Law of Expectation

There is only one law you should care about in the dream, the one that makes dream control possible: The Law Of Expectation.
In it's simplest form, The Law of Expectation says that in a dream, the dreamer's expectation becomes their reality. When I first tried to fly in a lucid dream, I thought it'd be difficult. It was difficult. Then I changed my mindset to "this is a dream, flying is easy." I then flew quite easily! Although I've not been able to fly that well, the Law of Expectation holds. I expected flying to be hard, so my subconscious responded in kind, making it very hard to fly.
The reason The Law Of Expectation works is the way the dream is built. If you were to look around you right now, and then got asked the question "Were you looking at the real world?", you'd probably answer yes. But you'd be wrong. What you're actually looking at is an amazingly complex construct of your mind designed to interpret the information coming through your senses. Your dreams are similar constructs, except that they're not connected to your senses. They're fluid and changing. All your perceptions are neatly packed up in these psychological entities called schemas. The dream world is formed by associating schemas together. For example, the schemas for "black" and "square" can be associated to form the schema of "black square". The schema for "house" is associated with the schema for "door". But what controls these associations? Your expectations. You expect a house to have doors. You expect a black square to be colored black. Normally, the dream controls your expectations by controlling what you perceive. But when you're lucid, you control your expectations, breaking out of the preset path made by your dream. That is what allows you to control the dream.

Often I refuse to acknowledge when my dreams do not do what I want. Let's say I want a cold soda to appear. I not only expect it to appear, I know it will appear. Let's say instead a banana appears in my hand. I avoid thinking that a banana appeared instead. I expect that I have great control. I know a drink appeared (despite the banana). I congratulate myself on summoning the drink. I imagine taking a drink of what is in hand. It is a drink, It is not a banana. I do not even think about the banana. I know I am great at this and therefore successfully summoned a drink. Let's say the dream is being stubborn and I still seem to have a banana when I raise it to my lips. That is stupid and hardly worth accepting, clearly I successfully summoned a drink. I do not expect the banana to persist. Of course it is silly to even consider, so I ignore it and comment to myself mentally that the drink is so real I can feel the fizzy bubbles. I picture the bubbles. I swallow the liquid I not only expect, but know is in the glass I am holding. At this point I probably am holding a cold drink. This takes practice but after years it is so fast and fluid that I may have as well summoned the drink immediately. I wanted it seconds ago and am now drinking it. Summoning successful as I expected and knew it would be. What about the banana? Don't be silly, I never summoned a banana.

I've tried similar things as above trying to gain control, but find whenever I try to control a dream and force an expectation, it seems to do what it can to make up its own objective and follow that. If I resist, the dream may go along with me for a while, but it will work its way back to whatever objective it set. Sometimes it will also change objectives depending on how far I stray from its intended path. When it makes those changes they very seldom are favorable. It usually ends in frustration or going through some kind of never ending loop until I wake up. In note to making up checkpoints, I've seen the dream thwart those too if it is determined enough. I can read my alarm clock, read writing, turn on light switches, possibly even see my image in a mirror if that particular dream is bent on keeping me in line.

If I can, lately I've been just kind of going along with the dream's objective. if it shows me a plot, I try to follow along with it. if it sends me to another scene, i try to work out ways to get back to the original scene. The dream then throws all kinds of random events or places. Sometimes I can get back to the original plot, and sometimes not. Doing this I seldom may be aware I am dreaming, but I gain the feeling like I am really living in that setting the dream setup for however long it lasts, and I notice sometimes the more I go along with it, the more able I am to observe the setting, remember details, and make decisions, as well as gain self awareness, and sometimes even remember things from previous dreams related to the setting (if it is a recurring setting).

I'm kind of on the fence. In some ways I'd like to have more flying dreams and dream control, but in the same way, whatever is going on is interesting, letting the dream do what it wants and "living" in its set of physics and "reality". I've seen some really neat things and experienced some great stuff, just doing that. Things like flying, listening to music, visiting surreal buildings and cities, being different animals, seeing mythological creatures, traveling into space, seeing planets, and lately communicating with a figure who I used to be afraid of and be chased. it seemed the more I expected control, the less I got. I wanted to stop being chased. I demanded answers. But when I gave up and let the dream guide me, that was when I realized I could chose to carry on with the dream goal without being afraid. In doing so, the dream being finally spoke with me. His answer was random and genuine. Just throwing this out, my ongoing experience and challenge with dream control.

