A poignant dream I had last night

Two fairly young guys (about college age). The first one is reasonably attractive and in good physical shape and but no body builder: caucasion, dark brown hair, brown eyes, clean-cut, clean-shaven. The second guy is somewhat stronger than the first guy, but I don’t have as clear an image in my mind of him.
I see the dream mainly from the perspective of the first guy and can identify with his feelings, but I am NOT him. I am some invisible observer. One important thing is that these two guys are very good friends, but they are both straight and their relationship is strictly platonic.
For some reason at the beginning of the dream, the first guy owes the second guy a huge favor, or is somehow greatly indebted to the other guy, but the reason for this is not fully clear – something that happened before the events in the dream. They are at some sort of Olympic pool and standing in front of a crowd of people. The first guy asks the second guy how he can make things up to him. The second guy tells him that he must swim naked in front of the crowd (which includes women and children) later that day. I don’t remember any sexual undertones to this. It’s more like he’s testing his friend’s loyalty by asking him to do something that very humbling - sort of like a dare. One thing I remember about the second guy is that he’s a good person and has been a very loyal and helpful friend to the first guy. He would not have asked the first guy to do this without a good reason. The first agree agrees to this because their friendship seems to be important to him.
There is a third guy in the crowd of people who is a bully, and sort of personal enemy of
both other guys. He’s straight too, but the first guy would still feel degraded if he had to swim naked in front of the third guy because he would probably tease and taunt him.

I remember thinking that if I had been in the first guy’s place, though, I wouldn’t have had the courage to do this, and I admired his courage.

At one point during the dream, the two guys leave and go to the second guy’s home. As I said, their friendship is strictly platonic, but while they are there the second guy seems to morph into someone who’s vulnerable and sensitive, almost feminine (but not quite). In places he almost seems to physically morph (like the hulk) but at other times it isn’t as literal. The two friends have a meaningful conversation about something (I don’t remember what). I remember wishing that I had a platonic friendship that strong with another guy. (I’m a straight guy in my thirties, but somewhat of a loner.) After their conversation, the first guy asks the second guy if he still wants him to go ahead with the dare later that evening, and the second guy says yes.

The last part of the dream I remember, the two guys are on their way back to the pool that evening. I don’t remember if he ever actually did.

One thing I should mention about myself is that my psychiatrist has had me on a mood-stabilizer (lamictol) for a couple years. Recently I’ve been weaning myself off of it gradually due to the medical expense. Each time I decrease the dosage I experience a lot of really vivid (and usually disturbing) dreams.

Hi whitelighter,

491 totals to 14, which in the Major Arcana in Tarot is symbolic of Temperance or Moderation, so that's a good number! Not part of your dream, but part of your personal symbolism.

You know, I should warn you, that doing dreamwork with interpretation is a lot like swimming naked in front of a crowd, or at least the parts of the crowd who know something about what dreams mean. I have noticed this for years, and seem to keep doing it anyway. Why? Because I grow from it. No other reason needed, really, except that I also see it as a sort of karmic debt, something I owe to the Universe as part of making things right as much as I can, so I wonder if that is part of your dream too.

Does the physical description of the first guy, the one you identify with, match yours? Could it be that you are watching yourself? We often do that in dreams, and when we do, it generally seems to refer to trying to get an objective/rational view of yourself, rather than the subjective/emotional view you might get when you're inside the character. You're standing back, not right in the action, so you can stay more detached emotionally, instead of getting all caught up.

The second guy morphing into someone almost feminine means that the second guy is reacting emotionally to the situation, not being detached or objective about it. He seems to have an investment in this idea of you swimming naked that the dream doesn't fully make clear... perhaps it's just that he wants to see you open up to your own inner feminine/emotional side as well, to your right brain functions, which men often have a problem with.

The bully is a problem, I would imagine, but seems perhaps to be there to test courage, to be someone you need to ignore as you develop your own inner resources, even if it means making yourself vulnerable. Or maybe not ignore; maybe stand up to. Or each in it's proper season.

Nakedness is vulnerability. We are naked in a lot of ways, not just physically, but the dream uses it physically as a way to show it visually. But think about what nakedness and vulnerability in the face of bullies means to you. Think about what nakedness and vulnerability in the presence of a close brotherly friend means to you. There is a difference, but does it matter? If one can be open with the friend, be one's true self with the friend, then why not also be your true self with the bully, and hope it will change him into a better person?

