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Forgotten about this bit. The woman was inside bank. If you listen to the video, the undercover cop is clearly stating to her that "you were inside" she said "I'm a customer". She didn't deny it because she was in there. The undercover more than likely witnessed her in there and it was clearly obvious that she was one of the members of that group.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Here's a video of a marine sergeant telling off the cops
And here's a video of two soldiers responding to Hannity's claims that the protesters are unamerican
Love the sign: 2nd time fighting for country, 1st time I knew my enemy
Interesting on the first video. I've never seen anyone wear service commendations on MCCUU's before. :wtf:? Let's give it a few days and see what information comes to the surface about this man.
love those marines lol
His name is Sergeant Sharam Thomas. I didn't find his myspace though so he must be faking it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
What if OWS was well-organized psychological operation? I'm just throwing that out there, take it how you want to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suEu1qrYI1s
You don't need to be completely convinced regarding the information in this video but it's very interesting nevertheless.
I don't get it. Why would they fake his chipped tooth? And why would they put "fake people" there?
I've not seem much of that at all. I think most people like the European model. The cost of a degree should be relative to the starting salary. I have a nice cheap bachelor's degree, but fresh out of school, I made twice what a teacher with a master's degree makes.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
And in response to the marine yelling "these people don't have guns' why are you hurting them?" Cacophony pasted this on her FB, thought it was fitting
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...54555210_n.jpg
So you do think that being inside a bank to close your account is illegal? She obviously wasn't in there for very long seeing that she was outside, and that the bank doors had been locked before the police showed up. If the Citi manager told her to leave, and she did, what is the charge? If Citi really thought they did something wrong, they would obligee the demands for the security tapes, that they seem so unwilling to give up. The entire bank is wired with security cameras as all banks are, if Citi shows them, I'll say you were right, but since they are hiding them, you are in the wrong. Regardless of what you think, in America, citizens are innocent until proven guilty, there is a video of police dragging her into the bank, Citi is yet to show the video that shows they were being disruptive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
This isn't a case of a cops word vs a protesters word, its a cops word vs a video. I heard no where in there that she was under arrest, they simply picked her up and dragged her into the building, that's not an arrest, that's kidnapping.
No but trespassing, being disruptive and staging a demonstration private property is illegal.
There is online footage of what happened inside. Why didn't you bother to search for it? This video declares a different story where OWS protesters are disruptive and belligerent, are asked to get the hell off the banks private property, are asked to turn off video recordings, where they refused and then of course treated like the common trespasser and arrested by local authorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2vtXJ0k7AA
I'm sorry but these clowns are completely out of life. This is a place where people work You do not stage a protest inside of a bank, have they lost their minds?? The bank is private property they have every right to have them thrown out and/or arrested.
Here's Citibank's Statement
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty that doesn't mean you cannot get arrested and detained by authorities. If you are suspect to a crime, authorities are granted power to arrest and question you under oath. The "presumption of innocence" is a legal right to citizens where the burden of proof lies completely on the prosecution who's duty is to retrieve enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is ordered and restrained by law to cogitate only substantive evidence and testimony that is legally admissible in a court of law and in most cases lawfully obtained where the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
No, that's called detainment. She was suspect to a crime and was RIGHTFULLY detained.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Dude I believe you don't really think before you type and you talk just to be in disagreement with someone.
LMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
Does this guy have that condition where he can't recognize faces?
Either that or he thinks all African Americans look alike :P
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
And white people.
You can tell he's got a strong bias when he calls the protesters protecting HIS future a bunch of idiots. And he concludes they're going to cause a false flag operation...
My conclusion? He's a fucking crackpot.
Thanks for finding that, yes, if the manager told them to leave, then they were tresspassing. Where is the part where they were asked to leave and refused? I saw a bunch of employees watching, no one telling them to leave. You said they refused to turn off the cameras, where is the rest of the video? Even if the part where they were told to leave was cut out, why was the woman who actually did leave get dragged back inside to be arrested? Can you find a video of the woman who was dragged inside participating in the protest, and refusing to leave after being told to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I'm sure a lot of them did do exactly that, but what about the one who was manhandled by the thug cop? She obviously left when she was asked to, or else she would have been locked inside. If the bank manager asked them to leave, it is implied that those who obliged will not be charged, with that implication, how is it legal to drag her back inside. That's a trap, there was no way for them to have been inside the bank (part of the protest or not) and not be arrested. You said she was being detained, isn't it more common practice to ask her to place her hands behind her back, instead of picking her up and dragging her inside?
To me, you just seem unwilling to admit that there is a small percentage of cops who are just plain assholes and get a kick out of asserting their authority. I'm sure you and the cops you work with are all honest, but do you really think all of you are? I notice you haven't made a peep in the thread where NYPD cops admitted to planting drugs on innocent people. I would think a cop, would have something to say there.
I have no doubt that some of the faces were in fact real. Talking to cops who were there, lots of them support the protest. I wouldn't be surprised if a handful of them joined the protest while they were off duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
@3:29Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
The branch manager is clearly stating. "no cameras inside the branch" @ 2:53 into the video. During the time when the Asian girl is talking. Noticed how when the branch manager was making this request, the others in the group were telling the Asian girl to "keep going" as if they had no care for the branch managers request. (the rest of the video is at the end of this post).Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Also take notice at the beginning of this video, that the woman with the red hair was actually inside the bank. :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
It wasn't cut out @3:29 another employee or security states "I kindly ask you, if you could do this outside and not inside the branch". Notice he Asian girl looks directly at the guy but continues to demonstrate.
They actually didn't drag her inside the bank if you look closely at the first video. They were subduing her because she was obstructing the officers who were trying to arrest the guy who is seen inside the bank recording, on the video I posted. Here's the rest of the footage from inside, after authorities arrived and take a close look at the end and see who is being dragged back inside the bank. Here's a hint: It's not the woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H13VkHE3UTQ
Well she didn't leave because if you notice in this video the woman is INSIDE the bank at the beginning of the footage. She's allowed to leave because she shows the officer her receipt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
IMO, if the bank has been kept afloat with tax payers money, it is public land.
No, the bailout was bullshit, that's part of what the protest is about. The government gave taxpayer money to private companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Oh, is that what was being said? If I didn't hear it in the video the first time, I'm sure lots of the protesters didn't hear it too. The ones who did were trespassing, the one's who didn't, or the ones who had business at the bank were not. The lady who was assaulted by the cops obviously had business there AND left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I never said she wasn't inside the bank, I knew she was in the bank, she had a receipt from her transaction. Okay, so she was allowed to leave, then arrested outside for "being inside?" You said she was obstructing the police officers, I once again call bullshit. Find the part of the clip where she was told to move out of the way. What I heard over and over again is "you were inside."
Um.... ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
I know that. I said since it is for all intents and purposes, funded by the taxpayers, i.e public, then as far as I'm concerned, their premises are public land.
Read ninja.
Also, Occupy Melbourne apparently overstayed their welcome. They were supposed to move out today, based on some bullshit law or something. They stayed and the riot police came in on horses and full riot gear, pepper sprayed a bunch of people and arrested a bunch more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRgxXgUh1Vg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThpT4JU8bpI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrRZBVqioeU
Fucken bullshit. Trespassing on public land.... how the fuck is that even possible?