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In re: the banana dream:

Maybe if you get a banana instead of a cold soda, just go along with it, see what happens. Okay you got a banana. Try peeling it. What does it peel into? Maybe it will peel into a house? What is in that house? Try walking through some rooms, noting what the place looks like. The walls, the curtains? The view outside? maybe it is raining? Maybe it is outer space? See what you can do from there. Go along with it. Maybe you don't get the cold soda you're craving, but the experience might be worth it.

For whatever reasons looking up at the sky in a dream almost always seems to generate really vivid, strange and beautiful imagery worth looking at whenever given the chance.

It's funny coz I have had a couple of chances to have a go at the basic totm - put your hands in your pockets then, without expectation pull em out - what have you got?

Well the first time I tried I still had the keys I had in my hands before putting my hands in pockets ...then I tried again and again kept pulling out nothing:alien:

This morning itried it again and I was pulling out nothing until I jumped in with an expectation of something green...to be honest it happened so quickly that I thought of a bright green piece of fabric that I couldn't be sure if I had had expectation or not - so I didn't count it.

What it's showing me I think is that when I am not expecting anything at all,it seems I am at this point, expecting nothing...how to get around this:uhm:

Intersting :)

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Originally Posted by BugFolk

I've tried similar things as above trying to gain control, but find whenever I try to control a dream and force an expectation, it seems to do what it can to make up its own objective and follow that. If I resist, the dream may go along with me for a while, but it will work its way back to whatever objective it set. Sometimes it will also change objectives depending on how far I stray from its intended path. When it makes those changes they very seldom are favorable. It usually ends in frustration or going through some kind of never ending loop until I wake up. In note to making up checkpoints, I've seen the dream thwart those too if it is determined enough. I can read my alarm clock, read writing, turn on light switches, possibly even see my image in a mirror if that particular dream is bent on keeping me in line.

If I can, lately I've been just kind of going along with the dream's objective. if it shows me a plot, I try to follow along with it. if it sends me to another scene, i try to work out ways to get back to the original scene. The dream then throws all kinds of random events or places. Sometimes I can get back to the original plot, and sometimes not. Doing this I seldom may be aware I am dreaming, but I gain the feeling like I am really living in that setting the dream setup for however long it lasts, and I notice sometimes the more I go along with it, the more able I am to observe the setting, remember details, and make decisions, as well as gain self awareness, and sometimes even remember things from previous dreams related to the setting (if it is a recurring setting).

I'm kind of on the fence. In some ways I'd like to have more flying dreams and dream control, but in the same way, whatever is going on is interesting, letting the dream do what it wants and "living" in its set of physics and "reality". I've seen some really neat things and experienced some great stuff, just doing that. Things like flying, listening to music, visiting surreal buildings and cities, being different animals, seeing mythological creatures, traveling into space, seeing planets, and lately communicating with a figure who I used to be afraid of and be chased. it seemed the more I expected control, the less I got. I wanted to stop being chased. I demanded answers. But when I gave up and let the dream guide me, that was when I realized I could chose to carry on with the dream goal without being afraid. In doing so, the dream being finally spoke with me. His answer was random and genuine. Just throwing this out, my ongoing experience and challenge with dream control.

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In re: the banana dream:

Maybe if you get a banana instead of a cold soda, just go along with it, see what happens. Okay you got a banana. Try peeling it. What does it peel into? Maybe it will peel into a house? What is in that house? Try walking through some rooms, noting what the place looks like. The walls, the curtains? The view outside? maybe it is raining? Maybe it is outer space? See what you can do from there. Go along with it. Maybe you don't get the cold soda you're craving, but the experience might be worth it.

For whatever reasons looking up at the sky in a dream almost always seems to generate really vivid, strange and beautiful imagery worth looking at whenever given the chance.

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An interesting point. I have a couple types of dream experience. My level of control can be God like because I have done this so long and use methods as described in the banana example; I do think however, that allowing the dream to progress in a natural pattern makes some of the most exciting dreams. Dreams with 100% control are simply like virtual reality, while a dream that goes in unexpected directions may offer emotional exciting variations. It is clearly a balancing act. How much control is best at the time?

I think I prefer to watch my dreams play out and learn from them, because for me they are so beneficial and riddled with messages and learning experiences. I agree 100% with BugFolk however, I made a compromise and decided I will allow myself to practice control now and then and only one dream a night. I really feel that I can also learn a lot from doing that as well. I just really appreciate the dream life I already have. I will practice control on the fun stuff like the pockets. That sounds harmless and fun. I also realize I need to get more sleep. Tough when you need to get up at 4:30 am. Being Lucid all my life sure doesn't mean I am good at control. This will be a fun challenge for me and I value that as growth as well.