I am wondering here if your psychiatrist does talk therapy with you, individually, or if he's wanting you to go to group therapy, and how you'd feel about group therapy. Are you perhaps resistant to group therapy, because it makes you feel naked and vulnerable, because someone there might be a bully?

I went through a clinical depression and saw a psychoanalytically-oriented psychiatrist from 1976-85, and I loved the individual therapy, loved the talking, did not like group therapy at all (I think doing dreamwork on the internet is maybe making up for that). I also did not like the drugs at all, and flushed them all down the toilet in 1985-6, and made a decision to find alternative ways to manage my moods. I use a lot of herbs and aromatherapy and Reiki instead, and it's working pretty well for me most of the time, though I have a problem in the winter with Seasonal Affective Disorder, so I use a light box during the winter. So I think I have an understanding of where you're coming from.

I feel your dream is about therapy though, and opening up, and how sometimes it's like a friend, and maybe this is the psychiatrist himself who is the friend, or maybe you're afraid he will bully you if you tell him certain things, things you maybe don't like about yourself; you fear perhaps that he will change towards you if you're too open, too exposed, too naked.

Another way to look at it too, is that all three characters are part of yourself, and the dream is a picture of inner conflicts. The psychiatrist's role, in a way, is to reflect back those inner conflicts and make you see those inner parts of you. So it is likely he could take both of those roles in relationship to you. I don't know if he told you about "transference" which is about the way the psychiatrist stays personally unknowable, so you kind of paste your feelings about other older relationships onto them. Usually, you transfer feelings about parents especially. In that light, was one of your parents kind and a friend, and the other a bully? I'm not saying they were, just to think about that as a possiblity for these characters.

Anyway, I'll stop here and let you think about this and if you want to talk more, I'll be back!

Thanks for sharing your insight. It's really helpful to get someone else's view on this, I think some of what you said is pretty accurate.

Incidentally 491 is just the last three digits of my zip code (but in a different order).

I bear a pretty close resemblence to the first guy, but am not a carbon-copy. (I have a reasonably nice form too but am no body-builder either.)However, I have blue eyes and light brown hair. Odd, I don't even know anyone at the moment who fits the description of the first guy. Also, I haven't always been in good shape. There were times when swimming naked in front of a crowd of people would have been even scarier than now.
Now that I think about it, it seems as though the second guy had recently done something similar (but not that exact thing). I remember feeling now as though the first guy had been relying alot on the second guy. In this part of the dream I do suspect that the first guy is actually me and I've detached myself from the situation in order to view it objectively. Now, the second guy is asking the first guy to do this as a token of appreciation or something.
One other thing I didn't describe real clearly before is that the pool isn't exactly an olympic pool. It's more like some of those places you find at seaworld or something where there is an observation room underwater as well as up above. I remember that this guy who was a bully was down below watching through the glass.
I guess you could say that my mom was kind and at times my dad was a bully, but that would certainly be an overgeneralization. I don't think that accurately describes my relationship with my parents as a whole.
My psychiatrist hasn't been trying to get me to join a group or anything. In fact, he doesn't do much in the way of counseling himself. He's primarily concerned with medication, but refers people to counselors with whom he works, but I don't like any of them. I've found myself wishing that he would do more counseling because he does take a little more time with me than some psychiatrists would, and when he does I feel like I relate to him well. It would be ideal for me to have one person like this who could help me with both the medical and psychological issues. I'm not blaming him of course. He's got alot of patients. If he had more time he'd probably be willing to talk to me more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Hi whitelighter,

491 totals to 14, which in the Major Arcana in Tarot is symbolic of Temperance or Moderation, so that's a good number! Not part of your dream, but part of your personal symbolism.

You know, I should warn you, that doing dreamwork with interpretation is a lot like swimming naked in front of a crowd, or at least the parts of the crowd who know something about what dreams mean. I have noticed this for years, and seem to keep doing it anyway. Why? Because I grow from it. No other reason needed, really, except that I also see it as a sort of karmic debt, something I owe to the Universe as part of making things right as much as I can, so I wonder if that is part of your dream too.

Does the physical description of the first guy, the one you identify with, match yours? Could it be that you are watching yourself? We often do that in dreams, and when we do, it generally seems to refer to trying to get an objective/rational view of yourself, rather than the subjective/emotional view you might get when you're inside the character. You're standing back, not right in the action, so you can stay more detached emotionally, instead of getting all caught up.