Dude, now you're just being loony. It's very clear in the video what the woman says and the guy off camera says later. I heard it the first time, besides they are not obligated to tell them anything. The manager is no way at liberty whatsoever to let them know anything she's doing. She could have easily contacted the authorities without letting the protesters know a damn thing. They are clearly misguided and obviously had a lack of respect for employees at that establishment. There is no excuse whatsoever for these people to stage a demonstration on private property, disrupt a business, be boisterous and belligerent while disrupting business, cause a scene and put the employees, customers and non-customers at a security risk during this entire fiasco. So they were rightfully arrested, enough said.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
While I agree many police support the protests, none of those faces matched. They looked kind of similar but they were not at all the same person in any of the comparisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Yeah and I like how he said "See they've been told to cover up their ears!" LMFAO. Like ears are a 100% defining feature.... massive fail lol
However, it is quite strange that these guys are wearing hoodies and the temperature the 2nd week in NY was hovering between 65 and 68 degrees F. 18 - 20 C. Doesn't seem cold enough to cover ears especially for New Yorkers considering these temperatures is a heat wave for them.
LOL 18-20 is hot in NY? Jeez....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
It's about that here right now and I'm freezing my arse off! haha
we should rename this thread Occupy the world!
don't know if someone posted these pictures, don't really care, because we shouldn't forget that this movement is more than just america!
germany!
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6034/...4cdc41b5dd.jpg
spain!
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6099/...32c6747091.jpg
italy!
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6217/...76a0274df0.jpg
portugal!
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6215/...eaa3e6ec29.jpg
south korea!
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6043/...17a4b0cfbb.jpg
chile!
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6221/...34d5cf0d6e.jpg
....college interns...and many many more
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6048/...9e75ee9581.jpg
snow not give them money!
Occupy Tokyo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXlabXBYBtA
Their issues are mostly with government not being transparent regarding the true results of the nuclear facilities from the last earthquake.
LMAO Occupy Antarctica FTW!!!!
Hilarious.
did you see my post last page too juroara?
You'd THINK it would be a big deal in the Eurozone, what with all of the bankruptcies of entire nations and devalued Euro and whatnot... all relying on Germany to bail them out while their economies crumble. Occupy the world? Maybe it should be UnCorrupt the World?
So that's how this will end, police will drag protesters 1 by 1 till no more are left.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
That's not how it will end, but how it will begin.
Blowback is a bitch
I was kidding, you can't silence this protest this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
I was kidding, you can't silence this protest this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Yeah, exactly. They just started protesting again today, protesting against the police brutality committed against them yesterday! HA!Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
This is true. Our police actually had a better tactic to remove them than the American police did though lolQuote:
Originally Posted by LucidFlanders
American cops were basically trying to push everyone back and out of the way, while ours set up fences and just pulled people out one by one lol
Gotta admire that, in a sick way.
Holy Crap at Spain. There look like there are as many people there as in NYC. Where is that? Madrid?
It's not surprising that Europeans joined the cause. Goldman Sachs royally fucked their economy. The Greek government hired them to help them hide their debt which is a major player in the current European problem. Some european economies are still stable, but they don't have the resources to bail out the rest of them.
Tommo, wtf. It is good to see the protesters not stooping to the level of the police and fighting back, but how can the police do that while the media reports? In the USA the presence of a camera will usually stop police from brutalizing people except in rare instances like the tony bologna incident, both are usually met with pretty big backlashes (from the public, not their superiors.) The police force can be sued in Australia right? By the end of Occupy Wall Street, I wouldn't be surprised if the NYPD end up with 50 million in lawsuits. Does Australia have something similar to the ACLU (it's a powerful legal organization who take on civil rights cases like police brutality, usually for free)? Ours is very involved in the protests.
Speaking of which, this reminds me of Iceland. They got fucked really hard in the financial crisis. Their economy was booming and then they basically lost all their progress instantly. I was looking to see if they have an Occupy Iceland. I'm not sure, but I did find this. I suppose it fits the bill -Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Daily Kos: Occupy Iceland: Ex-PM may be indicted, and first lady joins protesters
I'm not sure if we have an ACLU. But basically if the Victorian (not sure about other states, but probably the same) police get hit with a lawsuit, they will just pay the accuser so they don't get wound up in legal battles. Especially in these cases since footage is everywhere, they'll end up paying out to so many people lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Video from Iceland
Pretty funny lol Throwing eggs and yoghurt at them :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWVd15gh-WU&feature=player_embedded
Spain didn't exactly join the cause; they've been protesting in large numbers for several months now.
That video is total garbage, not a single person he showed was the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I could see OWS having some elements which are fabricated, but this guy seems real.
I like the strategy of purposely getting arrested and demanding jury trials.
They don't even need to get arrested on purpose, seems 800 of the already falsely arrested people's lawyer's have demanded them. That is brilliant. The NYPD's misconduct is going to end up costing them 50 million, Chase's bribe was only 4.5 million. I love this tactic, it's basically a real life DDoS of the court system. The threat of the gridlock of the court system should make the NYPD be more selective and arrest only those who actually are committing crimes. Seeing that the movement has about a 75% approval rating in the city and the video cameras every five feet, most will be found not guilty.
I think we should take advantage of this and start protesting inside the banks. As long as we can keep the system too clogged up to prosecute, we need to start working for real change. Much like MLK did, we need to start breaking laws in solidarity that will change the system. If 1000 people occupied inside BoA headquarters and then demanded jury trials after being arrested, we could get something accomplished.
occupy dallas members were arrested for locking arms and having a sit in outside chase bank. these are the first arrests for occupy dallas
now people are attacking the website saying "you disrupted our lives by sitting outside of chase bank!"
.................................................. ...........oh no your life was disrupted and you don't why. frustrating isnt it?
That's the point. These people man... they don't have any idea what's going on do they?
This movement is pretty interesting. I don't think we have seen anything like it before. It's almost as if the blinders are starting to come off.
Has been for years, just more people are starting to wake up.Quote:
Originally Posted by knight31
I think the point is to clog up the court system WITHOUT anybody actually going to jail. You could actually get time for occupying the bank, given the stupid laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Stupid laws are meant to be broken.:cheeky:Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
"The only way to change bad laws are to break them."Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Martin Luther King Jr
These banks have defrauded the world and got rewarded with our tax dollars. I speak lightly when I say we should be occupying their buildings.
I stopped by Occupy London and talked to some people and got depressed at how practically noone seemed to know shit about anything besides having a naive wide eyed and green dislike of some vague thing called capitalism done by those silly old men in suits who arent humans
Unfortunately, that is necessary. Most people have no fucking idea about any of their beliefs. That's why people hated Socrates.
The unexamined life is not worth living.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
I felt the same way about occupy Toledo. But there was at least one intelligent person there. It wasn't really that bad but people there still didn't seem to know what they were there about. But I think these protests are still good. At least people are getting together, it's a start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carôusoul
I'd rather someone be apart of the movement but not know why they're there than someone insult the movement as a whole because they dont know why its there
As funny as these things are, I'm very afraid that it's going to help downplay the whole movement. Like Pastafarianism PRAISE HIS NOODLYNESS! does for other religions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I disagree, this is the generation of the internet and trolling. All movements have these kind of spoofs. It's why John Stewart has a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Dude, I hope you are not accusing me of an attempt to troll this thread because of my image, if so, you're clearly mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja
Anyway..
