LDers VS OBEers

Assuming OBE's are just dreams, and that and that OBEers and LDers experience the same thing and operate in the same realm, what do you think are the pros and cons of each approach?

Both methods have been extensively researched by practitioners, and merging the knowledge from both schools could prove very informative. OBE research has probably gone on longer than LD research, simply because the term lucid dream only came into existance in the early 19ht century. I suspect OBE lore has better WILDing techniques than most LD oriented ones.


One on the main differences in the approaches is that OBEers think what they are experiencing is real. LDers obviously know it's not.

I would think that knowing it's only a dream would allow you more freedom to act, and more possiblilities to choose from. But perhaps thinking it's real would lend you more dedication to practicing. You'd certainly take it more seriously. And thinking it's an OBE would give the whole experience a more magical quality, while LDing is just some humdrum peculiarity of the mind that anyone can do. That could certainly inspire you more.

And even if thinking it's an OBE does restrict your options a little, I think it would provide some stability to your dream realm that regular LDers lack. The astral realm comes with all kinds of rules and things that are supposed to be there, as well as certain predefined interactions which can be expected. This creates better defined archetypes compared to the vast randomness of possibilities in LDs, which in my opinion makes for greater reliability in any feats you attempt.

There has got to be a ton of comparable techniques between OBEs and LDs, whicn ones are better. I'd like to start comparing them in this thread, but it's too late to start that tonight.

But... neh... enh...

I thought that when you OBE'd, you AP'd, and you went to the Astral Planes, which are described in detail, consistent, and very much different than the unstable, ever-changing dream world? Either that, or you EPd (etheric), and were within the physical realm as a spirit (decidedly not what you are describing)?

How can you OBE without it either being an instance of APing or EPing?

What is this mysterious other kind of OBE that results in you ending up in a world exactly like the dream-world?

Sounds like a dream that someone wanted to make seem more special
(It was an OBE! I swear! So much cooler than an LD!)...

...and sounds just like a WILD. :D

The techniques are so similar for the two, one has to wonder... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

One on the main differences in the approaches is that OBEers think what they are experiencing is real. LDers obviously know it's not.

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Please don't put words in people's mouths. I certainly don't think so and know other OBEers who do not.

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The astral realm comes with all kinds of rules and things that are supposed to be there, as well as certain predefined interactions which can be expected. This creates better defined archetypes

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So basically you say that strict believes create strict scenarios and strict rules for dream control. Imho it's limiting. Probably it can make dream control fail less, but then it's going to fail more if you try to go beyond self-imposed limits. You also have no real freedom to do whatever you desire or can hope to find out objective information about dreams. For that your mind must be clear and not prejudiced, otherwise these prejudices will be mistaken for objective discoveries.

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Originally Posted by WakataDreamer

Sounds like a dream that someone wanted to make seem more special
(It was an OBE! I swear! So much cooler than an LD!)...

...and sounds just like a WILD. :D

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Well, I guess some people can make up for low self-esteem this way :D

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Originally Posted by Arutad

Please don't put words in people's mouths. I certainly don't think so and know other OBEers who do not.

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Yes I realize that, but for the purpose of this discussion I'm assuming they are the same. Or at least similar enough that they warrant a side by side comparison.

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Originally Posted by Arutad

So basically you say that strict believes create strict scenarios and strict rules for dream control. Imho it's limiting. Probably it can make dream control fail less, but then it's going to fail more if you try to go beyond self-imposed limits. You also have no real freedom to do whatever you desire or can hope to find out objective information about dreams. For that your mind must be clear and not prejudiced, otherwise these prejudices will be mistaken for objective discoveries.

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Exactly! But not belief, archetypes. Belief can help pick which archetypes are in play, even influence the outcomes, but it's the archetype that ultimately determines what possibilities are available to the dreamer.

Calling on God to protect you in a lucid dream is going to work more often than calling on Arnold Schwarzenegger, because the archetype of god is stable and reasonably well defined (few variations) no matter what your beliefs on the matter.

My first WILD (2 weeks ago) was an OBE so thats what I believe they are. I just had another one this morning where about 15 minutes in I felt my arms and legs start to rise. I still have lots of trouble separating from my body though and am pulled back to my physical sight quite often.

I've never had a WILD cause I alway get the energy uplifting feeling and then try and separate; if i do nothing my mind just stays blank and I go unconscious pretty fast--that is After I'm already feeling the vibrations etc.

Thinking they that OBE are real or however you put it has lead me to read a lot of books with energy techniques and centers etc which ultimately lead to my successful OBE/WILDs. so i guess there you have it.