Oh please, this is a discussion I have been wanting to have for a while. Please do debate me.

I disagree that the law of expectation is the unique law to dream control or to the development of the dream events.

Some scenarios for the example of flight, Dreamlord:
1: You expect it to be hard so you fail (your situation)
2: You expect it to be hard but you succeed (I have done this)
3: You expect it to be easy but you fail (this has happened to me)
4: You expect it to be easy so you succeed (Law of expectations)

2 out of these scenarios go against the law of expectations, yet, I have experienced them. An example: Once I thought, if I just fell backwards, I would simply float. It made so much sense to me because I knew I was in a dream and that there was no ground in a dream. I was ready for feeling the gentle floating that was logical to ensue. Instead, I hit the hard floor causing a very unexpected pain.

Like Bugflok says, there are so many times where in dreams, even non-lucid dreams where expectations are even more in harmony with the dream, my expectations are so wrong. My beliefs which the dream gave me are so very wrong. I am struggling against the objective of the dream and everywhere stairs at me in disbelief as I undergo my crazy ambitions. I wake up and realize how wrong I was. If expectation was so important, how could my dream's beliefs be wrong.

Lastly, Sivason's banana example is another curiosity. What did the banana have anything to do with anything. If you think of a drink, why would you get a banana? For example, once, I wave my hand magically towards two boys in an alley with the intention of making them fly/float. Instead, a car fell from the sky and crushed them. This was so unexpected. So random. Even the result was so far from my intention. I didn't want to harm these people. They were innocent kids playing with a ball.

Dreams are constructed by our mind, so once you are lucid and realize that not only your mind is you but also every sense is you, it follows that there is the potential for almost perfect control of the dream. Yet, I think expectation is not the only tool. Perhaps it is even a weak tool in comparison with the other elements at play which decide what happens in the dream. Perhaps, the realization that the dream is you in every way is in itself a stronger tool. What other things control the dream?

I don't find expectation always works,

I just woke from a Lucid dream, but was sort of using expectation before I became Lucid. I had to get to a copy of a book to prove something wasn't my fault I didn't have the book and proceeded to the room I believed it was in. I came to a heavy vaulted door and thought with expectation (not lucid yet) it will be open, it was just a bit ajar, but there was an angled wall behind it and it was to a hallway beside the needed room. I look next to it an there was another heavy armored door with digital control, I expected (not lucid yet) it will be unlocked and the door opened. I saw the table and thought the book will be on the table, it wasn't, so I thought then it will be in the locker (that resembled a safe/vault), it too was closed but I thought that's OK it will be unlocked too, I pulled on the digital control face and it came off, I put it back on and pulled again it came off along with an inner face, but there was another face inside that which was still locked as I pulled it off to (finding another) I said:
"This is a lucid dream" then I began to rub my hands and say "I will be stable in my lucid dream". Then I walked towards some couches and chairs containing 8 women, I looked at each one and decided they needed to be younger, but try as I might using Lucidly aversion and expectation to change them they remained steadfastly and stubbornly in their 40ish+ age group. I was only half heartedly stabilizing and woke up after like two tries to un-age them using expectation. So my expectation seemed to work better pre-Lucid then lucid.
(total Lucid time <30 seconds, Lucidity very high, Vividness/Realism fairly high, Clarity somewhat hazy)

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Oh please, this is a discussion I have been wanting to have for a while. Please do debate me.

I disagree that the law of expectation is the unique law to dream control or to the development of the dream events.

Some scenarios for the example of flight, dreamlord:
1: You expect it to be hard so you fail (your situation)
2: You expect it to be hard but you succeed (I have done this)
3: You expect it to be easy but you fail (this has happened to me)
4: You expect it to be easy so you succeed (Law of expectations)

2 out of these scenarios go against the law of expectations, yet, I have experienced them. An example: Once I thought, if I just fell backwards, I would simply float. It made so much sense to me because I knew I was in a dream and that there was no ground in a dream. I was ready for feeling the gentle floating that was logical to ensue. Instead, I hit the hard floor causing a very unexpected pain.

Like Bugflok says, there are so many times where in dreams, even non-lucid dreams where expectations are even more in harmony with the dream, my expectations are so wrong. My beliefs which the dream gave me are so very wrong. I am struggling against the objective of the dream and everywhere stairs at me in disbelief as I undergo my crazy ambitions. I wake up and realize how wrong I was. If expectation was so important, how could my dream's beliefs be wrong.

