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Im just curious, for anyone who is rather proficient at lucid dreaming, castaneda talks in the art of dreaming about 4 of th 7 gates of dreaming and one of them is being able to dream yourself to concrete places in this world, ie. dream of seeing yourself in bed
im curious if anyone has had an experience like this, i have not ever done this although i have astral projected several times (i think its essentially the same thing)
ne way
love and light
I've seen myself in bed in dreams. It's just a dream of... seeing yourself in a bed.
Yea, same.
Not a fan or whatever, but once I looked at my bed and saw that it was empty :)
Castande talks about 2 different scenarios:
1. A normal dream in which you see your self sleeping - worthless
2. A special state in which you see your physical body sleeping in the real world - invaluable!
An OBE? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
Poor things who believe in that crap! I'll break my sides laughing some day ;)
Well, most people who speak of OBEs today, mean to say: a (normal) lucid dream in which you see your body....Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
It's always good to laugh ;) I hope it will prepare you well for the day that you actually have an OBE, and shit in your physical pants out of terror :banana: But I agree that anyone who "believes" in it blindly is a fool....
right. so no chance that you might see youself in bed precisely because thats what you want to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
You hint at having had an OBE and having shitted your physical pants afterwards? That's getting interesting. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
Tell me about it ;) And how you checked the realness of it, in order to make sure that you're not believing blindly like a fool.
I suggest that you read AOD - it's downright indecent! (in a positive way :D)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Believing will not be an issue as it's a great book no matter how "real" you believe it is...
haha when I first skimmed by this thread I thought it was about dan castellaneta... but now i see its someone else. still, I've never heard of him :P
Haha, what an extravagant name for a book, Aod! I doubt that it's helping it to sell well. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
Art Of Dreaming! (Best seller BTW)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Let's just say that without this precious man, this site would probably not exist... no, I'm not exaggerating....:bowdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Claw
Haha I know, I was pulling your leg! It was funny how your wrote "read AOD", as if everybody must know what the abbreviation means :D. I hope it wasn't offensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
That's not true.Quote:
Let's just say that without this precious man, this site would probably not exist... no, I'm not exaggerating....:bowdown:
Googled to get the dates of these works about LDing:
1867 (!) - Dreams and How to Guide Them, by Marquis d'Hervey de Saint-Denys
1913 - A Study of Dreams, by Frederick Van Eeden
LaBerge followed, building on these works. Whether Castaneda would write about LDing or not, LaBerge would be there.
Besides, I doubt that Castaneda's books have much value for LDing community. He never even mentioned lucidity, instead he kept writing wild stuff, like travelling to real places and beating physical people with his astral hands :D
None taken ;) I had a feeling you're just teasing me...:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
I didn't say that there wasn't anything about LDing. I said "this site", and what I meant was that Castaneda was the one that caused most of the interest among the mobs and the new generation. All the other LD books writers are actually riding Castaneda's success ... (popularity wise)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
LOL! In certain ways you are right... I don't suppose a "sorcerer" could fit properly to a forum :) BUT- he does talk about lucid dreaming- teaches you more the any other book IMO... I guess you just didn't read :oops:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Enjoy your Castaneda :)
Read all 4 pages.
I hate to break it to you, but plenty of us would be lucid dreaming whether or not DV or castaneda had written anything about it. And the inherent interest in people who experienced it, in a time when the internet exists, means there would've been a webpage.
Again- I DIDN'T say thart the topic would not exist ! just wouldn't be nearly as popular.....
This is not new to me..... it's crap... no need for me to defend the guy;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
Theres plenty of books on Alien Abductions too (or what Lucid dreamers are more likely understand to be sleep paralysis).
Does that fact that there's a book = evidence of aliens on Earth?
I didn't say that his books are "real".... I did say they are awesome! and I also said they taught me a great deal about LDing...Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
:boogie:
What great deal? I didn't find much... In Art of Dreaming: one RC with your hands and a method to change dream scenes by falling asleep. All the rest either implies magic or is useless. From the useless category: move in dreams by concentrating on something to let it pull you (how limited is that? can't you walk or fly?), try to catch the moment of falling asleep (with no explanations or techniques).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
That's all strictly about LDing that I remember, all the rest was magic. That's not a great deal. Did I miss something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Castenada is to lucid dreaming what the four humors are to medical science.