I was sent an email from a devildog who is a good friend of mine from the sandbox (back in the day). They've initiated a Occupy Marines movement that is receiving support from active personnel overseas. The numbers of vets are currently small, however, this should increase by the years end once active members arrive home.
I like the execution of this idea and it shows a great sense of appreciation for those in uniform actually doing their jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupyMarines
No, I'm just saying that the picture you posted is a meme, memes are most popular among the internet generation.
Yea, but you said internet and trolls. So I was just confirming that you were not intentionally trying to single me out as an attempt to troll.
:facepalm: He was responding to me. Coz I was saying that.... just read my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ne-yo
I agree with that tactic giving them coffee and food. It has been proven that giving someone a hot drink to hold will make them more kind and honest toward others.
Right, I understand that and I also understand that you two are very tight with one another. Ninja insinuated that the image was an attempt to troll. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trolling by posting the image. So since it's clear I'll leave it to rest now.
Occupy Wall Street is one giant troll...
FixedQuote:
Originally Posted by cmind
I remember seeing those stats from googles reports a couple of years ago. There is a section on Google where you can see where the requests have come from. I don't know why they comply with most of the requests for info, and only 27% of the requests for removal. Is there some law stating they have to?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
That would be hypocritical considering the U.S gov doesn't have to give out information under the FOIA. They want it all but don't want to give anything back.
I'm a little unsure about how to feel about Oakland. On one hand, they're saying the police only went ballistic after people were throwing bottles at them. If that's true, I'm a little sad because this whole thing seems to be predicated (to some) on the idea of this staying non-violent. After all the hard work they've done in NY to keep the image clean, the aggression strictly 1-directional... they even cleaned the shit out of the park when it became an issue. With this spreading into so many cities, it's kind of dumb to think everyone would follow the shining example, especially in Oakland, lol.
But on the other hand, fuck all that. The cops fractured a dude's skull, they're using flash-bangs, rubber bullets, etc,.... there's that clip where the one dude is knocked out cold on the street, possibly seriously injured, a crowd gathers around to help him, and the fucking cop SEES all this (the injured guy was right in front of the line of cops before the crowd came) and throws a gas canister right in the middle of the crowd he DAMN WELL KNOWS is there to render aid to an badly injured person... what the fuck!!
So all this is in response to some people allegedly throwing bottles, and in all likely hood everyone who was actually assaulted by the police were being peaceful, out exercising their first amendment rights (which is the only "permit" they should need). All this "collateral damage" should start to seem familiar to anyone who's been paying attention to Iraq. Except each individual protester doesn't represent a potential death threat.
I think this deserves to go here, possible I think it deserves a new thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoTokM2uCVU&feature=feedbul
This guy needs way more views too. I've been watching him for quite a while and he's never got more than a few thousand.
I watched the oakland videos the night that went down. In those videos I didn't see any violent protesters :/ .But I did hear a lot of "OUR STREET! OUR STREET!". Would you know where the claims of violent protesters are coming from?
I find it shocking that this is happening here in America, and even more shocking that the average American has no idea! Occupy needs online social media. I want to find videos of all the cities and share them. If we don't make ourselves aware of whats going on, who will?
I agree, they need one site, not sure if there is one, with all the police brutality videos. And just spread that as much as possible.
I've been posting things to my facebook wall, but only one person out of like 90 or something I have on there actually cares.
Puerta del Sol, Madrid, supposedly the exact center of the country. I remember being there when they won the world cup, when it was almost that crowded.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
:wtf: They have several. Youtube, twitter, Facebook. Almost all of the coverage of the Occupy movement has come from viral videos.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Anonymous attacked Oakland yesterday. Looks like they broke into their database, stole a bunch of contact info, then crashed their site. Here is some of the contact info that they stole oakland police #info - Pastebin.com and seems there is more to come. There is a $1000 reward for the name of the office who shot the veteran, probably not going to happen though, since in the video, I can't even tell who took the shot or who threw the bombs at the people who went to help him :(
Mass releasing private details of police offers... what a fucking stupid thing to do.
Look at the names. They are the senior officers, ie the ones who would have given the orders to arm the police with weapons to assault a peaceful demonstration. Everyone knows they will not be dealt with by their own police department. When public officials do wrong, and their superiors won't address it, it's up to the public to retaliate. The police should know that and remember that before shooting unarmed peaceful protesters with rubber bullets and flash bombing people who rush to help someone they hurt. They've been warned about that misconduct at these protests will be met with retaliation from the public.
They haven't released any info on the low level people who were just following orders, they released the info on the people who gave the orders. Seems fair to me. The only blue collar cop who needs to be exposed is the one who took the shot.
There is something wrong with you, ninja. You're one of the most negative people I've come across, and I genuinely feel sorry for you. You're? warped sense of justice is pathetic, and I'm shocked no one here has told you this.
I don't like/dislike you, I just don't understand why your constant need for attention has to come with such a vile/dirty aura attached to it. Get laid, bud. :)
Huh? I think that throwing flash bombs at people rushing to the aid of someone injured is not just, you find that warped? I know that the police investigation will be a joke and the worst that will happen to a cop is missing a few vacation days and think it's up to the tax payers they are supposed to be protecting to call them on it. I'm quiet sure the only people who would find that warped have something wrong with their sense of society.
I'm quiet the opposite of negative, come talk to us sometime and see. If you only interact with me in ED, then you only see a debating me, because that's what this forum is meant for. And I get laid plenty, kthnx :P
Amen to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Why is it fucking stupid Xei?
Also, I think the cop who did it will almost certainly be found. There are other video tapers there, so they should eventually upload their videos as well.
Come talk to us; what does come talk to us mean, who's us?Quote:
I'm quiet the opposite of negative, come talk to us sometime and see.
Post a link to something positive about you, in here. I'm interested.
add something to the conversation about occupy wallstreet and the movement or you are trolling
"Mayor Quan fenced off the entire lawn, only allowing Oakland protesters to occupy the concrete area in the park. Occupy Oakland thought the fence would look better if it was put up like this..."
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...70102973_n.jpg
:D
thats a nice fence
In other news, occupy denver is having a rough day
Yeah I heard Denver was having it rough.
I wish Anonymous could go after day trading and take down the stock network, and then the Occupiers could block the buildings and disrupt the physical trading.
Just because I'm a little shit-stirrer... Here's another "let them eat cake" story:
Top Foreclosure Firm Threw Homeless-Themed Halloween Bash
I had no idea the Occupy Wall Street movement is getting this big...it's exciting. Liberals vs Conservatives, I read this would happen
I got an e-mail of an Occupy protest happening downtown near my city on Saturday, in front of the main banks, and I'm thinking of going. Probably won't also be able to move my money to a different bank/credit union though.
Why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
∅
To quote Mr. Brando, "oh the horror". Or in this case, 'oh the hippies!'. Both being the same though.
You can't block off people from entering and exiting their own property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
What's wrong with day trading? Lets close casinos and lotteries while we're at it.
This whole fiasco is making less and less sense. Reminds me of the Children's Crusade.
Because day traders are actually an exclusive, secretive cult who want to see the world burn. Not just members of the public who invest their own money in what they think are worthwhile businesses.
