. I don't think we understand everything, in fact I know that we don't. No one would argue against that, it's an obvious point.

There are some thing however, that we are sure of. Scientists can build up their body of knowledge, and know some things to great degree of certainty. We know without a doubt that force is equal to mass times acceleration for example (unless you are travelling at a speed close the speed of light). Someone who disagreed with that point would not be taken seriously.

The fact that only four forces exist in the universe is not as commonly known as Newton's second law of motion, so people don't realise how ridiculous it is to disagree with it. Which is fair enough, I wouldn't expect everyone to know it. But once you find it out, then it IS silly to dismiss it or refute it.

Go read a physics text book. If you still don't believe it then you are disagreeing with the consensus of years of research by experts and there is absolutely no reasoning with you.



You asked for a source. That's not just "someones blog". It belongs to someone who is a doctor of medicine and an expert in neurology. There's your source.

jatoo

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Not taking any sides here or anything but do you not think its a bit narrow minded to think scientists know everything about energy and dimensions etc... it is quite a good point that we havn't travelled billions of miles and we dont even know where or if the universe ends..... How can anyone conceivably know for certain... its all theories... and taking them as total fact is a bit narrow minded dont you think?

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DeathCell, you're not making any sense.

That there are 4 fundamental forces is a fact, because they explain every interaction between matter.

You're saying that on other parts of the universe there may exist other forces, but that's completely irrelevant because there's no humans there to perform the supposed supernatural abilities.

If you want to stupidly assume the laws of physics vary across space, fine. But the fact is that everywhere man has been, no new forces or unexplainable interactions have been observed/detected.

To quote Sagan: "What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we'd like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence, rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

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I make plenty of sense, I never claim to know for a fact that more exist nor do I claim that four is really the only forces.

I find it silly to assume we understand everything about physics, when physics is such a recent study, we only recently understood how nuclear energy worked...(Recent means 50 + years to me)

I stupidly assume the laws of physics vary across the universe? Apart from your lame potshot, the universe is unbelievably big and half of the shit we see out in the stars is simply by telescope it would take multiple life times to even travel those distances.

That is my point, you can live in your bubble where once a theory is made that it is set in stone and unable to believe that something else might exist out their.

You know what really doesn't count, close-minded thinking. It leads to undiscovery.

You assume that I claim something, all I claim is the possibility... So Mr. Sagan and his quote can stay in your brain.

Sigh...

Again with the close minded card, it's getting old. It's not close minded to not believe in an extraordinary claim which has no evidence supporting it.

Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it:

- No force besides those core 4 has been detected.
- No interaction besides those caused by the core 4 have been observed.
- It's completely irrelevant to this discussion if the laws of physics are different in some other part of the universe, we're not going there anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Sigh...

Again with the close minded card, it's getting old. It's not close minded to not believe in an extraordinary claim which has no evidence supporting it.

Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it:

- No force besides those core 4 has been detected.
- No interaction besides those caused by the core 4 have been observed.
- It's completely irrelevant to this discussion if the laws of physics are different in some other part of the universe, we're not going there anytime soon.

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Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it.

-50 something years ago only 2 forces were known.
-A lot of things haven't been observed, does that mean they don't exist?
- It's not completely irrelevant to this discussion, the universe we all reside in it. And if other energies exist in the universe it should be studied and thought about whether or not we are going there anytime soon.

Global warming isn't gonna kill the planet any time soon, so we should just ignore it?

A hurricane that could flood out parts of the United States is coming, but not anytime soon. No worries.

My claim is not extraordinary, unless you consider the possibility for more information to be available to the human experience than what we already know to be as such. Which in my world is close-minded, I have no proof their is more energy forces, or whether they are the only ones.

Sigh. Off subject, but on subject.

Their could be alternative fuel sources, but we haven't discovered them yet. OMG, What an extraordinary claim!

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it.

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Facepalm...

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-50 something years ago only 2 forces were known.

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Irrelevant. Ignored my post:

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

- No force besides those core 4 has been detected.
- No interaction besides those caused by the core 4 have been observed.

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(for those that actually understand physics, yes I do realize those 2 statements above basically mean the same thing, I just didn't notice when I wrote it.)

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- A lot of things haven't been observed, does that mean they don't exist?

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Again, ignored my post:

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

To quote Sagan: "What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we'd like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence, rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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- It's not completely irrelevant to this discussion, the universe we all reside in it. And if other energies exist in the universe it should be studied and thought about whether or not we are going there anytime soon.

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Again, ignored my post:

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

You're saying that on other parts of the universe there may exist other forces, but that's completely irrelevant because there's no humans there to perform the supposed supernatural abilities.

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Global warming isn't gonna kill the planet any time soon, so we should just ignore it?

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Irrelevant. There's evidence global warming is happening, regardless of it's cause.

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A hurricane that could flood out parts of the United States is coming, but not anytime soon. No worries.

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Irrelevant. In that scenario there's evidence the hurricane is coming.

Quote:

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My claim is not extraordinary, unless you consider the possibility for more information to be available to the human experience than what we already know to be as such. Which in my world is close-minded, I have no proof their is more energy forces, or whether they are the only ones.

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Supernatural is by definition extraordinary, so are the claims of it's existence.

The only ones limiting human development are those that try to circumvent the scientific method, claiming certain specific phenomena are real.

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Sigh. Off subject, but on subject.

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Paradoxical and irrelevant.

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Their could be alternative fuel sources, but we haven't discovered them yet. OMG, What an extraordinary claim!

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Wrong. Energy sources exist, we wouldn't be here if they didn't. It's nothing supernatural or extraordinary at all.

Guys, keep the debate friendly ;)

lol I think DeathCell point was "Some years ago, making claims that airplaines are real was an extraordinary claim, but time changes"
Also, with technology DS is getting close, so I don't see why any other "supernatural" things wouldn't also be possible in the future, maybe not the way people want them to, but meh <.<
I still don't see why believing only what you see is close-minded tough, whats a fact for some is not a fact for others.
Excepting my craziness, thats a fact everywhere.

there are not only four types of forces observed, you (post starter and anyone siding with him on this point) may want to read up on Dark Energy. and no, I dont mean dark in an evil sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology

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Originally Posted by Walms

lol I think DeathCell point was "Some years ago, making claims that airplaines are real was an extraordinary claim, but time changes"

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Making a claim that a machine can fly would definitely have been an extraordinary one in 1900, and so extraordinary evidence was called for. This evidence was delivered though, when aeroplanes started flying around for everyone to see. And not just my neighbour's daughter's best friend has a blurry photograph of one. Watching Orville and Wilbur Wright fly their Wright Flyer was the extraordinary evidence.

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

there are not only four types of forces observed, you (post starter and anyone siding with him on this point) may want to read up on Dark Energy. and no, I dont mean dark in an evil sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology

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While there is obviously a lot still to be discovered about dark energy, I think the thing to remember is that it is an energy not a force. Like kinetic energy, or thermal energy. Communication between the minds of two people like is being proposed in dream sharing would require energy, but more importantly it would also require a force for the transmission of that energy.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it.

-50 something years ago only 2 forces were known.
-A lot of things haven't been observed, does that mean they don't exist?
- It's not completely irrelevant to this discussion, the universe we all reside in it. And if other energies exist in the universe it should be studied and thought about whether or not we are going there anytime soon.

---

When only two forces were known, scientist wouldn't have told you that they know all the forces that exist in the universe, as they wouldn't have had a complete model for how things work. Now they do, and they can tell you that there are only four.