Lastly, Sivason's banana example is another curiosity. What did the banana have anything to do with anything. If you think of a drink, why would you get a banana? For example, once, I wave my hand magically towards two boys in an alley with the intention of making them fly/float. Instead, a car fell from the sky and crushed them. This was so unexpected. So random. Even the result was so far from my intention. I didn't want to harm these people. They were innocent kids playing with a ball.

Dreams are constructed by our mind, so once you are lucid and realize that not only your mind is you but also every sense is you, it follows that there is the potential for almost perfect control of the dream. Yet, I think expectation is not the only tool. Perhaps it is even a weak tool in comparison with the other elements at play which decide what happens in the dream. Perhaps, the realization that the dream is you in every way is in itself a stronger tool. What other things control the dream?

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The banana example, I think, can be explained as matter of an "uncontrolled" expectation. Where you begin to consciously expect a drink, it is possible that a chain of unconscious expectations result in the schema of a banana instead of a drink. The essential part, then, becomes controlling the expectation in the first place; all these Dream control techniques you see floating around the forum are the law of expectation applied with some extra "glitter" to control the expectation. For example, when you shout out into the dream "clarity," it works because you expected the dream to heed your request. For some, this way of applying expectation may give them more control, because the subconscious may form less associations on what is interpreted to be a command. For other's, this may not work exactly--if at all--due to a difference in the way the subconscious has been trained to associate. For similar reasons, magic may work for some, but not others. I speculate, then, that what each of these techniques do is package a large, complex set of schema's (the act of creating a city, say) and package them into a single schema so far outside of your experience it becomes highly unlikely the subconscious can create a successful association and wrest control from the dreamer.

Now, I realize, this theory of "spontaneous association" can be used to explain your examples; when you simply fell, the subconscious associated the act of "floating when falling back" as an impossible scenario, resulting it in replacing it with another schema, that of falling.You might also expect a task to be hard, but sometimes, just the expectation of it being possible causes the subconscious to wrest control and simply remove the "hard" part, resulting in you doing it.

My point is, the result of the law is as much a result of what expectations you hold as the ones the dream creates, the glue that holds it and its plot together. That is why it is sometimes so difficult to go against the "will of the dream," because the dream has already created a series of subconscious expectations it is using to maintain the existing dreamworld; I fear that my short introduction to the law of expectation may be too short. In order to counter the will of the dream, one needs up needing to use extra expectations to directly counter the ones created by the dream, something which unfortunately is quite difficult to perceive. As in sivason's example, where dd the banana come from? What strange subconscious expectation(s) associated a drink with a banana? But then he made it work. He used another expectation, a different one, using more abstract concepts (the banana never existed) that both the subconscious finds it difficult to create associations for and directly contradicts the subconscious previous influence (the banana exists). In the end, it was all expectation. Expectation is the reason all these techniques do what they do, the techniques only acting to counter specific subconscious influences.

Not all of those techniques work in every scenario, yes, and the reason I state expectation to be the foundation is that it's the dreamer's responsibility to use his own judgement to formulate a "plan of action" one that either uses or nullifies the effects of pre-existing subconscious associations and allows the dreamer to have total control over his "target expectation." Magic, for example, works in dreams where magic is already established, perhaps "Hogwarts;" it works because it incorporates the subconscious expectation of "magic works," therefore essentially nullifying it's effect on the dreamer's expectation. The law of expectation is an extraordinarily powerful tool, but one that is very difficult to use directly. But, should the dreamer discover a particular method to apply it while nullifying the dream's effects, it gives them unprecedented control.

Thank you, OcciptalRed, for helping me verbalize my ideas.

Okay, Dreamlord, you are convincing me.

I think it's maybe just that I don't like the word expectation, its first definition on google being "a strong belief that something will happen or be the case in the future" when faith isn't the absolute law in dreams. Like you say, it is both the conscious AND the subconscious expectation at play, and really, it's not so much expectation as much as schema and how they are organized in the neural network. When you are expecting something, on the "spider web", the following schema of this thing you expect has more chance to be that thing you expect. Okay makes sense.