No you're right, the rhetoric is often so fucking incoherent and inane that Omnis Dei even came out with the 'act first, think later' line to defend some of it.
Hey, nothing bad ever came from large mobs acting first and thinking later!Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Wrong, I'm defending people that prefer taking action when they don't understand what's going on rather than ridicule what they do not understand. We're at war for our economic future. Interrupting people from entering the buildings would free the stock market, holding it hostage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Are you aware of the massive doublethink you just spouted?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Here's a great presentation.. though not directly linked to OWS or any other movement, it seems very relevant in a fundamental way. Why should inequity just at face value be protested? Here's one answer:
Richard Wilkinson: How economic inequality harms societies | Video on TED.com
Root causes of said inequities are still left to be determined, but the video here addresses some of the Rush Limbaugh-type thinking that people should be free to make as much money as they possibly can by any means necessary, as well as the view that 'redistributionists' are only trying to grab more benefits for their own selfish reasons.
watQuote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
Must we always split hairs?
You seem to be implying that conservatives think it would be okay to make money by means of fraud or theft or some other criminal means. Please clarify your position.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
Seven people were arrested at OccupyDallas. The crime? They were protesting and took a step off the public sidewalk because they couldn't fit. So the cops snatched them up. The seventh however was simply arrested on the spot simply because he showed up. The cops, believing he is somehow the leader, spotted him, isolated him and took him away. Another man was pushed off a four foot rise and pepper sprayed. At least two people were smacked by batons.
The group literally didn't do anything except show up at 1pm like they promised at Bank of America. I was running ten minutes late, and by the time I got there everything already took place.
Two weeks ago, when our group was somewhere around 350 people, we marched in the streets. But after seeing our friends arrested just for having one foot outside the sidewalk, we knew the game has completely changed. We continued the protest to the rest of the local banks. But we strictly followed the street signs to tell us when to cross the street. No jaywalking else the cops would arrest us. Though as someone said, they could have sworn jaywalking was a fine and not an arrest...........
By far today was the largest group of cops I've seen yet, it felt like they outnumbered us. I've never been so intimidated by the cops before. And its ridiculous really, what do they think were gonna do? Two weeks ago I protested right next to cop cars, even right next to the cop driving. Today I was scared to be in arms reach or to leave the safety of the group.
That's just fucking depressing. We don't live in a "free country" or even a democracy at all, do we? When is some action gonna be taken about these cops? When/how will this crap change?Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Makes me wish I showed up downtown today.
I would assert this about anyone criticizing occupy wallstreet.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...1_1567977c.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Let me make things simple so you'll understand.
People have made money in this country through fraud and theft. OWS is about stopping these people. Is that clear enough?
"i dont understand"
So my sister just told me that the reason why Occupy isn't catching on like Egypt, is because we are protesting about too many things. According to NPR, it was a bad idea for Occupy members to protest concerning environmental issues.
Apparently all these different reasons, according to some, are confusing Americans. An Egyptian revolutionary even argued, that the occupy movement will be much stronger if we simplify our reasons for protesting to one reason. That we should focus and rally people on one problem - and only one problem.
Sis also argued we don't have numbers because we are not offering a solution. And that apparently you shouldn't protest over what you think is a crime against humanity unless you have a clearly written out resolution. Sis claims she understands the Occupy movement and that it is we who don't understand. Yet sis had never even heard of our number one slogan - We are the 99%. Neither did she know that we have already made demands.
But this is what I don't understand.
How are we not projecting that we have ONE problem?
Hasn't the occupy movement since day one named who the ONE problem is? The 1% right? That is why the slogan is we are the 99%, because we are fighting the greed of the 1%. That is the ONE problem. And its a problem creating a multitude of problems. From homes being illegally taken away, to crippling student debt, to a corrupt banking system, to regulators regulating themselves, which in turn creates an environmental problem. (FDA and EPA)
I don't understand how anyone can ask the Occupy movement to be fools and rally behind only one issue, as if only solving one issue will solve anything in this web of lies. People don't want to join us because its all so complicated? Tough. It is complicated. Its a fucked up system and its a complicated mess. Its not simple and its not easy. No one ever said it was.
To that Egyptian Revolutionary, are you going to tell me, that you opposed Mubarak - for one reason? And one reason only? I'm not Egyptian so I can be over stepping my voice, but last I remember people were fed up with Mubarak for a MULTITUDE of reasons.
And we in the Occupy movement recognize a multitude of problems created by merely the 1%. All of these different problems are not so different and they are all tied and interconnected. The environmental issues are tied back to corporate greed and corrupt government officials. Just as the economic issues are tied back to corporate greed and corrupt government officials. And guess what, ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES ARE TIED TO ECONOMIC ISSUES! Whether someone is out there for environmental or economic issues they both MUTUALLY understand they are fighting the SAME enemy.
So I don't understand..........................
WHAT IS NOT TO UNDERSTAND!!!
So please explain to me DV members who for some insane reason oppose occupy, why do you not understand how all of these problems are interconnected? What did you think, that the problems Americans face are - unrelated?
No, lets take this a step further.
Did you think the reason why Occupy is happening across the Globe - is for unrelated issues?
I think I need to restrict my "likes", lest I come across as putting the other posts I liked on the same level as yours juroara.
That really was great.
I do agree with your sister too. That is the reason it's not catching on so much, as well as most mainstream news stations.
People just aren't smart enough, or don't care enough. Probably both.
And I was listening to an Alan Watts talk (I think it was him, I wish I could find it right now to type it exactly right) recently and he said "This is why children don't care anymore, because there are so many problems: War, famine, disease, greed, corruption, environmental destruction, the a-bomb.... and any one of those problems taken alone is insurmountable".
I think that is why people just.... give up. And why people don't want to think about it when you're showing them everything at once. Even though it NEEDS to be done. Not everything is pleasant.
My position is unaffected, strengthened even, if you remove the line you highlighted. I'll retract it, but only in the context of this particular argument. I argued that economic inequality at face value (so, regardless of the causes of said inequality, legal or otherwise) is reason enough to take action. This at face value condemnation of economic inequality is supported by evidence presented in the video I linked. Have I been clarified?Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
Why is it bad for some people to have more money than others, given the assumption that you apparently agreed to, which is that they got that money by providing goods and services that others found valuable?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
Watch the TED video.. that question is exactly what it's about. One of the points demonstrated (with evidence) is that quality of life for both ends of the economic spectrum is higher when there's less difference between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
That's irrelevant to the scope of the presentation: that's what I keep getting at by saying at face value. "economic inequality at face value regardless of the causes of said inequality".Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
Dispute the arguments put forth in the presentation if you want but stick with what has actually been presented.
That's an assertion. And it's clearly a correlation/causation fallacy. Also, I think any notions of using force (which you seem to tacitly advocate) to "equalize" the distribution of wealth will both fail (who watches the watchers?) and make everyone less happy because of the nature of the solution, ie. violence. If you were trying to convince the rich to voluntarily give to charity, which some do, then I'd be on your side. But you clearly want to point guns at them and force them to give to charity. And not just any charity, YOUR charity.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
I'm waiting for an intelligent thought from you.