We can say that these are the only forces in the universe, but even if we were to concede you point that we haven't checked on the other side of the universe (and I definitely do not concede this), then as Scatterbrain points out, this is irrelevant to what we are discussing. Even if a new, unknown force exists 2 billion lightyears away, if it doesn't exist here, it certainly can't be the mechanism for dream sharing can it?

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Global warming isn't gonna kill the planet any time soon, so we should just ignore it?

A hurricane that could flood out parts of the United States is coming, but not anytime soon. No worries.

My claim is not extraordinary, unless you consider the possibility for more information to be available to the human experience than what we already know to be as such. Which in my world is close-minded, I have no proof their is more energy forces, or whether they are the only ones.

Sigh. Off subject, but on subject.

Their could be alternative fuel sources, but we haven't discovered them yet. OMG, What an extraordinary claim!

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I don't think your analogy really fits. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If your point you are arguing against is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, then the examples you choose aren't too extraordinary, and there is sufficient evidence for us not to rule out their possibility, or say that they are likely to occur.

We've seen hurricanes in the US before, and have no reason to expect we won't see them again. We have evidence for them, we know they happen. The claim that there could be alternative fuel sources is not extraordinary. Why do you say that it is?

The claim that dreamsharing is possible is, as Scatterbrain points out, extraordinary, because it goes against everything we know about physics and the human brain. It also has never been observed in controlled conditions.

Oh and Scatterbrain, thanks for joining in! :thumbup:

While there may be only 4 PHYSICAL forces, scientists have no way yet to measure ASTRAL forces/energies.

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Originally Posted by Neeros

While there may be only 4 PHYSICAL forces, scientists have no way yet to measure ASTRAL forces/energies.

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Umm. I don't really know what to say. "ASTRAL forces/energies" must be physical.

What do you mean?

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Originally Posted by jatoo

While there is obviously a lot still to be discovered about dark energy, I think the thing to remember is that it is an energy not a force. Like kinetic energy, or thermal energy. Communication between the minds of two people like is being proposed in dream sharing would require energy, but more importantly it would also require a force for the transmission of that energy.

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right, but the article says they use this energy to explain forces that are observed to be exerted on celestial bodies that are abnormal with the current model...could further research lead to another force unique to this energy?

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

right, but the article says they use this energy to explain forces that are observed to be exerted on celestial bodies that are abnormal with the current model...could further research lead to another force unique to this energy?

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Cutting to the chase, are you suggesting that dark energy is responsible for dreamsharing? If you are, just imaging saying that to the physicists who research dark energy and imagine their response.

If not, then this is irrelevant.

The abnormality you are talking about doesn't imply another force in the universe. The reason that physicists believe dark matter might exist is because of things like microwave energy, and gravitational pulls, that aren't currently accounted for. These forces (microwave which is electromagnetic, and gravitation) are of the four known by scientists, which we have been discussing.

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Originally Posted by Neeros

While there may be only 4 PHYSICAL forces, scientists have no way yet to measure ASTRAL forces/energies.

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If those "astral forces" affect our world in such a meaningful way as to allow supernatural phenomena to happen, the interactions should be easy to detect.

Show me the proof.

lol everyone arguing the same point "believe what I see"
I don't get it tough, why ask for proof that will be called fake no matter what? Unless, of course, someone took enough time to make proof for the proof, but thats kinda like the "reality" game <.<

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jatoo

Cutting to the chase, are you suggesting that dark energy is responsible for dreamsharing? If you are, just imaging saying that to the physicists who research dark energy and imagine their response.

If not, then this is irrelevant.

The abnormality you are talking about doesn't imply another force in the universe. The reason that physicists believe dark matter might exist is because of things like microwave energy, and gravitational pulls, that aren't currently accounted for. These forces (microwave which is electromagnetic, and gravitation) are of the four known by scientists, which we have been discussing.

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No Im not implying this, that would be asinine. Im simply stating we do not have a complete model yet. So it is relevant. Especially if these effects on waves (which carry energy) are not accounted for.

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Originally Posted by Walms

lol everyone arguing the same point "believe what I see"
I don't get it tough, why ask for proof that will be called fake no matter what? Unless, of course, someone took enough time to make proof for the proof, but thats kinda like the "reality" game <.<

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That's a very crappy excuse for not providing proof.

Actually it's probably the best excuse there is for this subject.

It may be the best one they have, but it's no good. :P

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

It may be the best one they have, but it's no good. :P

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If you want proof that will ultimately satifiy you personally I suggest you try out some of these things for yourself. Energy manipulation is not a hard thing to learn if you give it good honest effort.

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Irrelevant. Ignored my post:





Again, ignored my post:






Again, ignored my post:






Irrelevant. There's evidence global warming is happening, regardless of it's cause.





Irrelevant. In that scenario there's evidence the hurricane is coming.





Supernatural is by definition extraordinary, so are the claims of it's existence.

The only ones limiting human development are those that try to circumvent the scientific method, claiming certain specific phenomena are real.





Paradoxical and irrelevant.





Wrong. Energy sources exist, we wouldn't be here if they didn't. It's nothing supernatural or extraordinary at all.

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You seem to think I ignored your post when in all actuality, I disagree with your view. You seem to think whats known in certain subjects is certainly all that exists, I on the other hand accept that other forces could exist. Far away from here, and maybe within your own body. I'll leave those studies to someone else, till then I'll be foolishly predicting the future through a paradoxical anomaly while you live in a world of logic perception.

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Making a claim that a machine can fly would definitely have been an extraordinary one in 1900, and so extraordinary evidence was called for. This evidence was delivered though, when aeroplanes started flying around for everyone to see. And not just my neighbour's daughter's best friend has a blurry photograph of one. Watching Orville and Wilbur Wright fly their Wright Flyer was the extraordinary evidence.

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The world was believed to be flat at one time, it was impossible to sway the general public. Or prove it to them for that matter, especially with the powers in charge. Time hasn't changed that much.

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While there is obviously a lot still to be discovered about dark energy, I think the thing to remember is that it is an energy not a force. Like kinetic energy, or thermal energy. Communication between the minds of two people like is being proposed in dream sharing would require energy, but more importantly it would also require a force for the transmission of that energy.

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Energy, force, seems to be a jumble of wordology. Use the force luke.

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When only two forces were known, scientist wouldn't have told you that they know all the forces that exist in the universe, as they wouldn't have had a complete model for how things work. Now they do, and they can tell you that there are only four.

We can say that these are the only forces in the universe, but even if we were to concede you point that we haven't checked on the other side of the universe (and I definitely do not concede this), then as Scatterbrain points out, this is irrelevant to what we are discussing. Even if a new, unknown force exists 2 billion lightyears away, if it doesn't exist here, it certainly can't be the mechanism for dream sharing can it?

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See that is where you are wrong, I'd be willing to bet they said only two forces exist because that was the information they had. Or did they say, we got two knowns and two unknowns that we are working on.. Other forces could be left undiscovered in our backyard, or billions of miles away.

I didn't say anything was a mechanism for dream sharing, I only said other forces might exist in our galaxy, or simply in the universe. In our bodies, in our souls, who knows. To simply assume because four have been discovered that nothing else exists or it's irrelevant because of distance. I on the other hand look at distance as nothing but an illusion in a time-space continuum. To each his own, some are destined to be open some closed. Some logical, some imaginative. Some both.

Once again I was not claiming anything about mechanisms of dream sharing.