You seem very convinced that OBE's are not 'real'. Can't you at least accept the possibility?--I don't understand...

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Originally Posted by wet_roof113

You seem very convinced that OBE's are not 'real'. Can't you at least accept the possibility?--I don't understand...

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You seem very convinced that OBEs are real? Can't you at least accept that they could be (probably are) just dreams of leaving the body? (after all if you dream of winning the lottery, you dont wake up thinking you're wealthy... so why should dreaming about leaving the body make you wake up and assume you really left your body?)

I mean, nobody ever explains this:

If you were to dream/wild of having an OBE, how exactly would the experience differ from having a genuine OBE? I don't understand that?

My lucid dreams, especially WILDs are as vivid and convincing as any waking experience. When I WILD it feels completely as if i get out of bed and into my room, everything is identical. I've even had them where i look back and see my body. Do i think i'm really leaving my body? Well, no, as I just fell into a dream consciously. Of course the experience is going to seem real.

Just a question, do reality tests still behave the same in these OBEs of yours?

I'm open to the possibility that OBEs could be real, but i see no reason to assume that a convincing WILD of leaving the body shouldn't be the first and most likely answer. Especially when no one seems to explain how the two experiences would differ.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

Assuming OBE's are just dreams, and that and that OBEers and LDers experience the same thing and operate in the same realm, what do you think are the pros and cons of each approach?

Both methods have been extensively researched by practitioners, and merging the knowledge from both schools could prove very informative. OBE research has probably gone on longer than LD research, simply because the term lucid dream only came into existance in the early 19ht century. I suspect OBE lore has better WILDing techniques than most LD oriented ones.


One on the main differences in the approaches is that OBEers think what they are experiencing is real. LDers obviously know it's not.

I would think that knowing it's only a dream would allow you more freedom to act, and more possiblilities to choose from. But perhaps thinking it's real would lend you more dedication to practicing. You'd certainly take it more seriously. And thinking it's an OBE would give the whole experience a more magical quality, while LDing is just some humdrum peculiarity of the mind that anyone can do. That could certainly inspire you more.

And even if thinking it's an OBE does restrict your options a little, I think it would provide some stability to your dream realm that regular LDers lack. The astral realm comes with all kinds of rules and things that are supposed to be there, as well as certain predefined interactions which can be expected. This creates better defined archetypes compared to the vast randomness of possibilities in LDs, which in my opinion makes for greater reliability in any feats you attempt.

There has got to be a ton of comparable techniques between OBEs and LDs, whicn ones are better. I'd like to start comparing them in this thread, but it's too late to start that tonight.

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This reminds me very much of http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=46571

Cusp, you think the methods of entering a WILD/OBE are enough to trigger schemata?

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Originally Posted by wet_roof113

You seem very convinced that OBE's are not 'real'. Can't you at least accept the possibility?--I don't understand...

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I've felt myself leaving my body on plenty of occasions, but most often I'll feel a dream body at the same time as my real one. Like you said, it's hard to separate the two, especially the head and torso. I've had good success with rolling out of my body.

But everything after that isn't any different from a normal dream, at least from what I can tell.

From paying attention how my HI turns into a dream, I've noticed that the dream forms around the HI you are seeing, or generally speaking the last thing you are aware of. It stops being HI and becomes a full dream the moment you have a dream body.

When I feel myself leaving my body, it seems I skip the HI stage, and my theory is you find yourself in your bed or house because that was the last thing you were focused on, being in bed.

I'm willing to consider that I'm wrong on this, but that would mean I'm a pretty accomplished OBEer, in which case I still say it's exactly like a dream.

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Originally Posted by Licity

This reminds me very much of http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=46571

Cusp, you think the methods of entering a WILD/OBE are enough to trigger schemata?

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There's always some sort of schemata in play weather you're dreaming or awake. An exception might be certain meditative states where you can put yourself beyond the limitations of any schemata.

In dreams, schemata are more like places you can visit, or the roads you travel on.

Take this example schema, picture each connection as a different path you can choose to take. Starting with the schema "media" look at all the places you can end up.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5SxAMF8ikK...c+Schemata.jpg

I've tried every "AP" method, all I got was a vivid lucid dream so I wonder how I would do it if said "AP" was real.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

Yes I realize that, but for the purpose of this discussion I'm assuming they are the same. Or at least similar enough that they warrant a side by side comparison.

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I too think that they're the same, but you wrote that all OBEers believe that OBEs are real, that's what I was objecting to.