I will keep asking this until you answer: Is there anything wrong with some people being richer than others, assuming they got rich through voluntary trade interactions with other people?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
There is something wrong when the wealthiest people use tax refunds to get all their money back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
Ask as many times as you want, but I already answered that question. I answered it directly in my last post when I said 'here's what's wrong with it...watch this presentation'. Yes, there is something wrong with economic inequality, even if through voluntary trade interactions with other people. The problematic aspects are magnified by the degree of the inequality. I really can't tell if you've even watched the presentation yet because you are not addressing it's argument.
In fact there is a part where he compares Sweden to Japan, two countries with low margins between the wealth of the richest and the poorest... but Sweden uses redistributive tax programs, whereas in Japan, people simply make more equal earnings to begin with. The point is that it redistributive or not, it doesn't matter. Countries with low economic inequality have higher overall quality of living for everyone (so your accusing me of simply advocating "violent" redistribution is simplistic.) And it's not just a single correlation presented... he draws a whole range or correlations of many kinds ways of measuring living standards from a rich body of data. A single correlation does not imply causation but when enough of them are pulled together that corroborate each other, a picture starts to get painted.
...still working on that intelligent thought I apparently owe you, but I can't force such things.
The problem with your question is that it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. What you are asking is akin to me asking, "is there anything wrong with some people killing others, assuming the others were trying to kill them?" in regards to a Ted Bundy case, and using the answer to justify his actions. The answer might be yes, but it doesn't really prove anything because it doesn't apply (I realize the question itself is not similar but it's irrelevance is). Ignoring that, such a simple question is grossly limited in scope and does not adequately cover the specificities of the situation. What are you getting at here? No one here is mad because the 1% are richer than themselves, they are mad because of the way they acquired the wealth and how, through corruption backed by the government, they continually have the money they lose placed right back into their hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
What is wrong with getting rich off voluntary trade? The more profit, the more people you satisfy in voluntary exchanges. The more people you help that in some manner show by that very trade that their lives are now better. That is the whole point of trade. Giving up something you desire less for what you desire more. Improving your state of being or environment. Removing a felt unease. I just do not get this. You are mad at an institution that states that the more people you help, the better off you are. Is that not a just system? Is that not a system to promotes abundance? Would you not applaud a system that promotes the general welfare of the masses?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
On the topic of the correlation/causation fallacy, it does not matter if you continually increase the fallacy. Committing the fallacy more and more does not make the fallacy go away.
The question is very relevant because there is a section the OWS movement that believes that all 1%'ers are culpable and should be taxed into oblivion. So differentiating between those who achieved their revenue by helping others in voluntary exchanges and those who achieved their revenue through corporate welfarism/subsidies is a distinction worth pursuing. That is what cmind is trying to show and I think you start to pick up on it in your last sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by snoop
Protesters = haters:shadewink:
Again... that's irrelevant. I'm talking about the actual end state itself of wealth inequality. The line in my post "even if through voluntary trade interactions with other people" was a derivative of what I said to begin with, "regardless of cause", because cmind needed it spelled out for him. So... REGARDLESS OF CAUSE. In this argument I don't care if every single transaction that's taken place in the last century was abject robbery, or if every transaction was so honest and fair that god could come down and say, 'yep, I saw it all, and everything meets my holy righteous standards of weights and measures'. It doesn't matter, that's not what I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
So all correlations are useless? Are you saying that it's a fallacy to compile a large amount of blindly-selected data, look for trends, consider all possible interpretations, and then use the results to draw tentative conclusions? Because if you've seen the presentation and read my posts since I posted the TED link, I've suggested nothing more than that. I've asked cmind once and I'll ask you now... if you care to dispute the presentation itself, please do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
Just found where I heard it and typed up the correct quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
"A young person who is in the least bit thoughtful or sensitive today, sees no future.
Look at all the pile up of problems, any one of which taken alone would be appalling. There's population, famine, the bomb, pollution, destruction of the environment, deterioration of products…. you know…. we're basically eating plastic, wonder bread is undoubtedly plastic."
Glad to hear you picked a sane person.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Picked a sane person for what?
For listening to...
Who Alan Watts? I've always found him very insightful...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Yes, he is. Xei just has a little trouble with lateral thinking.
I don't know who he is, I just know that he thinks bread has deteriorated into plastic and that the current level of warfare isn't historically low.
One more time it must be repeated. All we want from the % is that they pay their fair share, not that they get taxed into Oblivion. Tax refunds enable them to make most of their money back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
And what a surprise Xei doesn't know what he's talking about...
You jelly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
This is such a typical Republican attitude, that somehow, no matter what, the rich in this country deserve to be rich and the poor deserve to be poor. As if everything works perfectly and everyone gets what they deserve. The fact is, there is no middle class anymore. The 1% are doing everything they can to make it impossible to move up, and keeping all the money to themselves, whether or not they earned it or worked at all for it (more likely stole through everyone else through fraud, tax cuts to the rich and bailouts). Most veterans and 9/11 firefighters are struggling to get by, that should tell you about who deserves to be poor/rich for their real work. It's a 1% brainwashing that they have earned what they have rightfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
Yes we are all shocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
I tried to think of rich people more famous than those two but couldn't.
Not all of them, obviously.
Well then you've contradicted yourself. You just made a blanket statement about 'the 1%' but then said it doesn't apply to arguably 2 of its most prominent members. So perhaps you want to clarify?
Okay, the people who screwed up the economy for their own selfish gain, like certain politicians, lobbyists, corporate bankers etc, who are all part of the 1% of wealthy elites.
ROFL. Classic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Then you've departed from what your compadres were saying. They say that it's inherently bad to be rich, even if you got that way totally legitimately. I would agree that corporations getting special privileges, regulations that favor big businesses, bailouts, etc. are bad. But it sounds like your solution to the problem of big government is bigger government. Am I wrong? For example, people say the government needs to "regulate" Wall Street. But even ignoring the fact that the financial sector is, in terms of number of regulations and regulators, the MOST regulated sector of the economy, what makes you think any new regulations won't be shaped to favor those same institutions?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
As long as there's power to be had, the rich will buy it. This is a fact, not a judgment. The only solution is to reduce the power the government has.
What the fuck are you on about?
What you're describing is exactly what we're trying to fight.
Why do you think those two ARE famous?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
Because they're not complete fucking dicks.
It's not like you picked a completely random 2 insanely rich people and they just happened to be pretty good guys.
cmind going off on a tangent based on nothing again.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
I don't think regulations would help at all. What needs to be done is the entire monetary system to change. So that it isn't exploitable in these extremes. There is NO FUCKING POINT, WHATSOEVER, of half the shit in our economy. It's just ridiculous when you read up about how it all works.
Inflation - ???? Why is this even a thing?
Interest - ???? Who thought this shit up?
Different countries have different strengths for their currency, even though they do the same amount of work for that money.
All these things are only there so certain people can exploit it. And I'm probably only scratching the surface, as I haven't learned everything there is to know about how ti all works.
What we need is an clear and obvious money system:
You work, you get money.
You keep that money, it doesn't change in value for no reason.
Your money is worth the same amount anywhere (even though some products may be cheaper in other countries, just due to shipping, demand etc.).