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I don't think your analogy really fits. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If your point you are arguing against is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, then the examples you choose aren't too extraordinary, and there is sufficient evidence for us not to rule out their possibility, or say that they are likely to occur.

We've seen hurricanes in the US before, and have no reason to expect we won't see them again. We have evidence for them, we know they happen. The claim that there could be alternative fuel sources is not extraordinary. Why do you say that it is?

The claim that dreamsharing is possible is, as Scatterbrain points out, extraordinary, because it goes against everything we know about physics and the human brain. It also has never been observed in controlled conditions.

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My analogy was quite simple, close minded thoughts like something isn't close so it doesn't matter just holds back our race. It's not gonna help science learn anything, assuming the impossible and you will find the impossible.

I didn't say hurricanes were extraordinary, I said not preparing for them or just choosing not to believe in them because of a lack of proof would be. Yes, we all know hurricanes exist.

Live in a world defined by what we already know, instead of defining the future with the unknown. I won't.

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

- It's completely irrelevant to this discussion if the laws of physics are different in some other part of the universe, we're not going there anytime soon.

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If we can observe distant parts of the universe (which we can) then it is relevant.

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

- No force besides those core 4 has been detected.
- No interaction besides those caused by the core 4 have been observed.

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I'd like to propose an unknown force. What is it that shapes every single snow flake into a six sided hexagon, as well as the craters on the moon and other planets/moons into perfect hexagons? (Detailed moon image here: http://www.rc-astro.com/photo/id1018_big.html)

This can't just happen for no reason, and if it can be explained with the current known 4 forces, I'd love to hear the explanation. Unfortunately most of the close minded people refuse to even let themselves see the obvious hexagonal craters on the moon, which is mind boggling, since it's so obvious.

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Originally Posted by Neeros

If you want proof that will ultimately satifiy you personally I suggest you try out some of these things for yourself. Energy manipulation is not a hard thing to learn if you give it good honest effort.

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Energy manipulation is bullshit. "Ohh I feel my hands warm", oh really? We're in a LD forum, everyone knows how our perceptions can be manipulated.

I did try telekinesis at various times, with no results. If abilities like these are real, people able to to them should have no trouble making a demonstration.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

You seem to think I ignored your post when in all actuality, I disagree with your view. You seem to think whats known in certain subjects is certainly all that exists, I on the other hand accept that other forces could exist. Far away from here, and maybe within your own body. I'll leave those studies to someone else, till then I'll be foolishly predicting the future through a paradoxical anomaly while you live in a world of logic perception.

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That we disagree is obvious since we're arguing. But the fact is you either ignored my post or failed to realise the flaws and irrelevance of your points.

I guess I should just be happy that this time you repeated your empty arguments succinctly.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

If we can observe distant parts of the universe (which we can) then it is relevant.

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It was being argued that supernatural phenomena are possible HERE, on EARTH. Then, after it was mentioned that the 4 fundamental forces don't support such phenomena, it was argued that the laws of physic may be different somewhere else in the universe. ("somewhere else" as in "NOT IN THE PLACE WHERE YOU WERE ARGUING SUPERNATURAL EVENTS HAPPEN")

So no, it isn't relevant at all.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

I'd like to propose an unknown force. What is it that shapes every single snow flake into a six sided hexagon, as well as the craters on the moon and other planets/moons into perfect hexagons? (Detailed moon image here: http://www.rc-astro.com/photo/id1018_big.html)

This can't just happen for no reason, and if it can be explained with the current known 4 forces, I'd love to hear the explanation. Unfortunately most of the close minded people refuse to even let themselves see the obvious hexagonal craters on the moon, which is mind boggling, since it's so obvious.

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Gee, I thought a perfect hexagon looked like this:
http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/36100/361...n_36136_md.gif

I can't even see crappy hexagons in the moon. At most there's some craters with "edges".

But let's close our eyes for a second and imagine those craters are indeed hexagonal. Now I'd like you to explain to me why the lack of an explanation for hexagonal craters on the moon proves the existence of an unknown force, and how that unknown force proves the existence of any supernatural abilities. (like telekinesis, energy manipulation, or maybe that dreamstalker roleplaying thing)

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

That we disagree is obvious since we're arguing. But the fact is you either ignored my post or failed to realise the flaws and irrelevance of your points.

I guess I should just be happy that this time you repeated your empty arguments succinctly.

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Didn't ignore your post once again, not agreeing with you because a Physics book says their are only four forces in the world doesn't mean I'm ignoring. It means I choose not to buy into your sentiments on the situation. Their is nothing flawed about what I said, I neither know for a fact if or if not more forces exist.

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I did try telekinesis at various times, with no results. If abilities like these are real, people able to to them should have no trouble making a demonstration.

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Trying something for 5 minutes doesn't mean you put in effort. I could try to learn a very advanced form of robotics engineering and fail if I only spent a couple of minutes on it. I personally know no one capable of Telekinesis, whether it exists or not I'm unsure. On the other hand I've had visions of the future on multiple occasions.

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It was being argued that supernatural phenomena are possible HERE, on EARTH. Then, after it was mentioned that the 4 fundamental forces don't support such phenomena, it was argued that the laws of physic may be different somewhere else in the universe. ("somewhere else" as in "NOT IN THE PLACE WHERE YOU WERE ARGUING SUPERNATURAL EVENTS HAPPEN")

So no, it isn't relevant at all.

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My mentioning forces far away because I figured maybe you and like minded individuals would be able to grasp a concept of something more to the universe if it was far away from you. Obviously it doesn't seem to matter to you either way whether forces other than the four exist, because you read a physics book and only four exist, remember kids science never changes. It's a static art... I guess I'll argue than, forces could exist in our world that we are unaware of because they work in mysterious ways.

Same universe either way, so it's all relevant. Can't escape the all that encompasses everything!

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unknown force proves the existence of any supernatural abilities. (like telekinesis, energy manipulation, or maybe that dreamstalker roleplaying

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You seem to think we are having one argument when their are multiple, first argument is whether or not tele, dreamwalking, energy manipulation is possible. Than the second part is about whether other forces could exist in the universe.

They are separate, you don't know that fundamental forces are needed for these skills.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Didn't ignore your post once again, not agreeing with you because a Physics book says their are only four forces in the world doesn't mean I'm ignoring. It means I choose not to buy into your sentiments on the situation. Their is nothing flawed about what I said, I neither know for a fact if or if not more forces exist.

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I already explained why the points were irrelevant, not doing it again sorry.

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Trying something for 5 minutes doesn't mean you put in effort. I could try to learn a very advanced form of robotics engineering and fail if I only spent a couple of minutes on it. I personally know no one capable of Telekinesis, whether it exists or not I'm unsure. On the other hand I've had visions of the future on multiple occasions.

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1. Don't pretend you know how much time I wasted trying telekinesis.
2. Don't try to compare learning telekinesis with studying engineering sciences.
3. If you're "unsure" about telekinesis, I would assume you're also "unsure" about god, and unsure about the possibility of levitation, bending time and space with the mind, spontaneous regeneration, the flying spaghetti monster, etc.

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My mentioning forces far away because I figured maybe you and like minded individuals would be able to grasp a concept of something more to the universe if it was far away from you. Obviously it doesn't seem to matter to you either way whether forces other than the four exist, because you read a physics book and only four exist, remember kids science never changes. It's a static art... I guess I'll argue than, forces could exist in our world that we are unaware of because they work in mysterious ways.

Same universe either way, so it's all relevant. Can't escape the all that encompasses everything!