Instead of saying that techniques such as giving an order are subcategories of the "Expectation technique", I would say both the expectation technique and the order technique are techniques of orienting yourself in the schema network. I would even add other techniques. In Sivason's class, he teaches about visualization. Why expect a banana, when you can actively visualize it. That brings you closer to the schema. Once you visualize an object, you are directly stimulating that schema. And I think the belief... no, not the belief. The knowledge. I believe that the knowledge that the dream is completely and entirely you, I think this belief allows you to directly stimulate any schema through intent or visualization or expectation and allow the schema to be just as if you were moving the limb of your physical body in waking life.

But the schema move rapidly, and always, even mastering these techniques, the mind moves quickly from schema to schema and surely stimulating one and bringing it to existence in the dream can rapidly lead to another schema. There is little permanence. It's messy.

This makes sense to me.

You know what, I think you're onto something. The dreamworld is, after all, a network of associated schemas. Expectation, then, is only one of the possible fundamental ways in which the dreamer can manipulate the schema network. I wonder what other fundamental ways there are, though.

Agreed.

I think visualization is a second fundamental way to navigate the schema network. I think expectation uses "cause and effect" to reach certain schema. Visualization, is the direct manifestation of a chosen schema. I have never used schema in dreams but I have when awake, with eyes closed and open, and during the hallucination stage of falling asleep and I expect it would be also powerful in the dream.

I wonder what everyone thinks of this. But as of this point, we could say:

Fundamental Dream Control Techniques relying on navigating the schema network:
1. Expectation
2. Visualization

I haven't been reading enough of the "dream control tutorials", most likely there are other techniques that fall in another category.

Another thing.

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Originally Posted by DreamLord1

The dreamworld is, after all, a network of associated schemas.

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I expect dreams prefer certain schema over other. Maybe they don't and dreams have as much chance to include any existing schema as any other. But maybe some schema are more likely to appear in the dream, perhaps because of their emotional value or something else. Maybe, dream control can be eased by understanding these more important schema. Let me explain.

Lots of my dreams and especially lucid dreams involved me running away from a big group. There were recurring dreams of me trespassing during my lucid dreams and being chased for the remainder of the dream. In my daily life, I am a social person but I have always perceived myself as a stranger visiting groups of already established friends. I was wrong. I know I have been part of many groups of people who cared for me as much as the other members of the group but I always perceived myself as an intruder, a stranger. I worked on this perspective, and I started telling myself, "I belong to this group, I belong with these people" whenever the feeling that I didn't belong would come. Since then, I do not have these recurring dreams of running away from groups of people who are chasing me outside the borders of their territory. See, the schema of my dreams were the schema of my waking life that most challenged me.

I think any manner of dream control could not have removed the people chasing me in my dreams as long as I didn't do some control of my mind first and changed the schema that I use in my waking life. Now, I know the feeling of belonging. I am not a stranger in my dreams anymore.

Dream control is not just magic. It's control of the mind. Expectation and visualization won't be enough to control your dream unless you know how to control your mind and your schema network, especially the negative pathways.

Schema is knowledge. To manipulate the schema is to manipulate the knowledge. Knowledge can be manipulated by learning.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Dream control is not just magic. It's control of the mind. Expectation and visualization won't be enough to control your dream unless you know how to control your mind and your schema network, especially the negative pathways.

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I agree, and would add that mental discipline is another key. You need to be very good at preventing random thoughts from arising and taking hold. See this lesson, http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-yoga...-thoughts.html
Take my example above. The reason I talk about the banana in such a dismissive way, is that I am suppressing the thought of the banana. Sure, some part of my mind started to think "banana" but it is a line of thought contrary to the effect I was after. Therefore, I eliminate the concept of a banana or that I failed to summon the drink. I insert one focused thought "I did summon a drink" and then use visualization to create the drink. That visualization is a specific skill where you can create stimuli through focus. The other aspect is the ability to not allow the "banana" thought to emerge any further. Even questioning "why a banana" is reinforcing the thought stream, which I must avoid.

Yes very good points :) When expectation is linked back to ones mind state it becomes obviouse that being able to have a good handle over the contents and direction of your mind/thinking/feeling self is paramount to how much control or ease you are gonna have in the next instant.

This kinda thing brings the whole topic closer to dream yoga too I guess ...if one has an interest in improving etc ones state/life - which many lucid dreamers do I think ;-)

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Originally Posted by dolphin

Schema is knowledge. To manipulate the schema is to manipulate the knowledge. Knowledge can be manipulated by learning.

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Agreed. I would change the wording a bit.
Knowledge = schema. Learning = forming/changing the schema network. Memory = calling forth a schema from the network.