Xei has a point. How does "the 1%" not apply to these people? So, does this mean that you assume that every other insanely wealthy person is a complete fucking dick? Thus, this logic can apply in a situation like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
I'm some kid who make shoes in India for 3 cents an hour. So, I basically have no money. Now there's that guy from the Red Cross that helped me go to school so he's a good guy. But all other people who live in Western cultures are complete fucking dicks because they have more money than me. Thus, you are the "complete fucking dick" in this situation. :|
The regulators are regulating themselves, both in the financial industry, EPA and FDA. This makes our government institution bought out.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
They're not dicks because they have more money than me. They're dicks because of how they got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantiq
And no, not all. That's been established. A lot though.
Odd, I didn't see this at all in cmind's post. What I saw was him asking, albeit in a trollish manner (not surprising), if Omnis was jealous of their wealth by asking them to pay their "fair share."Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
What that "fair share" is, however, I don't know. I just hope he doesn't start quoting that crank Elizabeth Warren. The fact that he posted a video by Thom Hartmann, who is probably the most hilarious failure of intellect on the Earth, is a good indication that he like absolute crazies so who knows.
I really don't know how you manage to keep your derphertz so consistently high.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_...onaires_(2009)
Maybe they're famous because they are at the very top of the richest people in the world. But of course no, this is a biased sample specifically chosen to not be representative. And Bill Gates and Warren Buffet weren't ubiquitous household bywords for immense wealth until the Bill and Melinda Foundation was set up. Brilliant thinking.
Power is an interesting problem. Don't misinterpret me, I'm generally very anti-authority. But I don't see reducing government as reducing power. It just becomes that much easier to concentrate.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
Ah, I see your point. But do you truly believe that ONE guy is behind an entire corporate operation rather than a system of people and ideas put into place for the goals of making as much profit as possible? You should watch "The Corporation". It's an interesting film quite relevant to your arguments and interests. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
By lucky chance, the NWO conspiracists are actually correct that there is just one figure controlling recent world events, through the Freemasons. What they do not realise is that for archaic historical reasons the Freemasons have a very convoluted election procedure, and that this single figure is in fact a mentally retarded ostrich.
The world starts to make a lot more sense when you open your eyes to The Truth.
I actually doubt that half of the people responsible are in the "1%". It's mostly people in the top 30% who are making it possible for some of the 1% to do what they do. But even some of the 1% are doing good things.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
Yeah apparently the US federal government would do a better job of improving the world with Bill Gates' money than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by StonedApe
The good thing about this movement is that not everyone in it thinks that, that taxes are the solution. Though far too many do. Hopefully this can do something about corporations basically rigging elections through marketing.
No, not really. There needs to be checks and balances so that nobody gets too much power. Corporations want less and less government control so that they can do whatever they want, like eliminate minimum wage and benefits, which is definitely not good. Just an example of what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
Although politicians have gotten us into this mess by allowing wall street to have too much power, and giving corporations the right to vote. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like politicians are bought by lobbyists, banks and corporations, not actually voted on by the people. The media's bought and tries to feed America a bought view on which bought politicians to pretend to vote for...
Wouldn't that be, like, the ultimate power? Deciding who gets to have power?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
See and this is what I do not get. Libertarians are trying to establish a system in which certain behavior benefits as many as possible and you do not even care. You are mad that one person has 5 apples and another person has 1. You are mad that there is actual diversity, something inherent in nature itself. So...you are mad at the state of nature? That the 99% can not all be the top 1% of income earners?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
Well at the very least, I hope I do not see you going around saying "Libertarians are such greedy egoists, they only care about themselves" because here I am trying to show you a system embraced by libertarians that is a net positive for both parties and you could really careless about it.
In making a casual chain, yes. Correlations do not infer causation. It is a logical fallacy dating back to Greek civilization. If your link actually does such a thing (I haven't watched it because I am merely addressing the premise you espoused that correlation means causation), then they are incorrect also. It is a logical fallacy. It is not as if logical fallacies are validated by there being a mass of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
But it is not a fair share by its very existence of being a progressive tax. The more money you make the more you pay. How is that "fair?" If you were talking about a flat tax then you would have something but I think people not paying taxes is a step in the right direction. No one should be paying taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
A Progressive Tax System is simply a ladder between the top and the bottom and there's nothing wrong with it. The problem that has occurred is loopholes allowing refunds to unbalance the tax system effectively starting a war with the middle class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
....Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
?
I support the 1%. I really do.
...and you reply as if I had not just gone to excruciating lengths to say I'm not talking about causes of the income gap.
I'm simply isolating for effects of the income gap. "Regardless of cause" does not mean "cause is irrelevant", it just means it's been isolated, for a particular demonstration about effect. I'm surprised you can draw such conclusions about what I think from such an intentionally limited statement (actually not, you've done it before...) We might actually agree on a more than you are knee-jerk-guessing we do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
..which is why I said 'tentative conclusion'. Seriously if people would just read my words this would go a lot smoother. I'm studying primate behavior right now, and a progressively more and more sophisticated accumulation of corroborating corollaries are really all we have to go by to make any type of claim. Absolute causal claims are virtually non-existent in the social sciences (which includes economics and politics), as such we can't rely on them. That doesn't mean progress is at a stand-still. I understand the importance of all conclusions from correlation remaining open to re-examinable for any time a contradiction appears, even if it means modifying decades of progress (which happens in social science from time to time.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
for fucks sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
I have a feeling you're not trolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff777
Care to explain?
involuntarily, maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Fact: If you're family's income is over $60 000 USD a year, then you are within the top 10% wealthiest people in the world. Most people on DV I would expect, would fit into this category. How about we start working on solutions to global wealth inequality than try to "occupy wall street".
Just some Food For Thought. :|
I wonder what percentage of their earnings those who earn $60,000 give to foreign aid. As this small proportion of the population hold so much concentrated wealth, I imagine they are happy to give away 20, 30%..?
Ummmm.... source?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantiq
Also, you don't think this wealth inequality has something to do with the richest people?
Namely slave labour and therefore a need for people to be poor?
Stop making excuses and lame scapegoats. If only a small fraction of you top 10%ers paid your fair share, the world would be a far better place. But no, you just going on living in luxury as if you own everything in the world just because you forcibly displaced indigenous peoples and took their resources. You all sicken me.
http://www.globalrichlist.com/_images/chart.gif
I think it's high time the 90% united against these decadent Western capitalist scum.
Not yet. I want to become apart of these scum. http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...9907964925.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Xei
"I think it's high time the 90% united against these decadent Western capitalist scum."
I agree, but I don't think we can do it through laws or a forceful attitude, they will only fight back with a more ingrained stance. I think the only way these people will decide to use their money for serious projects devoted to making the whole of humanity a better place is if we convince them philosophically, or back them into a corner where most people will seriously see them as a repulsive and philosophically retarded minority. Our media, our culture, the average person's philosophy needs to take the fact we are a fleeting part of one whole seriously, as a priority of gratifying action, and not some naive hippy dream.
Too lazy to read through all the whining hippies' posts, got better things to do. Simple solution (to the hippies): if you don't like what the 1% is doing, become part of the 1% and try and change it from there. Not hard to do, just don't be lazy. It's like people who don't vote but complain about politics.
You love old data don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
There's 7 billion people now.
Also, I work part time now and still give money to charity.
Why would I want to be a millionaire who purchases votes undermining democracy?