The second guy morphing into someone almost feminine means that the second guy is reacting emotionally to the situation, not being detached or objective about it. He seems to have an investment in this idea of you swimming naked that the dream doesn't fully make clear... perhaps it's just that he wants to see you open up to your own inner feminine/emotional side as well, to your right brain functions, which men often have a problem with.

The bully is a problem, I would imagine, but seems perhaps to be there to test courage, to be someone you need to ignore as you develop your own inner resources, even if it means making yourself vulnerable. Or maybe not ignore; maybe stand up to. Or each in it's proper season.

Nakedness is vulnerability. We are naked in a lot of ways, not just physically, but the dream uses it physically as a way to show it visually. But think about what nakedness and vulnerability in the face of bullies means to you. Think about what nakedness and vulnerability in the presence of a close brotherly friend means to you. There is a difference, but does it matter? If one can be open with the friend, be one's true self with the friend, then why not also be your true self with the bully, and hope it will change him into a better person?

I am wondering here if your psychiatrist does talk therapy with you, individually, or if he's wanting you to go to group therapy, and how you'd feel about group therapy. Are you perhaps resistant to group therapy, because it makes you feel naked and vulnerable, because someone there might be a bully?

I went through a clinical depression and saw a psychoanalytically-oriented psychiatrist from 1976-85, and I loved the individual therapy, loved the talking, did not like group therapy at all (I think doing dreamwork on the internet is maybe making up for that). I also did not like the drugs at all, and flushed them all down the toilet in 1985-6, and made a decision to find alternative ways to manage my moods. I use a lot of herbs and aromatherapy and Reiki instead, and it's working pretty well for me most of the time, though I have a problem in the winter with Seasonal Affective Disorder, so I use a light box during the winter. So I think I have an understanding of where you're coming from.

I feel your dream is about therapy though, and opening up, and how sometimes it's like a friend, and maybe this is the psychiatrist himself who is the friend, or maybe you're afraid he will bully you if you tell him certain things, things you maybe don't like about yourself; you fear perhaps that he will change towards you if you're too open, too exposed, too naked.

Another way to look at it too, is that all three characters are part of yourself, and the dream is a picture of inner conflicts. The psychiatrist's role, in a way, is to reflect back those inner conflicts and make you see those inner parts of you. So it is likely he could take both of those roles in relationship to you. I don't know if he told you about "transference" which is about the way the psychiatrist stays personally unknowable, so you kind of paste your feelings about other older relationships onto them. Usually, you transfer feelings about parents especially. In that light, was one of your parents kind and a friend, and the other a bully? I'm not saying they were, just to think about that as a possiblity for these characters.

Anyway, I'll stop here and let you think about this and if you want to talk more, I'll be back!

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Ah, numbers from your zipcode!

My special Tarot card is XVII, 17, The Star. My birthdate reduces to 17, and I was startled to find that so does my zip code, the last four digits of my social security number, and the numbers on my license plate. Weird, huh? I think there might be a couple of others as well that I'm forgetting. It always startles me! Now you know where the star part of my screen name comes from.

Oh, yes, I used to go to Sea World all the time when we lived near San Diego when my kids were younger. We'd get a season pass so it was cheaper. I'm in Connecticut now, and there's a Marinelife Aquarium in Mystic that I visit occasionally. The pools are wonderful in that way of being able to see the animals underwater and get a better feeling for what they are seeing.

In your dream, him watching that way, seems as if he's hidden. I'm wondering if that might depict an internet situation? It's so easy to hide with a screen name, be undercover essentially, and looking at the screen is like looking through the glass. Are there any internet situations where the friend vs. bully seem to fit for you?

I know you said the cost of medication is an issue. Your psychiatrist may be recommending an MSW or PhD for the therapy, because they would be less expensive. But you still have to see a psychiatrist to get drugs prescribed. Have you talked to him about being more comfortable with him? It might make a difference! Or he might have a better idea of who would suit you. You're right that they can be very busy. My psychiatrist had both an MSW and a PhD working right in his office, and when my kids had drug issues, we'd see one of them for the kids, or for family counseling. Many of them work that way. It was better for me too, because I really needed him to just be MY doctor, so someone was on my side while I worked through the depression, so it wouldn't have been good to have the whole family going to him, really. I think a lot of them set their practices up that way, or make referrals outside their office.

Well, all the best with this! And with your therapy. I hope it all works out well for you!