Sageous has been putting a lot of focus on memory as a fundamental of lucid dreaming because it allows us to have a consciousness most similar to that of waking life, if I am paraphrasing properly. Now, I just find it curious that we have come to the same word for dream control, memory. I guess it is so paramount to dreaming because memory is bringing forth schema, knowledge that we have learned, which are the building blocks of dreams.

Or I think I am making too many connections now. Memory for lucid dreaming is to have a purer self-awareness, understanding of the context, that we are sleeping and we are now dreaming. But surely, accessing memory makes it easier to call forth schema in order to control the dream.

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Originally Posted by sivason

I agree, and would add that mental discipline is another key. You need to be very good at preventing random thoughts from arising and taking hold. See this lesson, http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-yoga...-thoughts.html
Take my example above. The reason I talk about the banana in such a dismissive way, is that I am suppressing the thought of the banana. Sure, some part of my mind started to think "banana" but it is a line of thought contrary to the effect I was after. Therefore, I eliminate the concept of a banana or that I failed to summon the drink. I insert one focused thought "I did summon a drink" and then use visualization to create the drink. That visualization is a specific skill where you can create stimuli through focus. The other aspect is the ability to not allow the "banana" thought to emerge any further. Even questioning "why a banana" is reinforcing the thought stream, which I must avoid.

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I failed to see that when reading the banana/drink example, especially, because I was so focused on the word expectation that I didn't like to describe dream control.

[^^ Good points all, Occipitalred. I was writing the post below as yours appeared, but I'm out of time so sorry if I'm not responding to the important things you just said.]


Interesting OP and conversation, guys; it's nice when discussions take meaningful routes like this!

A couple of belated semi-random thoughts:

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Originally Posted by Patience108

This kinda thing brings the whole topic closer to dream yoga too I guess ...if one has an interest in improving etc ones state/life - which many lucid dreamers do I think ;-)

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To me, that's not a surprise. The Dream Yogis have been at this for quite a while, and have not only addressed things like dream control, expectation, etc, they have developed the non-dual attitude and state of mind necessary to harness them. If you're looking to advance your lucid skills and experience, Dream Yoga is definitely a good direction in which to head.

Speaking of Dream Yoga:

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Originally Posted by DreamLord1

You know what, I think you're onto something. The dreamworld is, after all, a network of associated schemas. Expectation, then, is only one of the possible fundamental ways in which the dreamer can manipulate the schema network. I wonder what other fundamental ways there are, though.

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Yes, expectation is indeed one of the fundamentals of dream control, and LD'ing in general... but the other two -=- self-awareness and memory -- must also be present, both for strong lucidity and for full control.

Yes, your expectation is integral to generating/customizing dream schema patterns that better match your desire, but if you depend only on expectation you might not enjoy the control you could have. This is because expectation assumes an attitude of duality, where you are effectively telling a dreaming mind that is not you to do the things you wish it to do. With practice, this will work to a degree, but your control -- and lucid experience -- will be limited until you are able to come to an understanding that the entire dream world is You, and that any requests you make for changes are petitions you are making to yourself, and not to a separate controlling entity. That understanding comes about through a combination of self-awareness and memory: self-awareness to truly know that everything in and about the dream is You, and access to memory to ensure that you remain tethered to You.

I probably had more to say, and certainly should clarify that last paragraph, but time is short.

I will just add anecdotally that the sivason "keep thinking that it worked until it does" approach to dream control is both extremely practical and simple approach that I have myself used successfully quite a lot. It doesn't require contemplating the deep meanings of expectation, schema, etc (there are a number of such discussions here already, from what I've seen of them they almost always fall into argument between people who probably agree with each other, but don't realize it, because the definitions of these terms provide only approximate understanding of concepts that can really only be understood wordlessly). There is a wordless internal framing/comprehension that must take place in order for dream control to work, and the word "expectation" is generally good enough I think to describe it. You just keep "expecting" that what you wanted to happen, has in fact happened, until it has.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

...because the definitions of these terms provide only approximate understanding of concepts that can really only be understood wordlessly).

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Hence why this discussion is important, at least, for me if no one else :)

I find it interesting, that very often, any new enlightening idea I get, I have seen before. And though I understood the message then, it didn't resonate with me then. Some concepts, I need to think through many times before I am truly satisfied with my understanding. It doesn't mean I didn't understand it before or that I won't understand it better later. But there's a 'click'. And I do feel that trusting the theory behind "expectation" will give it more power in practice. And simple acceptance of only just the word "expectation" without a discussion about it might lead to the dual attitude Sageous just refered to.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Hence why this discussion is important, at least, for me if no one else :)

I find it interesting, that very often, any new enlightening idea I get, I have seen before. And though I understood the message then, it didn't resonate with me then. Some concepts, I need to think through many times before I am truly satisfied with my understanding. It doesn't mean I didn't understand it before or that I won't understand it better later. But there's a 'click'. And I do feel that trusting the theory behind "expectation" will give it more power in practice. And simple acceptance of only just the word "expectation" without a discussion about it might lead to the dual attitude Sageous just refered to.