Occupy members are not complaining that they aren't rich. No, thats not the issue. The issue is the lack of financial security and freedom, overwhelming institutionalized debt, and the lack of job opportunities that pay a living wage. This is why there is so much frustration at these greedy corporations and banks who buy out our politicians and hold back economic reform.
Laziness has nothing to do with it.
The economic model can NOT support everyone having a degree oriented career.
What happens when all the youth go to college - get a degree- and try to find work in their field? What happens when this model continues year after year after year? You have too many people graduating than there are available career orientated jobs. There is nothing a politician can do about this. Its the nature of the economy and higher education in a capitalistic model - to create an upper class. An upper class doesn't exist if there is no middle class or lower class.
Who will flip your burgers? Who will wait your tables? Who will be clerks at the register? Who will clean? Our economy would collapse if we lost these labor and unskilled work. We literally can not afford for everyone to be in the "upper class"
What you end up with instead is - are educated graduates who couldn't find work in their fields and end up in lower paying jobs that can't afford all their bills - including their education. How is this an issue of laziness? This is an issue of the American Dream gone wrong.
This is why we need a living wage - not a min. wage. I guarantee you, had we a living wage to begin with Occupy wouldn't exist.
So much of the frustration of occupiers stems from a LACK OF FINANCIAL SECURITY, coupled with the fact that America is ABUNDANT in profits. So why is there so much disparity? With the abundance of profit that America creates - no one should have to work more than 30 hours a week to have a modest American life. Instead, the power of the dollar decreases and the number of hours needed to support a living increases.
And now the number of hours to support a living has increased so much you need on average two incomes to support a living. Very few young adults can afford their own apartment these days. Most need roommates. I only point this out because this reality only increases as the years go by. If it continues you will need THREE incomes to support the same apartment.
These are three major sources of frustration for occupy members - which encompass all fields of work in the 99% from teenagers at mc donalds to lawyers
UNEMPLOYMENT: the number of unemployed is much larger than what the US admits to having, as not everyone who is unemployed is actually registered as unemployed. Unemployment is easily twice as high than what the statistics say it is. Many have simply given up because of underemployment
UNDEREMPLOYMENT: Many jobs refuse to offer full time hours so that they can deny benefits. Underemployment is also concerned with low wages and the large amount of educated graduates working at unskilled jobs that a teenager could have. Underemployment is on the rise
OVER-EMPLOYMENT: The flip side of underemployment is companies are consolidating by laying off their employees - and asking a single employee to do the work of two or more - demanding 60 to 80+ hours a week - demanding increased productivity - less time off - and usually all for the same SAME PAY.
The working class has been voicing for a living wage for years. Instead politicians give us the excuse they can't give it to us because corporations won't allow it. Corporations will just higher their prices and decrease the power of the dollar all over again. Economic reform is being held hostage by corporations and the politicians that give them service.
We need to get money out of politics - Occupy's number one goal - and have people be the voice and power behind the government as was originally intended by our constitution.
And tommo elevates the thread into untold levels of absolute inanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Seriously, that was the worst post I've ever read. Self-contradictory, utterly irrelevant, downright bizarre.
This is exactly what people don't see.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
I just looked around my class last year and thought "Does EVERYONE here really think they're gonna make it in this field?"
"There's 20 people in this class, there's probably not even enough jobs for these 20, and next year there's gonna be another 20 or 30".
Yet every single one of them wanted to get a job in that field. Because they didn't just look at the numbers.
Xei - Your posts aren't even mildly intelligent anymore. I have no interest in anything you say now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
In my sisters school they recognized the economy doesnt need thousands of new architects everywhere =/ (when most of the professors admit they teach becuase they themselves couldn't find work!)
So they solved the issue by having students compete to enter in their last year, where only a fixed amount can win entry. From the start, only 1/4 of the students were going to be given the opportunity to graduate. Which makes "economic" sense - except that it leaves the majority of students in financial debt with an education they couldn't finish.
It kinda makes me think of idiocracy where you have to win healthcare - win an education!
What on Earth was the point you were even trying to make? Your post is literally absolute nonsense, it's terrible. What did it have to do with the point I'm making if the data is a few years old? Do you think the global wealth distribution has undergone a dramatic shift in the last decade? Of course not, it's exactly the same situation you plank, except likely even more exaggerated. And you're on the side of the people who were complaining about inequitable wealth distribution in the first place. Incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
To juroara, why would you want to be another millionaire who purchases votes? I can see what you mean with your first statement. It would be absolutely terrible to be a millionaire and having a voice! I guess you're right, be poor and not heard!
I'm not even going to bother spending the time arguing the importance of hard work in achieving success.
The ironic thing is, Occupy, at least in Toronto, wants more political interaction in regards to "the problem". But wait, you said "There is nothing a politician can do about this". Am I missing something? Because all the smelly hippies downtown say the government can fix this, but you just said the government can't!
You're right, start handing out money to everyone. Start throwing around money we don't have. Question, where would this money to throw around come from?
I've read a lot of the "left-brain", "logical" jobs are being replaced by machines/automated or moving overseasQuote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Hopefully Pink is right and we're entering a conceptual age, this would create a boom in creative jobs like art, music, design, inventions, storytelling, etc. something a machine can't do or is difficult to outsource
Right-brain jobs are getting higher in demand because they tap into artistry, empathy, creativity and big-picture thinking. This provides value to employers. This provides value for customers Hiring managers want people who are intrinsically motivated, because they know that employees doing what they love are good at what they do.
Think about this, 95% of purchasing decisions come from the subconscious and we all know the subconscious deals with creativity, art, emotion, imagination, etc.
:holyshit: O.K there comrade! I should refer you to the 74 glorious poverty stricken years of the USSR, which started with that exact mind set in 1917.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
I think Xei was being sarcastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazydude007
I'd sure hope so. Hard to tell sarcasm, or even to think when as tired as I am.
hehe, I dunno. Maybe....Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic
On the other hand, most right brain jobs are being replaced by left brain ideas and people; following trends and obvious marketing strategies which aren't creative etc.
Since you've made a false assumption that I think the solution is to start handing out money - I have no reason to further this conversation with you. Please re-read my posts and try again.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazydude007
Please stop the propaganda. We are not trying to redistribute wealth. We are trying to end corruption that impedes our system from doing its job.
Not sure what relevance this has to the rest of the thread, but it must be pointed out that the USSR had vastly improved quality of life over the previous Russian Empire... In a few decades, the Soviet Union went from a third world nation of peasants to a superpower.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazydude007
Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaQuote:
Originally Posted by Spartiate
7.5 million peasants starved to death in a man made famine. That's far more than the Holocaust.
...and that is just the beginning of course; untold numbers of Europeans were sent to their deaths in slave labor or killed outright for siding with Germany; or more accurately, for repelling invaders. FDR's "uncle Joe" was much worse than any monarch.
I think only Mao was responsible for more deaths.
True, I think he holds the record. 80 million or so.
Although you could argue that number is still rising now. Since he is probably responsible for what it still happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Never
Also, I had never heard of Holodomor before. What the hell?
That's what happens when you only listen to the cultural marxists.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
There was also a famine in the first few years after the revolution when they tried to go without money entirely. After that, they decided to use a weird partial monetary system, which allowed them to advance economically enough to actually have some food. Congrats, Russia.