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The scientific method doesn't change, why should it? It's the body of knowledge that does change. But it only changes through the scientific method, otherwise would lead to trouble.

You know what's neat about Universities? They don't just teach knowledge, they produce knowledge. So by attending to an University, you not only get to have contact with researchers, but in the future you may get the chance of participating in research yourself.

One more thing, you speak as if studying science is just memorizing facts, or what the scientific community deems as such. That's completely false and just goes to show how much you know. :roll:

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You seem to think we are having one argument when their are multiple, first argument is whether or not tele, dreamwalking, energy manipulation is possible. Than the second part is about whether other forces could exist in the universe.

They are separate, you don't know that fundamental forces are needed for these skills.

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No. The argument was about supernatural abilities/phenomena. It was only after the physics argument was used that you or someone else started the parallel discussion about the fundamental forces.

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

I already explained why the points were irrelevant, not doing it again sorry.

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The points aren't irrelevant, you just choose to invalidate them.
I on the other hand don't look at your word, or the writers of Physic law to be the final word.

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1. Don't pretend you know how much time I wasted trying telekinesis.
2. Don't try to compare learning telekinesis with studying engineering sciences.
3. If you're "unsure" about telekinesis, I would assume you're also "unsure" about god, and unsure about the possibility of levitation, bending time and space with the mind, spontaneous regeneration, the flying spaghetti monster, etc.

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1. Your attitude about the study of it shows that you really didn't put any time into it, but that's just a guess.
2. I'll compare whatever I deem necessary. I was showing the point that putting little time into something will very rarely yield something successful.
3. I'm less unsure about a god/goddess, I know their is something more to life than just a coincidence. Levitation seems a possibility to me, unsure about it for sure I've heard certain yogis have been able to do it, I'd sure like to see one in action. I have bent time with my mind, but it was probably within my reality only, in fact I believe many a sports star has this ability. Ever had your reality slow down when something was flying at your face and being able to catch it for instance? This is different than the whole world actually slowing down on a persons whim, your able to slow down what you see and react faster.. spontaneous regeneration I have no opinion on, sounds like something other animals do on a daily basis? Worms? I actually saw the flying spaghetti monster yesterday...

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The scientific method doesn't change, why should it? It's the body of knowledge that does change. But it only changes through the scientific method, otherwise would lead to trouble.

You know what's neat about Universities? They don't just teach knowledge, they produce knowledge. So by attending to an University, you not only get to have contact with researchers, but in the future you may get the chance of participating in research yourself.

One more thing, you speak as if studying science is just memorizing facts, or what the scientific community deems as such. That's completely false and just goes to show how much you know.

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When did I say the scientific method changed? All I've been saying is, their is a possibility that more than the four currently known forces could exist. That doesn't change the scientific method.

I noticed it's hard for you to pick out my sarcasm, I'm very sarcastic I apologize for this.
I don't think science is just memorizing facts, I think a lot of people who call themselves fans of science are just part of the memorizing facts section, and forget that experimenting and the scientific method and keeping an open mind are what helps science breath and keep us moving forward as a society. I know and understand science quite well, the problem is people are taking scientific laws as if they are static when things can change and have changed before. Which is why I mentioned their were two forces missing from the equation 50 something years ago..

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No. The argument was about supernatural abilities/phenomena. It was only after the physics argument was used that you or someone else started the parallel discussion about the fundamental forces.

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Keyword in what you said, was.

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IN BRIEF: The past tense of the first and third person singular of the verb "to be".

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After another discussion started it became two separate subjects being talked about. You just combined them into one, when I was not insinuating that.

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Blah blah blah, blahbitty blah

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Dude, your posts are so weak and senseless, they're not even worth responding to. At least they make me laugh.

This is just a verbal game to you. You don't actually take the time to look into anything. Take that moon image, if I were to suggest you take the time consider erosion and the effects of other crater impacts evident from the coloration, you wouldn't do that. You would latch onto the words erosion and impact craters, then spit out the first lame thing that pops into your head that belittles it. Then you further covalute things in a long twisted logic web to dodge any valid points against you.

Go play your word games somewhere else!

I wonder when I said I was in the side of supernatural <.<
Anyway, because the forces we know say its impossible for telekinesis and the like to be real, its useless to show "proof" as it can be easily called a "lie" and/or "cheating". Also, the proof wanted, as how I see it, needs the use of the technology we currently have, which, because that technology is based on the 4 forces, its impossible to create the proof with it, or at least, one that satisfies everyone.

That in the case its real and a new force.
In the case its real and within the 4 forces, then there is the chance to create a new machine that allows to show the proof, but that would take tons of money and time, or even better, there is already the machine, but nobody wants to believe it/needs improvement lol
In the case its not real, we can all live a happy life, right?

Now that I look at it... the moon doesn't seems to have "perfect" hexagons.
And, isn't there a study on water and the shape it takes? Like its linked to certain emotions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Walms

Now that I look at it... the moon doesn't seems to have "perfect" hexagons.
And, isn't there a study on water and the shape it takes? Like its linked to certain emotions?

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No it is not linked to that emotion crap. That supposedly affects the individual fractal pattern, but nothing changes the 6 pointed hexagon pattern.

If you're just going to glance at that moon image for a few seconds, don't bother. Yes, there are a few perfect ones, but if you don't want to take the time to understand what you're looking at, it's because you don't want to see them.

Ah my bad, what I wanted to say is "Don't have many perfect hexagons" Saw some, but most of those look irregular, after all, time damages the form and so does other craters that are close lol
And I think there are a few that have nothing to do with a hexagon too <.<

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Walms

Ah my bad, what I wanted to say is "Don't have many perfect hexagons" Saw some, but most of those look irregular, after all, time damages the form and so does other craters that are close lol
And I think there are a few that have nothing to do with a hexagon too <.<

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You're right, there are a few pentagons and octagons as well, but mostly hexagons. It's kind of hard to retain a perfect shape when they are constantly being bombarded by other meteors (relatively speaking). The newer ones (less eroded, higher ridges) seem to be rounder, and the older, more eroded flatter ones seem to show these geometric shape more predominantly.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread with this hexagon stuff, but it's a perfect example of people blatantly ignoring the obvious evidence without taking the time to every try to understand what's happening.

Why do people who don't believe in this stuff spend so much time and effort here trying to dismiss it? (didn't mean you walms)

Wow, interesting discussion. Always funny to see how scientific-minded and open-minded people collide.

I wonder if any understanding is ever possible, though. These two groups look like different species, one is oriented at "we can prove or disprove everything by science and logic", another is oriented at "science and logic are too limited to serve as proof or disproof".

But the person who started this topic believes in God, I find his stance towards the supernatural a little strange. After all, it's known via the Bible that magic exists and that God dislikes its users. According to the Bible itself, there are other beings along with God who are capable of helping a human being perform unusual deeds.

Magical rocks he mentioned are also explainable via the Bible, as our desires are divided into bad and good, bad coming from or summoned by demons. "The subconscious" is swarming with demons, and it's no surprise that something a little extraordinary may happen once in a while if we want it a lot, why wouldn't demons help us satisfy selfish desires as much (or rather as little, as they can't do much) as they can!

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

right, but the article says they use this energy to explain forces that are observed to be exerted on celestial bodies that are abnormal with the current model...could further research lead to another force unique to this energy?

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No. The four fundamental forces explain all the interactions in the universe - Occam's Razor, once again. Use the least assumptions. There is no need for another force. The ones we know explain everything.