I had a dream the other day in which I saw and held myself as an infant.
Good for you.
well then.. he has a new fanQuote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
First of all, no RC in mentioned - looking at your hands is not a RC, it's just the first "task" a dreamer undertakes (a "technique"), then it becomes a focus aid. you are supposed to glance at 4 objects and back to your hands, and gradually increase the number of objects to include everything. (another technique) the purpose is to NOT let the objects and scenery change. - when you get to that point you will become aware to the moment of falling asleep! ("explanation"). ONLY AFTER you mastered this "first gate" you may continue to the second - which is NOT to "change dream scenes by falling asleep" BUT rather to "change dreams", that is, to "shift your assemblage point to a different position and then fix it in the new location- meaning: a way to control and change you AWARENESS (maybe you just prefer lucid sex:P)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
. If you'll read carefully you'll find MUCH more!!! But you didn't read at all right??? do you want me to read it aloud for you over the phone?:D
AOD is a treasure! (aids from the books include: "not doing","stopping the internal dialog","recapitulation","magical passes" and many more)
It works as an RC or a lucid aid, every time I tried it I became lucid. So what's the point in saying that it's not an RC?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
And so? Is it possible? Can you do it?Quote:
the purpose is to NOT let the objects and scenery change.
I'm not against magic per se, only against things impossible to achieve that people claim to be achievable making the gullible type waste time for trying to achieve the same. This is one of those things. The dream will change, whether you like it or not.
There are many many people who can do it without getting to any special point prior to that.Quote:
when you get to that point you will become aware to the moment of falling asleep! ("explanation").
In both cases the end result is the same, the dream scene changes, the only difference is that you give a more mystical description to the process.Quote:
NOT to "change dream scenes by falling asleep" BUT rather to "change dreams", that is, to "shift your assemblage point to a different position and then fix it in the new location
I always thought all Castaneda wrote about was bullshit and that it was all made up letter by letter... until I tried it out in practise, and it all worked up until now, and I'm not only talking about the dreaming stuff. Anyway, my point is, his claims are so farfetched and unbelievable that you need to try this out for yourself and see for yourself before you can believe it. Just reading won't do you any good. Practise is the key.. but I guess castaneda is more for the hadcore LDers among us who want to lucid dream each night whenever they want to and not for those LDers who only lucid dream once in a while... for those people RCing and a dreamjournal will do.
*In AOD , looking at your hands is not a RC... you are welcome to do whatever you want with it... :) It happened many times to me that I looked at my hands as a RC, and they looked real and didn't change at all - and I figured it wasn't a dream and lost a LD :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
*Yes I can make dream objects not change - until I run out of "dream attention"............ it gets better the more you practice it... why wouldn't it be possible?
*There is a difference between WILDing and beeing aware during "deep sleep" (that's what I mean by "falling asleep") ... and I'm glad people achieve this state.
*It's not just a mystical way to say the same thing... it's like the difference between a person who plays the piano well and then strats to improvise, and a person who didn't learn to play and is just hitting random keys claiming it's the same as what the pro does.... that's why it's the SECOND gate, not to be attempted before the first one is done....
I totally agree with everything you wrote :bravo:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba
He made three or four women commit suicide, I don't have to say more about him.
If you read his latests book you see how he devoloped some great delusion, and most importantly the "wise man" called Don Juan is imaginitive. If you dig deep enough you find out that he had his own little witch sect, treated them like he was some king, he was a total control freak, he made people leave their family and quit their job, he told his closes "witches" that they should kill themselves and they would all go to la-la land together in death. Also a lot of his books and alleged experiences was down right plagiarism.
It's actually a very tragic story..
OMG! it means I also have to commit suicide.... :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
I didn't mean staring at something. It's easy, it's a dream law that when you look for a while, what you look at remains unchanged for a while. But can you look at all that you see in front of you, turn around, and check back how it looks? I bet it looks differently, although in a dream you may have not enough logical faculty to realize which details are different. Your dream attention as you call it failed you instantly, once you turned around to look at another part of your dream. And good luck with simpler things like opening a book and keeping at least one sentence on its page unchanged after looking away. Take dream characters into account, too. If somebody walks in, it's an involuntary change in the dream scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
Do you know what a WILD is? It's being aware of falling asleep. Technically in NREM ("deep sleep") just like you say, NREM comes first in the dream cycle.Quote:
There is a difference between WILDing and beeing aware during "deep sleep" (that's what I mean by "falling asleep")
Such insane boasting coming from somebody who doesn't know what a WILD is...Quote:
it's like the difference between a person who plays the piano well and then strats to improvise, and a person who didn't learn to play and is just hitting random keys claiming it's the same as what the pro does
Specialis Sapientia, I see that it's falling on deaf ears :(. Bolo wouldn't want to understand that if she wanted to be a part of Castaneda's group, her only chance would be to hope that she's pretty enough to sleep with him.