They eventually just started using global market prices. It allowed them to retain some semblance of an economy but otherwise it was pretty awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmind
There are many genocides/massacres throughout history that you will probably never hear about, even on the internet without specifically searching, as they are not politically advantageous to the establishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
In the west the Ukrainian genocide was denied by many in the mainstream; notably the Pulitzer winner Walter Duranty.
Right. Most on this website are apart of that top 10% like you said. The middle class has basically disappeared. Instead of raises, jobs are now taking away holiday bonuses , doing layoffs ( even TEMP services are doing layoffs ) or paycuts , more home foreclosures, there's more hiring freezes, the price of food has went up. Seems like their is only a rich class and a poor classQuote:
Originally Posted by Quantiq
Even if you did graduate college with a degree if you didn't find a job in the field you went to school for, your basically part of the poor class now because your stuck paying off student loans and depending on what your major was that could be anywhere from $30,000 to $120,000. On top of that they add interest to it. Working a $9 an hour job you could be paying this off until you die.
I believe this system needs to be done away with period cause it doesn't work. Away with paying taxes, away with using credit, away with paying off student loans, MORE with saving and buying with straight cash. Living within your means. When you don't have any payments, you have money to spend..money to save. This would probably make the death rate from street related diseases and the need for blood pressure and heart medication to go down even. It would also cause banks to shut-down because they make money from overdraft fees and interest rates. So i agree completely with the OWS protestors of taking your money out of the banks.
If you went to school and learned something and can't find a job in the field, work for yourself using that knowledge. You don't need government to survive, I know people with different trades and live off those trades. Also The internet has made it so a lot of things can be outsourced now, programming, art, design, repairs, etc.
This is the way to be self-sufficient without the government. I think people with money should invest money into or help fund small Indie businesses.
Progressive tax that differentiates by a person's income : Fair and goodQuote:
Originally Posted by Omnis Dei
Loopholes that allow for a difference in paying taxes: unfair and bad
^ This totally makes sense when you think about it.
What confuses you about that statement? I believe that no one should involuntarily pay for services that they might not need or want. If they want such services they can enter into agreement with the agency that is providing these services and voluntarily pay for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Does that clear up your confusion?
No. Thar's ridiculous. People don't want to pay for a lot of things, but we're ALL better off if they do.
Some people do not have foresight nor enough intelligence to see the bigger picture. So people who do, have to think for them, in a way.
Taxes are a good thing, most of the time. Obviously they can be used for bad things, like war. With healthcare for example, even though you might not need it right away, you will eventually.
Everyone does. Most people don't think about that though, so they wouldn't pay for that.
Then the entire healthcare system goes to shit and people who had enough intelligence get screwed over. Good system bro.
Yea I'm not talking about the causes of the income gap either persay. I mean I did say that there are people who do make money because they are providing a service for a mass of people and the people are paying for this service thus making the person rich but this is the cause for wealth accumulation, not a cause for the gap of income.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
Saying regardless of the cause is making the cause irrelevant in the overall theme. No matter what the cause is like saying "even if the cause is A, B or C, no matter which of these it is X is still true" If it does not matter if it is A B or C then the cause because irrelevant because in the end X is true none the less. That is why I can draw such conclusions, because you actually use words that insinuate meaning. Also if you will noticed, I put questions marks in my statement. The asking of questions in a non-rhetorical/sarcastic manner infers that I do not know the answer and those questions were not rhetorical...but maybe sardonic which is different then sarcastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
First you say I read too much into your words now you say I don't read into them enough. Honestly, which is it with you? Since you are having such trouble with casual chains then let me enlighten you and perhaps you can greater excel your work in primitive behavior. Speculating on causes is different then trying to prove correlation is causation. On the one you are, well, speculating. You are judging from a place in which total information is not achieved therefore disallowing you to make an affirmative casual chain. Now saying correlations equal causation is trying to establish an affirmative casual chain from a place of speculation. Also I do not understand this claim that since absolute casual chains are few..that means they can not be relied upon. That is not coherent and it does not follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
Yes I do not read your words yet you purposely cut off one of my sentences in a quote. Great stuff Scooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndieAnthias
"(I haven't watched it because I am merely addressing the premise you espoused that correlation means causation)"
He knows, he's saying that if we're all better off then people won't have a problem paying for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Wait... you mean politicians?? LOL.Quote:
Some people do not have foresight nor enough intelligence to see the bigger picture. So people who do, have to think for them, in a way.
Don't you think that saying 'you are too stupid to agree with me that this is a good idea so I'll just force you to pay for it' is a bit concerning?
If your idea is so good, convince whoever you're talking to, and then they'll pay for it.
If they don't agree, that's none of your business; go talk to somebody else.
And why have you tried to portray the intelligentsia as a benevolent and unified whole? People with intelligence can have vastly different opinions on what to do about something.
And why do you think people who vote are especially intelligent anyway?
There are so many problems with what you are saying...
Well who's "big picture?" Why should we allow say someone like you to tell us what is good for us? Why is theft justifiable if it is the government but not if it is a common thug? What you are basically espousing isQuote:
Originally Posted by tommo
I need my agents to steal from you because you do not know what is best for you and my agents do. In order to subsidize my agents in doing these good deeds for you, they are also required to steal from others.
Truely this is the great fiction that Bastiat was discussing when it comes to people trying to live at the expense of other people.
And yes the healthcare system is certainly failing because people are not stealing quickly enough from one another
Guess I was talking mostly post-Stalin :P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seroquel
People who paint the USSR as a joke are ignoring that it was once the most powerful nation in the world, and it didn't take hundreds of years to get there like the USA. I'm not saying that the USSR should in any way be a model of how to run a country, but elements of their approach were certainly effective.
Yeah, providing healthcare for people who can't afford thousands per year is so BAAAAAAD.... :whyohwhy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Laughing Man
All you have to do is look at US healthcare vs, any nation which has public healthcare. Then apply that to anything else 99.9% of people use.
You have no good argument. Just admit it.
It is best for the majority, if not every single person in that country. That is how I know my opinion is right. Not everything is subjective.
You didn't address a single thing he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
I would imagine he thinks providing healthcare is a very good thing, and thus would spend a lot of his own money on such a cause.
Also, your strawman fails to even be consistent because it implies that virtually everything people use should be provided by the state, yet you are not a communist. In fact it doesn't even make sense in the basic case, US healthcare is superior to the healthcare in many countries with public healthcare, this is obvious.
US healthcare is better? ok.... Tell that to the people who go bankrupt paying their bills.
Also, I agree with communism.
So you're saying look at US housing,
http://www.houseplans.net/uploads/pagesfiles/88.jpg
compare it to state, for example Soviet, housing,
http://mburgan.files.wordpress.com/2...et-housing.jpg
and thus conclude that people should not have the choice to decide what services they want to pay for?
I never made any false assumption. Your suggesting increasing the minimum wage. Or, sorry, to keep to your original wording, getting rid of the minimum wage and putting a minimum on wage 'suitable for living'. Please do, cease conversation with me here, and preferably on this topic with anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
that picture kinda reminds me of downtown
Basic amenities should not be a possible argument for minimum wage.
The very poorest people have housing of the same quality as the standard in Soviet Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
Solution to this problem: give everybody housing of the same quality as the standard in Soviet Russia.
I like your style.