The effect is unexplained because it wouldn't make sense without the dark energy. The dark energy allows an explanation for these unknown effects, but through existing, known forces, i.e. one of the four fundamental forces.

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Originally Posted by tkdyo

No Im not implying this, that would be asinine. Im simply stating we do not have a complete model yet. So it is relevant. Especially if these effects on waves (which carry energy) are not accounted for.

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You are right in that we do not have a complete model yet. The strive for a complete model, is a strive to unify the four fundamental forces. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that there are four fundamental forces in the universe and only four. No serious science is being done looking for a new force because of the huge amount of confidence in that there are only four.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Energy, force, seems to be a jumble of wordology. Use the force luke.

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Energy and force are two, very distinct things. It's important to understand this to understand anything about the claims being made about what forces are in the universe. The four forces are as mentioned. Types of energy include kinetic energy (the energy a moving object has) thermal energy, chemical potential energy, etc.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

See that is where you are wrong, I'd be willing to bet they said only two forces exist because that was the information they had. Or did they say, we got two knowns and two unknowns that we are working on.. Other forces could be left undiscovered in our backyard, or billions of miles away.

I didn't say anything was a mechanism for dream sharing, I only said other forces might exist in our galaxy, or simply in the universe. In our bodies, in our souls, who knows. To simply assume because four have been discovered that nothing else exists or it's irrelevant because of distance. I on the other hand look at distance as nothing but an illusion in a time-space continuum. To each his own, some are destined to be open some closed. Some logical, some imaginative. Some both.

Once again I was not claiming anything about mechanisms of dream sharing.

My analogy was quite simple, close minded thoughts like something isn't close so it doesn't matter just holds back our race. It's not gonna help science learn anything, assuming the impossible and you will find the impossible.

I didn't say hurricanes were extraordinary, I said not preparing for them or just choosing not to believe in them because of a lack of proof would be. Yes, we all know hurricanes exist.

Live in a world defined by what we already know, instead of defining the future with the unknown. I won't.

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No, I am not wrong. Any good scientist of that time would not have claimed that we know all the forces in the universe. Good scientists do not make such claims unless they have reason to believe so. Reason obviously did not exist then, but it does now, and this is why scientists tell us that there are only four. The overwhelming scientific consensus.

You really missed the point. You are claiming dreamsharing is possible, I am claiming it is not. If you say that we don't know the forces that exist in the universe as part of your argument then you are suggesting that a new, unknown force could be the mechanism for dreamsharing. If this is not what you are claiming then we should not be debating the existence of forces in the universe. Please stop arguing points which are not relevant to the discussion.

The point of distance, I'll explain once again. If the force doesn't exist on earth this means that it cannot be experienced by anyone on earth, be created by anyone on earth or affect anyone on earth. If this is the case, then it cannot have any effect on dreamsharing as all humans are on, or very close to earth. It is therefore completely irrelevant to the topic of dreamsharing, and I wish you need to stop bringing it up, or explain the relevance.

Whether or not any claimed thinking on the part of people arguing against the existence of dreamsharing hinders the progress of the human race is irrelevant to whether or not dreamsharing exists. This is an ad hominem attack. Stop this attack of closed mindedness and present actual arguments or evidence for your case.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

If we can observe distant parts of the universe (which we can) then it is relevant.

I'd like to propose an unknown force. What is it that shapes every single snow flake into a six sided hexagon, as well as the craters on the moon and other planets/moons into perfect hexagons? (Detailed moon image here: http://www.rc-astro.com/photo/id1018_big.html)

This can't just happen for no reason, and if it can be explained with the current known 4 forces, I'd love to hear the explanation. Unfortunately most of the close minded people refuse to even let themselves see the obvious hexagonal craters on the moon, which is mind boggling, since it's so obvious.

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No it is not relevant. No humans are dreaming in distant parts of the universe.

There is no mystical force creating hexagons. The reason people see things like shapes, or faces (or even Kermit the frog) on the Moon or Mars, or the clouds is due to a phenomenon known as Pareidolia.

As for ice, "The 6-fold symmetry arises from the hexagonal crystal structure of ordinary ice." See wikipedia.

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Originally Posted by Walms

I wonder when I said I was in the side of supernatural <.<
Anyway, because the forces we know say its impossible for telekinesis and the like to be real, its useless to show "proof" as it can be easily called a "lie" and/or "cheating". Also, the proof wanted, as how I see it, needs the use of the technology we currently have, which, because that technology is based on the 4 forces, its impossible to create the proof with it, or at least, one that satisfies everyone.

That in the case its real and a new force.
In the case its real and within the 4 forces, then there is the chance to create a new machine that allows to show the proof, but that would take tons of money and time, or even better, there is already the machine, but nobody wants to believe it/needs improvement lol
In the case its not real, we can all live a happy life, right?

Now that I look at it... the moon doesn't seems to have "perfect" hexagons.
And, isn't there a study on water and the shape it takes? Like its linked to certain emotions?

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Eh... Water is not affected by emotion.

A test to convince even the most sceptically minded person would be easy to design. Have two people claiming telepathic abilities who have not met one another communicate a randomly selected word from a very large database from one to the other. Repeat this many times, with many people. Ensure the test is run with proper scientific controls. If such an ability exists, this would be easy to do, and would provide extremely compelling evidence.

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o, I am not wrong. Any good scientist of that time would not have claimed that we know all the forces in the universe. Good scientists do not make such claims unless they have reason to believe so. Reason obviously did not exist then, but it does now, and this is why scientists tell us that there are only four. The overwhelming scientific consensus.

You really missed the point. You are claiming dreamsharing is possible, I am claiming it is not. If you say that we don't know the forces that exist in the universe as part of your argument then you are suggesting that a new, unknown force could be the mechanism for dreamsharing. If this is not what you are claiming then we should not be debating the existence of forces in the universe. Please stop arguing points which are not relevant to the discussion.

The point of distance, I'll explain once again. If the force doesn't exist on earth this means that it cannot be experienced by anyone on earth, be created by anyone on earth or affect anyone on earth. If this is the case, then it cannot have any effect on dreamsharing as all humans are on, or very close to earth. It is therefore completely irrelevant to the topic of dreamsharing, and I wish you need to stop bringing it up, or explain the relevance.

Whether or not any claimed thinking on the part of people arguing against the existence of dreamsharing hinders the progress of the human race is irrelevant to whether or not dreamsharing exists. This is an ad hominem attack. Stop this attack of closed mindedness and present actual arguments or evidence for your case.

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My point was never dreamsharing, never. I have really almost no opinion on that subject.

My point was other forces could exist, if not here somewhere in the universe.
I don't believe the laws of physics to be static, I believe they could possibly be amended at some time to an unknown force.

And once again, never was my point dreamsharing, only the possibility for other forces to exist. I don't need to prove to you that it is possible, you need to stop the closemindedness. You keep telling me that because a lot of scientists agree than it is an unshakable fact, and than claim distance makes the existence of another energy unimportant, maybe to dream sharing but once again not my point.

Yes I did say it is possible for dreamsharing, but the argument of other forces existing wasn't assuming it was affecting dream sharing.

I'm quite able to understand the point of distance, thanks for your interpenetration..

Interpretation maybe :)

Why are we DEBATING this in Beyond Dreaming? I thought the whole point of this section was to stay open minded. To assume the thing exists, and discuss it from that point of view.


Summary: Some if not most people experience amazing things in their lives. The others pass these things off as coincidence or overreaction.

I say in a few centuries, if not decades, most of these new preposterous things will fall under the category of "science".