Yeh.. I thought about mentioning that part too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
LOL !
WILD goes through stage 1... I know what's a WILD... :)
I guess I shouldn't boast insanely no more ..... LOL...
You won... Carlos Castaneda -0 Arutad -1 Bolo -not pretty enough
Ok I'm content :D
:content:
Who cares about his tragic story if the techniques work? Instead of arguing about the proficiency of the techniques you're arguing about how many girls he slept with lol, I think you might be slightly missing the point here ;) No matter how many women that are going to commit suicide, it's not going to stop the techniques from working. What's next, you're going to falsify Albert Einstiens hypothesis's by comparing them to the number of times he cheated on his wife to determine their reliability? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
Its the difference betweenQuote:
Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba
a) gravity works because of physics
b) gravity works because an invisible purple space elephant is holding us down by blowing air from its massive trunk.
Who cares as long as gravity works, right? :roll:
LOL !:DQuote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
"gravity works because of physics"
Think about this sentence..... It's completely nonsensical !:D
Say, darling, are you pretty enough to sleep with our beloved space elephant? It's time someone would return his purpleness a favor (blow job comes to mind) ! :oops:
Is gravity is a homosexual ? or should I do the job? (after I'm done with Castaneda of course) ;)
Oh that's getting ridiculous.
ChaybaChayba says that some techniques work, so everything is true. How so? Sure some of them might work, many meditative techniques produce hallucinations if you're patient, not only Castaneda's. However it doesn't tell us anything about how truthful his other claims are. If you choose to believe in them, you do it blindly.
Chayba, I remember your thread about great power of the pineal gland. Now you can start your own religion, create cool stories and stuff around it, and wait till people who are successful with this method buy everything else you've made up additionally. And there will be successful people for sure, just like there would be such people even if it was about great power of the toe, so get ready for fame! :)
On a serious note, it's really weird for thinking people to see how fans who managed to make something work (at least I hope so, otherwise it's all empty talk from your side) immediately extrapolate it to encompass everything.
LOLLLLQuote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Arutad, let me remind you that both me and Chayba don't believe in Castaneda's story... (Chayba, correct me if I'm wrong)
NEVERTHELESS, his books are GREAT!!! they are sophisticated and colorful, inspiring, artful and very very interesting !!! (and I usually don't fall for new Age and stuff like that...) Sure, lots of people are pist off for understandable reasons, but lighten up... it's just great art... give it a try.... ;)
Wow. Bolo sure is in a laughing mood today, judging by the number of "lol's" hes typed up. Y'know, to indicate how "amused" he is.
But surelyBOLO can't be suggesting that the physics and gravitational forces are unrelated? That really would be worth a few LOLs. If I was 12.
What amazes me isn't the LOL-s themselves, but rahter way she uses themQuote:
Originally Posted by moonshine
"Loughing out Loud Loud Loud Loud"...
I think her point was that saying "gravity works because of physics" is basically the same as saying "2 + 2 works because of mathematics". Physics isn't really a reason, it's an explanation.
You can't remind what you've never said. Besides, the story is inevitably linked to the claims. If the story is untrue, then many claims are untrue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
As for books, they're irritatingly boring, written in a dry manner. I have no idea how they managed to become bestsellers, but people say that back in time there was nothing else at all...
Well it's pretty clear that he spoke about natural laws that are now known as laws of physics, not about physics as a science.Quote:
Originally Posted by khh
That's not quite right. CC never wrote that bit about "seeing yourself in bed." He wrote that DJ said about "seeing yourself asleep" which is not necessarily the same thing. No mention of any bed. You may remember that DJ's preferred method of sleeping-for-dreaming was sitting upright in an armchair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
Also, don't fall into the trap of thinking that you will be some distance from your sleeping body if and when it ever happens to you. You might be only a few centimetres away.. you know.. up close and personal.