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Exactly! But not belief, archetypes. Belief can help pick which archetypes are in play, even influence the outcomes, but it's the archetype that ultimately determines what possibilities are available to the dreamer.

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Why get stuck in them, I can't see any normal reason for that. In a dream you can shatter an archetype. You can't walk through doors in reality, but in dreams you can, if you so desire. Knowing that everything is unreal weakens the power of archetypes. I can't see why you'd want to limit yourself again, it's a unique state with unique possibilities. You don't have to blindly accept everything that you normally know to be unchangeable and true, you can go against the flow of the collective unconscious.

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Originally Posted by wet_roof113

You seem very convinced that OBE's are not 'real'. Can't you at least accept the possibility?--I don't understand...

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Instead of talking, it's easy to check whether your OBEs were real. :) Open a book randomly and leave it open near your bed, then while you're "out of body", read the page. Once you're awake you can check whether you read it correctly...

I think that after that you won't be wondering why people don't believe that OBEs are real. Or you can prove us all wrong, and yours will be real! C'mon, try it out for yourself or for others. Otherwise nobody will take your believes seriously, it's just talk. Other people actually checked, and that's what we (or at least I) founded our own convictions on.

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Originally Posted by Arutad

Instead of talking, it's easy to check whether your OBEs were real. :) Open a book randomly and leave it open near your bed, then while you're "out of body", read the page. Once you're awake you can check whether you read it correctly...

I think that after that you won't be wondering why people don't believe that OBEs are real. Or you can prove us all wrong, and yours will be real! C'mon, try it out for yourself or for others. Otherwise nobody will take your believes seriously, it's just talk. Other people actually checked, and that's what we (or at least I) founded our own convictions on.

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Nice to see that sweeping statements are still alive and well on DVs.

So.. datura person.. on the basis of your own single instance of having a lucid in which you perceived your own personal surroundings, but in which you couldn't read properly or just read gibberish or whatever, you now feel empowered enough to make such bold sweeping statements as you have?

Talk is cheap..

IMO You will need a lot more experience than you have (I'm talking decades) to be able to have a true OBE, i.e. perceive your real-life surroundings while asleep and dreaming. Yes, I did say dreaming, but don't draw any conclusions from that.

Dream scenes in which you see "your sleeping body" are extremely common, and bring forth many "I had an OBE" comments, but unless you can verify that what you perceive as "your sleeping body" really is your sleeping body, you're most likely to be tricked by the scenario, which is what seems to usually happen, judging from the comments on this site.

To me it's obvious that you've never had an OBE. If you had, you wouldn't be up there on the soapbox talking tat. You just had a bog-standard LD that took place in "your personal surroundings", in which you had some difficulty reading. Very common.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Arutad

Instead of talking, it's easy to check whether your OBEs were real. :) Open a book randomly and leave it open near your bed, then while you're "out of body", read the page. Once you're awake you can check whether you read it correctly...

I think that after that you won't be wondering why people don't believe that OBEs are real. Or you can prove us all wrong, and yours will be real! C'mon, try it out for yourself or for others. Otherwise nobody will take your believes seriously, it's just talk. Other people actually checked, and that's what we (or at least I) founded our own convictions on.

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She's right actually. most people I think project into at least a close-too real-time reality. A better thing to do is if you have a room in your house you don't normally use or a closet etc. have someone put an object there in a specific location, and then while your out of body go check and see what it is. I've heard of people getting very close results if not the exact thing correct.

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Originally Posted by wet_roof113

She's right actually.

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No, "she's" not. "She" couldn't be more wrong.. but maybe I'm confusing what you may actually mean.

If you mean that she's right about "OBEs" taking place in a close-to-real-time scenario, then again I say that "she" is wrong. That's not the accepted definition of the term "OBE". That would be a standard LD, mistaken for an OBE.

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Originally Posted by wet_roof113

.. most people I think project into at least a close-too real-time reality. A better thing to do is if you have a room in your house you don't normally use or a closet etc. have someone put an object there in a specific location, and then while your out of body go check and see what it is. I've heard of people getting very close results if not the exact thing correct.

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Naaaaaaaaaaaaah. Much better to scare the shit out of domestic animals in your vicinity, and then see them run away in fear from you when you eventually wake up and walk around. Keeps the cats off the garden.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

I

When I feel myself leaving my body, it seems I skip the HI stage, and my theory is you find yourself in your bed or house because that was the last thing you were focused on, being in bed.