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I also enjoy very much looking into word usage and meaning.I am always relieved and grateful to find ways to open up/broaden out terms used often in my areas of interest ~ it helps me a lot todo this. I know in the end it's all just words but for me to have a real good feeling of the meaning of whatever I am contemplating is crucial :goodjob2:

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[...] of my dreams and especially lucid dreams involved me running away from a big group. There were recurring dreams of me trespassing during my lucid dreams and being chased for the remainder of the dream. In my daily life, I am a social person but I have always perceived myself as a stranger visiting groups of already established friends. I was wrong. I know I have been part of many groups of people who cared for me as much as the other members of the group but I always perceived myself as an intruder, a stranger. I worked on this perspective, and I started telling myself, "I belong to this group, I belong with these people" whenever the feeling that I didn't belong would come. Since then, I do not have these recurring dreams of running away from groups of people who are chasing me outside the borders of their territory. See, the schema of my dreams were the schema of my waking life that most challenged me.

I think any manner of dream control could not have removed the people chasing me in my dreams as long as I didn't do some control of my mind first and changed the schema that I use in my waking life. Now, I know the feeling of belonging. I am not a stranger in my dreams anymore.

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That is what I find a lot in those "impossible to control" dreams. I'm coming to see if I cannot change the outcome in the dream, and it keeps recurring, I need to think about what is going on in my waking life. I may or may not have a lucid dream experience, but I can see cause and effect from my waking life sometimes and how it affects the dream. If I feel an emotional breakthrough, that shows up in my dreams somehow as triumphing a dream enemy. But if I slip into old emotions and self negativity, then it comes back. I've also noticed I get more control of my dreams if I am able to reflect upon on what I just dreamed, analyze it in my waking time and imagine changes I would have made had I gotten the chance. Sometimes the next dream or a future dream will honor that or sometimes not. That enabled me to edit the weather in one dream. But I seemed to have gotten the dream will upset doing so. It was some mental battle trying to cease a tornado and get a sunny sky. That translated as being scolded by some harsh voice/ angry telepathic messages about not being God and who am I to change the weather, as well as several attempted resets the dream made to 'correct' my changes. Future dreams trying to do the same resulted in more aggressive resets. For me it seems if the dream doesn't like my control, it will reset. Like its got either a hidden replay button, savepoint, or a file system restore, that my subconscious can access. It starts over from the point I tried to change the dream and I'd be faced with the scene again. I can either keep trying to change it (and end up waking up in frustration) or carry on with the dream's laws of physics.

In the future I stopped trying to erase tornadoes but stare at them and just watch them off in a distance. Treat them like I'd stare at a sunset. Sometimes I feel the need to take cover or change dream scenes by switching to an underground or indoor sequence. Sometimes I am able to just continue on and ignore them. It seems I get less fight from the dream accepting some things as "reality" than trying to change them. I noticed as a result tornado dreams have become rarer, the tornadoes farer away, and more of them seem to be losing the fear element to them.

I'm guessing those dreams my subconscious must be feeling stressed about something and it is reaching crisis or melting point, so any attempt to try to ignore it, just prolongs the agony. If I can parse out what emotions I feel during those dreams and approach them in my waking world, I notice that seems to change the outcome in future dreams dealing with the situation. Sometimes better. Sometimes worse.

Bugfolk, you are saying that going with the flow leads to greater benefits than controlling the dream, (I like to paraphrase).

I wonder if that's because, when we try to control the dream, we actually change the thematic emotion of the dream, if we don't do it subtly enough.

Okay, enough theory. Time for practice.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Hence why this discussion is important, at least, for me if no one else :)

I find it interesting, that very often, any new enlightening idea I get, I have seen before. And though I understood the message then, it didn't resonate with me then. Some concepts, I need to think through many times before I am truly satisfied with my understanding. It doesn't mean I didn't understand it before or that I won't understand it better later. But there's a 'click'. And I do feel that trusting the theory behind "expectation" will give it more power in practice. And simple acceptance of only just the word "expectation" without a discussion about it might lead to the dual attitude Sageous just refered to.