Datura person? That is such cat crap. LaBerge obviously read Castaneda 10 years before his new age discourse EWOLD was published. (Another acronym for your collection). Castaneda was huge over this time.. selling millions of books, on the cover of Time magazine etc etc. Of course LaBerge was influenced by him, as was that other new age blimp called William Buhlmann, and hundreds of other writers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
If you've ever read the CC oeuvre, I'm a friggin chinaman. You misquote, wrongly attribute, and downright fabricate. He never even mentioned lucidity? Ha! You are so full of it.. you've obviously read sweet Fanny Adams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Pathetic. You've either not read it, or your memory is pants. "A method to change dream scenes by falling asleep" is what you wrote. You couldn't have got it more wrong. Now go away and read it properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Your "memory" is awful. The book is replete with LD info... but I wouldn't expect you to know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Oh no it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
Datura person? I'd lay off those flowers.. and get rid of your cat as well. T.Gondii rears its ugly head.
Oh no, Oneiro and his rave.
Did you actually look at the book titles that I mentioned and at their dates? Their authors discovered LDing pretty early. LaBerge knew about those books. And what's that about my nick again, hahaha. If you absolutely must know it's an abbreviation, I wouldn't dream of calling myself after a DRUG. But since you even raved that I'm not a woman in another thread and professed to know other things (from prophetic visions presumably), I guess only a shrink could talk sense into you now. That's what happens when you don't care for truth and live through your wishful thinking, be it in case of OBEs being "real" or anything else.
Anyway, for all I can see people here who defend Castaneda pull out two claims:
1) his techniques work (even if stories are false)
2) if it was not for him, we wouldn't know about LDing
The first claim can be discussed, but the goal of discussing the second one is not obvious. Even if it was true, then what? It doesn't make anybody trust the man more.
Wow, two more posts for me while I was typing the previous one. I'm flattered! Unfortunately I can see nothing except "you're wrong you're wrong" mantra, as usually, just like Bolo you can only repeat that without anything to back you up.
Datura person? I think you've come to a fork in the road: you can either 1) Just be a troll, or 2) Answer the points I raised about your statements.
Because I have noted with resignation that you just avoid addressing my points about you, and dive in with the piss-taking comments.
Have you got anything at all to say?
Thats the one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
People, people!
Control your aggression... we're here to help each other (right?)....
Don Juan Matus advises us all to fight our sense of self importance:banana:
This thread has become vile... (also my fault, I know...)
What is "Datura person"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
Datura are some flowers, or do you mean Arutad/
/Datura
One more thing before I disappear:
That is a complete lie, and libellous to boot. If the Cleargreen police hear about your (completely unfounded) statement, they might even sue. I'm not joking. They've done it before. I would advise the mods to delete that post of yours, before any trouble can start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
I just don't know where you get off making such statements. The remains of one of his party were found half-eaten in the desert, an open verdict at the Coroner's. The other main three women have gone incognito and disappeared.
It's quite vile of those who say that they've all committed suicide. There is absolutely no proof whatsoever of any suicide anywhere.
Get your facts right in future- don't take as gospel anything you've been told about CC, because much of it is hearsay.
Oneiro, we both know who the troll here is.
How can I "answer the points you raised" if you didn't raise any points? Or is quoting others and saying "you're wrong go read a book" after every quotation called raising a point nowadays? :D Live and learn...
Both I think. He seems to enjoy silly trolling: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...3&postcount=13Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
That's about me, too. :thumbdown:
Tell me, have you read http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2...eda/index.html ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneiro
It is not unfounded, read it. Don't think that I have not done anymore research, I certainly have.
Your witty remark about the police is just that, witty. I tell you one thing, give me the e-mail of Cleargreen police, and I will personally confront them with this.
Oh my, you are "worshipping" the wrong guy :bowdown:
Yes.. but I seriously have to wonder if you yourself actually have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
In that cited article, it states:
Some former Castaneda associates suspect the missing women committed suicide.
That is a million miles away from what you wrote:" He made three or four women commit suicide".. which I maintain could well be libellous.
Heh. You make me smile. This article is a rather vile set of accusations against CC, using de Mille as the nemesis figure of authority. Do you not see that this article that you take to be gospel is so inherently biased as to be essentially unbelievable? If this is your "proof", you're on very sticky ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
Are you daft? I don't worship CC at all.. but the techniques he wrote about really work.. ain't that strange?Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia
Bye bye.