And we'll look back at our ancestors and laugh at how close minded they were.

I don't think a test of the kind would work, there are many things to consider, like the guy is just too good at reading peoples body, got lucky on some, the things people "think" gets greatly affected by the knowledge of the experiment, so its easy to cheat, or everyone is just doing a collective lie to win themselves some money, unless there were a machine to make it easy for everyone, because people like easy things <.<

And I think BD is open to debate, as long as there is no flaming/trolling going on.
That and I don't think believing on science is close-minded lol

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Originally Posted by WaterSquirrel

Why are we DEBATING this in Beyond Dreaming? I thought the whole point of this section was to stay open minded. To assume the thing exists, and discuss it from that point of view.


Summary: Some if not most people experience amazing things in their lives. The others pass these things off as coincidence or overreaction.

I say in a few centuries, if not decades, most of these new preposterous things will fall under the category of "science".

And we'll look back at our ancestors and laugh at how close minded they were.

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Well, those who don`t believe in the supernatural doesn`t say the supernatural doesn`t exist, we just don`t believe it does. We don`t say to stop research it. So why not discuss it even if we don`t believe it?

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Originally Posted by WaterSquirrel

Why are we DEBATING this in Beyond Dreaming? I thought the whole point of this section was to stay open minded. To assume the thing exists, and discuss it from that point of view.

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The point of the section is not to be open minded, you can find that anywhere. The section is for people who believe supernatural topics, and not for questioning them. Threads like this one are different, because the OP brought science into the discussion.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

1. Your attitude about the study of it shows that you really didn't put any time into it, but that's just a guess.
2. I'll compare whatever I deem necessary. I was showing the point that putting little time into something will very rarely yield something successful.
3. I'm less unsure about a god/goddess, I know their is something more to life than just a coincidence. Levitation seems a possibility to me, unsure about it for sure I've heard certain yogis have been able to do it, I'd sure like to see one in action. I have bent time with my mind, but it was probably within my reality only, in fact I believe many a sports star has this ability. Ever had your reality slow down when something was flying at your face and being able to catch it for instance? This is different than the whole world actually slowing down on a persons whim, your able to slow down what you see and react faster.. spontaneous regeneration I have no opinion on, sounds like something other animals do on a daily basis? Worms? I actually saw the flying spaghetti monster yesterday...

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I did put a lot of time into telekinesis, I believed in all kind of supernatural things when I was younger, even now I want to believe in ESP.

The last point I was making is that you can imagine an infinite number of unfalsifiable "possibilities" with no proof supporting them. I actually referenced many powers from the tv show 'Heroes'

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When did I say the scientific method changed? All I've been saying is, their is a possibility that more than the four currently known forces could exist. That doesn't change the scientific method.

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You said science doesn't change, but left implied that there's something wrong with that. I merely pointed out that only the knowledge is supposed to change and not the method.

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I noticed it's hard for you to pick out my sarcasm, I'm very sarcastic I apologize for this.
I don't think science is just memorizing facts, I think a lot of people who call themselves fans of science are just part of the memorizing facts section, and forget that experimenting and the scientific method and keeping an open mind are what helps science breath and keep us moving forward as a society. I know and understand science quite well, the problem is people are taking scientific laws as if they are static when things can change and have changed before. Which is why I mentioned their were two forces missing from the equation 50 something years ago.

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You'll notice that, at very least, people studying science at University level know better than anyone to keep an open mind. Part of the education is focused on developing critical thinking and skepticism, and understanding the scientific method. To prove my point, just yesterday I didn't reply to the thread because I had a Physics test and a lecture which was in part about the history of the scientific method, physics and engineering.

The point is, there "could be" another unknown force, however, as of now we haven't observed or detected an interaction outside of the 4 fundamental forces. Until we do, there's no reason to assume the existence of a new force.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

Dude, your posts are so weak and senseless, they're not even worth responding to. At least they make me laugh.

This is just a verbal game to you. You don't actually take the time to look into anything. Take that moon image, if I were to suggest you take the time consider erosion and the effects of other crater impacts evident from the coloration, you wouldn't do that. You would latch onto the words erosion and impact craters, then spit out the first lame thing that pops into your head that belittles it. Then you further covalute things in a long twisted logic web to dodge any valid points against you.

Go play your word games somewhere else!

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Ah, I understand now why you never leave the beyond dreaming section, you don't take criticism too well. :?

The craters don't seem to have a hexagon shape, at most you could say they're polygonal.

If they are hexagonal, polygonal, or whatever, the lack of an explanation for the fact doesn't prove the existence of a new force, it just proves we don't know or we haven't studied it. This, is obvious logic to anyone.

I remembered you posted a thread about this a while ago, none of the good points done there appear to have gotten across to you at all.

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You said science doesn't change, but left implied that there's something wrong with that. I merely pointed out that only the knowledge is supposed to change and not the method.

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I meant a lot of people in the Scientific community seem to think once a theory is in place, that is it it can never change or people would possibly ignore things right in front of them to keep things the same. Not everyone, but from my experience with "science" people I don't imagine them all being open-minded at all..

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The point is, there "could be" another unknown force, however, as of now we haven't observed or detected an interaction outside of the 4 fundamental forces. Until we do, there's no reason to assume the existence of a new force.

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That was my only point. I didn't assume, I just understand the universe to be infinite and continuously expanding so another force existing makes sense. I have no proof, and I'm not assuming it is for sure just probable.

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

I meant a lot of people in the Scientific community seem to think once a theory is in place, that is it it can never change or people would possibly ignore things right in front of them to keep things the same. Not everyone, but from my experience with "science" people I don't imagine them all being open-minded at all..

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But inertia to new ideas is inherent to human nature, not to science. :P

And here comes another Carl Sagan quote, I can't resist:

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In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

But inertia to new ideas is inherent to human nature, not to science. :P

And here comes another Carl Sagan quote, I can't resist:

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Nice quote, organized religion usually doesn't change without a big mess of violence.

On the other hand the the real faithful, can change their mind about things.

DeathCell
I may be wrong, but you are just talking random things

jatoo
You´re right

__________________________________________

And now. Before any more posting happens, superpeople, who believe in astral stuff, can answer this:

1. Why dont you prove it?
2. How can you see while "astral projecting", when vision only exists in our brain (our eyes convert the waves, that collide from surfaces, to a "vision", to help us understant, what is around us, just an evolutional trick)
3. Astral Projection or whatever is known to be dreaming, and is obviosly dreaming, and it is dreaming, and I have tried it, and knew I was dreaming so why would it be something else, when it´s not possible to see if it would not be (2.)
4. Why don´t you answer? (optional, if you did, then do not answer to this)
5. Why are you trying to ignore these questions (if you are not, then this is optional too)

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Originally Posted by Ghost94

So I kinda did a bit too offensive topic earlier today, and now I decided to do a more calm one. One of the mods actually told me to do this, so it is weird if this gets locked... But anyway:

So I believe in god. I am a lutherin, and I think, that our ways are quite right. But god is the only "higher" thing, that I belive in. Now, after reading quite a lot of these threads here, I just need the urge to talk about these things. Because for me, it all seems so obvious, that there are no "higher" things. And it seems so obvious, that the things, that are being talked right here, have a scientifical purpose. Like the "magical rocks". It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain (brain = mind). But that the actual effect comes from the placebo effect. It basically means, that when the brain (subconscious) thinks something, it acts like it. So if you´d think, that you have cought the fever, you will provoke a fever (this is actually true). The placebo effect has been widely used in medical science too, for about half of the effect of any drug comes from the placebo effect. So the rock only makes the brain think, that the rock has an effect, and the brain acts like it. For example, if you have a rock, that makes you sleep better, then your brain may, just for this effect, be more alert to melatonin.