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Nothing wrong with discussion, we just must be vigilant for the (not very productive) case where people are basically going around in circles saying "I disagree with you because your words for your internal framing [that magical "click" when you "get it"] don't match the words I've chosen for my internal framing." There comes a point where such discussions can never converge.

I will readily admit that I fall much more heavily on the practice/practical side than on the theoretical side of the discussion. That's why I like sivason's approach so much: it is a simple but powerful guide of how to behave and think in a dream in order for control tasks to succeed, without getting lost in the why.

I don't think the discussion should end just coz folks are chatting passionately :)

It's great to see some honest Frank talk about how dream control and our mind states are intimately linked...some of us are deeper thinkers ( not nessesarily a good thing but it's a fact ) so it helps to bring these together to air them so we can ease ourselves into the nesesary practices to improve etc

Sivason who teaches the dream yoga will know exactly how these two are linked probably although he doesn't explain all the details in the tutorials ...

And Sageous speaking earlier about the ' non dual ' thing we need to work on for it all to come together was amazing - I would love to hear more

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Originally Posted by Patience108

It's great to see some honest Frank talk about how dream control and our mind states are intimately linked...

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That uppercase on Frank... I was sure you were talking about Frank Dimeglio at first... lol. I think we should stay away from that kind of theoretical conversation! :chuckle:

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

That uppercase on Frank... I was sure you were talking about Frank Dimeglio at first... lol. I think we should stay away from that kind of theoretical conversation! :chuckle:

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I miss Frank.

So do I, but maybe I even just fell in love with his character that we created. Ironically, the stories were what destroyed him. And I never posted that chapter starring you, though it was finished, because I was in the middle of final exams, and it was sexual. :P

In the story I wrote, I remember, Dimeglio was learning dream control. Not expectation. He was simply learning to control the dream as you move a limb, by simply doing.

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

That uppercase on Frank... I was sure you were talking about Frank Dimeglio at first... lol. I think we should stay away from that kind of theoretical conversation! :chuckle:

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You have something against half-gravity? :P

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

That uppercase on Frank... I was sure you were talking about Frank Dimeglio at first... lol. I think we should stay away from that kind of theoretical conversation! :chuckle:

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Ha ha I was in the dark but then found out about Frank :chuckle: Frankly I like him! :D

This priciple of expectation makes your reality and your experience in this dimension too. This is the greatest thing you can learn in this life. You get what you expect. There is no exception. No one can escape that.

By expectation I mean strong conviction that something will happen. (Or strong fear that something will happen: its an expectation too.) Jesus called it "faith" and said that it is the substance of "all things". Buddha said something similar and even more precise: that this dimension is a physical dream, a projection of mind. That you make your world with your thoughts (your mind).

Just observe your mind, your beliefs and expectations and you will see that your life is a perfect replica of that. So you can change your life by understanding that and by having a control over your mind.

In dreams of course it is instantaneous, there is no physical limits, no time or gravity. So of course here you will not fly just because you expect it... at least not in a second. Lol In many ancient texts it is said that humans can do those things because the mind is the only absolute "law". But in this life most people have hard times expecting just love... for them even that doest exist. Most people are full of self imposed limits.

May we all be awaken to our great nature. Love.

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Bugfolk, you are saying that going with the flow leads to greater benefits than controlling the dream, (I like to paraphrase).

I wonder if that's because, when we try to control the dream, we actually change the thematic emotion of the dream, if we don't do it subtly enough.

Okay, enough theory. Time for practice.

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I wonder about that. It might just be for me it works out that way. Or I might be onto something. My problem lately has been not being able to remember enough of every dream unless I'm given enough awareness. That could be because lately nearly every day in the week I've been be woken up by something like my alarm or the phone. I notice though helping me stay on schedule and get to work it doesn't help me remember dreams at all. They get lost if my waking thoughts are stuck on answering the phone or what I need to pack together for work.

I'm guessing closer to full control would help me remember dreams better, even if I have no time to reflect on them immediately after waking, but then again maybe not. Maybe I should be going to bed earlier. It seems my best chance of getting a dream I remember is when I end up going to bed before midnight and oversleep. or get about an 8-12 hour block of solid sleep.

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Originally Posted by BugFolk

or get about an 8-12 hour block of solid sleep.

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I find for me a real magic zone for dreaming is at 9 hours sleep. Sadly, most people rarely get a ninth hour of sleep.