Denying Castaneda's contribution to LDing in popular culture is like trying to deny the holocaust.
He writes in his books that belief is not necessary, all that is necessary is practice. He didn't want anyone to believe, he wanted people to see for themselves.
And a hell of a lot of his techniques really do work. Even the stranger sounding ones. And not just for people who've read the books and know what to expect.
Yes CC tec's do work since I have not tried other techni's like WILD or others. rECAPİTULATİON WORKS FOR ME.
He tells all about being lucid, you'll see if you read carefully.
My first dream was so lucid that I didn't realize I was dreaming at first, I thought I was awake. Others are lucid too. I think for CC volution was more important than the degree of lucidity. They go together somehow though.
In other his books he tells about the other gates of dreaming,up to the seventh one.
He addresses the right brain in his books and he does his job like a true master.
I do not think he made the stuff up .
I many of his sentences which seem unimportant , CC is forging the readers energy body,without being noticed by the readers rational,argumentative left brain. The books are pieces of art.
Right. So his techniques work, except from those that don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cusp
Not denying he may have accidentally got some things right.
In the same way as people knew they would fall off a cliff long before issac newton got bonked on the head by an apple.
Personally in these enlightened times, I'd much rather work with information based on something more substantial than cultish superstition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolo
:D hehe right on! i love CC's books regardless of whatever speculation you could come up with. they're not for everybody but there's always some good stuff to be found.
Shit you got me there.. I have to admit, it's true.. we people who believe in crazy stuff like pineal glands and lucid dreaming actually all made it up. Why? For the fame and power! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutad
His books are not about believing in them in the least. He says over and over that he doesn't believe what happened, and often suspects elaborate set ups.
The thing is, Castaneda wasn't some sort of genius guru. He was actually quite dense in that regard and didn't have a clue what he was writing about. But his teacher Don Juan did.
The value of his books lies in his skill as a descriptive writer, especially in his ability to describe abstract or surreal things. He describes what he's been taught, wether he understands it or not, and he describes his experiences.
So you have the techniques, and his experience to gauge your own against. With so much of his stuff being spot on, you have to wonder how much else is right.
Even though shamanism is major part of my major and minor subjects, somehow I've managed to avoid Castaneda. Ok, that is off-topic... Except the LD I had in a hospital was quite shamanic.
I had quite severe case of collapsed lung last summer so I spent couple of weeks in a hospital bed with a drain tube coming out of my side. I was in a room with another patient, who had appendicitis. Usually the nurses pulled a curtain between us before it was time to sleep.
One night I heard my roommate moaning for the pain and I woke up (or thought so), first I wondered why they have pulled the curtain aside and then I saw about 4'9" (150cm) tall human like creature with monkey feet holding this poor appendicitis patient in his grasp. So what I did was I pretended to be in much weaker condition than I really was to lure the creature to jump on me, which it did. As soon as it was over me, I inhaled it (it was a spirit creature, like air) and tried to capture it inside of my lung.
My plan worked rather well, except that I had the stupid drain tube stuck to my lung, so the creature jumped out through the tube sticking between my ribs and escaped! Darn! :D
Even though I understand the spirit creature was a creation of my own mind, the freaky thing was the drain tube wound didn't heal as well as they expected. Hmm... :roll: :D Wonder how much the strong medications had to do with it, that it was lucid. Had three LDs during that hospital period.
Well, I was going to say that I have had a dream where I've seen myself sleeping in a bed, but I haven't. But that was one of my most vivid lucid dreams ever, even though I wasn't able to control the drain tube away nor the surroundings where it took place.
Such claims don't sound convincing at all. Nobody knows what stuff is spot on for you. Maybe it's something like this, quoted from the post above:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cusp
Not far from that to claiming that something "really happened" :D Wishful thinking is already present, just a little more desire to believe is all that's required.Quote:
Even though I understand the spirit creature was a creation of my own mind, the freaky thing was the drain tube wound didn't heal as well as they expected.
1) Rain is made from water.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cusp
2) The Earth circles the sun.
3) The volume of liquids expand when heated.
4) Puppies are controlled by evil aliens intent on world domination.
Cusp, you need a better quality control theory.