And basically, just about all of these "magical" things can be explained with the placebo effect or another simple fact.


And here is the core of this article: When just about all of the stuff here can be explained by science, then why would it not be only, simple science, and nothing "higher"?
Why do you believe, that it is not just science?

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there is no such thing as 'magic', in the sense or the way you are using 'magic'

there are no such things as magical rocks. but no one is running around saying that this is a magical rock. the belief has nothing to do with 'magic', but energy

the belief is that certain objects have a particular energy about them that is beneficial to the human being in some way, be it beneficial to the material OR other energy bodies.

take for example: food

obviously there are foods that are good for you, and foods that are not so good for you.

now extend the idea of good and bad food for the body, to good and bad food for the astral body. or energy body, or etheric body, or mental body - take your pick.

the belief is we have many bodies, not one. one of our most important bodies is the energy body. without it, we die. this energy body is linked to all of our vital organs. this is not physical energy as we know it. science can not see it, or measure it. we can only see the end result of how it effected our material body, thus, it looks like a placebo effect. the chakra system is a system in both our energy and material body, effectively uniting the two.

so let's go back to those magical rocks. everything is energy. everything is energy resonating. the idea that things are truly solid is an illusion. the higher the frequency something resonates at - the higher up in the chart of reality it is. heaven, or your idea of heaven is resonating at a higher frequency than our physical earth. just like the bible says, heaven is here on earth but we can not see it. we can not see it because our eyes are only capturing the parts of reality resonating at a much lower vibration/frequency, what ever.

energy workers then look for items that help the energy body, or mental body, or astral body and so on. this is the body you are running around in when you dream. and the body most of us will be running around in when we die. Helping this body, in turn helps our material body. Do they turn to items sometimes, like rocks? Yes. its a complicated story. but crystals are considered to be some of the most purest substances on earth that allow higher vibrations of energy to channel through them. Some of these healing rocks radiate energy, that is yours to freely take if you choose to. Whose energy do you think it is were talking about here? Energy workers know. Other rocks do the opposite, they are like sponges, they take in lower negative energies from your own bodies. Mud baths aren't just good for the skin, its believed to be taking a load off your energy body as well. The earth herself is also believed to absorb bad energy, if you are first willing to let go.

are these 'magical rocks' a science? yes. is it a 'higher thing?'. yes. old fashioned religions pit science against heaven, and say "this is a scientific thing" and this is a "heavenly thing". but in this belief, thats nonsense. everything is explainable, just CURRENTLY not by OUR science. and what is 'heavenly' or 'higher' is something that helps align yourself in some way to all that heaven is. its completely dependent on where you are in reality and whether or not it helps you.

here is an example of energy 'magic' healing. slow down. sit some where nice and quiet. take several, long and deep breaths. feel good? other people call it prana. it is the energy of God all around us, though we are ignorant to it, our physical body is always 'breathing' this energy. theres no point in asking a scientist to prove this energy is here. this is pure spiritual energy. and it is first absorbed by your other bodies then experienced in the material.

I'm not asking you to believe in all of this stuff, but if you believe in a soul you might want to look into it. Its very beneficial to understand higher and lower vibrations of energy and how it effects you, and your relationship to God.

What I am really trying to get at is, magic is a false understanding behind energy work. Energy healers treat what they do as a science. It is such a science to them, its down to the books. Look at the chakra system. They have it mapped out and relate the system to your organs, to your nervous system, to your digestive system. That they have channels that work like veins. What the chakras are prone to. What activates them. What blocks up their channels. How food effects them. How sleep effects them.

And someone might recommend, sleep with this stone on your forehead or under your pillow and so on. And you can say "silly magic". But ask them. Their reason isn't magic. Their reason would be along the lines of the energy of the stone resonates with the energy of the brow chakra.

In their eyes, it is both science and spiritual at the same time. No separation of heaven and earth.

so before you knock off 'magical' rocks as silly, ask yourself, do you believe everything is energy resonating?

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Originally Posted by juroara

What I am really trying to get at is, magic is a false understanding behind energy work. Energy healers treat what they do as a science. It is such a science to them, its down to the books.

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Just because they make up a bunch of words and concepts doesn't mean they use the scientific method in any way.

Their methods lack empiricism, rationalism and skepticism, the three are essential to science and critical thinking.

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And someone might recommend, sleep with this stone on your forehead or under your pillow and so on. And you can say "silly magic". But ask them. Their reason isn't magic. Their reason would be along the lines of the energy of the stone resonates with the energy of the brow chakra.

In their eyes, it is both science and spiritual at the same time. No separation of heaven and earth.

so before you knock off 'magical' rocks as silly, ask yourself, do you believe everything is energy resonating?

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Energy and chakras are made up concepts, they explain nothing, it's not science.

Pretending for a second the magic stones actually have some sort of effect on the body, using just our imagination we could get a completely different but just as good explanation(if you can call it that) for what had happened.

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Originally Posted by Ghost94

DeathCell
I may be wrong, but you are just talking random things

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Way to make a pointless post and not explain anything.
Random things!!!

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Their methods lack empiricism, rationalism and skepticism, the three are essential to science and critical thinking.

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Incorrect, they have all these parts in their, the only thing they lack is a worldwide understanding. Not everything is so simple and in a physical plane. Some things are hard to see, gotta read between the lines if you will. Not everything is reproducible over and over again to satisfy your insatiable lust for proof. Nor will science welcome with open arms thoughts that are not widely accepted by them.

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Energy and chakras are made up concepts, they explain nothing, it's not science.

Pretending for a second the magic stones actually have some sort of effect on the body, using just our imagination we could get a completely different but just as good explanation(if you can call it that) for what had happened.

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Science is not the only route to understanding. That is what you miss.

Energy and Chakras are real. Whether you understand or consciously have any control over yours is up for debate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Incorrect, they have all these parts in their, the only thing they lack is a worldwide understanding. Not everything is so simple and in a physical plane. Some things are hard to see, gotta read between the lines if you will. Not everything is reproducible over and over again to satisfy your insatiable lust for proof. Nor will science welcome with open arms thoughts that are not widely accepted by them.

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Look up the definitions of empiricism, rationalism, skepticism.

- They lack empiricism because they don't rely on empiric evidence;
- They lack rationalism because they rely on fallacious reasonings;
- They lack skepticism because they don't question their conclusions (which were achieved through flawed logic in the first place).

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Science is not the only route to understanding. That is what you miss.

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Yea, I'm not "enlightened" so I don't understand, right? :roll:

Backup the claim or it means nothing. Please point out which method other than the scientific method can be used to acquire new knowledge and technology.

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Energy and Chakras are real. Whether you understand or consciously have any control over yours is up for debate.

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There's no such thing as chakras and energy, the truth is in space there are cloaked high-tech alien satellites remotely connected to a part of everyone's brain. Whether you consciously have any control over yours is up for debate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Look up the definitions of empiricism, rationalism, skepticism.

- They lack empiricism because they don't rely on empiric evidence;
- They lack rationalism because they rely on fallacious reasonings;
- They lack skepticism because they don't question their conclusions (which were achieved through flawed logic in the first place).

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In philosophy, empiricism is a theory of knowledge which asserts that knowledge arises from experience

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Their knowledge arises from experience, I'm not talking about dogma in bibles etc.