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thats interesting cause my "WILD's" or AP's whatever you want to call it are quite different.

for most of them:

First I start feeling the rise of my arms and legs and so I assume I am in my astral body and open my eyes. what happens then is that I then appear to be looking through my physical eyes and be in my physical body. a difference though is that my vision is kinda impaired like tunnel vission. Basically in this state with my physical eyes open. I can move my astral arms through the covers and see them (they are kind of translucent). Then I begin the process of trying to roll fully out of my body. Usually when I get out full I have no vision but sometimes I can.

For my first four AP's which I had these last two weeks a lot of times as i try and seperate I will find myself back inside my physical body (but still IN my astral body) and I try the separation over again.

When I close my eyes in this weird state all i get is total darkness, and normally I never ever experience HI to begin with.

Also for these 4 successful attempts I've had, time of day and the light in the sky appears generally correct. The spatial layout is all the same as-well. frequently though I hear voices see family members get up etcetera who are not really there.


I've only ever hard dream induced LD's and my thinking etc in these seem to be a lot more unclear as opposed to these wake initiated things. I'm gonna keep up my attempts and maybe one of these times I'll resist the temptation to exit my body and see if I can go into a dream like you seem to do...

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Originally Posted by Oneiro

Nice to see that sweeping statements are still alive and well on DVs.

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Yep, still alive, I can see the proof right in front of my own eyes, although I don't agree that it's so nice. And I can't decide whether you're so angry that you make no sense with your statements, or so drunk (high?). I mean, starting from insulting me with drug use, and with "knowing" how many years of experience I have, ending with implying that I'm not a she. You'd make a lousy clairvoyant. Judging by how you presented yourself, I'm afraid to even imagine what an OBEer you are.

People like you always react bad to posts that talk about proof and get anxious and angry, as you know that you yourself couldn't prove anything for the life of you. Well thanx for the circus I guess, although it was a dubious pleasure.

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Originally Posted by wet_roof113

A better thing to do is if you have a room in your house you don't normally use or a closet etc. have someone put an object there in a specific location, and then while your out of body go check and see what it is. I've heard of people getting very close results if not the exact thing correct.

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Such complex procedures aren't necessary, don't you think? Usually it's enough to just look around attentively to see that you're not in your real room, although in such an alternative state you may fail to notice discrepancies inside of the dream. My point is that asking somebody to hide something in your closet is an overkill, it's necessary only if you can say for sure that you can't find a single discrepancy and need more dire methods to check.

Maybe I can offer some insight. I can tell you I have done both an OBE and an LD and they feel different from each other. Sometimes my OBE's have switched into LD's or dreams too. I find an LD experience much more enjoyable but being they are both lucid, they can both be fun to do. I just wish I had more control over it all.

The most striking difference with an OBE is that you're aware of your body and the sense that your spirit is leaving the body. You might be able to see yourself sleeping. And you will tend to want to drift further away, I tend to get a feeling something is pulling me away - like to another plane. I don't want to really get into the argument of whether any of that is real, but it does feel real. From my own experience, the sense of self is stronger, I'm in a first person view. I've never seen anyone else when I have had an OBE, I've always been alone. The OBE tends to be black and white and not color like most of my dreams and lucids, but retains a lot of detail. It is always very vivid and full of detail, just not color. An OBE is the only place I have ever seen my shadow while asleep. I have never had a regular dream or an LD that I can recall noticing my shadow. Not sure if that is relevant or not but just throwing it out there.

For my LD's I have just as much if not more freedom of movement, which is to say I always fly/float and explore. I know I am dreaming, and it varies as other dreams do as to how vivid it is and what perspective I am in. Sometimes I see myself at a distance and sometimes I am in first person. I've had some amazingly vivid LDs, and they are always color, all my dreams are except for OBEs. My LD's vary some have DC's some don't. My dream self believes in the reality of astral plane/OBEs much more than I do. I won't outright deny it I am just not sure but I am pretty skeptical. I guess it comes down to just not having enough to base any judgement on. But even though I doubt them, when I'm having an OBE I tend to believe.

Nah.

I've had what some might readily call an "out of body experience". Usually during a WILD or so.

Yes it "felt" like I've left my body. But I was aware enough to understand that this didn't neccesarily mean I was and that my mind was trying to fill in the blanks.

Aside from the entry techniques my MILDS/WILDS/DILDS generally end up feeling very similar - as in clearly just dreams.

I have to say, its special enough that we can consciously (and lucidly) wander around in worlds created in out own heads. I mean, its just mind blowingly amazing.

Why some feel the need to try and turn this into Astral Travelling and supernatural I have no Idea.