Quote:

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rationalism is "any view appealing to reason as a source of knowledge or justification"

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Personal experiences appeal to my reason, it would be a justification.

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* (a) an inquiry,
* (b) a method of obtaining knowledge through systematic doubt and continual testing,
* (c) the arbitrariness, relativity, or subjectivity of moral values,
* (d) the limitations of knowledge,
* (e) a method of intellectual caution and suspended judgment.

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Yea, I'm not "enlightened" so I don't understand, right?

Backup the claim or it means nothing. Please point out which method other than the scientific method can be used to acquire new knowledge and technology.

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I didn't say that, you don't understand cause you haven't experienced it. Whether your enlightened or not is inconsequential to me.

I just understand I can figure things out without the aid of a science book, I can go out into the world and observe for myself without assistance from an "expert". I can watch the seasons turn, etc...

I could invent something without any background in science, I could figure something out without the aid of science. I understand that people are amazing and can discover amazing things, invent amazing things, do amazing things without the help of science. What they discover, invent may eventually be added to lists of scientific discoveries, without the help of previous science.

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There's no such thing as chakras and energy, the truth is in space there are cloaked high-tech alien satellites remotely connected to a part of everyone's brain. Whether you consciously have any control over yours is up for debate.

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Interesting thought, you can believe it if you want. I will instead choose to understand chakras and the subtle energies of the body.

The Open Minded
Principle:
Take facts away, center in belief. Thus they create new "facts".
Main Weapons:
Ignoring rationality, thus ignoring argumets of the other "camp"
Making "clever looking" posts. Easy, when you can take things out of thin air.
Secondary Weapons:
Insults
Ignoring questions
Escaping from the subject
Random posting

Rational People
Principle:
Believe in facts
Weapons:
Splitting the offending post, then responding accurately to every word
Base their arguments with real facts


My conclusion: Rational people are 100&#37; right, the open minded are 10% right.


EDIT:
And I know, that my english ain&#180;t perfect, so stop complaining

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

You believe in God but doubt the ability for anything magical in the world...

Huh?

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holy crap, not to be off topic or anything but OP just got seriously owned.
on the subject, You just seem to be one of the "see it to believe it" kind of people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghost94

The Open Minded
Principle:
Take facts away, center in belief. Thus they create new "facts".
Main Weapons:
Ignoring rationality, thus ignoring argumets of the other "camp"
Making "clever looking" posts. Easy, when you can take things out of thin air.
Secondary Weapons:
Insults
Ignoring questions
Escaping from the subject
Random posting

Rational People
Principle:
Believe in facts
Weapons:
Splitting the offending post, then responding accurately to every word
Base their arguments with real facts


My conclusion: Rational people are 100&#37; right, the open minded are 10% right.


EDIT:
And I know, that my english ain&#180;t perfect, so stop complaining

---

Lets take two groups of people, make up our own definitions and call it fact.

That's the group you belong to.

I classify you as

Rationally Irrational

Here are a list of symptoms

You post under the name Ghost
Claim to be the official person to change the meanings of open minded to fit your patterns.
Ignorant

My conclusion, you are -100% correct and what you say is pointless.

Ghost you believe in god and don't believe in the possibility of anything else "weird" in the world, its' kind of silly backing up one of the hardest to prove theories and brushing everything else people say as insane nonsense.

Pick and choose what works for you that isn't proven and then disrespect anyone who has a view on Psychic abilities etc.. when you believe in a God you can't prove..

Hypocrite? Much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeathCell

Lets take two groups of people, make up our own definitions and call it fact.

That's the group you belong to.

I classify you as

Rationally Irrational

Here are a list of symptoms

You post under the name Ghost
Claim to be the official person to change the meanings of open minded to fit your patterns.
Ignorant

My conclusion, you are -100% correct and what you say is pointless.

Ghost you believe in god and don't believe in the possibility of anything else "weird" in the world, its' kind of silly backing up one of the hardest to prove theories and brushing everything else people say as insane nonsense.

Pick and choose what works for you that isn't proven and then disrespect anyone who has a view on Psychic abilities etc.. when you believe in a God you can't prove..

Hypocrite? Much?

---

Well, whatever you say. But I´m right :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghost94

So I kinda did a bit too offensive topic earlier today, and now I decided to do a more calm one. One of the mods actually told me to do this, so it is weird if this gets locked... But anyway:

So I believe in god. I am a lutherin, and I think, that our ways are quite right. But god is the only "higher" thing, that I belive in. Now, after reading quite a lot of these threads here, I just need the urge to talk about these things. Because for me, it all seems so obvious, that there are no "higher" things. And it seems so obvious, that the things, that are being talked right here, have a scientifical purpose. Like the "magical rocks". It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain (brain = mind). But that the actual effect comes from the placebo effect. It basically means, that when the brain (subconscious) thinks something, it acts like it. So if you&#180;d think, that you have cought the fever, you will provoke a fever (this is actually true). The placebo effect has been widely used in medical science too, for about half of the effect of any drug comes from the placebo effect. So the rock only makes the brain think, that the rock has an effect, and the brain acts like it. For example, if you have a rock, that makes you sleep better, then your brain may, just for this effect, be more alert to melatonin.

And basically, just about all of these "magical" things can be explained with the placebo effect or another simple fact.


And here is the core of this article: When just about all of the stuff here can be explained by science, then why would it not be only, simple science, and nothing "higher"?
Why do you believe, that it is not just science?

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I've read some of the posts on this topic and it is an interesting subject. I have a question for the person who started this post. How can you believe in God and nothing else supernatural or "higher?" You say you are a Lutheran, so I assume you believe the Bible which is full of various supernatural beings other than God, such as Angels, demons, spirits, magic and sorcery abounds from Genesis to Revelation. Also do you believe you have a soul, will go to heaven or hell? If not I don't believe your faith is based on the Bible.
Note: This is not an attack on anyones belief or lack of belief in whatever God they choose or not choose, it is just very strange for me to read from someone who says they believe in God, but nothing else "higher".

As for the science debate, I agree with those who say science has not proved everything, or not found the answers to everything including the amount of forces in the universe. I have had experiences many on this messageboard would say are impossible but they happened, I can't prove it too you, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen for you can't prove they didn't either. I have had things move in my house without anybody touching them, had precognitive dreams, and other things. Science is constantly being amended and changed. Poltergiest investigators such as William Roll have documented proof of the supernatural, in one investigation on Unsolved Mysteries William Roll recorded bangs, knocks, and voices in a sealed hull of a ship. Nobody was there, it was sealed off, and this isn't some crack pot either but a parapsycholgist from Duke University. He doesn't beleive they are ghosts but PK from the mind, something modern science can't explain.

Now this is my and ONLY my opinion, do not think it is the truth. I am not recommending this way of viewing things to anyone.

But here is my point of view:
Human wrote the bible, not god, not jesus but human. You know what I mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghost94

Now this is my and ONLY my opinion, do not think it is the truth. I am not recommending this way of viewing things to anyone.

But here is my point of view:
Human wrote the bible, not god, not jesus but human. You know what I mean.

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That means you`re not a Lutheran. I know it`s the wrong place to discuss this, but what God do you believe in?

Stop to ask a few people and you'll find that not as many people as you expect adhere completely to what their religion claims.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Licity

Stop to ask a few people and you'll find that not as many people as you expect adhere completely to what their religion claims.

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What about doesn`t hold that religion at all, which I suspect.